Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat
  Gen V all aluminum 90° pushrod V6 & OEM trans-axle rated to 443 ft·lb (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Gen V all aluminum 90° pushrod V6 & OEM trans-axle rated to 443 ft·lb by tb30570
Started on: 10-03-2013 05:51 PM
Replies: 61 (2547 views)
Last post by: dobey on 12-17-2015 11:03 AM
Silvertown
Member
Posts: 440
From: Las vegas
Registered: Sep 2015


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

User Banned

Report this Post09-19-2015 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SilvertownClick Here to Email SilvertownSend a Private Message to SilvertownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


It really doesn't take all that much to beat an SBC. They can be great engines. But they can also be pretty bad engines. Swapping a 3.4 pushrod engine from the 4th gen F-body, with a little port and intake work, cam, decent exhaust, and a tune, will give you a Fiero that will run circles around a whole decade's worth of Corvettes. Go instead for a Series II or III 3800 SC, and you'll be blowing the doors off a whole lot more.

All it takes is area under the curve versus weight and aero. A stock Fiero has the weight advantage in a lot of cases, and sometimes an aero advantage, but definitely lacks in the area under the curve for power.


I was referring to all things being equal as in ford vs chevy. It takes a lot more money to put the ford into the same class as a SBC as far as mods go. I've seen it time and time again. Blew the doors off a 66 mustang 2+2 in a monte carlo and the weight difference is huge.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-19-2015 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tb30570:
you can make your own minus the VVT

http://www.taperformance.co...il.asp?prod=TA_V3800


I'm pretty sure that TA Performance block is meant as a replacement for the older longitudinal 3.8 as you'd find in the 80s Regals, and it doesn't have the provision for a balance shaft and such, for the 3800. It also doesn't have the metric FWD bell pattern like the 3800s do.

Doesn't get you the VVT or aluminum heads either. Just an aluminum block.
IP: Logged
tb30570
Member
Posts: 22
From: North Dakota
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2015 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tb30570Send a Private Message to tb30570Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


We're not talking about drag racing. For a 500+ HP N/A pure drag racing motor, a BBC is probably going to be a better choice than an SBC, too. These days though, it's much easier to build a high HP engine to use for drag racing, that will be drivable on the street too, using a Gen IV 4.8/5.3 truck motor, throwing a set of big injectors and fuel rails on it, a set of extremely high energy coil packs and plug wires, good plugs, a turbo with a boost controller, and a decent tune. A mild mannered 300 HP for the street can easily turned into 1000 HP for the track. Doing the same with an old SBC is going to cost a lot more, and be less reliable.


I have a boosted ls street car that runs 11.4. I didn't have to mess with the coils or the fuel rails. Just colder plugs, injectors and a boost-a-pump. Still gets close to 30mpg on the highway. For most guys I see at the drag track though, sbc or bbc is way more popular than the ls.

[This message has been edited by tb30570 (edited 09-19-2015).]

IP: Logged
tb30570
Member
Posts: 22
From: North Dakota
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-19-2015 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tb30570Send a Private Message to tb30570Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I'm pretty sure that TA Performance block is meant as a replacement for the older longitudinal 3.8 as you'd find in the 80s Regals, and it doesn't have the provision for a balance shaft and such, for the 3800. It also doesn't have the metric FWD bell pattern like the 3800s do.

Doesn't get you the VVT or aluminum heads either. Just an aluminum block.


they sell aluminum heads:
http://www.taperformance.com/products.asp?cat=141

Not a metric bell housing pattern on the block though. Dual bell housing bolt pattern to fit Chevrolet and B.O.P. type transmissions.

IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-19-2015 09:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tb30570:
I have a boosted ls street car that runs 11.4. I didn't have to mess with the coils or the fuel rails. Just colder plugs, injectors and a boost-a-pump. Still gets close to 30mpg on the highway. For most guys I see at the drag track though, sbc or bbc is way more popular than the ls.


Sure. You're running mild boost. Stock C6/C7 Vettes can break into the 11s. A stock Z06 can hit mid-high 10s on drag radials.

And yeah, I didn't say SBC/BBC weren't popular in drag racing. They are. What I said, was an SBC has its limits, and if you want to go beyond those limits and stay in the Chevrolet world, you're going to run a BBC. Or you can go over to a big cube Pontiac motor. More and more people are using Gen IV engines now though. Even at car shows, there are a lot more LS3s getting swapped into classic cars now. Given the cost and availability of Gen IV engines and parts today, I wouldn't waste my time on an earlier SBC, and probably not even on a big block if I was building a drag car, unless class rules required a certain engine or such.

Anyway, I don't see what any of that has to do with the new Gen V based 4.3 V6.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-19-2015 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

11572 posts
Member since Sep 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by tb30570:
they sell aluminum heads:
http://www.taperformance.com/products.asp?cat=141

Not a metric bell housing pattern on the block though. Dual bell housing bolt pattern to fit Chevrolet and B.O.P. type transmissions.


Even with aluminum heads, it's still a RWD 3.8 design block, not a 3800.
IP: Logged
Steel
Member
Posts: 1138
From:
Registered: Apr 2011


Feedback score:    (6)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-21-2015 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SteelSend a Private Message to SteelEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found it more expensive to make my car turn 'decent' than I did making it run mid 10's reliably. I spent nearly twice as much on my suspension/wheel tire and braking combo than I did my engine/transmission and turbo setup for my 3800.

[This message has been edited by Steel (edited 09-21-2015).]

IP: Logged
jscott1
Member
Posts: 21671
From: Houston, TX , USA
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 415
Rate this member

Report this Post09-21-2015 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Steel:

I found it more expensive to make my car turn 'decent' than I did making it run mid 10's reliably. I spent nearly twice as much on my suspension/wheel tire and braking combo than I did my engine/transmission and turbo setup for my 3800.



This is why I say it's more cost effective to buy a gently used C5 than to heavily modify a Fiero to be as good. Probably a C6 as well.
IP: Logged
solotwo
Member
Posts: 5311
From: Grand Rapids, MI. USA
Registered: Jun 2002


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 62
Rate this member

Report this Post09-24-2015 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I see this post started back when I was selling GMC Trucks. The all new truck engines were just coming out. They basically shared nothing with the old engines. FYI the new 4.3 V6 is completely different from the old 4.3/350 with 2 cylinders removed.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-24-2015 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by solotwo:

I see this post started back when I was selling GMC Trucks. The all new truck engines were just coming out. They basically shared nothing with the old engines. FYI the new 4.3 V6 is completely different from the old 4.3/350 with 2 cylinders removed.


Just like the LSx engines are completely different form the original SBC. But some people will try to argue all day long about how they're the same engine, just a newer version.
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 38344
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (11)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 451
Rate this member

Report this Post09-24-2015 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A bit of good news...
The new 4.3 is available as a marine engine. That being the case, there pretty much has to be a stand alone controller available for it, even though it's not mentioned in the literature.
http://gmpowertrain.com/201...LV1)_Vert_020315.pdf
This seems to be the same as the "truck" engine (it's even described as being a Silverado/Sierra engine in the text) except that it doesn't have AFM/DOD.

Edit - Found the controller, too.
http://gmpowertrain.com/201...FI_Marine_010713.pdf

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-24-2015).]

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
jscott1
Member
Posts: 21671
From: Houston, TX , USA
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 415
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2015 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Awesome if a modern V6 is being sold as a standalone engine. Seems like lately all GM wants to sell as crate motors lately are V8s with longitudinal transmissions.
IP: Logged
Raydar
Member
Posts: 38344
From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country.
Registered: Oct 1999


Feedback score:    (11)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 451
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2015 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It occurs to me that the marine ECM will not be set up for a VSS, since boats have propellers and not wheels and axles.
Might have to go with a different controller.
IP: Logged
tb30570
Member
Posts: 22
From: North Dakota
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2015 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tb30570Send a Private Message to tb30570Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

It occurs to me that the marine ECM will not be set up for a VSS, since boats have propellers and not wheels and axles.
Might have to go with a different controller.


Do you need a speed sensor with a manual transmission?
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-25-2015 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

It occurs to me that the marine ECM will not be set up for a VSS, since boats have propellers and not wheels and axles.
Might have to go with a different controller.


The harness and tune might not have it, but you should be able to add the wiring and flash the truck tune on as a starting point, since I'm pretty sure it still uses the same ECM, just with a marine tune and no VSS. There are probably other things missing from the marine setup as well though.
IP: Logged
fieroguru
Member
Posts: 11233
From: Champaign, IL
Registered: Aug 2003


Feedback score:    (45)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 255
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2015 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

It occurs to me that the marine ECM will not be set up for a VSS, since boats have propellers and not wheels and axles.
Might have to go with a different controller.


It appears that ecm does have a VSS input... but it might just be used as a speed limiter, vs a stall reducer.
 
quote

Refined cruise governor controls capable of accepting
multiple speed signal inputs Includes variable frequency,
pulse/mi and CAN-based inputs


In cars, the VSS is mainly to bump the idle speed a couple hundred rpm until the car comes to a near complete stop. This helps reduce/eliminate stalling when you lift off the throttle quickly. But depending on how the airflow tables are setup you might be able to make some other adjustments so the RPM doesn't drop fast enough to stall.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-25-2015).]

IP: Logged
cmechmann
Member
Posts: 963
From: Baltimore Md.
Registered: Dec 2012


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2015 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tb30570:


you can make your own minus the VVT

http://www.taperformance.co...il.asp?prod=TA_V3800


Yeah I had looked at that. It is for rear wheel drive apps with special heads.
I was more thinking along the lines that GM could have cheaply made those improvements. Especially, in the aluminum head department. That would have taken at least the 20lbs off it to compete with the high feature engine.

Ferrari stated, horsepower sells cares. Torque wins races.
I like the analogy: Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall. Torque is how much of the wall you take with you.

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 09-25-2015).]

IP: Logged
fieroguru
Member
Posts: 11233
From: Champaign, IL
Registered: Aug 2003


Feedback score:    (45)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 255
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2015 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Less than $2000 for a complete dropout with 9K miles... who is going to get started on this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COM...em28071842a7&vxp=mtr
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-25-2015 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:
Yeah I had looked at that. It is for rear wheel drive apps with special heads.
I was more thinking along the lines that GM could have cheaply made those improvements. Especially, in the aluminum head department. That would have taken at least the 20lbs off it to compete with the high feature engine.


It's not for "special heads." It's the old Buick 3.8 block design, the same that was in the GNX, and not a 3800.
IP: Logged
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post09-25-2015 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

11572 posts
Member since Sep 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Less than $2000 for a complete dropout with 9K miles... who is going to get started on this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COM...em28071842a7&vxp=mtr


I probably wouldn't start with that one if I was going to do it, at least. I really don't like the position of that frame rail in relation to the engine. That truck was hit hard from the front right. There could very well be damage to the engine. It might be OK, but I'd be very reluctant to buy that one, without dropping the pan and peeking inside first.
IP: Logged
Internet-man
Member
Posts: 54
From: Tampa
Registered: Jun 2014


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post12-17-2015 06:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Internet-manClick Here to Email Internet-manSend a Private Message to Internet-manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It would be easier if they put one in an FWD application.
*tent my fingers* and now we play the waiting game.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
dobey
Member
Posts: 11572
From:
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 371
User Banned

Report this Post12-17-2015 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Internet-man:

It would be easier if they put one in an FWD application.
*tent my fingers* and now we play the waiting game.


Not happening. The 4.3 is exclusively for the trucks. The transverse FWD applications are all Ecotec or High Feature V6, both of which have different bell patterns from the traditional Metric pattern that was used in the Fiero. And the High Feature V6 engines are all automatic as well now, in the US (not sure if any current Euro cars are FWD and manual with the High Feature engines). You can maybe find a Saab 2.8t F40 to use, but they are rare and usually pricey, if you do happen to find one.
IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 2 pages long:  1   2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock