I was in hopes some might provide some insight into this as I'm having difficulty making up my mind with what engine swap to do. My Fiero is a 87 GT and I'm trying to weigh the pro's and cons of both. On the one hand I absolutely love the 3800 and on the other hand a LS seems appealing. Cost wise I would imagine they are roughly the same (please correct me if I'm wrong), but in the long run the 3800 probably would be a tad bit cheaper since I have numerous parts laying around. I have a GTP in the garage that I converted to a turbo and I'm half tempted to just pull the turbo kit and other parts off it and revert the GTP back to Supercharged to hack up and use for the Fiero. Owning my GTO has made me fall absolutely in love in with LS engines. So one might see the dilemma I'm in. Any guidance to figuring out what I should do or what might make things a little easier in deciding?
The goal with the car is make it a fun street and occasional track car while upgrading to modern conveniences. At the same time I would like the car to have the ability to do some decent cornering, but not to the extreme that hinders ride quality. I occasionally go once a month with some buddies on a local cruise that has sweeping curves and turns and awesome straightaways. My plan is to tackle the old suspension and brakes first and then move to the engine.
Thoughts, suggestions, comments are welcomed. Please help.
Let's take the money aspect out of the equation, because money honestly isn't a factor. I enjoy my Pontiacs and have no desire to get rid of them. Thoughts?
Money no object? Then consider the weight/handling penalty of the different swaps... a turbo 3800 with all the required plumbing will be heavy. An aluminum block LS would probably be a lot closer to a stock weight bias.
Power possibility is about the same unless you go crazy with the V8 upgrades. Though, at that point, you have to worry about the transmission turning into a pile of scrap.
If money not an issue then I would say the LS all the way. Newer technology and better aftermarket. 3800sc are nice & easy for Fieros but it is like the SBC of the V6s.
Better off to invest your time into the GTO. Much better return.
My GTO is a daily and I'm planning on keeping that way. I have done a shifter and may do wheels and some mufflers, but that's it. Also it's a one of 57 car so I don't want to get into extensive modifications. I learned real quick how big of a mistake it is to heavily modify a car when it's your daily. It can only take so much abuse before something breaks. I learned that lesson when I put the turbo kit on the GTP along with a slew of other parts. I went through 2 transmissions, one of which was built and I'm about to be on my third.
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Originally posted by skuzzbomer:
Money no object? Then consider the weight/handling penalty of the different swaps... a turbo 3800 with all the required plumbing will be heavy. An aluminum block LS would probably be a lot closer to a stock weight bias.
Power possibility is about the same unless you go crazy with the V8 upgrades. Though, at that point, you have to worry about the transmission turning into a pile of scrap.
I'm not too concerned about the weight of the 3800 because that can easily be overcome by adding more power. How much of an effect does adding a 3800/trans have on the handling aspect?
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Originally posted by fieroguru:
The 3800 is the hands down winner for cost/ease in install... but the LS4/4T65e-hd is gaining in popularity.
I am a V8 manual guy, so I have...
I think ease of installation is a much better fit for me honestly, unless the weight of the 3800 and trans will turn any handling capabilities to absolute garbage. I may need to do a little more research on the LS4/4t65E-HD swap to see how involved it is.
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Originally posted by Alex4mula:
If money not an issue then I would say the LS all the way. Newer technology and better aftermarket. 3800sc are nice & easy for Fieros but it is like the SBC of the V6s.
I wouldn't bother staying S/C I did that on a previous GTP and then when I got my 97 and swapped to a turbo it completely turned me off to any 3800 S/C setups.
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[This message has been edited by Slow6 (edited 07-21-2013).]
I wouldn't bother staying S/C I did that on a previous GTP and then when I got my 97 and swapped to a turbo it completely turned me off to any 3800 S/C setups.
That big of a difference, even for a daily driver (at the time)?
That big of a difference, even for a daily driver (at the time)?
Yes huge difference. I went from a sub 300whp GTP to a GTP that put down 346whp/575tq on 12PSI with a 200K mile factory block that had nothing more than 1.9 rockers, plog, shelf tune, M90 blockoff, intercooler, and 2.5" exhaust. All while still retaining factory A/C, power steering, and ABS. To put that in perspective my stock LS2 GTO down to the paper filter dynod at 343hp/345tq.
Hands down the best modification I did on that car. Keep in mind that was low boost levels and I was restricted from turning it up due to the tune, traction, and 42lb injectors. Sadly enough After 2 years of street racing, daily driving, occasionally 1/8 mile dragstrip outings, and occasional spirited cruise driving with friends the built trans had enough.
[This message has been edited by Slow6 (edited 07-21-2013).]
Let's take the money aspect out of the equation, because money honestly isn't a factor. I enjoy my Pontiacs and have no desire to get rid of them. Thoughts?
If money is moot. Buy one. Way better option. From a guy who has had 2 swapped cars an 10 Fieros.
If money is no object I have a vehicle with a nicely installed 3800 SC Series II engine and manual transmission that I can sell. It also happens to be a T-Top 87 Mera. You can tinker with it as much as desired to keep everything looking good and running well.
This question all depends on what u want out of the car? Either swap will give u nice HP and a fast Fiero. Price wise the 3800 is the cheaper swap but the LS4 isnt that much more. I like the apperance of the 3800 my self and the ease of working on it. The LS4 takes up the complete engine bay and will prove just a little harder to work on. Either swap will make the car a blast to drive and turn it into a fast street car. My vote would go torward the 3800 if u r looking for a good looking swap that is proven and will turn heads going down the track.
If money is no object I have a vehicle with a nicely installed 3800 SC Series II engine and manual transmission that I can sell. It also happens to be a T-Top 87 Mera. You can tinker with it as much as desired to keep everything looking good and running well.
Nelson
Nelson, I appreciate it, but I will have to pass. One of the reasons I got this car is to tackle an engine swap and as odd as it may seem is on my bucket list. I have done a few engine swaps in other vehicles and looking forward to this one.
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Originally posted by MstangsBware:
This question all depends on what u want out of the car? Either swap will give u nice HP and a fast Fiero. Price wise the 3800 is the cheaper swap but the LS4 isnt that much more. I like the apperance of the 3800 my self and the ease of working on it. The LS4 takes up the complete engine bay and will prove just a little harder to work on. Either swap will make the car a blast to drive and turn it into a fast street car. My vote would go torward the 3800 if u r looking for a good looking swap that is proven and will turn heads going down the track.
I did look at a few LS4 swaps online and they seem like a really tight fit with a few extra modifications than one would have to do on a 3800. I hope you are still planning on making it out to the lunch this Saturday. I'd like to pick your brain if you don't mind.
I really dont think there is much of money difference in swap, just depends on how you do it. I spent $600.00 for a complete low mileage LS4/4t65ehd, $310 for a Microsquirt to control the LS4, $350 for a MagnaShift trans controller for the trans, $250 for some axles. Thats only about $1500 total for the core part of the swap. I did sell off some parts off the LS4 like the ECU, wire harness, intake/injectors/tb, and a few other things so the cost is a little lower. I made my own motor mounts, did my own wiring harness, did my own tuning, which is a huge plus of the Microsquirt/Tunerstudio setup. Dont cost me nothing to tune my car- ever......
I put on a LQ9 (truck) intake, tb, injectors that I got for $50.00, upgraded the fuel pump, fabbed up some paddle shifters, oil/filters, fuel fittings, exhaust, belt, wideband, ect- so in the end I have maybe a grand total of $2000.00. First trip to the dyno (no tuning) was 272hp/288tq on a soft tune, changed the 200k+ mile truck coil packs to some newer LS6 coil packs, changed out the factory orginal spark plugs for some new ones, put a little more timing in the tune and it made 306hp/312tq on the second trip to the dyno also with no dyno tuning. This is still on the factory cam, the motor hasnt been tore down more than the intake manifold....
I have a new cam, lifters, head gaskets/studs, turbo, injectors sitting my my garage waiting to go on, (still need to get a few more things) that should yield me 575hp/575tq (ish) on low boost. This investment will have less than $1500 in it- NOT including transmission upgrades. I have been down the 3800sc road before and its a great platform but its just not for me. I felt that I was locked into only 2 or 3 trustworthy vendors to get preformance parts and the prices just didnt reflect the gains.
Personally I love the LS platform, theres a never ending source of parts, suppliers and resources that I just didnt find with the 3800. Either platform is going to give you good results if you do it right....
[This message has been edited by diabloroadster (edited 07-21-2013).]
Um... You go to work and make 6 figures and don't have to bloody your knuckles to own an 11 second car, that has A/C. Why the eff would you work and not reap the benefits of money being moot?
If money is no object I have a vehicle with a nicely installed 3800 SC Series II engine and manual transmission that I can sell. It also happens to be a T-Top 87 Mera. You can tinker with it as much as desired to keep everything looking good and running well.
Nelson
Id like to offer than I have an 88 CJB car with an L67 and tons of go fast goodies in a manual shift. Mine is more of an F355 look.
Um... You go to work and make 6 figures and don't have to bloody your knuckles to own an 11 second car, that has A/C. Why the eff would you work and not reap the benefits of money being moot?
Thats good for some but others like the feel of accomplishment amd pride when they finish a project. Also when asked about the car u can give them every little detail not just what the previous owner told u about the car. At least that is the way I feel about it.
I did look at a few LS4 swaps online and they seem like a really tight fit with a few extra modifications than one would have to do on a 3800. I hope you are still planning on making it out to the lunch this Saturday. I'd like to pick your brain if you don't mind.
I still plan on being there......Will have the last swapped car I did there since it is ready..
diabloroadster-I appreciate your well thought out and written post. Most of my knowledge lies with in the 3800 engine compared to the LS, which is the only reason I'm leaning more towards the 3800 for the mere reason of forced induction and the capabilities and what seem alike endless limitations of the block. It doesn't seem possible on the LS4 without lots of hacking to go forced induction.
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Originally posted by ls3mach:
Um... You go to work and make 6 figures and don't have to bloody your knuckles to own an 11 second car, that has A/C. Why the eff would you work and not reap the benefits of money being moot?
Because I enjoy wrenching on cars and learning the ins and outs of what I own. What good is a 11 second car if an owner is completely clueless as to what is involved in the process. Don't get me wrong, most of the parts will be paid for to make the job easier. I consider myself a lifetime learner when it comes to everything I dabble in. There's nothing more frustrating than going to a show or dragstrip asking questions and an owner being dumbfounded about their own vehicle. Does that mean I don't respect those who prefer to go that route. Absolutely not, I'm just one of those guys that prefers to be involved when I'm fully capable of completing the task at hand. Not to mention I have 3 months out of the year where I'm not working and enjoy turning wrenches during that time.
Excellent discussions and thought provoking posts gentlemen. It is much appreciated.
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Originally posted by MstangsBware:
I still plan on being there......Will have the last swapped car I did there since it is ready..
Excellent. Would love to take a good look at it and take some pictures if you don't mind.
[This message has been edited by Slow6 (edited 07-21-2013).]
diabloroadster-I appreciate your well thought out and written post. Most of my knowledge lies with in the 3800 engine compared to the LS, which is the only reason I'm leaning more towards the 3800 for the mere reason of forced induction and the capabilities and what seem alike endless limitations of the block. It doesn't seem possible on the LS4 without lots of hacking to go forced induction.
Excellent. Would love to take a good look at it and take some pictures if you don't mind.
Not at all..I can answer anything u need to know. Once this car is gone I get to actually start back on my car.
Originally posted by Slow6: Let's take the money aspect out of the equation, because money honestly isn't a factor. I enjoy my Pontiacs and have no desire to get rid of them. Thoughts?
If this is totally true, then do both. Drive both for a year, in equal amounts. If you don't like one of them, sell it at the loss and be done with it.
Originally posted by MstangsBware: Thats good for some but others like the feel of accomplishment amd pride when they finish a project. Also when asked about the car u can give them every little detail not just what the previous owner told u about the car. At least that is the way I feel about it.
In my case, it's not even an option really. There's only one other Fiero on the planet that has a swap which is remotely close to what I want out of my swap. And he's certainly not about to sell it, having only just got it running with a drivable tune. I could pay someone else to do the work of building my engine and putting the swap in, but at over $100/hr average labor cost for mechanics, the price will add up very quick. Bloody knuckles or not, some aspects of building a car are actually relaxing and enjoyable, while others are extremely frustrating. And being an engineer, I like challenging things.
If I wanted to just buy a fast car, I wouldn't even bother with Fieros. I'd go down the street to the Chevy dealer and buy a fast car, whether it's a Z06 Carbon, ZR1, ZL1, or the new Z/28. Or go over to the Dodge dealer and drive off in a new Viper.
But not everyone swaps the drivetrain in a Fiero just to have a fast car. Some of us do it for the challenge and just to build a car. How fast it is in the 1/4 mile, or if it could win a Formula 1 race is irrelevant. It's fast enough. Heck, just being able to drive mine right now, would be enough.
Originally posted by Slow6: diabloroadster-I appreciate your well thought out and written post. Most of my knowledge lies with in the 3800 engine compared to the LS, which is the only reason I'm leaning more towards the 3800 for the mere reason of forced induction and the capabilities and what seem alike endless limitations of the block. It doesn't seem possible on the LS4 without lots of hacking to go forced induction.
Throwing a turbo on an LS4 is equally as difficult as throwing one on a 3800. The LS4 might need to be limited a bit more in how much boost pressure you throw in it, but as far as the piping goes, it's basically going to be the same either way. You'll have a tiny bit less room with an LS4 than a 3800, but it's pretty much going to be the same amount of work either way.
If this is totally true, then do both. Drive both for a year, in equal amounts. If you don't like one of them, sell it at the loss and be done with it.
Because doing that would mean I'd be working on three vehicles at the same time. That's rather silly and a waste of time. Nothing would ever get done, and if it did it would take longer than I would want. Furthermore, I only want one Fiero not two. LOL
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Originally posted by dobey:
Throwing a turbo on an LS4 is equally as difficult as throwing one on a 3800. The LS4 might need to be limited a bit more in how much boost pressure you throw in it, but as far as the piping goes, it's basically going to be the same either way. You'll have a tiny bit less room with an LS4 than a 3800, but it's pretty much going to be the same amount of work either way.
I would assume the LS4 is going to take up quite a bit more area in the engine bay compared to the 3800 from the pictures I have come across. Putting a turbo kit on a LS4 seems a bit more involved with regard to hacking stuff up to make it fit. Where as with the 3800 it appears that there is enough room to fit a turbo in the bay. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
[This message has been edited by Slow6 (edited 07-22-2013).]
Originally posted by Slow6: I would assume the LS4 is going to take up quite a bit more area in the engine bay compared to the 3800 from the pictures I have come across. Putting a turbo kit on a LS4 seems a bit more involved with regard to hacking stuff up to make it fit. Where as with the 3800 it appears that there is enough room to fit a turbo in the bay. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The stock 3800 and LS4 manifolds both exit at the same location. Both with a crossover pipe in the same place. Both use the 4t65 trans. Assuming you mount the trans in the same spot and use stock manifolds, then you're going to cut the trunk. If you're not using the stock manifolds, and going to mount the turbo over above the trans, then you still have the same amount of room above the trans, with either engine, really. You might have a very tiny bit less room, because the LS4 starter does mount on the trans side, but you'd want to put a heat shield there, and you probably don't want to mount the turbo exhaust that close to the trans anyway, to avoid the heat build-up that could occur. Where the LS4 does take up more room, is on the accessory end, as the water manifold is pretty large, but there's not really any difference in terms of where a turbo would be mounted, on either engine.
There is a little more work to mount an LS4 in, with the stock water manifold/pump though, as it does interfere with the decklid hinge, and can possibly interfere with the firewall. You could go with the remote electric pump though, and then that would no longer be an issue. Or you can do as others have done, and make some small modifications to make things fit.
But if you want to do it cheap, fast, and easy, then go with the 3800. You're not likely to do any LS swap as cheap as you can do the 3800. And it certainly won't be as easy, even with a kit.
...(snip)....Furthermore, I only want one Fiero not two. LOL... (snip)
Oh... you say that now...!
<--- owns 2 Fiero's...
BTW, to answer your question. If cost is not a factor... then I would go with an LS. The OMG factor is through the roof, and the motor has prooved to be a great modern hot rod platform. It is also a generation newer than the L67.
------------------ <---- did you buy Cliff a beer? ......................................................www.northtexasfieroclub.org
3800 hands down is the best engine swap for the job. If you want an LS motor in the Fiero. Buy a Corvette. It's better in that car than in a Fiero. Trust me! all your gonna do is spend a boat load of money for a huge disapointment.
Eh? That's crazy. If your goal is solely to have a crazy fast car, sure, sure go buy a Corvette. But if your goal is to have something unique, something you're invested in, then I'd imagine a Corvette would be the last car on your list. Anyone can go buy a Corvette - but relatively few people can have a quick Fiero with the busted knuckles and knowledge of every fastener to go with it. Me? I'd take that every day of the week. I take great pride when someone says, "Nice Falcon, V8?" And I can say "HELL NO! It's a 200ci six with a 2bbl, headers, and a distributorless ignition and I'm happy to tell you everything about every aspect of the build." Anyone can have a 300hp Falcon. Very few people can have a 120hp Falcon.
And that's why I hate this thread. I've got an L32 in my GT, and I can't stop thinking about just a little more... I just haven't quite decided between an Ecotec, a 3800SC, or an LS4! (And seeing fieroguru's sig everywhere isn't helping one iota). I'll take something genuinely interesting over something pointlessly fast any day of the week. If it can be fast and interesting, well then, we've got something!
Edit: And for the record, I see nothing wrong with making enough money to pay someone else to do the work but choosing to do it yourself. I'm well paid with a full time job, but it's been probably fifteen years since someone else has taken a wrench to one of my cars. Wrenching is a hobby I enjoy - one that pays for itself!
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 07-22-2013).]
BTW, to answer your question. If cost is not a factor... then I would go with an LS. The OMG factor is through the roof, and the motor has prooved to be a great modern hot rod platform. It is also a generation newer than the L67.
Has someone changed there mind on swaps after riding in Tommy Boys car?
BTW, to answer your question. If cost is not a factor... then I would go with an LS. The OMG factor is through the roof, and the motor has prooved to be a great modern hot rod platform. It is also a generation newer than the L67.
Has someone changed there mind on swaps after riding in Tommy Boys car?
<---- did you buy Cliff a beer? 
