Whenever I bled any of mine, I just push the pedal to the floor then let it slam back up. When it gets to the bottom, I would slide my foot off the side of the pedal. Idk why it works, but only takes a few mins and no mess. I've also not popped any of my 3 htobs.
I got the SPEC pressure plate from Jefrysuko in the mail today, thank you very much! Now I have a complete upgraded clutch. I got the replacement PCM in the mail today as well from Ryan. Tstang also stopped by and saw his engine again, while dropping off an electronic cruise control and some junk rear hubs for me to use as drilling templates.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-29-2012).]
I bet both PCM's are fine, I checked both the 12V wire for 12V's (which it had) and I checked the ground wire for continuity (which it had) before I installed the new PCM. So....I guess my next thing to try is run a new wire from the injector to the PCM, and see if that fixes it. However, my desire to work on this thing is very low at this point.
Yes, from the looks of it, I have a stock clutch master and pushrod. I HIGHLY recommend you or anyone else using a HTOB transmission with stock clutch master cylinder, to do something to prevent this from happening with a spacer on the master cylinder.
Something, anything! It has too much travel as is for a HTOB system. Hell, I even heard someone used a block of wood to stop the pedal from going too far. The problem is, it's almost impossible to watch HTOB travel without expensive micro-camera equipment.
Interesting. Just saw this. I'm using a '93(?) HTOB Getrag, with Rodney's master. Never have had a minute's trouble with it. Although it does release a bit higher than stock, I like it that way.
FWIW, I started out with a completely dry hydraulic system. After an unsuccessful gravity bleed (the loop in the hard line is higher than the reservoir) I used a hand vacuum pump to get the flow started. After that, the gravity bleed worked perfectly.
Good luck. I know it's frustrating, but you'll get it sorted.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-01-2012).]
Thanks for pointing that out, I think it's only an issue with the newer design Getrags, like the F23 and the F40. I just looked though your Getrag swap thread again, and it may be because that uses an older style of a HTOB, that it may have more travel before it over-extends. When looking at the design on my new HTOB, I can see it would be quite easy to over-extend it and ruin it.
Since it's been awhile, I'm going to put some more brake fluid in the master, do what Jncomutt suggested, and see what happens. Can't hurt.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-01-2012).]
Well I did some work today on this, and I might have found a cause for the over-extending. IDK what happened, but the clutch master banjo was cut in half and then joined by pins?! That banjo is really loose and floppy. Can someone please measure or tell me what the factory distance is between where the clutch pin goes and the start of the master cylinder?
I think just buying RD's new adjustable banjo will be good enough.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-04-2012).]
Earlier today I got my RD adjustable banjo and I installed it as short as it could go. This is what the pedal(s) look like now. Hopefully I won't need the spacer now. The pedal travel is a good amount less then it was.
But later this evening, I looked into the injector #2 issue I'm having. I found that the wire for that injector was one spot over in the connector from what it should have been. It was in 74 instead of 73. But of course the pin broke trying (is nothing an easy fix?) to re-install it in the new spot, AND it was too short, so I had to solder on a new wire. That took some time and by the time I was done with that, it was getting very dark outside so I had to quit for the day. Tomorrow I plan to fire it up and see what I get!
Nope, hence the mystery. Try it with your new htob before your other bleeding method, just for the heck of it.
I just tried this pedal trick too. It did make the pedal feel better with much less free play. Maybe the shock is 'atomizing' the remaining air bubbles? After a few minutes the free play had increased again....
Well, it looks like the injector problem is fixed. I haven't gotten any codes since the wire repair, and it does seem to run better, however it sounds like there is a small cam in it or something. Not sure if there is something wrong or what, but I did take a video of it running! http://s67.photobucket.com/..._20120405_151012.mp4
Well it has been a long day but with the help of Alex, I dropped out the cradle and transmission today. Yea the HTOB over-extended for sure, it's toast. It wasn't too bad of a job, but putting it all back together is going to be a pain. But I did it!! I haven't taken any measurements yet, but I want to find out if there is any height difference is the stock Getrag clutch and spec 2+ clutch. Also, does the pressure plate look normal in these pictures, still attached to the flywheel? I didn't think the fingers should be in that far...
Oh you used the base as a spacer. Got it. But in my case, I'm concerned over several things-
1. I'm really not sure if just reducing the travel will be enough. 2. What is the thickness of the 2.8 flywheel compared to the machined .840 3800 flywheel? 3. Why is this happening in Fiero's to newer HTOB transmissions, both the F23 and F40 are having this same problem, the F40 is just worse as it absolutely needs that spacer and an uncut 3800 flywheel.
And I wish I could see how far the HTOB is compressed when everything is installed and bolted down.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-08-2012).]
Dunno about the flywheel thickness. When I was measuring, I was looking for the distance from the bellhousing to the clutch fingers.
There was a depth difference between the fiero and the cavalier clutches. But the clutch fingers themselves were a huge factor. The cavalier fingers stick out farther than the pressure plate housing, but the fiero's do not, just like in your pics above...
In my case the fiero clutch fingers were 2.089" from the bellhousing but the cav htob at max extension would only reach out to 1.908". Maybe that ~tenth of an inch is enough to disengage the clutch but when you combine that limited travel with our now oversized master cyclinder volume, it only spells doom for the HTOB.
[This message has been edited by schmoken (edited 04-07-2012).]
As recommended, I will measure the distance between the clutch fingers of my spec 2+ clutch and the bellhousing face when I get it installed, as well as do some other measurements to see where the HTOB will be when installed. I DO NOT want this happening again.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-07-2012).]
A year or so ago when I did my f23 to 3800sc swap I ran into the same issue as Schmoken and solved it in the exact same manner been fine since, I'd since forgot about even having to have done this. Spec sells an extension for these HTOB now as far as I'm aware but I'm not entirely sure on the thickness they have. If you already have a destroyed HTOB the way me and Schmoken did it is very easy to duplicate and works well.
Originally posted by mattwa: 2. What is the thickness of the 2.8 flywheel compared to the machined .840 3800 flywheel? 3. Why is this happening in Fiero's to newer HTOB transmissions, both the F23 and F40 are having this same problem, the F40 is just worse as it absolutely needs that spacer and an uncut 3800 flywheel.
And I wish I could see how far the HTOB is compressed when everything is installed and bolted down.
#2: the distance from the flywheel/clutch face to the bellhousing is the critical dimension and is .81" to .83" on the samples of 2.8's I have come across. The dimension you really want to know is this measurement on the 2.2L engine that was used in front of the F23... it might be different that .81 - .83" that the older generation Getrag's used.
#3: There are 4 main reasons. 1 - this is mixing/matching components that were never designed to go together, if they work together is is just by luck. 2 - most are not taking the time to properly verify the range of motion of the HTOB vs. the placement/range of motion of the clutch fingers. 3 - Archie SBC kits place the flywheel/clutch face at about .6" from the adapter plate/bellhousing face, so there is .2" too much room to begin within and you must close the gap by some means. 4. The F40/3800 kits have issues because the initial measurements sent to spec to give them the HTOB range of motion were incorrect. The guy did not have the bleeder tube connected and without it the internal check ball kept the HTOB from bottoming out fully. Since this issue has been found, Spec continues to sell the wrong parts and will give you a spacer if you ask for it.
If you take the measurements correctly, you will know the placement of the HTOB vs. its range of motion.
Just for comparison sake, the HTOB on the 92-94 getrags bottoms out at 2 3/8" from the bellhousing face you wanted the fingers to be around 2 1/8" to give the clutch room for wear (fingers end up moving closer to the HTOB as the clutch disk wears).
Alright peeps, I installed the SPEC clutch today, and took my measurements. These aren't 100% precise to 0.001 of an inch, but good enough for me.
Pressure Plate fingers to bellhousing face = 2.330 inches (ish) Bellhousing to HTOB extended = 1.910 inches Bellhousing to HTOB compressed (bleeder valve open) = 2.775 inches
So, what this means is the PP fingers would compress the HTOB 0.420. If I did like schmoken did with the .330 spacer, that would compress the HTOB to .750. I'm not sure if this is too much or not.
Based on these measurements, your HTOB has .865" range of motion. For reference, the F40 HTOB has .907" range of motion and I built my flywheel to allow .200" for clutch wear and .700" for movement to disengage.
With your current setup, the HTOB almost centered in its range of motion and that clutch disk already has some wear on it. You could easily get by with a .200" spacer. You might want to call spec to see how thick their spacer is that rests between the bearing on the HTOB and the clutch fingers for the F40. If it is between .150 and .250 you could probably use it (assuming the bearing is the same between the F40 and the F23).
Now having .4" of motion should be enough to fully release the clutch, but the issue is you could easily overshoot that length of available travel... like you did. Another approach is to do some math and limit the pedal travel so that it is not physically possible for the pedal movement to overextend the HTOB. You have a junk HTOB so you can get its cylinder area, then take the stock fiero clutch master area and back into the maximum stroke at the pushrod. From there you will know the maximum allowable pedal travel and adjust as necessary.
Well, hasn't been a good day. I did get my SPEC spacer in the mail, and it looks and works great, however when Alex and I tried to install it back in the car, it just wasn't working out. It just would have taken alot more effort to try and get everything lined up and all that while in the car, then to drop it all again and do it in the garage. So that's what we did, and that is where we are at now, the cradle F23 and 3800 are now in the garage again, all apart still. Honestly didn't take much more effort to disconnect what was left connecting the engine to everything. So I'll put everything back together in the garage, fix what I need to fix, and install the cradle again. I should have just dropped everything again in the first place, but this was a learning experience for sure...just like my whole 3.4 swap was.
Pics of HTOB with and without spacer. I really like that Spacer.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-13-2012).]
Ugh, what an exhausting and very frustrating day. I attempted to mate the engine and transmission today, by myself. I fought with it for hours, and after I finally got it mated together, I found out that the engine would turn some, then just stop sharply. It ended up being the SPEC Pressure Plate was hitting the inside of the case of the F23. It was hitting where the larger Diff bearings stick out more inside the case compared to the 282/4-speed. Must have been a 4-speed pressure plate or something. So I had to take it back apart, in which it fought me just as much as going back in, but I finally got it out. I switched the SPEC PP for the stock Getrag PP I was using eariler, but I kept the SPEC clutch disk on there. I did loose some distance between the PP fingers and bellhousing face, but the Spacer will make up for it. With my dad helping me this time, it went back together MUCH easier, since that PP wasn't hitting anything inside the case. I then installed the rest of the mounts, starter, and dog-bone.