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The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i by L67
Started on: 10-19-2011 04:38 AM
Replies: 209 (38657 views)
Last post by: Will on 07-01-2020 10:19 AM
mcguiver3
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Report this Post08-29-2012 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does it provide any alignment or shaft support in any way?
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aaronkoch
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Report this Post08-29-2012 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mcguiver3:

Does it provide any alignment or shaft support in any way?


No. It makes no contact. The transmissions have bearings on both ends of the input shaft, and do not need / use a pilot bushing.
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Will
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Report this Post08-29-2012 06:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

but there is no contact. There is no engagement.



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My84
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Report this Post09-03-2012 06:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for My84Click Here to visit My84's HomePageSend a Private Message to My84Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i see there are 3 different bell houseings. i am thinking of swaping and was wondering what houseing i need. atm i am useing the 2.5 but plan to swap in the distant future. ( not sure what engine at this time ) .as for the F23 i plan on useing either 3.95 Final Drive out of the HHR or the 3.84 Final Drive for Chevrolet Cobalt. but need to know what bolt pattern i have. ( i think it is the 60* ) but want confermation before i put out any money.

Thanks
Steven
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BlownFiero86
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Report this Post09-03-2012 06:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You will want a bell housing out of a cavalier, sunfire, or grand am from 2000 to 2005. They have a 3.94 final drive, but if you want a 3.84 or 3.63 out of a cobalt the transmissions will split and bolt from on bell housing to another.



------------------
86GT, 3800SC, GETRAG, true duals, 3.4 pulley, comp VS cam, zzp match flow injectors, zzp power log, WCF air intake, ARP bolts, comp lifters and push rods, 90# springs, SI stainless valves, aero-force scantech meter.
Here is my build thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/122548.html

[This message has been edited by BlownFiero86 (edited 09-03-2012).]

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My84
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Report this Post09-03-2012 06:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for My84Click Here to visit My84's HomePageSend a Private Message to My84Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BlownFiero86:

You will want a bell housing out of a cavalier, sunfire, or grand am from 2000 to 2005. They have a 3.94 final drive, but if you want a 3.84 or 3.63 out of a cobalt the transmissions will split and bolt from on bell housing to another.



Thanks. that makes things less expensive if i go witht he 3.94 final. alltho the lower gears will increase the mpg. hrm - what to do, what to do.... more pondering required.

[This message has been edited by My84 (edited 09-03-2012).]

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post09-03-2012 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BlownFiero86:

You will want a bell housing out of a cavalier, sunfire, or grand am from 2000 to 2005.



When the 2200 L22 went out of production for the 2003 model year, this bell housing on the F23 was also lost.

So... Only look for 2000-2002 model years Cavalier, and Sunfire.

The Grand AM never had an L22 engine, and the LA1 3400 wasn't available with the F23 at all. So it never had the F23 bell housing that we need in it.
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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post09-11-2012 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Speed Sensor The Getrag F23 uses the newer 24,000 ppm magnetic hall effect sensor, which can be found in other newer GM four cylinder transmissions. To correctly configure this input for the Fiero's 4000 ppm speedometer, a PCM which can filter the 24,000 ppm signal must be used to interface the signal along with the infamous conversion circuit. If such equipment is not available per application - say a carbed engine, the Dakota Digital SGI-5 box can be used to control the speedometer.

Any more information on this? My speedo bounces from 120 down to 80 very rapidly (pulses) when I am driving it. Any help on this would be FANTASTIC. I am using a '98 GTP ecu and a (IIRC) '02 F23.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-11-2012).]

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Trinten
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Report this Post09-11-2012 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The instrument cluster is looking for a different pulse, one that's much slower. Which is why your needle is burying and bouncing off the stop pin. I don't know if the issue can be fixed through the ECU or not. I had to use the Dakota Digital converter to drop the pulse that was going from the transmission to the speedo.

To my knowledge (ie, not a fact!), Jncomutt was not able to get his ECU to play nice with converting the signals, but in short, you need to get the ECU to translate the signal. I don't recall if the OEM was 4k pulse or 2k pulse, 4 sounds right, but please double check.. or reread the part about the speedo and buy the Dakota unit, bypass your ECU completely.
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Report this Post09-11-2012 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mine works perfectly fine. I used the PCM output and Ryan's diagram to make a circuit so the speedo works like it should.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post09-11-2012 11:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

Mine works perfectly fine. I used the PCM output and Ryan's diagram to make a circuit so the speedo works like it should.





Can you make me one? I am electronics challenged.
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Report this Post09-12-2012 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:


Can you make me one? I am electronics challenged.


Phonedawgz (username here on PFF) makes them for $20 shipped.

Website link- http://www.reddevilriver.com/Related_Products.html It's the Speedometer buffer.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 09-12-2012).]

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Justinbart
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Report this Post09-12-2012 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I believe someone on here sells it for a reasonable price. PM mattwa, I think he purchased one. (I don't want to get sued )


------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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Report this Post09-12-2012 12:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ended up with 23190 for the PPM with 25.6" tire diameter. The 98 gtp is 24000 I believe so it should be close when you get the circuit hooked up. Just have your tuner tune your tune so you can watch your speed while you speed.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post09-12-2012 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

I believe someone on here sells it for a reasonable price. PM mattwa, I think he purchased one. (I don't want to get sued )



LOL now that was funny!
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85fierogtmaster
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Report this Post09-28-2012 12:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85fierogtmasterClick Here to visit 85fierogtmaster's HomePageClick Here to Email 85fierogtmasterSend a Private Message to 85fierogtmasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i have a 2.8 88 engine in a 85 4 speed fiero. so my question with trans would i need to get that would bolt up directly?
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fierolover87
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Report this Post02-05-2013 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierolover87Click Here to Email fierolover87Send a Private Message to fierolover87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wanted to make sure I get this right. I can buy an F23 from a 2000-2002 Cavalier, an F23 out of a newer Cobalt, install the bell housing from the Cavalier to Cobalt trans, and bolt it up to my 2.8? I understand to idea of making proper mounts and shift linkage, but I just want to make sure that I'm 100% clear on the fact that the bell housings are interchangeable. Oh, and what clutch should I use? I'm not totally clear on that. I want to stick with my 2.8.

Mike
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Trinten
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Report this Post02-05-2013 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You are correct. It's the bell housing that's the big deal as far as being able to bolt it up to V60 applications (like the 2.8, 3800, etc).
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Justinbart
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Report this Post02-05-2013 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had to grind down the input shaft for the 3800. Might not have to on the 2.8. I don't know. See my sig.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

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fierolover87
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Report this Post02-06-2013 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierolover87Click Here to Email fierolover87Send a Private Message to fierolover87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

You are correct. It's the bell housing that's the big deal as far as being able to bolt it up to V60 applications (like the 2.8, 3800, etc).


 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

I had to grind down the input shaft for the 3800. Might not have to on the 2.8. I don't know. See my sig.



Thank you guys!
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Report this Post02-06-2013 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
To my knowledge (ie, not a fact!), Jncomutt was not able to get his ECU to play nice with converting the signals, but in short, you need to get the ECU to translate the signal.


This is correct. I was NOT using a GM PCM, and therefore didn't have that speedo OUTPUT to use. My ECU read the sensor from the transmission just fine with no converting whatsoever. However, since my ECU doesn't have a speedo out, I was unable to get my speedo accurate using the old dip-switch style DD Converter directly between speedo head and transmission. I didn't spend much time with it, just plugged it in and flipped the switches, it was close at driving speeds but horrible at parking lot speeds. I just said screw it, and learned my rpms per gear and would occasionally glance at my tablet display.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 02-06-2013).]

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Report this Post02-06-2013 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The original trans seeding unit puts out 4,000 ppm (pulses per mile) and all the newer trans outputs are 24,000 ppm. I use the same cicuit and wired it in from the speed out of the CPU to the dash. I installed mine on a waffer disc and put it inside a relay housing that I gutted. I then mounted it on the passenger side with the fan and fuel pump relay. Mine is working great and by checking multiple time by GPS it is incredibly accurate. The parts only cost a few bucks at radioshack and was really easy to install.







------------------
86GT, 3800SC, F23, true duals, 3.4 pulley, comp VS cam, zzp power log, WCF air intake, ARP bolts, comp lifters and push rods, 90# springs, SI stainless valves, aero-force scantech meter.
Here is my build thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/122548.html

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Purple86GT
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Report this Post02-07-2013 07:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If doing a 3800SC swap, I recommend installing the buffer on the PCM VSS OUTPUT to the Fiero speedometer. This will allow you to tweak your speedometer to match different wheels etc.. by flashing your PCM. If you go from the trans direct to the Fiero gauges, you have to redo your buffer to make adjustments.

I love the idea of making the buffer into a relay case! Awesome idea! Man Fiero owners are creative!


I have 2 concerns...

#1: I never heaard of anyone grinding the input shaft to mate a F23 to a 3800SC.. This is a first.. Anyone else have to do this???

#2: I'm still not sure about HTOB spacer on the 3800SC with .840 flywheel... and if a spacer is used, do you still need a clutch pedal stopper??
Cheers!


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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-07-2013 08:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Purple86GT:

#1: I never heaard of anyone grinding the input shaft to mate a F23 to a 3800SC.. This is a first.. Anyone else have to do this???


Justin used the ecotec FY1 input shaft, which was slightly longer than the typical 60º bellhousing input shaft.
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BlownFiero86
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Report this Post02-07-2013 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I grinded the splines off the end of the input shaft of the f23 so it looked just like the 282 input shaft. I used a cordless drill with an allen socket and had my dad run the drill on the intermediate shaft while I took a grinder and ground down the splines to a wrap of masking tape I put on the input shaft as a stopping point. Because it was spinning the whole time when I stopped it was perfectly round. Also, if you use the spacer on the htob (which I recommend) you do not need to have a pedal stop.
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Will
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Report this Post02-07-2013 11:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Purple86GT:

I love the idea of making the buffer into a relay case! Awesome idea! Man Fiero owners are creative!








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Jncomutt
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Report this Post02-26-2013 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Purple86GT:

#1: I never heaard of anyone grinding the input shaft to mate a F23 to a 3800SC.. This is a first.. Anyone else have to do this???



I did some measuring yesterday. The FY1 input shaft is approximately .40" longer.
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K-Z
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Report this Post03-31-2013 11:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for K-ZClick Here to Email K-ZSend a Private Message to K-ZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ok I've read this entire thread and have come up confused. Which f23 has the 3.84 fd with the 60 degree bellhousing? Or is the only ratio with the 60 degree 3.94? Ithought I read earlier that the 60 degree had 3.84 but then someone posted it had 3.94. Any clarification would be great. I need to replace my getrag so I'm just going to do this swap but have no idea what I'm getting myself into. Are the only extra componants needed the modified cable and brackets (If I'm mounting it to a 3.4)? What happens with the slave cylinder?

------------------
Grace and Peace
-Kaleb



Romans 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

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Report this Post03-31-2013 11:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by K-Z:

Ok I've read this entire thread and have come up confused. Which f23 has the 3.84 fd with the 60 degree bellhousing? Or is the only ratio with the 60 degree 3.94? Ithought I read earlier that the 60 degree had 3.84 but then someone posted it had 3.94. Any clarification would be great. I need to replace my getrag so I'm just going to do this swap but have no idea what I'm getting myself into. Are the only extra componants needed the modified cable and brackets (If I'm mounting it to a 3.4)? What happens with the slave cylinder?



The 60 degree has 3.94, I think the 3.84 is a newer model year F23 that has the Ecotech bellhousing. Clutch line goes into the HTOB with Thein's adapter as shown on the first page.
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Report this Post04-01-2013 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
He's right, 60 degree is only in 3.94 but you can swap a 3.63 diff from the Ecotec trans into the 60 degree case, or swap the bellhousing on the Ecotec trans.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 04-01-2013).]

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K-Z
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Report this Post04-02-2013 03:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for K-ZClick Here to Email K-ZSend a Private Message to K-ZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

He's right, 60 degree is only in 3.94 but you can swap a 3.63 diff from the Ecotec trans into the 60 degree case, or swap the bellhousing on the Ecotec trans.



can you buy just the bellhousing?
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Report this Post04-03-2013 01:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by K-Z:


can you buy just the bellhousing?


Technically yes, but good luck finding someone who would do that for you and not rip you off in someway.
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Will
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Report this Post04-03-2013 06:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most likely cheaper to buy the whole transmission.
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carbon
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Report this Post05-03-2013 03:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Most likely cheaper to buy the whole transmission.


No kidding, $150 for one with less than 60,000 miles on it, 16 miles away from you K-Z, at Fagan Auto Parts in Piedmont, AL.
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Report this Post05-04-2013 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I'm still a little confused about which clutch,pressure plate, and TOB combo works on the F23 swap with the 3800?

Does anyone have the part numbers or what I would need to order from Spec?

Thanks!
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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-05-2013 08:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have the Spec 3 on mine, but it is pretty harsh. From what I hear, the Spec 3+ has better road manners.

I am using the same clutch that was in my stock Getrag before that blew up.
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Report this Post05-05-2013 11:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's the clutch and pressure plate I used on my swap, it was to an SBC, but the parts were designed for a Fiero.In my amateur opinion, I think they're great. They were made by a company called clutchnet ( http://clutchnet.com/ )

EDIT: I just tried to use my part numbers from my receipt to look it up on their website, not there. Looks like they reordered their inventory. The udpated clutch number could be 6BS3881 or 6BS3771, and pressure plate RP3771/RP3881 (the number difference is from their listing of it being a 4sp Fiero or a 5Spd Fiero).

They also have packages, might want to look/call about this one - http://clutchnet.com/index....irtuemart&Itemid=140 Says it'll hold up to 650 lbs of torque

(original order info below)
67005CR2 - 6 button E-Z Lock (sprung hub) clutch for Pontiac Fiero

15704R - Red 2X racing level pressure plate for Pontiac Fiero

After shipping, I paid around 430 dollars.

I don't see why you couldn't use the same parts, or even ask them to step up the pressure plate if you're worried about slipping.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-05-2013).]

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Purple86GT
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Report this Post05-07-2013 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Purple86GTClick Here to Email Purple86GTSend a Private Message to Purple86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anyone have any designs or instructions on how to make your own F23 mounts? FieroFlyer is pretty busy and I need a backup plan. I basically need that car done in a few weeks. I have a decent flux core mig.

Thanks!
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mattwa
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Report this Post05-07-2013 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Purple86GT:

Anyone have any designs or instructions on how to make your own F23 mounts? FieroFlyer is pretty busy and I need a backup plan. I basically need that car done in a few weeks. I have a decent flux core mig.

Thanks!


The 1st post of this thread does? And my 3800/F23 thread also shows my ideas/method of mounting the power-train as well, no real measurements because there are different factors between each setup.
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Jncomutt
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Report this Post05-07-2013 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by doublec4:

So I'm still a little confused about which clutch,pressure plate, and TOB combo works on the F23 swap with the 3800?

Does anyone have the part numbers or what I would need to order from Spec?

Thanks!


Spec 3+ with superclamp pressure plate and .840 flywheel will require no grinding to the diff area.
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