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re-do my 3800 swap- anyone have time this summer? by cam-a-lot
Started on: 05-29-2013 07:10 AM
Replies: 38 (1459 views)
Last post by: Formula on 07-21-2013 05:09 PM
cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-29-2013 07:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I thought I was going to be able to take time off this summer to try and tackle fixing up my half-assed swap, but it doesn't look like I will. I have a mint 88 GT, no rust, low mile Series III SC with an F23 trans. I don't want to beat a dead horse and get into who did my swap, but it is poorly done and needs to be pulled. I have been speaking with Ryan from Sinister, and after seeing my swap he suggested pulling the whole thing and re-doing it properly. Unfortunately for me, his waiting list is 2 years. Here is a crappy video of my swap


3800 swap issues video


I am at the point where I can either get this fixed, or get rid of the car and buy something else that I can get serviced. I don't have the time, tools, or experience to do this myself unfortunately.

This is what is fine
-wiring harness
-dash/electrical
-clutch,


This is what needs to be re-done
-new engine mounts (fiero X, Purple Reign, WCF or something like that)
-design and build a strong F23 mount to replace the crap that is there
-replace exhaust (likely go back to factory manifolds, maybe P-Log or ported in rear, (I like Revin's setup)
-proper dogbone and mount
-replace AC line, change evaporator/dryer, new seals and charge
-fab new air intake tube from steel or aluminum, filter in wheelwell, (similar to what Revin and others have done)
-install an XP Cam and smaller pulley. I am hoping to avoid an IC at this time, aiming for around 330 WHP
-replace heater core
-install Fieroguru 13" brake kit
-install new brake flex hoses

While I do want a nicer "looking" swap, it is not nearly as important to me as a reliable, well built swap. I don't want the engine moving around when I shift gears. Considering how much I already paid, I don't think it is too much to ask for..

In addition to cash, I can also offer laser or waterjet cutting of metal parts, any thickness or material. If you design a nice F23 mount for my car and it works, I can mass produce them for you and you sell them. I don't need or want to make any money on them. I have access to brake press, laser, etc so i can bend and cut any part that will look much better than hand cut parts and be more consistent. I can make several dozen sets for you as partial payment- you simply supply the design.

I am not one of the dreamers here that wants to discuss what is better.. a supercharged 350 or a turbo 3800...while living in my mother's basement.. I have money and am not afraid to spend it, but expect my vendor to make accurate promises and to keep them. I am fair, pay on time, but also have specific expectations and do not want to get screwed over again by another fly by night vendor. The swap doesn't need to be show pretty, but it needs to be bulletproof and reliable. I am hoping for one of the experienced guys here (DH, Justinbart, Dennis L, Mstangsbeware, BMWGuru... someone who has done several swaps and doesn't need to be "learning" on my car. It is also important that once the work is started, you do not take on other work until mine is finished. None of us want to see another FOY or Whodeanie nightmare..

If you want to make some money and have the capacity, skills, and time to do this work, please PM me. I can ship the car anywhere in the US or Canada, will provide all the parts up front and will pay a deposit. I expect the work to be done as promised on the agreed time schedule. If something goes wrong, keep me informed and I will be fair. I do NOT want to know about personal drama, ex wife problems, partner problems, bad hair day.. These are not your customer's concerns. If you make a promise to deliver the car by a certain date, then do it, or give the customer advance notice with a technical explanation of what is causing the delay.

I am not interested in discussing who did the swap or why it looks the way it does...no point flogging a dead horse. I am interested in solutions not rehashing the past or getting into a pissing match.

thanks for looking

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 05-29-2013).]

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deezil
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Report this Post05-29-2013 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for deezilSend a Private Message to deezilEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mike Gonzales....
I'm sure he can get it straightened out for you.
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carbon
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Report this Post05-29-2013 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What F23 mounts did you use originally? Out of curiosity. I know that one of the two I bought is crap as well.
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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-29-2013 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

What F23 mounts did you use originally? Out of curiosity. I know that one of the two I bought is crap as well.


I don't want to say, as the guy who made them is very defensive, so I would rather just leave the past in the past. Negativity got me nowhere.

Needless to say, I can't find a good source for these mounts, so I am looking for someone with more skills and time that I have to design and build some good mounts, possibly in conjunction with existing engine mounts from another vendor or design a new set. If they work, I would be happy to laser or water cut them, bend them on a brake press, and this person can sell them as a kit. I want others to benefit from the R&D work and finally have reliable vendor for these parts.

You can see the bracket where the shifter cables attach to the tranny is also crappy, so this would also need to be properly designed and made, as well as the throttle cable bracket.

Not interested in flame wars in this thread.

thanks

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 05-29-2013).]

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carbon
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Report this Post05-29-2013 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probably not the same then... I don't always think about the possibility of the flame out with my questions sometimes, sorry about that. Got myself in trouble on a V8 thread one time with that lack of forethought...
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Report this Post05-29-2013 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for batousai666Send a Private Message to batousai666Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:


-replace exhaust (likely go back to factory manifolds, maybe P-Log or ported in rear, (I like Revin's setup)



say.....whats ya gonna do with the old "WCF" things??
you thinking you may be just throwing them in the trash. maybe??
if they are the WCF 3800 headers.....i'll take them off your hands. i got the shipping, of course
good luck with this and i love my Supercharger...turbos are the bomb, but to step and get results NOW is where i love the SC.

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 05-29-2013).]

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nosrac
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Report this Post05-29-2013 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Custom made (made to order) T304SS 3" vband exhaust for the '88!!!!!!!!! Very inexpensive for what I am getting too!!!

Made exclusively by Fierobsessed



BMWGURU / Ryan TIG welding the headers custom made to dump @ original location



BlownFiero86's F23 mounts


Talk to BlownFiero86 about cloning his F23 mounts.
BV Motorsports also has some Whodeanie mounts that I think are very well made.

[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 05-29-2013).]

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x-thumpr-x
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Hey Pete,
If you have the rotors drilled already, we could do the brake upgrade in one day & swap in a new heater core. Just make sure you have everything needed to do the swap.

Adam

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G.T. Fieros

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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-29-2013 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the advice, guys. This is great info. That is a pretty funky looking F23 mount, but if it works, that would be great.

I did talk to Dave (BMWGuru) about those sexy headers a while ago. He is not comfortable making a set without the car being there, since he can't guarantee fit.

Nosrac, how can that custom made exhaust be made to fit without your car being there? I suppose if minor cutting or adjustments are needed, any muffler shop should be able to handle it?

Keep the advice coming please.. I appreciate it.
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Report this Post05-29-2013 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

cam-a-lot

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quote
Originally posted by batousai666:


say.....whats ya gonna do with the old "WCF" things??
you thinking you may be just throwing them in the trash. maybe??
if they are the WCF 3800 headers.....i'll take them off your hands. i got the shipping, of course
good luck with this and i love my Supercharger...turbos are the bomb, but to step and get results NOW is where i love the SC.



Once I take them off, I will PM you. Make a donation to Wounded Warriors for $175 and cover the shipping, and they are yours.

Pete
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Report this Post05-30-2013 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

Once I take them off, I will PM you. Make a donation to Wounded Warriors for $175 and cover the shipping, and they are yours.

Pete


That post is 100% full of awesome.
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MulletproofMonk
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Report this Post05-30-2013 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MulletproofMonkClick Here to visit MulletproofMonk's HomePageSend a Private Message to MulletproofMonkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:
Once I take them off, I will PM you. Make a donation to Wounded Warriors for $175 and cover the shipping, and they are yours.
Pete


Awesome x2.

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel
My HUD install thread

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nosrac
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Report this Post05-30-2013 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

Nosrac, how can that custom made exhaust be made to fit without your car being there? I suppose if minor cutting or adjustments are needed, any muffler shop should be able to handle it?



Bingo! A muffler shop would be able to make MINOR adjustments and finish it out or even replace entire system for you.
If you need to keep your trunk, the stock type exhaust (Plog, Pem) will work fine..
I'm not sure but Fieroblessed probably could make you the same type muffler connecting to the 3800 manifold.
Most aftermarket headers will require you to cut the trunk unless you get creative.
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quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

Thanks for the advice, guys. This is great info. That is a pretty funky looking F23 mount, but if it works, that would be great.

I did talk to Dave (BMWGuru) about those sexy headers a while ago. He is not comfortable making a set without the car being there, since he can't guarantee fit.

Nosrac, how can that custom made exhaust be made to fit without your car being there? I suppose if minor cutting or adjustments are needed, any muffler shop should be able to handle it?

Keep the advice coming please.. I appreciate it.


Our headers drop very close to the trunk and depending on the mounts used, the measurements can be off enough to make the exhaust not fit. I'd rather not sell an exhaust setup than have it look crooked or out of line with the rear of the car.
We can make the primaries and crossover, but to make the drop into the V-band, we really prefer to have the car on our lift.

Dave
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Report this Post05-31-2013 12:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey thats my exhaust!






It works, because my car is an 88 and so is Fierobsessed's. The only mod needed it to tie the exhaust into whatever Y-pipe you use. Like mentioned above, easy job for a muffler shop. I can tell you, the exhaust is a work of art.
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Report this Post05-31-2013 04:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:


It works, because my car is an 88 and so is Fierobsessed's. The only mod needed it to tie the exhaust into whatever Y-pipe you use. Like mentioned above, easy job for a muffler shop. I can tell you, the exhaust is a work of art.


You probably run the same mounts. You have WCF, FieroX, Fiero Addiction, and others that sell mounts. I saw Nightmare cruiser had issues using someone's mounts and someone else's axle. It was off by 1". I'd be nervous to sell an exhaust because we use Rodney Dickman's mounts on our swaps and make our own front bracket similar to WCF. I don't think this is common practice, but that is our method.
Dave
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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-31-2013 05:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
BV

That exhaust looks perfect.

Dave, I have Rodney's poly getrag mounts which are good, and the custom made F23 mount that needs to be redone

Correct me if I am wrong (I am not at all experienced in this), but if I keep using the Rodney trans mounts, my engine, trans/alignment won't change from its' current position and can be the "reference" point? So that this way, I can purchase the same engine mounts that you use, and then your headers and the same exhaust as BV has "should" work? I can order the exhaust and send it to you for fit with your headers??

Thank you to everyone who chimed in...It is soo incredibly frustrating to have spent about $14k into this car already and not being able to enjoy it..
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we drop our exhaust to the rear and not the front. It is what gives our unique sound and Ryan and I aren't going to deviate from that. We tried to run them to the front in the past, and the sound that it makes is not to our liking. Our concern is making sure that the F23 clears. I have never seen that transmission up close to know the dimensions vs the Getrag or F40
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Report this Post05-31-2013 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:


Correct me if I am wrong (I am not at all experienced in this), but if I keep using the Rodney trans mounts, my engine, trans/alignment won't change from its' current position and can be the "reference" point? So that this way, I can purchase the same engine mounts that you use, and then your headers and the same exhaust as BV has "should" work? I can order the exhaust and send it to you for fit with your headers??


When I contacted Fierobsessed, we spoke about the possibility of fitment issues. I am not worried about anything past the rear vband fitting. It is a valid concern where the pipe is routed near the oil pan. There are tons of variations on engine mounting that could cause interference. I figure if any tweaking is required, it will most likely be there. As for the front half, thats why its not welded and includes a flex section. I know I have to mock it up, lengthen/shorten as needed and weld the vband onto my down pipe. This isnt a "bolt on" per say, so some modification is required. Again, I knew this all up front. I dont mean to speak for him, I may very well have the only one he'll ever make.
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Report this Post06-02-2013 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump
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Report this Post06-02-2013 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry. I don't have the time right now.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
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Report this Post06-03-2013 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I should thank you for putting up this video it shows that your car is still running just fine, the mounts are all still holding even though according to you it is crap and you are still driving the car just fine.
The exhaust I asked you over and over to stay with the stock manifolds over the WCF crap headers which you your self cut the cross over pipe. The dog bone was either used or what ever that you brought me and said modify it to work which I did and it is still working.
I had told you before we even started your first car that welding was a work in progress for me and not always the cleanest but good and strong which it is.
keep in mind this was a Fiero getrag build originally so when the F23 conversion was done the engine had to be shifted towards the trunk to keep the axles lined up straight as the axles come out 1 inch closer to the engine block on the F23 and F40 and to retain the ignition module mounting point that you had praised your self so much the dog bone had to be angled slightly.
Can't be too bad a job though considering it is still holding and we both know you drive this car very hard which again says a lot because it is still in one piece and working just fine.
I did offer a few times to build a second dog bone and wanted to modify your shifter for more movement to get first and reverse easier which I have done with every F23 swap since but you did not want that done.
So for what you call crap and have insulted me over and over the car still runs, still drives just fine, the engine is in nice and straight nothing is broken and was all done for the cost of a bartering deal with a car worth $1,300 and you still insult me. Keep in mind in this same deal I also replaced pretty much your entire suspension with poly bushings, new springs, struts the works and completely removed the A/C system cleaned it out and reinstalled it only to have problems with the WCF headers interfering with the A/C line causing a leak. I paid out of my own pocket for an A/C guy to come to my garage and test the system for leaks before filling it only for the A/C line to blow right where it passes the header.
To end up with a car that you refused to give a receipt for that was not in near the shape it was supposed to be in, missing parts you kept and every time I tried to sell it you hijacked the thread or contacted people personally that were showing interest in the car saying I stole the car from you to kill any possible chance I gad of selling it. Funny this the car is still mine and I do own it no matter what you tried.
Stop tossing childish insults you got a good deal and had the car built the way you asked for it to be done with the parts you asked me to use.
From what I see all you need is to get rid of the headers and instal a decent exhaust system, seeing as you are no longer using cruise a much simpler throttle bracket can easily be made and that is it.
You want more power do as I suggested long ago and get a nice cam and other supporting equipment and build up this engine.
This is not meant as a flame just once again defending myself against your well lets just call it crap and giving some advice, there is no need to spend a bunch of money when all that is needed is to get rid of the exhaust you have, you want another set of F23 mounts with thicker steel I have already offered this many times but you have been too busy tossing insults to hear what I am saying. Remember your car was my first F23 swap and I said from the start if there is a problem I will fix it and would have if not for the insults and threats sent by you towards myself and my family.
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Report this Post06-03-2013 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PBJClick Here to Email PBJSend a Private Message to PBJEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FIEROFLYER...Your a good man, keep up the hard work/hobby.

cam-a-lot... It is because of people like you that I stopped doing swaps.

Pete

------------------


88 3800 turbo...10 sec Quarter Mile Member.

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Report this Post06-03-2013 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by PBJ:

FIEROFLYER...Your a good man, keep up the hard work/hobby.

cam-a-lot... It is because of people like you that I stopped doing swaps.

Pete



Just because a car is drivable, does not make it a good swap. It drives like crap, clunks, shifts back and forth. The exhaust is not the main issue, that is much easier to fix. Everyone that has driven my car agrees that the engine and trans are mounted poorly and need to be redone. The only reason it is drivable is because Joe here in Toronto has added a brace to the engine block to solid mount it to the cradle. It vibrates, but at least now it is drivable. The AC blew up all the refrigerant out before the car even got home after the swap. Crap work. 3 separate coolant hoses burst 3 separate times. Crap work. Wiring harness touched and burned on the exhaust. Crap work. 2 brake caliper bolts have come loose and fallen out on the highway. Crap work. Trailing arm bolts have come loose. Exhaust is touching and hitting the frame. Crap work. (This has nothing to do with the headers)

PBJ, you have no clue about whether my car drives properly or not: you have never seen it, so keep your nose out of it. Luke and RULOOKIN both spent a full day looking at it, driving it, and agree that the motor has to come out and be remounted properly, and yet you make a judgement based on what exactly? Your psychic ability?

Dan, I have stayed out of your threads recently and have taken the higher ground. I am not a guy you want to get angry again, so please stay out of my way and I will stay out of yours.

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 06-03-2013).]

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Report this Post06-03-2013 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PBJClick Here to Email PBJSend a Private Message to PBJEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:
PBJ, you have no clue about whether my car drives properly or not: you have never seen it, so keep your nose out of it.


I did NOT make a comment about your car. I commented about YOU! My opinion about what you typed and I read online. Its the internet, you posted I commented.....

Pete

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88 3800 turbo...10 sec Quarter Mile Member.

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Report this Post06-04-2013 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Pete MatosSend a Private Message to Pete MatosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It is too bad you are in Canada, I am wanting to do a 3800 swap in my Fiero and I definitely have the equipment and skills to fix that stuff. My current Fiero has some internal engine issues I have not been able to sort just yet and I honestly am not sure I want to. I would much rather get a newer 3800sc/4t65e and install it over spending time and money on the factory setup. I just hate to go behind someone else not knowing what they did or why. I have been in that situation before and it can often cause a lot of problems. I love the 3800 swaps they kick ass LOL. At some point my car will have that drivetrain in it that much is clear. I have built all sorts of custom cars trucks and bikes over the years but the economy here in Tn is kicking my ass. Wish you were closer , Sigh. Good luck with the car man it sure looks like a sweet one. Peace

Pete

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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

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Report this Post06-04-2013 07:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey Pete

Thanks for the reply. As mentioned, I can transport the car anywhere in the US. If you are serious, PM me please. The key thing for me is timing- I don't want to lose the car for months, since our summer is pretty short here, and I have yet to actually been able to enjoy this swap without something breaking down on me, despite over $14k spent on the car, parts, swap, etc. What I am looking for is someone who has time to get this done in a 2-3 week timeframe. Again, to recap

The bad

-fab new exhaust, may be able to reuse muffler (has shortened Camaro muffler)
-replace engine and trans mounts with something proper that doesn't move
-replace throttle cable bracket with a proper one
-replace shifter bracket at trans end (it is fine up front at the shifter)
-install smaller pulley, possibly a cam depending on cost and comfort level with doing this
-fab a proper intake tube for Northstar TB, filter in fender wall, prefer steel or aluminum
-"possibly" relocate PCM from stock Fiero location, it gets far too hot in there and causes console to warp
-install heater core and Fieroguru 13" brake kit
-install cradle stiffener
-proper tune
-replace AC line and seals, replace accumulator (it is clogged with the sealant crap from the initial swap instead of R134a)

The good

Engine and trans are very low mileage and run perfect
Wiring harness is very well made, no electrical issues at all
Completely rust free car, no problems with rusty/seized bolts
No leaky gaskets, hoses, seals at all

Thank you everyone for the advice, and please let's keep the thread positive.

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Pete Matos
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Report this Post06-04-2013 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Pete MatosSend a Private Message to Pete MatosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cam a lot,
Honestly as much as I'd like to do something like this I am quite certain there is no way in hell I could do it properly in that time frame. Honestly if I were you I would try to find someone up in Canada to do it for you or just break down and try to do it yourself. Even if you don't have the tools you can take out the cradle and work on what you can do and figure out what you want done to it and farm out the Welding or fabrication to a local machine shop. From what I have seen most guys who do this sort of thing take 2-3months let almost alone 2-3 weeks. I am sorry if I got your hopes up I am just one Guy and going behind someone else honestly goes against my better judgment and as I said usually causes lots of problems. Im sorry. Good luck with your project. Peace

Pete

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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

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PBJ
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Report this Post06-04-2013 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PBJClick Here to Email PBJSend a Private Message to PBJEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by PBJ:

cam-a-lot... It is because of people like you that I stopped doing swaps.


Allow me to elaborate.

I could fix your swap. I have done it many times, and I have significant experience. That much cannot be disputed. The majority of my swaps have even been on Toronto area cars. The thing is, you pushed some of my buttons, and I would never work with you for several reasons.

First of all, your "vendor" is a guy with some skills in a garage. It could be me, it could be Dan, it could be any John Doe with a Fiero and the motivation to undertake a swap. We aren't businessmen, we're just friends taking on projects for other friends. You want something done, you pay me for my time, and I get it done to the best of my ability with respect to my own circumstances. I do not know the entire story between you and Dan, so I will not conjecture as to how much better he could have done, or whether or not he took on a project that he knew he couldn't handle, or even just how well he made it clear to you that he was having issues. Ultimately the onus is on the mechanic to meet the requirements of the contract, but for a guy who says he's willing to be reasonable in the event of unforseen complications you have come across very coldly.

But "vendor" irks me. As formal as you may have tried to be, a friend is still a friend, and I am certain that he would not have called you a "client," by the strictest of definitions. Were I in his position, I wouldn't even consider undertaking the swap if you referred to me as a "vendor." I am not a business. I may possess the skills, time, and resources to make it happen, but at the end of the day we're still friends, so to treat it like a vendor/client relationship, however professional it may seem, would completely negate my desire to devote many evenings and weekends to the project that I could otherwise spend on family matters for the sake of helping out a friend. If you wanted a business atmosphere then you should have contracted a business to do your swap, put simply.

Second: Bulletproof. A swap might as well be Frankenstein's monster. You're taking different parts made for different vehicles, all of which were not even bulletproof from the factory, and mating them together. It is a tried and tested method, certainly, but ultimately you're expecting perfection from a hybrid machine made of components that were not intended for great durability even in their proper configurations in the first place, much less in an uncertified manner such as that of a swap. There is no blueprint for a swap. It is performed based on personal knowledge, understanding, and intuition, but it is not a process that has been defined by a manufacturer based on engineering analyses and repeated, consistent trials. It will not be bulletproof, and to expect as much is simple ignorance. The Space Shuttle, one of the most complex machines ever constructed, underwent over 17,000 manhours of inspection between each launch, yet still two were lost to unforseen accidents. Consistent perfection cannot be done.

In summary, my issue is not so much with your demands, rather, it's the offensive, belittling tone you have used time and time again. You show little respect for the work or the commitment of the mechanic, a friend no less. If you expect business results, hire a business. The rest of us still have lives and priorities despite giving up our spare time to do this kind of work. We're not being paid for doing a quick, easy job. We're being paid to offset the cost of commitment to technically-demanding labour that must conform to our own work schedules and priorities at home, thus to expect Frankenstein's monster to be a flawless creation on the principle that "the guy was paid" is entirely unreasonable.

You should consider having Joe do it next time. Alas, I'm not Joe certified.

Pete

------------------


88 3800 turbo...10 sec Quarter Mile Member.

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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post06-05-2013 06:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
PBJ

I am not looking for a friend, I have friends. I was looking for a vendor to professionally fix my half assed swap. I have seen plenty of very well done 3800 swaps that are bulletproof. By bulletproof, I am not talking about 100% unbreakable- I am talking about well thought out and assembled, and generally reliable. Mine is neither of these.

BMW Guru, Darth Fiero. Mstangsbeware and many others here are capable of doing this- I have seen their swaps. They are far more professional and reliable than what is in my car. Unfortunately for me, they are booked well in advance.

I don't know you, and have never asked you to fix up my swap. I am not looking for charity, to become your friend, or hold your hands by the river. If you are not interested in fixing my swap or offering suggestions, then skip to the next thread. I have other cars- this is just a hobby, not some emergency.

If a "friend" does a swap for me as a favor and it turns out crap, then I would never complain, since it was done as a favor on spare time to the best of their ability. When a complete stranger does work for money (thousands of dollars) it is not a friend relationship- it is a business transaction and should be handled as such. One can't accept payment for a service, and then hide behind the "I just do this on my spare time for friends" excuse.... That seems to be the favorite excuse used by many fly by night vendors here when they disappear from their customers. It is a business transaction if money is traded for goods and services.

Let's suppose a friend comes to my house and offers to help with my tile and hardwood and doesn't do a great job, I have no right to complain, since I accepted the offer of help from a friend. If a total stranger, who claims to be an expert and have done this many times comes to my house, expects a 50% down payment, asks for the other 50% before he leaves and does a poor quality job.....Does he have the right to justify it by "I only do this in my spare time, I have family, my dog is sick, I have another job...blah blah"... Absolutely not.

It looks like I found a vendor who can take on the project. Thanks to everyone who offered parts suggestions

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 06-05-2013).]

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ICCAMDFIERO
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Report this Post06-05-2013 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ICCAMDFIEROClick Here to Email ICCAMDFIEROSend a Private Message to ICCAMDFIEROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd get in touch with olejoedad!! My car should be out of there in a few days so he just might have the space. Great guy and friend! He does amazing work! Very meticulous and makes sure everything is perfect! I can send you some pictures of the work done on my car, just shoot me a pm!
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Report this Post06-05-2013 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for solotwoSend a Private Message to solotwoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes he is highly recommended in West Michigan!
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FIEROFLYER
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Report this Post06-06-2013 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Oh no I am shaking scared now does this mean you are going to insult me or my family again or more insults or how about more ratting phone calls.
Lets see you took a hack saw to the headers in the engine bay after it was done, moved things all over the place and a coolant line came loose and touched a belt and the wires touched the exhaust. Did I mention the hack saw in the engine bay maybe do you think for a second you did some damage while using that nice hack saw in the engine bay. Also a shame you took off that nice tail pipe repair kit you tried to use to fix where you cut the header with what was it a hack saw now come on and think for a second who is the butcher here.
like I have said many times all you had to do was be nice not an ass and bring the car over and I would have made up stronger mounts if needed as yours were a trial build being my first F23 swap. But no you had to call me every dirty word in the book, threaten me and insult my family and you wonder why I told you to get lost. I have driven the car a few times there is no more engine movement then any other 3800SC/manual swapped Fiero I have driven with a stock engine mount. If you think about it I recommended dual dog bones and a poly engine mount but you said no, you were very clear there was to be no cutting or welding of the chassis which a second dog bone requires. So once again grow up and if you have a problem with me bring it to my face no more cyber bullying crap like the average chicken crap baby does.
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skuzzbomer
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Report this Post06-06-2013 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skuzzbomerSend a Private Message to skuzzbomerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sweet, it's this thread again. Aside from the passive/aggressive (ok, just plain aggressive) banter, can't you two just deal with this stuff on your own?

Ya know, leave each other alone? No? Carry on
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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post06-07-2013 08:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dan

You are a moron. I offered to keep things clean and stay out of each other's threads, but you just can't help yourself. The Y pipe was removed from the car to be cut. It had to be temporarily cut, since the pipe was warped and did not clamp up. The coolant hoses that rubbed and burst were from waterpump side (Nowhere near the Y pipe), also under the air cleaner area going into the steel pipe (nowhere near the Y pipe). The wiring that touched was also nowhere near the Y pipe. In fact, please tell me WHICH coolant hoses are even close to the Y pipe??? NONE!

The pictures and videos speak for themselves regardless of what I say or what you say. The white 88 that you swapped for me was even worse... I was stupid to go back to you. Should we rehash those pictures too and annoy everyone on the forum?? I am sure that is the customer's fault too.. I have had real mechanics look at the car who have done engine swaps. Same guys drove Duane's car... RULOOKIN and 2 others. Their engines were properly mounted, nothing was rubbing, nothing was leaking, nothing was rattling. Perhaps the reason my car felt normal to you is because you are used to driving crap swaps (yours).

I found someone to fix my swap, so I am walking away from this thread... Go ahead, have the last word. It is pretty obvious that your sad little existence and self worth is defined by what you do to 25 year old discontinued economy cars and how complete strangers on the internet perceive you....A pathetic and shrinking legacy for someone who is clearly intelligent, albeit insecure and thin skinned.

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FIEROFLYER
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Report this Post06-07-2013 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't cry now little girl, all you have done is insult me since this crap started so maybe you are the problem but what ever. As the saying goes you can't please every one and in cases like you no one can. You got way more then your moneys worth and I finished off your car even though it became quite obvious you were going to and already had ripped me off on the formula that was used as payment.
In the end it was my making you wait till I finished off with a friends car before starting yours that started you down the childish route, the fact that it was a Sunday on a long weekend and I still took the time to work on your car to try and fix the way you so poorly cut the header didn't mean squat to you all you cared about was being made to wait. Yes I heard your constant complaining to your friend that came down with you. What was your words oh yes it was who does this guy think he is to make me wait I am better then him and should not have to wait for any one. Talk about an attitude problem then shortly after your insults and threats started. Either way you are too childish to openly admit you are wrong or that you are an ass so what ever enjoy paying a crap load of money for some one else to redo what does not need to be done and most likely end up being insulted by you next.
By the way I have good thick skin and normally do not pay attention to your type but when you started threatening then ratting and add in insulting my family you crossed a line that does not get forgotten. You say you have been taking the high road when this entire posting has been about you insulting me again. Now lets see a video showing the engine actually moving not just sitting there in neutral. From what I saw on the video the mounts are all still intact no broken welds or bent metal so either the stock rubber engine mount has failed or it is just a case of a stronger or second dog bone is needed both of which you were offered many times but were too busy shooting off your mouth to listen.
In the end you are an ass as pretty much every one that talks to me agrees and all your attempts to do as you stated you were going to have failed, what was it you said you were going to ruin my life for the next two years just for kicks because as you said you are ten times smarter then me and have so much more financial backing then me that you were going to use that to ruin my life.
All I have done is defend myself against your childish BS so yes please go away or even better lets meet face to face which will eventually happen as it is a small world. Dan
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carbon
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Report this Post06-07-2013 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post07-21-2013 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:
I am not a guy you want to get angry again, so please stay out of my way .........



Please don't make me angry, you won't like me when I'm angry

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 07-21-2013).]

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Formula
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Report this Post07-21-2013 05:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:
I am not looking for a friend, I have friends. I was looking for a vendor to professionally fix my half assed swap. I have seen plenty of very well done 3800 swaps that are bulletproof. By bulletproof, I am not talking about 100% unbreakable- I am talking about well thought out and assembled, and generally reliable. Mine is neither of these.


These are 25+ year old cars, I wouldn't consider any of them bulletproof.

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