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You'll hate THIS..Suzuki engine going in a Fiero. by Iain
Started on: 09-09-2013 10:19 AM
Replies: 22 (1782 views)
Last post by: Iain on 05-28-2014 06:43 PM
Iain
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Report this Post09-09-2013 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IainSend a Private Message to IainEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, it's a Japanese engine in an American car, being converted in Scotland.
If that's your idea of automotive hell, then feel free to run screaming now.

This project started off ten years ago when I bought an '87 2.8GT auto with knocking big ends. I already had an '85 notchie daily driver at the time. The '87 ended up being stored while I moved house, then moved house again, then started a Mini rebuild for my son, then a second one. When the Mini's got sold on so he could buy an E36 Touring, I finally got my garage back, … just have to organise it enough that a Fiero will actually fit in.

A modern UK garage, not enough room to swing a cat, certainly not my cat, he's the size of a fox and he'd have your arm off.

The original idea was a manual conversion and hot 3.1, aiming for at least 200hp. except I hadn't counted on how badly '80s American engines are built. A couple were sourced over time, but on stripping down I was going to have to replace absolutely everything. That was way out of the budget, even before the engineering to get the deck heights even, or bores properly spaced, or the crank straight. And I couldn't stick in anything else.
Why, because the aim was to build a road/hillclimb car. I had hillclimbed the 2.5 (auto!!) a few times, which was hilariously bad, and I wanted something better.



The 2.8 is an improvement, but still fairly slow. A different block or transmission knocks the car out of roadgoing and into Sports Libre. Proper racing cars. With serious regulations. A full cage is mandatory. I thought about it some considerable while, couple of years actually, and decided may as well go for it.
A Euro V6 would get me 250 hp, I acquired one, it would fit, but pricing out some of the bits I needed, and to make the gearbox survive, too expensive. The 2.0 L is an easy swap but getting 250 hp costs. A post '93 Saab 2.3 looked to be on the cards, 325hp with just some headwork and a DIY chip flash. Boost limited through the gears so the gearbox survives, cheap as chips too, that'll do nicely. Then a UK magazine helpfully pointed out the potential in the SAAB 9000 and the price of cars tripled! Thanks for that PPC :-)

I'd already decided on an '88 rear end going in, acquired one of those. Considered making my own front on Locost lines when an '88 front came up a few years back. Snagged that, just before my son sidetracked me with Mini's. The weight though, going to have to do something with that. Sold all the bits I'd bought over the years for '84-87's, including the original engine, gearbox and rear subframe.



The credit crunch has meant no wage increase for three years, and this year only 1%, still a cut in real terms. I'm officially skint. I was thoroughly P'd off having gotten nowhere with the GT. A while back, over a Fraoch or two, decidedthat with a Mini free garage coming up the sensible option was just to stick a Suzuki engine and 'box in, since I had a couple or three lying about and know them well.
Initially it's going to be a G16b, 1.6, 16V, low pressure turbo, 150-160hp,turning a Swift 4wd box converted to 2wd, just to get the thing moving. I can't afford uprated rods for more than that. Eventually a 1.3, SOHC 16V, turbo, shooting for 300+hp. Quite a bit of expensive engineering needed for that, target is 2015. Fuel will be LPG.

This came up cheap on ebay in March, an actual '88. Not a million miles away too. Excellent. Pity it's red.



Won the auction on evilbay. Wah Hey! The initial plan was to use it as a daily driver/master to make sure all the bits I was putting into the '87 were aligned where they should be. Sort any little problems along the way and resell it on completion. That plan lasted ten miles. As long as it took for the '88 to throw all it's water out. Hmnn, stat out, refilled it, detoured and dumped it beside the GT at my in-laws house close by. Unfortunately that's 60 miles away. Oh, and it is riddled with faults. Like the battery +ve cable that was 3 pieces of cable bolted or soldered together. Unsurprisingly it caught fire, though I had it out in seconds. Once it's hot it idles like a rollercoaster. The paint is awful, overspray and bubbles everywhere, the tyres are flatspotted, which are full of cracks. The wheels are 14” powdercoated black. The rear subframe is full of dents, looks like everybody and their brother has jacked it up, probably trying to track down all the faults. Like the bent suspension. And it smelt of damp. At least all the hours with the heater running trying to track down where the damn thing is leaking from has cured that.. Lost all patience, I want to go hillclimbing. so the red thing is going to be the victim. The '87 will supply some of the bodywork and may end up semi spaceframe if I ever get the time, or live long enough. I suspect getting the red PoC here will involve several gallons of water and a good book to read whilst it cools at the side of the road. I'm not spending money on a transporter when I can use it on something else.
The full cage means at least I'll have something to hold up the sagging headlining. It'll still be road registered, since full on race cars aren't allowed at some track days.
Has to go on a drastic diet though, far too lardy, anything that can be removed, drilled, shaved or dumped will be, the boot/trunk floor can go to make way for a proper diffuser extending from a full undertray under the subframe. The bonnet needs vented because the splitter will continue rearwards to block radiator air from exiting under the car. The sides need vents to feed the engine, intercooler/chargecooler and oil cooler. The tank has to go to make way for the LPG tank. The rear engine cover is going to be cut out forward of the luggage compartment. It's going GT, so I need to make a perspex rear screen to fill in between the rear buttresses, to try keep the airflow attached and feed the engine compartment air over the standard rear spoiler, which I'm hopeful I can modify. I'm allowed an actual rear spoiler, no higher than roof height and no further back than the rear bumper. Acquired an ex F1 mainplane that needs a little repair for that job. Need to make up mounting brackets and monster endplates.
Steering is going to be a difficulty, the standard rack can't cope with hairpins, especially in the wet if I get it sideways. A quickener and possibly electrical assistance looks like the cheapest solution.
Brakes.. not sure, all the discs are pitted but should cleanup. I have assorted bells lying about, but VW and Scooby discs are cheap, a pair for the price of one Wilwood, though the widths are in the 24-25mm range.
The engine is the easy part, I have three low mileage short motors, two heads and an assortment of just about everything I need. Megasquirt ECU, itb's or throttle body manifold, turbo's, flanges and manifolds. I do my own headwork, static balancing and blueprinting.
The gearboxes are good for 400hp, I have loads of driveshafts, clutch may take a bit of ingenuity, since I want to use an ali 2wd flywheel and that's a lot thinner. An LSD is more than the car cost, so I'll be using a Phantom Grip like thing, except with very much higher spring pressures and bike clutch material as a friction face. And yes, I do need one. It rains here. A lot.
I'm allowed slicks, but again, no budget for them, so I'll be on road tyres with a set of ex VW 6.5” x 15” BBS.



It'll never be in any way competitive, I'm not a good enough driver and it's going up against Wacky Racer things like 450bhp, 4wd, spaceframed “Mini's” and the like.

But it should be fun.

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Report this Post09-09-2013 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
sounds like a very interesting project .keep us posted .there was a fellow doing a nissan swap but i dont know if it was ever finished .i would like to see how much extra space you will have in the engine compartment with a suzuki in there .
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Report this Post09-09-2013 02:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love the idea of a small displacement, high output engine. I was talking just yesterday with a fellow about the the new Ford Ecoboost 3-cylinder. Apparently the deck is smaller than a letter-sized piece of paper! With 1.0l of displacement, stock output is 123 hp and 148 lb ft, but they've already built them to about 200hp. 200hp out of a motor that can fit in a carry-on bag!
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Report this Post09-09-2013 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My experience suggests an open diff and premium race tires grossly outperforms an lsd on regular tires. The open diff itself also improves handling significantly for a fiero.
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Report this Post09-09-2013 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Iain:

A while back, over a Fraoch or two...


Even though my dad was born in Paisley, I'd never heard that term before. Had to look it up. Slàinte mhath!
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Report this Post09-09-2013 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Far from hating it, glad to see you doing something unique to your fiero. Please keep posting, I love watching interesting engine swaps.

------------------


Build thread for my 88 + 3800NA swap

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Iain
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Report this Post09-09-2013 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IainSend a Private Message to IainEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Several people using 1.3 are putting over 300hp at the wheels, It's a very strong engine. I'll hopefully be piggybacking on their knowledge eventually.
The 1.6 rods don't like more than about 175 ish.

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

My experience suggests an open diff and premium race tires grossly outperforms an lsd on regular tires. The open diff itself also improves handling significantly for a fiero.


Cheers. Unfortunately I can't afford any kind of premium tyres, never mind proper slicks. The 2.5 would spin wheels all over the place in the wet, I should have more power and less weight, though much better roll control, might still have the pics showing how much the 2.5 rolled, I'll have a look. It's an easy box to pull the diff from without a full strip down just to try it at any rate.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:



quote
Originally posted by Iain:

A while back, over a Fraoch or two...


Even though my dad was born in Paisley, I'd never heard that term before. Had to look it up. Slàinte mhath!


This stuff Supposed to be a 4000 year old recipe, all I can say is I like it.

Be a wee while before there's any major progress pics, working on the head and block until I can get the car up here. There's some major roadworks on the Motorway here, daren't try it until they are finished.

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pontiackid86
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Report this Post09-09-2013 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I knew a guy in the area put a 4g63 eclipse engine into a fiero.... don't matter who makes it.. if it gets your rocks off more power to ya
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Report this Post09-10-2013 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Seeing how you're on the "Other side of the Pond" and you won't have ready access to the more common engines from here...
- it's obviously the thing you have to do. Go for it and post your details.

At the same time, some of us have drooled over some "European Spec" GM engines NOT available here.


------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-10-2013).]

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Report this Post09-10-2013 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larini74Click Here to visit larini74's HomePageClick Here to Email larini74Send a Private Message to larini74Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
About 5 years or so ago, someone was trying to put 2 Hyabusa engines into a Fiero, but I think the engineering of it got to be too difficult and it was dropped.
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Report this Post11-22-2013 05:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MadscannerSend a Private Message to MadscannerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There's one lad here in Preston who has a Vauxhall red top (C20XE, 1998cc, 4-cyl, 148 bhp straight out of the box) engine in his, paired with a 5-speed manual gearbox. I'm not sure what the weight differential would be between that and, say, the 2.8, and would be interested to know.


Paul

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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post11-22-2013 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love new and different swaps. No need to hate!
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Report this Post11-23-2013 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

I love new and different swaps. No need to hate!


Agreed.

But I do get annoyed at the "I can get my sister's, boyfriend's, cousin's Mercury V6 outboard boat engine FOR FREE. How much work would it be to install this?"

Answer: NOT Free (likely MORE $$$ in the long run than buying a "normal" engine used in a Fiero swap)

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 11-23-2013).]

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Report this Post11-25-2013 04:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One the things I really like about this forum is that new and different ideas are embraced. I say "go for it"! Nothing wrong with doing the swap you like. There have been plenty of american engine swaps in to foreign cars too.
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Report this Post05-10-2014 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IainSend a Private Message to IainEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry not been back on, been a little busy.

Paul the C20XE is in the 135-140kg range fully dressed and oiled.

This has been it's usual 2 steps forward 3 steps back, though this time it's more of a train ride back.

Got the red car up here, flushed out the cooling system, (Pepsi Max is wonderful stuff if you're not daft enough to drink it). Got out loads of crap and lots of bits of rtv sealant, courtesy of Mr Bodgitt the previous owner.

Fitted the BBS, seatcovers, saddle cover and changed out the horrible steering wheel and gear knob for my old Momo and a cheapo alloy thing I found in the garage. Much better to drive, but I'd forgotten how horrible Fiero headlights are, I'll really need to add that to the list. Driving narrow Scottish backroads in the dark was hilarious, the lights are even worse than my son's 45mm ground clearance BMW.








Are the seats different in an '88? I don't find these as comfortable as my old '85, may have to be replaced with the Recaro's hiding in the loft.

Lined up the G13 engine and 4wd box in the spare subframe, fitted easily, loads of space for the turbo, mounts were going to be dead easy. Things were going swimmingly. I should have known disaster lurked.
To cut a long story short, turned out both my in laws had/have some serious health problems and cars took a back seat. I won't go into all the details but it's not been a pleasant time. On the mend now hopefully, but we had to move on a whole load of stuff I shared with my father in law, then move all my bits and pieces up here when it looked like they'd need sheltered housing.

BV you'll recognise this!





And yes, it did hang up on the front spoiler getting it off the transporter!



If you're in the UK I thoroughly recommend transporterhire.co.uk, 2nd time I've used them and they're excellent.
It's been a laugh and a half since then, I have nothing like enough space. Tried to sell the '87 as a project but no takers, ended up hiring storage for that and tons of bits.

Oh, and the bar steward red car still overheats, so it's off the road for the duration. Probably. Likely cause is the belt tensioner doesn't have any tension. Far too expensive to replace for all the miles it'll do, I may just convert it to manual adjustment if I have to. I'd really like to get some track time in it. So would my son, especially now it doesn't have the horrible soft squidgy wheel and filthy gearknob.
If I do put it back on the road I have to sort the hangy down exhaust though, it's embarrasing.



Tried to move on some of my Suzuki bits with little success, so one of my mates ended up with a couple car loads of free Suzuki engines and gearboxes because I decided it was only sensible to swap to the current Suzuki M series engines, I don't have to hold mountains of spares then. And I just happened to have an ex Vitara M16 lying in my spares pile. As you do really.



The M13, 15 and 16 all share the same bellhousing pattern and heads, though the new Swift 1.6 Sport head is supposed to be different. The only external difference is block height. I'm going to have to build a new flow bench, never played with an M series, where on earth I'm going to put it I've no idea.
The ex Vit engine had an alloy sump which was a worry, I can't alloy weld, so I was stuffed if I wanted to mod a Swift sump if it was alloy also. Picked up a Wagon 'R' 1.3 engine, steel sump, problem sorted. The crank and rods are smaller in the 1.3, it'll turbo, but there's not much in the way of uprating parts. It'll do as a fitment dummy if I need one, just need to remember to space the head up.

200 hp is available from a turbo 1.5 or 1.6 on standard internals. I'm going the 1.5 route, partly UK car tax reasons, but mostly because everyone wants the 1.6, so the 1.5 is cheaper. Whole host of uprate parts for both.
An overnight to England turned up an Ignis Sport 'box, nice short ratios. The Iggy has a cable clutch, into my parts pile and I bolted on a Swift 4wd actuator arm and Baleno slave. Sorted.



I have a helper, though he's not much good with a spanner. He hates the grinder but likes the welder, always need to double check the garage when I'm welding, maybe he thinks I'm making bacon, he likes bacon.



The Vit came with a nice alloy mount I'd like to reuse, it's the perfect angle, but the stainless exhaust I picked up goes right through it.

Hmmn.







I can't convert it to a turbo manifold, with either turbo I have, the oil drain would be too low. Hmmn again.

IHI turbo


T25 turbo


Most of the turbo kits I've seen use a cast, log style manifold. Though it's cheap and readily available I'd rather use something a little more elegant, especially since the Fiero has more space than the Swift, so I'll need to see what I can come up with that lifts the turbo higher. I have an old G13 turbo manifold runner system . . . somewhere.

Can't find the card with the pics of the engine/box combo sitting in the frame, it's a few mm wider than the G13, but still lets me lift the suspension mounts for better alignment when I lower the car. I can't retake them at the moment, my Swift convertible is in the garage, with so much other stuff in there that I can barely get in myself.

So, that's where i am at the moment really, need to move the Swift on to get some space to work. Strip the '87, dump the remains and get hold of a 1.5 engine. If I can turn up one with key and ECU, I may just lob it in n/a and work out the turbo system over the winter. Stripping the '87 does give the option of changing the red car to aero body style. The red paint is awful and I really can't be arsed making sail panels for it, currently doesn't have any, just lumpy black paint. Or I get the red car running properly and flog it. Decisions, decisions.

[This message has been edited by Iain (edited 05-10-2014).]

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tesmith66
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Report this Post05-10-2014 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're nuts, man. I like it!! More pics.

Love the cat, too.

Don't feel bad about mixing up makes. Our V6 Pontiacs have Chevy engines in them from the factory, and some of our 5 speeds are Isuzu.

[This message has been edited by tesmith66 (edited 05-10-2014).]

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Report this Post05-10-2014 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jimbolayaClick Here to Email jimbolayaSend a Private Message to jimbolayaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Iain:




Love the steering wheel, not too fond of the penis coming out of your center console though.

Jim

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Report this Post05-11-2014 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You sir are a very evil man, an import motor in a Fiero, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH EVIL!

OK don't ranting, good luck.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post05-11-2014 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for notaguruClick Here to visit notaguru's HomePageClick Here to Email notaguruSend a Private Message to notaguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You have skill and experience - I will follow this with high expectations.

And please reject any criticism regarding the matchup between powerplant and auto nationalities - pragmatism reigns. I once blew the engine in my MGTD, and the only free powerplant was a Studebaker straight-6, flathead. I fabbed mounts, took the sides off the bonnet, and drove it that way until I could afford something more proper. It was reliable and reasonably quick, but it was a lesson in understeer and the epitome of powerplant ugliness.

Good luck to you, laddie!
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Report this Post05-11-2014 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gokart MozartClick Here to visit Gokart Mozart's HomePageSend a Private Message to Gokart MozartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Didn't notice if you checked the coolant tubes under the car. With all that banging around from the other workers, I'm sure they're pinched.
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Report this Post05-12-2014 06:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IainSend a Private Message to IainEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tesmith66:


Love the cat, too.




75% Ragdoll, 100% Stupid, mad as a box of frogs, I have to wash his paws after he's been in the garage. He hates it, but doesn't equate the two, no matter how many times it happens.

 
quote
Originally posted by jimbolaya:


Love the steering wheel, not too fond of the penis coming out of your center console though.

Jim


Yeah, it's a bit horrible, allI had lying around, I have another, but that's red anodised, so it's even worse!

 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

You sir are a very evil man, an import motor in a Fiero, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH EVIL!

OK don't ranting, good luck.

Steve



They're both imports here Steve, maybe that evens it out. ;-)

Notaguru, yep, needs must, American engine parts are cheap.. in the States, carriage to the UK is a killer. The Suzuki is cheap, plentiful and i should only need rods if I go above 200hp. Most of the rest I have or can make. I just have to make the space to get working.

 
quote
Originally posted by Gokart Mozart:

Didn't notice if you checked the coolant tubes under the car. With all that banging around from the other workers, I'm sure they're pinched.


Thanks, first thing i checked, all OK thankfully. Initially it was masses of sealant introduced when the previous owner changed the water pump. Need to post pics, never seen a pump with tht much sealant over it.


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Report this Post05-12-2014 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IainSend a Private Message to IainEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Madscanner:

There's one lad here in Preston who has a Vauxhall red top (C20XE, 1998cc, 4-cyl, 148 bhp straight out of the box) engine in his, paired with a 5-speed manual gearbox. I'm not sure what the weight differential would be between that and, say, the 2.8, and would be interested to know.


Paul


Forgot to add the Redtop is only 4 or5 wires to use the standard ECU. Think the later engine is 11. PPC, Practical Performance magazine did several articles on them. Both very popular on Locostbuilders and the 16V mini forum
Iain
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Report this Post05-28-2014 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IainSend a Private Message to IainEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Think I have tracked down the cause of the overheating.
During a timing check I noticed the tensioner pulley was oscillating all over the place, bearing I thought. So, pulled off the belt, grabbed the pulley, and as all little kids will tell you, "it came off in my hand, Honest!"



I'm presuming it was the same muppet who had used three pieces of cable joined together as a starter feed.

The boss is split in two and joined together with urethane sealer or similar, there was no thread, the bolt was held in with more sealer. US$170 lighter for the new one winging it's way across the pond. Needs a new belt too, that's toast.

Also spotted the +ve from the alternator has been cut. It appears to have been replaced with another +ve directly from the alt. That has a Lucas UK sticker on it. I'll need to trace the cables back and see it where they go.

Heard today the garage the black car is stored in will be demolished in a couple of months. Excellent.
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