There may be plans to bring this in as a Buick in the near future. Beware though the sales of the Fiat 500 have not lived up to what was expected long term and the dealers are not happy. This could affect this Adam if the little cars do not sell. The IQ at Toyota is also going away.
GM said they had not plans but that means little as they have said the same on the Colorado and a few other models too. Keep in mind anything Pontiac could have had will be in the Chevy and Buick line up at some point. They are far from fully rebuilding yet and we have many new models to come.
I've had hope for it as a Buick too, and hope they come through with it.
I kinda have to laugh at all the 'TRUE PONTIAC' statements... what makes a true Pontiac? The engine? Wait, before the corporate platforms there were BOP platforms... the G5 was just a Cobalt, the G6 was just a Malibu... blah blah blah...
The 70-80s Grand Prix was just a Monte Carlo, the old Parisienne was just an old Impala, the Astre was a Chevy Vega, by the 60s all of the cars in Pontiac's line up were on letter body platforms... honestly, the 2.5L Fiero was more Pontiac than a Firebird.
You want to talk about a division destroyed by outside forces, look at Saturn. That division was dead the moment they introduced the Vue and Ion, the L-series was at least palatable, if not reliable, due to it's European origin and it wasn't available elsewhere in the US...
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 10-29-2013).]
I kinda have to laugh at all the 'TRUE PONTIAC' statements... what makes a true Pontiac? The engine? Wait, before the corporate platforms there were BOP platforms... the G5 was just a Cobalt, the G6 was just a Malibu... blah blah blah...
The 70-80s Grand Prix was just a Monte Carlo, the old Parisienne was just an old Impala, the Astre was a Chevy Vega, by the 60s all of the cars in Pontiac's line up were on letter body platforms... honestly, the 2.5L Fiero was more Pontiac than a Firebird.
You want to talk about a division destroyed by outside forces, look at Saturn. That division was dead the moment they introduced the Vue and Ion, the L-series was at least palatable, if not reliable, due to it's European origin and it wasn't available elsewhere in the US...
That is just it as the die hard Pontiac fans generally stop at 1979 with the last Pontiac 400 in the Trans Am.
There were two things that made Pontiac stand out from Chevy. The one was some advanced items that Chevy did not offer like Aluminum 8 lug drums and more advanced suspension tuning like on the 1967 Firebirds as while they may have been on a F body platform with the Camaro they were a inch lower an had their own sway bars and traction aids that Chevy never had.
The real heart and soul was the engine as it has it's own flavor and so much more torque than most Chevy engines. The Tri Powers were cool and even the inline 6 used OHC technology that Chevy never saw till later. Pontiac was for years one step ahead of Chevy in many things.
But in time they ended up just a Chevy with plastic cladding and red dash lights.
Again the 2.5 Fiero was the last true all Pontiac Pontiac. Find another Pontiac that had as much Pontiac only DNA.
Originally posted by hyperv6: Again the 2.5 Fiero was the last true all Pontiac Pontiac. Find another Pontiac that had as much Pontiac only DNA.
No offense intended but the only things Pontiac in a Fiero are the body lines and the Duke, as the front of the chassis was pure Chevy Chevette, and the rear chassis was pure Chevy Citation. And when the V6 option became available that was a Chevy design as well. Blame the bean counters but the Fiero was a GM parts bin raider in everything but it's body design
Originally posted by hyperv6: There were two things that made Pontiac stand out from Chevy. The one was some advanced items that Chevy did not offer like Aluminum 8 lug drums and more advanced suspension tuning like on the 1967 Firebirds as while they may have been on a F body platform with the Camaro they were a inch lower an had their own sway bars and traction aids that Chevy never had.
But in time they ended up just a Chevy with plastic cladding and red dash lights.
But even the rebodied/rebadged Chevys were still better as Pontiacs. They were generally better optioned cars. Pontiac was to Chevy cars what GMC is to Chevy trucks. Even the re-blanded ones were better, even if they had bland names like G5/G6.
Pontiac is gone though, and it's going to stay gone, unless someone puts up a hell of a lot of cash to buy the rights from GM.
But even the rebodied/rebadged Chevys were still better as Pontiacs. They were generally better optioned cars. Pontiac was to Chevy cars what GMC is to Chevy trucks. Even the re-blanded ones were better, even if they had bland names like G5/G6.
Pontiac is gone though, and it's going to stay gone, unless someone puts up a hell of a lot of cash to buy the rights from GM.
I agree that I like the Pontiac styled Chevy better in many cases but not all.
I also agree that Pontiac is gone and will remain gone But no one will buy them for two reasons. One GM will not sell the brand and two who in their right mind would buy them. If you were to start a new company it would be cheaper and easier to start with a fresh name and image vs. a tarnished and damaged image.
The truth is anything of value at Pontiac will live on. The G8 is now back and watch for the Alpha that was claimed for Holden and Pontiac to show up either as a Chevy or Buick GN or both on our shores. The Alpha will replace the Zeta at some point not to far off.
No offense intended but the only things Pontiac in a Fiero are the body lines and the Duke, as the front of the chassis was pure Chevy Chevette, and the rear chassis was pure Chevy Citation. And when the V6 option became available that was a Chevy design as well. Blame the bean counters but the Fiero was a GM parts bin raider in everything but it's body design
Now do not get too silly here. None of these parts will directly bolt on and that is about as good as a dedicated model as you are going to get today.
Hell you can get really silly if you want as My HHR has T Map sensors from a Alfa Romeo and splash shield retainers from a Corvette but it makes it neither a Italian car or a Corvette.
If you would go back even the most historical and unique Pontiacs shared a little DNA with other brands. Even cars like the Early Tempest with the rope drive shaft and rear transaxle has a lot of DNA from the Corvair but Pontiac took things to the next level engineering wise. That was not true in the products post Fiero in the Pontiac line.
You can get in a pissing match about nuts and bolts but the over all engineering and their engines set Pontiac apart and once that was gone the cars were poor badge engineering. At least the Holden based cars gave them a model not shared with another North American GM product.
If Bob Lutz had been there 10 years sooner he may have been able to save them. He came too late and was given no funds but still gave it a hell of a try. Pontiac was not making money and would not make money for a good while. To be fully honest if it were not for China I do not expect we would have Buick today either.
Originally posted by hyperv6: I also agree that Pontiac is gone and will remain gone But no one will buy them for two reasons. One GM will not sell the brand and two who in their right mind would buy them. If you were to start a new company it would be cheaper and easier to start with a fresh name and image vs. a tarnished and damaged image.
The Firebird, Trans Am, GTO, and Judge names are all already being licensed to a company making conversion kits on existing Chevy platforms. GM will certainly sell it off, if they think the sale price will be greater than what they're going to get over the next several years from licensing. It's a simple matter of profit. If they're not making any money on licensing, but spending money to keep trademarks/etc… then they have every reason to sell. But like I said, it's going to take a lot of money to just buy.
It might seem tarnished and damaged, due to the closure and the poor marketing of bland vehicle names, but if someone was to bring back the real Pontiac spirit with cars that carry the "We drive excitement" mentality, then it's certainly a feasible purchase. And the company building the Firebird and GTO conversions on the new platforms, is certainly pushing the spirit and message in their conversions. They're expensive conversions, but having seen one of the TAs in person, it looks exactly what I'd want a comeback TA to look like. If the 5th gen Camaro had come out in 2007/2008, with a Firebird in the Pontiac fleet that had the right options, and a different tune than the Chevys, it could well have been a very different story in the bailout. But it didn't happen that way.
Now do not get too silly here. None of these parts will directly bolt on and that is about as good as a dedicated model as you are going to get today.
Hell you can get really silly if you want as My HHR has T Map sensors from a Alfa Romeo and splash shield retainers from a Corvette but it makes it neither a Italian car or a Corvette.
Yeah, I think I missed the memo where the Fiero control arms, struts, shocks actually interchanged with the Citation and Chevette.
Although the ball joints and tierod ends all interchange with almost every GM car from that era...
I still laugh that the Rendezvous was a success for Buick and the Aztek a nail in Pontiac's coffin. It was the same stupid ugly machine. The Buick did have chrome though...
Yeah, I think I missed the memo where the Fiero control arms, struts, shocks actually interchanged with the Citation and Chevette.
Although the ball joints and tierod ends all interchange with almost every GM car from that era...
I still laugh that the Rendezvous was a success for Buick and the Aztek a nail in Pontiac's coffin. It was the same stupid ugly machine. The Buick did have chrome though...
Buick kept them for 2 more years I believe. Funny, but you see more Aztek-like crossovers out there, now. Oh well, they can haul a lot more than most vehicles their size (maybe except for a few mini-vans). 170K on my Aztek... the problem was crappy GM parts (3400 intake gaskets, tranny problems, and wheel bearings). Generic gm parts. Style, well that is subjective, but Pontiac didn't have a plan for upgrading the Aztek/Vous, so it was left to die.
Buick kept them for 2 more years I believe. Funny, but you see more Aztek-like crossovers out there, now. Oh well, they can haul a lot more than most vehicles their size (maybe except for a few mini-vans). 170K on my Aztek... the problem was crappy GM parts (3400 intake gaskets, tranny problems, and wheel bearings). Generic gm parts. Style, well that is subjective, but Pontiac didn't have a plan for upgrading the Aztek/Vous, so it was left to die.
Yeah... I have a 2006 Saturn Relay minivan... same underpinnings.
3500(LX9) + 2700lb. Fiero = Wwwwwhhheeee!!!
3500(LX9) + 4500lb. Relay = WWWWWTF GM!?
This thing, but with the alloy wheels and roof rack... no AWD but the same awesome beige paint...
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 10-30-2013).]
The Firebird, Trans Am, GTO, and Judge names are all already being licensed to a company making conversion kits on existing Chevy platforms. GM will certainly sell it off, if they think the sale price will be greater than what they're going to get over the next several years from licensing. It's a simple matter of profit. If they're not making any money on licensing, but spending money to keep trademarks/etc… then they have every reason to sell. But like I said, it's going to take a lot of money to just buy.
It might seem tarnished and damaged, due to the closure and the poor marketing of bland vehicle names, but if someone was to bring back the real Pontiac spirit with cars that carry the "We drive excitement" mentality, then it's certainly a feasible purchase. And the company building the Firebird and GTO conversions on the new platforms, is certainly pushing the spirit and message in their conversions. They're expensive conversions, but having seen one of the TAs in person, it looks exactly what I'd want a comeback TA to look like. If the 5th gen Camaro had come out in 2007/2008, with a Firebird in the Pontiac fleet that had the right options, and a different tune than the Chevys, it could well have been a very different story in the bailout. But it didn't happen that way.
GM also has licensed and sold the rights to the Corvair, Fiero and Aztec names but they are not going to sell any of them off. GM like every other automaker license the names to control their use, to protect all names should they ever be deemed to be needed again, for added income. It is not too expensive to keep a trademark but it is expensive to take some one to court to fight them if you did not retain the rights. Also Automakers have over 800,000 names registered and once registered they seldom give them up as it can cost tens of thousands of dollars and months to gain the rights to any name.
First off GM does not sell divisions or names. They had discussed this during the financial issues and it was vetoed as they do not do this. If it ever happens then GM is shut down and liquidating. Even then a real viable automaker would not pick it up due to the fact many are already cutting names they already hold like Plymouth and Mercury.
As for the Camarobirds they are pathetic. Really check into this and see of all the ones offered how many they really have sold. Also note the price as they are more expensive in many cases than a ZL1 Camaro and you don't get the Supercharges GM engine. These are much like the conversion F body convertibles of the 80's that were over priced and sold in few numbers and will just be a foot note in the future.
I have seen many of these after market Camarobirds and they are not all that great and to be honest even at the largest Pontiac show in the world the Tri Power Nationals they generally get panned by the real Pontiac hobbyist. Most of us look at them and see we can spend $20,000 less and get a really clean show quality real Trans Am with a real Pontiac engine that will continue to grow in value. Why have a fake when you can own the real thing?
I would recommend looking at Oldsmobile as they were as strong and even stronger than Pontiac for many years. Today they are a division that many present day car buyers seldom recall or even care about. Pontiac is on this path. If they had too little support to keep them profitable where is the sense in bringing them back.
The added cost of development, marketing and production would take a significant number of cars to make it profitable today. Also where would it fit in globally. Is there any global market that needs or even is crying out for a Pontiac outside the United States? Holden is already joined with Chevy and Buick is already joined with Opel. Cadillac as it launches globally will have a price point to support itself globally.
Sorry but even the best and most loyal Like Uncle Bob could not provide a business case to bring back Pontiac.
That is key when bringing any model to market is the business case that has to be approved for any model. At this point even I a die hard Pontiac fan can not come up with anything legitimate to offer a Pontiac or a path to profitability that would justify it. Adding a car like a Firebird would only rob sales from the Camaro. We are just now getting the Camaro from a plant in Canada where it has to sell so many cars to be viable to being on the Alpha platform and on the Cadillac production line to give them the ability to sell what ever the take rate is. This is going to help the car live on as well get better investment as it is based on a better funded Cadillac. Just look at the Impala on how much better it is since it received much of the investment of refinement that went into the sister XTS sedan.
When you have cars that take models that take Billions of dollars of investment you have to make it count anymore. 5 versions of the same car no longer work and GM is working hard to try to diversify more of their car models. It will take time but not duplication similar models in the same segment is the most effect first step.
I have people I know and have worked with from GM and they have given me a lot of insight into what all has to go into a model and division. I too used to think this is a cool idea they should do it. But when you commit billions of dollars you can not be wrong as one of two of these mistakes can either kill the company or damage the brand. Just look at the damage the Aztek did to the Pontiac brand and that was just one model.
Yeah, I think I missed the memo where the Fiero control arms, struts, shocks actually interchanged with the Citation and Chevette.
Although the ball joints and tierod ends all interchange with almost every GM car from that era...
I still laugh that the Rendezvous was a success for Buick and the Aztek a nail in Pontiac's coffin. It was the same stupid ugly machine. The Buick did have chrome though...
Styling can kill any car and the Aztek was just not a car Pontiac needed. A lot of infighting inside GM hurt the car as much as the styling too.
I saw Bob Lutz walk up to one at the SEMA show that had a custom nose on it that really did look good. He looked at the suits with him as asked why could we not do something like this?
The sad thing is the Aztek would have made a better Chevy or Saturn and with a little styling work it could have been a very good car. The Buick was an average vehicle but the styling was more appealing. There was a segment for these cars and today the Nox and Terrain have already sold over a million units. But they are both very good vehicles that really connected with people not only in content but styling. With the two being the same Vehicle GM took the extra step to make them look very different. As time goes on GMC will continue this move away from Chevy in styling and options.
Like I have said this is a work in progress and as time goes the three auto division will take on their own look and price range as to not step on each others markets. GM and most other companies just can not support 5-6 divisions anymore in the auto segment.
I just think it was a shame they did not make a Hummer a GMC from the start. Bob Lutz said that is one of his greatest mistakes as they could have better controlled the product and if they needed to kill a model they did not have to spend all the money to shut a whole division down. Today I would to still see GMC get a Wrangler like model. Hummer had looked at it and I think GMC could pull it off.
Oldmobile & Pontiac were not selling,this is the reason ,they are gone ,when I first join the forum I had some post about Olds going under & then Pontiac.,,Many americans will NEVER buy an American car . I realise the auto workers union built millions of bad defective cars & made people hate USA cars ! at one time the chevy V8 was was unreliable because of poor assembly if you own a Honda,Toyota,Nissan or other jap made cars you are directly responsible for Pontiac going under,yes YOU !! The majority of My red bar comes from post about my japanese cars ,only a traitor to America buys a Japanese car ,, I still celebrate all jap car owners gathering at Mt FUJI & never comming back to America I still HOPE for the rapture ,the lifting of all traitorus Japanese car owners to Mt Fuji ..all the people who sold out there country for a Z car or Zion,can discuss what patriots they are on the sacred ugly mountain..I lived on the Mt Fuji when I was in the Marines,not so bad America has been deminish by the black caucus generated sub prime loan Fiasco & the traitorus buffoons who buy foreign car, I do not care where your Honda was made Many Americans do not like American products, they prefer cheaper foreign products ,or one with good reputation people hate to hear this. The Auto manufacturing & Auto repair & parts & Housing industry are the back bone of America & the low information citizens just do not give a flying Obumbles, the low info buffoons will still hate me ,but about another 10 % have figured out I am not crazy & something is wrong wait till you do not have a job & can not get a job now get out there & buy that japan car ,you know you want it Just buying 100% American products would turn every thing around ,even the hateamerica buffoon Obumbles would look good
Originally posted by uhlanstan: ...but about another 10 % have figured out I am not crazy
The craziest ones always have to proclaim that they are not crazy. Stan I cannot say that I have ever read a posting by you that did not sound crazy. For example your recent post about driving your Fiero with your girlfriend and her dog in your trunk. It would be one thing to make a joke like that amongst your own inner circle, but to post something like that on a public forum does not lend a lot of support to any argument that you are mentally sound.
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan: ...& something is wrong
It is easy to say "buy american", but in reality, we wouldn't have half of the products we have, without "foreign" competition. Americans need to be challenged. Just look at the cars from the 70s and early 80s. American companies couldn't react quickly to produce smaller, efficient vehicles (while maintaining quality). It is good to look at the competition and see what you can learn from them, and how you can improve your own process. If you don't do this, "you" will become obsolete.
BTW, imports didn't kill Pontiac and Olds... the quality, style, and price did them in
Ask anyone they’ll tell you, I love PONTIAC. I bleed Pontiac blue, but there is a big difference between Pontiacs of old and Pontiacs of late. I agree it sucks that GM dropped Pontiac, and I don't really care why they did it. And to be honest, we (the public) will never really know. Sure Bob can tell us his side of the story, and if he Gov't does not provide any facts we will only tell his side of the story. But, is it 100% accurate or just "how he wants us to remember it". Again, who cares?
Best way to discuss this is with the facts, and the facts are that GM had too many of the same cars for sale. From a business sense, dropping Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Hummer, (Oldsmobile) made for good business. I may not like it, but it’s true.
At one time I had three Pontiacs in my driveway. I had a 2003 Pontiac Vibe GT (Toyota), a 2005 Pontiac GTO (Holden) and my 1988 Pontiac Fiero. The only "real" Pontiac was the 88. Do I (did I) love the Vibe/GTO any less, NO. They were PONTIACs and I was (am) proud to own and drive them.
(and while you may not care for the looks, the GTO is still the best driving car I have owned, and I have owned a lot of cars in the last 35 years)
Well as Paul Harvey used to say and here's the rest of the story.
Here is a story in Forbes Nov 18 issue about Jay Alix the architect of the GM bankruptcy. Jay is a financial wiz and found a way for GM to get through the bankruptcy fast to limit the damage. He wanted to prepackage the whole thing before they went to the government. The death of the divisions were done at the top of GM and based on this from Jay.
"Over the next weeks I worked closely with Bienenstock, assistant general counsel Mike Millikin, Al Koch of AlixPartners and GM senior vice president John Smith on the NewCo plan. We huddled dozens of times with Wagoner and Henderson to work out which brands GM would ultimately have to give up (Hummer, Saturn, Saab and Pontiac) and which ones it would keep (Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick). Informed debate and deep analysis of structural costs led to decisions about projects, factories, brands and countries".
The killing of the divisions were bases purely business criteria as they should have been in the case of trying to save GM. Even those on the Titanic who had a valuables in the safe left them behind once the ship started going down and with GM it was matter of survival not just through the bankruptcy but also through the next 10 years as they rebuild their products.
I note too that he also gives a nod to Rick and Fitz on the many things they did prior to the chapter 11. The changes they made have had a profound effect on GM as it has been rebuilding. The investment they made in China has helped advance the profits and the improvement in products has really taken hold at GM with the people they put in the new positions under the direction of Lutz. Bob let the people there do what they could do and not made them wait for someone to tell them to fix an issue.
For those not familiar with the GM Bankruptcy the story here gives a simplified explanation of what they did with splitting GM into two companies. One was New GM and one was Old GM. The things they wanted to keep they sent to new GM and the things they needed to lose like old plants and debts went to old GM and were liquidated.
I have followed how they did this but Jay give a little more detail. He is a author too so I hope he writes a book on this to set the story straight.
To be fair to Bob it is very possible he was never in on theses plans as this was mostly all the financial guys. It would have been easy for him to thing the plan came from Rattner and not GM.
It all came down to dollars and sense. It was the fact these division were all losing money and would have taken a lot of investment to fix at a time GM needed to take a step back and just worry about their core products. Goodyear Tire also went through the same thing when their stock was too low and a cooperate raider tried to buy them out. They had to sell and close many division and focus back on just making tires. They had diversified into oil pipelines, aerospace and many other areas that had nothing to do with tires or rubber.
Bob in his book Icons and Idiots points out that Rick has some faults but really was a good leader and did many things at GM that did help them prior to the bail out. He never really get the credit for what he did to salvage the things from the sins of those before him.
Any ways what is in the story is accurate on what happened as it had been reported before but Jay adds more details that were not released on who said and did what.
Originally posted by hyperv6: If that damn last Chinese emperor had just owned a Pontiac and not a Buick we would be seeing people complain about Buick being gone.
It was the Emperors fault and not the one in DC this time. LOL!
Pretty sure that the Pontiacs and Buicks from the 40s has nothing to do with it. Buick being popular in China is probably more a result of the Triad, than the last Emperor, or the communist government that exists now.
Pretty sure that the Pontiacs and Buicks from the 40s has nothing to do with it. Buick being popular in China is probably more a result of the Triad, than the last Emperor, or the communist government that exists now.
Pǔyí, the last emperor of China, owned a Buick. But you also have to consider so did Sun Yat-sen, China’s first provisional president. As did Zhou Enlai, the first premier of the People’s Republic of China. Or that one in five vehicles in China before World War II was a Buick. Whatever the reason, Buick is revered in China today. Keep in mind that Buick was one of the most popular cars back when last a private citizen could own a car. Today owning a car in China is a new privilege and the public is picking up where they left off. There is homage to history and status here and that is what they find value in.
Ok now Buicks were already a legend in China pre WWII but add to this that today the kinds of products are popular with the upscale buyers in China. They love the Lacrosse as it has a large rear seat. Note that most people buying in this class and higher do not drive and are driven and the back seat space is important. Also the minivans Buicks offer in China are prized as they are the choice for family outings.
The reality is Buick was a major player in China years ago and was the choice of the folks in power royalty or even Commie. You must observe that the Chinese as with most Asian cultures they take hold of their past and history and hold it high in regard. While Buick may have been absent from China it never lost it's prized image from when they were there years ago.
You can not look at this as an American or a European as we think differently. It is not just a different country but it is a different culture and different way of thinking on their part.
All I know is the money coming in from China is not only helping GM but is making a small dent in the deficient of the money we send over there.
The China market is one that if a Automaker in not involved they run the risk of failing as it is that big. On the other hand the bad part is the automakers can only build cars in China if they work with a Chinese auto making partner. The split is usually 49-51 in Chinas favor. Also any car sold there has to share intellectual property with the Chinese government. This is why GM refuses to sell the Volt there as well as any other advanced tech.
There is a whole lot more to this but you can get the idea. It really is one of those things for many American companies can't live with them can survive with out them.
But in the end the Chinese loved Buicks back in the 30's and 40's and still hold them in high regard today. A lot has to do with who owned them back then and some has to do that they have product that fits the upper class lifestyles well.
