Click here to visit The Fiero Store | View all sponsors
  Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat
  The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 5 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i by L67
Started on: 10-19-2011 04:38 AM
Replies: 172 (19389 views)
Last post by: carbon on 04-03-2014 07:03 PM
L67
Member

Posts: 1792
From: Winston Salem, NC
Registered: Jun 2010


Feedback score:    (15)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 219
User Banned

10-19-2011 04:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



Introduction
This article will familiarize you with the Getrag F23, its strengths and weaknesses, and supply detailed instruction for installing it and the necessary equipment.

The F23
Getrag’s newest iteration of their five speed transaxle is the F23, which has been built from 2000 - 2010. It is of three shaft design, features a self adjusting internal throwout bearing, a synchro'd reverse, a variety of gear ratios to choose from, and most importantly - bellhousing variety; GM metric (60 degree), Opel/Vauxhall/Saab /122 pattern, and Ecotec pattern. The F23 is rated to withstand 230nm of torque (170ft/lb), but is known for its renowned strength in high power circles.

Why you should install the F23
The first and foremost reason this transmission is a viable option is its low mile availability. The F23 using the GM metric pattern is found in 2000-2002 J bodies equipped with the 2200 series engine, which statistically have been driven far less than the 25 year old M282 and HM282 / NVG-T550 of the 80's and 90's. The newer ecotec engines come mated to the F23 in many instances – a bonus for those doing an ecotec swap. The F23's mannerisms are mild, and uncharacteristic of the Getrag we know in our own circle; the M282. Shifting effort is easier, engagement is less "notchy", and the reverse gear will never grind. Servicing the F23 is much easier task than the M282. Having disassembled both, I would prefer to split the case of two F23’s, than a single M282, and I could do two of the former faster. Parts and LSD options are readily available. The power potential the F23 continually handles reliably, an option those of you with high output builds value most. Lastly, the F23 is an easier, cheaper, and better geared, swap than the F40.

Specifications


 
quote
GM technical specification on the F23: Released 2006
The Getrag F23 is a three-axis conventional transverse 5-speed manual transaxle with fully synchronized reverse gear. It features compact packaging, broad low-torque applications, and reliable operation.

The F23 has two gearsets on each of three parallel shafts – the input shaft, the output shaft, and the intermediate shaft. This three-shaft (also called three-axis) design results in a very short axial length for better packaging. There are three separate shift fork shafts, which hold three shift forks to activate the synchronizer rings for the two gearsets on each of the three gear shafts. The shift forks are activated by a cable system. The clutch release bearing is operated by a concentric slave cylinder that surrounds the input shaft in the clutch housing. A concentric slave cylinder allows more linear clutch feel than an external lever-actuated clutch and release bearing. The input shaft carries the 3rd and 4th gear synchronizer, the intermediate shaft carries the 1st and 2nd gear synchronizer, and the output shaft carries the 5th and reverse gear synchronizer. The aluminum case contains a conventional final drive gearset.

There are sintered bronze double-cone blocker rings on the synchronizers for 1st and 2nd gears, while 3rd and 4th gears use carbon fiber blocker rings, and 5th and Reverse gears use molybdenum on their synchronizers. Carbon and molybdenum are extremely durable friction surfaces that remain stable even under extreme heat.

 
quote
2010 Getrag F23 (M86): 5-Speed Transaxle for Small FWD Car and Truck Applications
2010 MODEL YEAR: THREE F23 VARIANTS TO CHOOSE FROM
• 3.63 Final Drive Ratio for Chevrolet Cobalt offers exceptional fuel-economy.
• 3.84 Final Drive Ratio for Chevrolet Cobalt offers sportier vehicle performance.
• 3.95 Final Drive Ratio exclusively offered in Chevrolet HHR.

LOW MAINTENANCE
• The F23 uses DEXRON VI ATF and is filled for life. No fluid changes are required for normal duty cycles.
• The F23’s clutch is actuated hydraulically. This allows the clutch system to automatically compensate for wear, so no clutch adjustments are necessary.

OVERVIEW
The Getrag F23 is a conventional three-shaft (three-axis) transverse five-speed manual transaxle with a fully synchronized reverse gear. It features compact packaging, broad low-torque capabilities, and reliable operation. 1st and 2nd gears are located on the intermediate shaft, 3rd and 4th gear are located on the input shaft, and 5th and reverse gear are located on the output shaft. 1st and 2nd gear have double-cone synchronizers while 3rd, 4th, 5th, and reverse have single-cone synchronizers. The intermediate rings in 1st and 2nd and the blocker rings in 3rd, 4th, and reverse are all lined with carbon friction material. The blocker ring in 5th gear is molybdenum coated. Carbon and molybdenum are extremely durable friction surfaces that remain stable even under extreme heat. The F23’s gear sets are actuated with a remote shifter that is connected to its internal shift system via shift cables. Its output shaft is mated to an open differential. The F23’s clutch has a smooth, linear feel because its release bearing is operated by a concentric slave cylinder. Getrag builds the F23 transaxle in Bari, Italy for both European and North American applications.


Bellhousings The Getrag F23 is constructed out of two aluminum case halves. One half has the bellhousing pattern and houses the flywheel, and the other half houses the gears. There are four bellhousing case sides in existence – 60 Degree, Ecotec, Opel, Saturn Vue (MG3). It is important to understand that each of these bellhousings is different from the other; mounting points, external case design, also the Opel + Vue have different shifter linkages. But it is my understanding that all of these case halves are interchangeable – IE. An Ecotec half could be matched to a 60degree half, if desired. All of the internals are 100% compatible with any case.



Flywheel The Getrag F23’s input shaft is the same spline as the older Getrag, albeit minutely shorter. Because of this, the flywheel type and contact surface may remain the same, with a distance between the flywheel face surface and engine bellhousing surface of .820”. The transmission can be used just like any other Fiero transmission. The original (correctly balanced) flywheel can be used for the Duke or 60 degree engines, the machined Fbody flywheel is retained for 3800 swaps, swaps would use whatever flywheel is normally used, and the Ecotec flywheel can of course remain in place when using an Ecotec. The one known exception is when the V8 adapter plate is used, such as with the 4.3, SBC, and LS series. The problem is double faceted. The first problem; the distance between the flywheel contact surface and the adapter plate bellhousing surface is now shorter; .600”. A spacer will be needed from SPEC to shim the HTOB to the clutch surface so that the bearing does not overextend. The spacer I used from SPEC was .270". I've drawn the illustration below for the visual learners out there.



Here is a picture of the spacer installed on the throwout bearing:



Secondly, the Centerforce flywheel that has been supplied by Archie for the SBC swaps is too large, and will need to be modified in order to clear the differential housing protrusion on the bellhousing. As many of you know the Centerforce flywheel is very deep and very wide, and because of this and the adapter plate, the ring gear rides on the outside of the bellhousing, very close to the surface. This wasn't a problem with the Fiero transmissions, because the surface of the bellhousing was flat, and there wasn't a raised area for the differential. With the F23, the differential housing and axle seal housing are raised, and get in the way of the ring gear.

Here is the difference between transmissions:



In the picture below, the transmission is not and cannot be completely seated because of this interference. It is at least, if not more, a half inch from full seat.



There simply is no way to remove enough material from the transmission housing to clearance this flywheel, without breaking through or severely weakening the case. The Centerforce flywheel uses a 153 tooth ring gear. I decided to take the opportunity to remove useless rotational mass, and decrease moment of inertia, by having the flywheel re-machined for a smaller ring gear. After a drawn out conversation with FieroGuru (many thanks), I had my alternatives.

Teeth - O.D. - Application
153: --- 12.837" --- Centerforce
148: --- 12.400" --- 91 Camaro
142: --- 11.910" --- 84'-88' Fiero

After doing the math, the Fiero ring gear was the only size which would fit. This suited me, I wanted to remove as much weight as possible. Aside from the ring landing, the face of the Centerforce flywheel also has a great deal of unused real estate. So I measured the pressure plate and drew up a schematic that I could hand my machinist.

This is that schematic:


The ring landing is .020" larger than the ID of the ring gear for a press fit. The ring gear I used is part number FRG-142W, and cost $20.00. After the flywheel was machined and the ring gear installed, I had the machinist angular inch-oz rebalance the wheel to zero - this balance is not the same for all engines, be sure you have the correct balance.

The flywheel will be noticeably lighter when returned, and will be tailored for a perfect fit. Here is the clearance once installed after machining (note: I took a very small amount away from the diff. housing, which wasn't required).



The starter will now need to be adjusted to reach the flywheel. I had the aluminum mounting block slotted, rotated the starter towards the flywheel, and shimmed to the correct position.



I also built a compact copper extension for the oil adapter for additional clearance when the starter was rotated. I found the supplies to build it at Lowes Hardware.



I might as well mention something else here while I'm at it. There will be a small amount of grinding required only for the SBC. One of the starter mount bolts gets in the way at the front side of the engine. The housing can very safely be clearanced to make room.



And again at the rear, a small amount of grinding is required to clearance the corner of the SBC.



Starter Aside from the SBC starter (covered above), all other engines can use the same starter as if the standard Getrag, Muncie, or Isuzu were used. This of course excludes the LS4.

Clutch Any clutch can be used with the correct flywheel, however it is important to keep an eye on pressure plate height because the differential housing extends into the bellhousing interior, reducing headroom. Some clutches have reported to scrub. This is a non issue with engines using an adaptor plate, because of the extended clearance.

List of known working clutches & pressure plates (engine installed on):
  • SPEC Stage 3+, and Superclamp flywheel (3800).
  • Clutchnet 6 puck sprung hub, and a 2x "red" pressure plate (SBC - .270" HTOB shim).
    -- I will update this list as clutches & pressure plates with working clearance are discovered.

    Speed Sensor The Getrag F23 uses the newer 24,000 ppm magnetic hall effect sensor, which can be found in other newer GM four cylinder transmissions. To correctly configure this input for the Fiero's 4000 ppm speedometer, a PCM which can filter the 24,000 ppm signal must be used to interface the signal along with the infamous conversion circuit. If such equipment is not available per application - say a carbed engine, the Dakota Digital SGI-5 box can be used to control the speedometer.

    An example using the 3800 and its OBDII computer:


    Installing the Dakota SGI-5:



    We will need four wires to correctly plug in the SGI-5; switched power, ground, Yellow VSS from sensor, Yellow VSS to speedometer. The yellow wire is connected to the C203 at pin "G". I recommend splicing into the yellow VSS wire on the cabin side of the C203 connector, here:



    Switched power goes to the first input, ground goes to the second, the VSS input from the transmission goes to "input", and the feed to the speedometer should be connected to "OUT 3". The four toggle switches should be "down"



    I will quote forum member Trinten's directions for configuring the box:
     
    quote
    Originally posted by Trinten in "Trinten's 'MMTS' build."
    First thing I did was use one of the "quick presets" to get it closer to where it needed to be -- I used the formula in the directions to find that my output signal had to be .33. One of the quick presets is for .5. So to do this, with Key off, push pin three to "On" (up). While holding down both the up and down buttons, turn key to On.

    Did that, confirmed that I was in the ballpark and that it took. So shut the car down, key off, and put it in "Fine Tune" mode. To do this, with key off, hold the "down" button, turn key to on, that puts it in the right setting. I then got on the highway and up to 2500 RPM (my 70 MPH point) and held the "down" button again, and the speedometer gradually dropped to the right speed.


    Clutch Hydraulics The HTOB can easily be adapted to the stock Fiero line using Roger Thelin's adapter. Roger's website. The adapter will connect directly to the Fiero's braided flex section on the clutch hydraulic line. I couldn't believe how affordable the adapter was from Mr. Thelin.



    Mounts How you mount your transmission will depend on which bellhousing you have.

    Ecotec:
    The Ecotec bellhousing is very straight forward, and again, Thelin offers a plug and play 1/8" stamped steel set of brackets that use the stock Fiero's transmission mounts. These should work very well for the Ecotec.



    60 Degree:
    The 60 degree bellhousing is not as accommodating as the Ecotec. The front anchor points for the mounts on the Ecotec are not found on the 60 degree bellhouses. The only mount provision is underneath the transmission at the end.



    The rear anchor points are still there, but the holes are not tapped, as seen here:



    Rear Mount:

    The first thing to be done is to drill the holes for the rear mount with an 8.5mm bit, and tap each hole with a 10x1.5 mm tap. At this point, Thelin's rear mount for the Ecotec will work. However, because I was working with a heavy, high torque engine, that needed to be solid mounted, I built my own out of quarter inch steel. Here is the rear mount I built, which will see compression loads as the drivetrain tries to rotate over the axle due to driveline torque about the differential:




    Front Mount: I did not like the location on the cradle that aligns with the mount point at the end of the 60* case (it is directly over the control arm, and there isn't much room), so I used the bellhousing as a mount point. Again I built the mount out of quarter inch steel, hoping to stay well within the elasticity limit. This mount will see both compression and tension axial loads as the drivetrain tries to rotate over the axle and return.



    Shifter Cables The F23 is designed for FWD cars, and subsequently, the cables are coming to the transmission from the wrong direction per our application. In the Fiero, there are currently three solutions.

  • Roger Thelin sells a kit which will rotate the shaft into an orientation much like that of the Isuzu, so that the cables will interface from the firewall. This requires the shifter assembly be removed and taken apart to install the new shaft. A small triangular piece is substituted for the up down operational leverage of the shaft. A cable mount will either need to be made or ordered from Thelin. I'm not sure which cables are ideal for this setup.

  • Have cables made that are long enough to span around the engine and mount at the back of the transmission. The cables would need to be two - three times longer than the longest Getrag cable. Additional length increases cable resistance. Not the best solution.

  • Use the stock setup with a linkage modification, a mount I designed, one stock Getrag select cable, and a custom F23 cable I drew up and had manufactured by the company who makes cables for The Fiero Store.



    The red arrow is pointing to a small section of armature that was welded on, and a ball linkage from the four speed Muncie was used at the end.

    Below is the schematic for the bracket. It should be built out of 1/8" steel in order to correctly clip the shifter cables in. The holes for the cables were made with a 1" hole saw. Two studs can be used to fasten the bracket to the shifter housing.



    Now the stock Getrag select cable, and the cable I had made, can easily be secured into place using the original Fiero C clips.



    Let me talk a little bit about why I had a cable manufactured. Some have attempted to install the F23 (and F40) using two Getrag select cables. The transmission side of the cable is perfect; however, two select cables will not connect to the shifter mechanism correctly. Specifically, the Getrag select cable cannot be connected in place of the shift cable at the shifter, it doesn't have the range. Some have remedied this by cutting the cable and threading on a longer end. FieroGuru tackled this by chopping and rewelding the shifter plate for his F40. Because I was converting a car that came with the M19 four speed, I was going to need to order both cables anyway. So I decided to have a cable custom made for this swap, to make life easier for everyone.

    I drew up this, a modified version of the Getrag Shift cable, with the correct end links and a much greater range of motion than the select cable:


    I had the cable made, and have since called in several revisions. The cable is now 12.5 inches longer than the original Getrag shift cable, so it can be routed around the stock airbox for those of you who may be using this transmission with the stock engines, or a swap with the stock airbox. The cable neatly contours the firewall. I also bought a stock Getrag Select cable from the same company. Both are adjustable, so I was able to dial the shift in range.

    I set up a merchant account with the company, and can have the cables drop shipped to you. The modified cable will cost $115.00 plus shipping. I can also supply the select cable they sell for $100 + shipping ($10 off TFS price), should anyone want one that's adjustable or can't find a used cable. I will only offer the select cable to those who are also buying the modified cable - This is only for the community, and only for those installing the F23 - I'm not in the business of undercutting TFS. If anyone wants to put together a group buy, I can of course offer them cheaper. Dec. 04, 2011 - a group buy is happening here. At this time I can offer the cable at $110.00 and free shipping if five or more cables are purchased at once.

    Reverse Light The Getrag F23 uses a transmission mounted NO switch much like that of the Getrag M282 and Isuzu MT2. It is wired in the same fashion to the c500, C1 and E1.

    Axles The Getrag F23's differential is designed for the same axle spline count as the Fiero’s. Stock axles can be used.

    Extras

    Service Bulletin: 02-07-29-001

    Limited Slip Differential

    Pictures of F23 Reassembly

    How to Assemble and Disassemble the F23

    Special Thanks

    Trinten - For allowing me to document the transmission swap I performed while his car was at my shop, the complimentary meals, and his professionalism.

    FieroGuru - For all of the helpful information he is always willing to give, for fielding my questions, and double checking my work when I needed it.

    All of the pictures, sketches, and diagrams are my own (save for those I labeled Thelin). This article is 3500+ words, and took over 20 hours of my time to write, not to mention the hours I spent documenting and coming up with the designs I've shared. If the article was helpful, and we ever meet at a gathering, I like beer. DO NOT touch my ratings bar, I love the color red. I'm serious.

    Best Regards,
    -Paul

    [This message has been edited by L67 (edited 12-30-2011).]

    IP: Logged

  • sardonyx247
    Member

    Posts: 3229
    From: Nevada, USA
    Registered: Jun 2003


    Feedback score:    (66)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 151
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 05:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    NICE

    ------------------
    "DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
    '84 Fiero, engine to be determined
    '87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
    ^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
    Las Vegas Fiero Club Parts/Sales/Service/Club
    Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

    IP: Logged

    ghost187x
    Member

    Posts: 1015
    From: El Paso, TX
    Registered: Oct 2008


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 05:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Likes this.

    IP: Logged

    doublec4
    Member

    Posts: 8062
    From: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
    Registered: Jun 2003


    Feedback score:    (17)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 145
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 05:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Fantastic write up.

    Sincerely thankful for it!

    IP: Logged

    cam-a-lot
    Member

    Posts: 1026
    From: Barrie- Ontario, Canada
    Registered: Oct 2010


    Feedback score: (3)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 69
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    wow! Thank you for the effort and informative post!

    Very nice

    IP: Logged

    fieroguru
    Member

    Posts: 8849
    From: Bryantsville, KY, US
    Registered: Aug 2003


    Feedback score:    (40)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 235
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 08:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Great job on the write up!

    IP: Logged

    Will
    Member

    Posts: 11959
    From: Where you least expect me
    Registered: Jun 2000


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 226
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Yes, you did a fantastic job with this.

    IP: Logged

    AkursedX
    Member

    Posts: 2876
    From: Royal Oak, MI
    Registered: Aug 2000


    Feedback score:    (16)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 84
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AkursedXClick Here to Email AkursedXSend a Private Message to AkursedXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    I wish there were more technical posts like this here on this board. Nicely done.

    ------------------
    '88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph (Sold and gone now)
    GM Tuners

    IP: Logged

    blakeinspace
    Member

    Posts: 5765
    From: Fort Worth, Texas
    Registered: Dec 2001


    Feedback score:    (10)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 119
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 09:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blakeinspaceClick Here to Email blakeinspaceSend a Private Message to blakeinspaceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    You can't use the F23 in a Fiero application. Prove it.... oh wait... I meant to say...

    In before trash! (I Keed... I keed!)

    Awesome write up... we need to put a Vegas over/under on how many thousands of times this thread will be viewed and how many hundreds it will eventually help.

    (I'd + you again... but already caught you for the fuel lines.... which I did get Friday. Thanks!)

    IP: Logged

    nosrac
    Member

    Posts: 3062
    From: Euless, TX, US
    Registered: Jan 2005


    Feedback score: (4)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    I vote 4 Construction Zone and a PDF copy.

    Great writeup !

    IP: Logged

    85sliverGT
    Member

    Posts: 1407
    From: Burnsville, MN
    Registered: Sep 2005


    Feedback score:    (10)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85sliverGTClick Here to Email 85sliverGTSend a Private Message to 85sliverGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Awesome write up! Just like you said it would be. Thank you for doing this, lot of my questions have been answered

    IP: Logged

    mattwa
    Member

    Posts: 7043
    From: Lorain, Ohio
    Registered: Sep 2008


    Feedback score:    (36)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 85
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Wow, this is awesome! Thanks! Now if I could actually find an F23, that would be nice.

    [This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 10-19-2011).]

    IP: Logged

    Trinten
    Member

    Posts: 628
    From: Greensboro, N.C.
    Registered: Sep 2008


    Feedback score: (5)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Thanks L67!

    The write up is awesome, very clear and on topic.

    I have been happily enjoying my car since I've had it back, with only a few hiccups - all related to the SBC and the adapter plate. My opinion on it's shifting is that it's as easy to shift as the Muncie 4 speed was, and MUCH easier to get into reverse (no grinding)!

    I'm still trying to get used to the shift pattern, though. I occasionally miss going into third and have to play with it a little - but that's on me, not the transmission.

    IP: Logged

    ALLTRBO
    Member

    Posts: 2023
    From: College Park, MD
    Registered: Mar 2006


    Feedback score: (4)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Very nice. I've been looking forward to this write-up and you didn't disappoint!
    Thank you.

    [This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-19-2011).]

    IP: Logged

    mptighe
    Member

    Posts: 3056
    From: Houston, TX
    Registered: Aug 2009


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 114
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 12:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheClick Here to Email mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Well done, good job. This should make it into the construction zone.

    IP: Logged

    Ang84Indy
    Member

    Posts: 554
    From: Ohio
    Registered: Jul 2009


    Feedback score:    (7)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ang84IndySend a Private Message to Ang84IndyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Thanks for the write-up. Well done and very informative.

    IP: Logged

    Justinbart
    Member

    Posts: 3213
    From: Flint, MI
    Registered: Sep 2009


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 120
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    gjp. I'm sure I will be using this in the near future.

    ------------------
    Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
    11.53@126.7

    IP: Logged

    FieroWannaBe
    Member

    Posts: 2118
    From: Sussex, Wisconsin
    Registered: Oct 2004


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Great report Paul, good to see your work so well documented and professional, and great resourcing. Inspiring.
    The SBC looks great too. I see the AFR heads, are they the street 195s?
    I hope it has a incredibly long duration cam and a single plane to take advantage of the flow., the exhaust looks well thought out too.

    IP: Logged

    stickboy
    Member

    Posts: 170
    From: Lebanon, PA, USA
    Registered: Feb 2011


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stickboySend a Private Message to stickboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Great Write-up!!!

    IP: Logged

    Niterrorz
    Member

    Posts: 4119
    From:
    Registered: Sep 2010


    Feedback score: (3)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 135
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiterrorzSend a Private Message to NiterrorzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    wow man ask and thou shall receive.....thanks! i gotta ask at the end is that fiero guru thats saying he loves red or you that loves red?

    [This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 10-19-2011).]

    IP: Logged

    1988holleyformula
    Member

    Posts: 4093
    From: SE MN
    Registered: Jul 2009


    Feedback score: (2)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 68
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1988holleyformulaSend a Private Message to 1988holleyformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by Niterrorz:

    wow man ask and thou shall receive.....thanks! i gotta ask at the end is that fiero guru thats saying he loves red or you that loves red?



    That'd be L67 loving the red in his ratings bar. But he said not to touch it, so I can't switch my plus to a neg for him...

    IP: Logged

    ARFiero
    Member

    Posts: 1153
    From: RAF Mildenhall, U.K.
    Registered: May 2008


    Feedback score:    (7)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ARFieroClick Here to Email ARFieroSend a Private Message to ARFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Thanks for the write-up! I am getting this transmission soon and will be contacting you about the cables.

    IP: Logged

    Sourmug
    Member

    Posts: 4493
    From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Registered: Sep 2002


    Feedback score:    (29)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 143
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SourmugSend a Private Message to SourmugEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Great information, thanks for posting it.

    Nolan

    IP: Logged

    JamesCurtis
    Member

    Posts: 2015
    From: North Platte, NE
    Registered: Oct 2003


    Feedback score: N/A
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 64
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JamesCurtisClick Here to Email JamesCurtisSend a Private Message to JamesCurtisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Great writeup! Now if someone only made the mounts for the 60* bellhousing we'd have a lot of conversions going on. Thanks for your time and effort on this, the Fiero community will certainly benefit from this writeup.

    IP: Logged

    BMTFIERO
    Member

    Posts: 1178
    From: Beaumont, TX
    Registered: Dec 2007


    Feedback score:    (18)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BMTFIEROClick Here to Email BMTFIEROSend a Private Message to BMTFIEROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Thank you x3
    +4U

    edited: after reading the complete write-up I take back my +.

    [This message has been edited by BMTFIERO (edited 10-19-2011).]

    IP: Logged

    lonewolf_305
    Member

    Posts: 306
    From: norwich, ny
    Registered: Oct 2010


    Feedback score: (1)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lonewolf_305Click Here to Email lonewolf_305Send a Private Message to lonewolf_305Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    great write up. Will be much help when doing mine. Might be in on the group buy if it happens.

    IP: Logged

    nitroheadz28
    Member

    Posts: 4755
    From: Brooklyn, NY
    Registered: Mar 2010


    Feedback score:    (26)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 97
    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Thanks for taking the time to do this, I already had a + for you.

    Now I just need to look in the other F23 threads to see whats needed to bolt up to a 3800. Still not clear on the bellhousing swap thats necessary.

    IP: Logged

    Jfrost
    Member

    Posts: 800
    From: Naperville, IL
    Registered: Jul 2009


    Feedback score:    (19)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-19-2011 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JfrostSend a Private Message to JfrostEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Amazing write-up and timing, I was actually reading a bunch of threads about this today. Its good to see so much useful information in one thread. Thanks!

    IP: Logged

    tesmith66
    Member

    Posts: 6866
    From: Jerseyville, IL USA
    Registered: Sep 2001


    Feedback score: (2)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 134
    Rate this member

    10-20-2011 06:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Excellent. This forum needs a tech article section for stuff just like this.

    ------------------
    1986 SE 350 V8

    IP: Logged

    Trinten
    Member

    Posts: 628
    From: Greensboro, N.C.
    Registered: Sep 2008


    Feedback score: (5)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-20-2011 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by nitroheadz28:

    Now I just need to look in the other F23 threads to see whats needed to bolt up to a 3800. Still not clear on the bellhousing swap thats necessary.


    2000-2002 Pontiac Sunfire or Chevy Cavalier - Only the 2200 engine vehicles - others use the ecotech pattern. From searching car-part.com it appears that the vehicle Vin "4" is the one you'd want. The Vin "F" appears to be Ecotec motors.


     
    quote
    Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

    The SBC looks great too. I see the AFR heads, are they the street 195s?
    I hope it has a incredibly long duration cam and a single plane to take advantage of the flow., the exhaust looks well thought out too.


    Yes, Yes they are. AFR 195cc Eliminator Street Heads, angled plugs. The builder said they were nicest heads "right out of the box" he'd ever seen. I know AFR has had some issues in the past, but I guess they got their QC up to par - or I just got really lucky. The exhaust was also built around the builders recommendations. The cam I went with was Comp Cams 280XFIHR13. Scott (The builder) thought it was going to be a little too mild, but he was pretty impressed with it. The big thing was finding a cam that would work well with the carb but was designed/would work with EFI. This had the best of both worlds, and it's ramp rate (an undervalued/overlooked aspect by most people) is great.

    IP: Logged

    gtxbullet
    Member

    Posts: 3973
    From: Pewaukee, Wisconsin, USA
    Registered: Apr 2008


    Feedback score:    (84)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-20-2011 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtxbulletClick Here to visit gtxbullet's HomePageSend a Private Message to gtxbulletEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    I'd a write p on an F23 going into a stock style V6 fiero (I.E. - 2.8, 3.1, 3.4)

    nice write up though

    IP: Logged

    Trinten
    Member

    Posts: 628
    From: Greensboro, N.C.
    Registered: Sep 2008


    Feedback score: (5)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-20-2011 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Since this write-up is universal for all 60* bellhousing bolt patterns (with special notes for the SBC), I would imagine all of the information above would do just that for you.

    It's my understanding* that for an F23 on a stock engine, you'd just need to modify the mounts for the F23, do all the shift assembly adjustments, get the shift cables, and !!probably!! still need the Dakota Digital for the speedometer (unless you could get the stock ECM to handle the conversion for you, which I have no idea about).

    (*my understanding isn't that extensive. So please take my statement with a grain of salt based on my own reading of the tutorial, and explanations given to me by L67 as we discussed things during the build - Hopefully L67 will answer this definitively.

    [This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 10-20-2011).]

    IP: Logged

    Kento
    Member

    Posts: 4218
    From: Beautifull Winston Salem NC
    Registered: Jun 2003


    Feedback score: (2)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 130
    Rate this member

    10-21-2011 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KentoClick Here to Email KentoSend a Private Message to KentoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Awesome thread.

    ------------------

    ****************************************

    88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252
    Time to start Working TONY!
    There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!

    IP: Logged

    RWDPLZ
    Member

    Posts: 12949
    From: San Jose, CA
    Registered: May 2002


    Feedback score:    (11)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 280
    Rate this member

    10-21-2011 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Holy crap - THIS is how you do a writeup!

    IP: Logged

    qwikgta
    Member

    Posts: 3842
    From: Virginia Beach, VA
    Registered: Jan 2001


    Feedback score:    (14)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 80
    Rate this member

    10-21-2011 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Paul, great write up, and thanks for all the work and pictures.

    Cliff, any way to make this a sticky?

    Rob

    ------------------


    88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, LS376 and a GT clip
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0

    IP: Logged

    Raydar
    Member

    Posts: 33871
    From: West ATL GA 'burbs Douglasville
    Registered: Oct 1999


    Feedback score:    (9)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 429
    Rate this member

    10-21-2011 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    This is an excellent write up.

    I have a couple of questions, though.

    You said:

    "2010 Getrag F23 (M86): 5-Speed Transaxle for Small FWD Car and Truck Applications
    2010 MODEL YEAR: THREE F23 VARIANTS TO CHOOSE FROM
    • 3.63 Final Drive Ratio for Chevrolet Cobalt offers exceptional fuel-economy.
    • 3.84 Final Drive Ratio for Chevrolet Cobalt offers sportier vehicle performance.
    • 3.95 Final Drive Ratio exclusively offered in Chevrolet HHR.


    How is it determined which F23 utilizes the 3.63 FDR?
    I wasn't aware, until reading this thread, that 3.63 was even available in an F23.
    IMHO, this makes the F23 a viable swap for torque monster, low rev, applications such as my own.

    Does the F23's internal TOB have the same fitting as the NVG-T550?
    Do you remember the price of Roger Thelin's adapter? (I had the hydraulic line adaper for my T550 fabbed locally. I'm quite certain I paid a premium for it.)

    Thanks!


    IP: Logged

    Trinten
    Member

    Posts: 628
    From: Greensboro, N.C.
    Registered: Sep 2008


    Feedback score: (5)
    Leave feedback

    Rate this member

    10-21-2011 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    .

    [This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 10-23-2011).]

    IP: Logged

    L67
    Member

    Posts: 1792
    From: Winston Salem, NC
    Registered: Jun 2010


    Feedback score:    (15)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 219
    User Banned

    10-21-2011 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



    No, the HTOB and the fitting are different, you'll need the adapter if your permanent line is unmodified. I remember what Roger charged me. I'm not going to tell you what that was, because I don't know if it's the same rate you'll receive (probably a quarter what you paid for the line you had built). Roger's too nice of a person. He told me on the phone he was going to ship the adapter before he received my money order. I told him to wise up and not ever do that, he'd regret doing it one day. I got the adapter before I was able to ship the check. (What are you gonna do?)

    My adapter was less than endless shrimp at Red Lobster.

    IP: Logged

    L67
    Member

    Posts: 1792
    From: Winston Salem, NC
    Registered: Jun 2010


    Feedback score:    (15)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 219
    User Banned

    10-21-2011 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

     
    quote
    Originally posted by Trinten:
    Unless he got some other parts from Thelin - I had written a check for $35 to Roger for the parts.


    I ordered two adapters, and shipping. You get the idea.

    IP: Logged

    BV MotorSports
    Member

    Posts: 4463
    From: Panama City, Fl
    Registered: May 2001


    Feedback score: (4)
    Leave feedback





    Total ratings: 183
    Rate this member

    10-22-2011 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

    Now this is a good thread. I'm glad to see you posting some excellent and valuable knowledge for the benefit of all PFF.

    I say this next part a bit tongue in cheek. See what you can do when you're not busy crapping in other people's threads?

    On a serious note, this type of thread shows the creative and mechanical knowledge that forces ppl to take you seriously. Take it for what you will from a long time member, good on ya.

    ------------------
    2010 WRX, w2a chargecooled & stage II
    1987 Fiero GT 3.4TDC w/ n20
    KTM 250SX

    IP: Logged

    Previous Page | Next Page

    This topic is 5 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5 
    next newest topic | next oldest topic

    All times are ET (US)

    Post New Topic  Post A Reply
    Hop to:

    Contact Us | Back To Main Page

    Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
    PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
    Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



    Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock