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Need Quad 4 conversion info by Learning Curve
Started on: 09-12-2011 01:13 AM
Replies: 27 (814 views)
Last post by: Quad Raider on 07-12-2012 01:07 PM
Learning Curve
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09-12-2011 01:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Learning CurveSend a Private Message to Learning CurveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hi,

I'm new to forum and may not be posting in correct area.

I've been trying to find information on converting my 84 2m4 to a quad four. I've done a web search,.. (not a strong point for me) and found little. I have been to several sites but nothing in depth. I tried the search here using "quad 4 conversion" with no result.

If anyone is aware of a good build with pics and lots of info I'd be very appreciative.

------------------
Mick

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Niterrorz
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09-12-2011 01:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NiterrorzSend a Private Message to NiterrorzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i know there is at least one person that has swaped the ecotech in but for that you need a new transmission as the ecotech does not bolt up to the fiero trans. do a search in the tech section for ecotech swaps and youll find a bit of info.

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BlackEmrald
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09-12-2011 04:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlackEmraldClick Here to Email BlackEmraldSend a Private Message to BlackEmraldEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The quad 4 is an earlier engine than the Ecotec so I'm not sure they would be the same install.

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09-12-2011 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

other than being 4 cyilnders, and coming in the same cars, the quad 4 and ecotec have nothing in common.

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you want the quad 4 over the ecotec? The ecotec is lighter, more aftermarket, newer (easier to find), cheaper to buy, powerful (for a 4 cylinder).

At this point I'm not sure the quad 4 has anything to offer, plus I've not had any good experience with them in cars they came in.

-Brandon

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Learning Curve
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09-12-2011 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Learning CurveSend a Private Message to Learning CurveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't know enough about either engine to have an informed preference. My interest in the quad 4 was based on just a couple of things. That it used a getrag trans which would allow me to keep my stock axles, (or at least that was my hope). And from what I've read there's not much required to get 200-225 hp from one.

I like the idea of an engine that's lighter and more powerful. I'll read up on the "ECOTEC"

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GADJet
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09-12-2011 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GADJetSend a Private Message to GADJetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Why dont you just save your money and buy a car with an ecotech already swapped in it? Here is an 88 Coupe with an ecotech for $3,500.00 http://littlerock.craigslis.../cto/2582165833.html
You cant beat that with an egg beater.

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qwikgta
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09-12-2011 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Years back all I wanted to do was a 180hp Quad 4 swap. But now a days, a 3800 motor would be easier to do. Non SC still get you 200+HP, and all the bugs are worked out.

Does anyone have an Ecotec swap with all the bugs worked out? I know we have a few on the fourm, but are they daily drivers?

Some good things for the Quad 4 motors are they are a cheap engine to buy, and parts are cheap to fix. OBD-1, (ECM has been hacked, easy to modify). Has been done many times, with no known install problems. It has to be an easier swap (than Ecotec) to do. Motor and trans are a bolt in (basiclly), harness mods can't be all that much.

My understanding is that the Ecotec is still an difficult swap to do, still has bugs to be worked out and will cost a good chunk of money (for 150hp). Can the turbo / SC motors be used, or is there still issues with hacking the ECM/PCM?

I have said all along, that I feel the Ecotec could be the next "go to" engine for future Fiero swaps, if it can be sold in kit form, and done cheap enough. They will be filling up Junk yards soon (already) and can give a driver 30+ mpg, 200+ HP, and if you have a problem on the road, any GM dealer can help you out.

Rob

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09-12-2011 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The Quad Four engine is basicslly an obsolete engine and not an easy swap. There is also no new development, zero aftermarket support and they are hard to find with reasaonable mileage. You will need the matching trans for a Q4 swap just like with the Ecotec. on the other hand the Ecotec is modern has tons of aftermarket support, you can get great mileage while making decent horsepower and parts are everywhere. Roger Thelin of Florida makes Ecotec swap conversion parts and can give you info on how the swap is done.

------------------
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mwhite
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09-12-2011 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mwhiteClick Here to Email mwhiteSend a Private Message to mwhiteEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

If you really have your heart set on a quad 4 and are in need of parts. Talk to the guys over at quad4forums.com. Its a small niche of enthusiasts. There are a couple of guys there that can help you out with some performance goodies. Eventually you will end up talking with draftinwitjr, he's a pretty descent guy with a good rep.

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Learning Curve
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09-12-2011 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Learning CurveSend a Private Message to Learning CurveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I did a bit of reading today, and looked at some Eco swaps. It looks to me that these are still in the developing stages. There seems to be shifter, fuel, electrical, and engine management issues that are not easily resolved. At least not for my ability. I guess my stronger suit would be welding/fabricating. Electrical and engine management is this vast chalkboard of symbols and formulas beyond my comprehension, which makes any conversion daunting. I am from the age of "you were a genius if you could make a quadrajet work correctly".

I wish to build a road car, I want it to be agile and responsive with good handling characteristics. I thought lightweight, with a close ratio trans and a high rev engine would make a good combination. I owned an 86 2m4 a few years back. I loved the car, but felt there was a fair amount of room for improvement in handling and performance.

I'm not "against" an Ecotec swap,.. but the wiring looks to be a nightmare from my perspective. As far as the shifting issue I would wonder if the F40 could be adapted.

I've had a few projects, and the number one killer is being overwhelmed by the requirements (skills/financial) to complete the project. My best estimate at this time is the quad 4 would be easier in both of those areas.

Whats odd is, I have heard of this conversion several times,.. seen the engines in the car, and cant find a single informative online build.

------------------
Mick

[This message has been edited by Learning Curve (edited 09-12-2011).]

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pontiackid86
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09-12-2011 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ecotec is a much better engine to go with and there plentyful... they have some kick to them i will say.. i have a solstice with the ecotec in it.. not the fastest thing in the world but i can burn stock civic's in it no problem...

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09-12-2011 11:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Its actually more simple than you think, I'm guessing that you were probably mainly reading up on wtfb's thread? Check this thread out, I made it before I decided to do the swap. Theres some good info on it:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/116713.html

I ended up going with Fosgatecavy's swap harness and the megasquirt system. The shifter/ fuel deal isnt anything to sweat about really, swap out the fuel pump for a higher pressure unit and you're set. The shifter needs to have a simple bracket welded up to reverse the shifting action of the transmission. Electrical, if you go with megasquirt doesn't seem all that horrible- then again I was looking at it today and it did make me a little haha.

I'd say the actual tuning and mechanical mounting is probably most difficult. You need to weld up brackets to the cradle to use cavalier/ sunfire mounts, also the crossmember needs to be cut and a new one welded in a different location. Exhaust is simple if you're using a 4-2-1 header with some cutting/ welding. Thats about all there is to it.

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09-13-2011 01:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

"The Quad Four engine is basicslly an obsolete engine and not an easy swap."

"At this point I'm not sure the quad 4 has anything to offer"


Gentlemen, please, a little respect..........

The Oldsmobile Aerotechs were a series of experimental high-speed vehicles created between 1987 and 1992 incorporating the latest in performance technology with the intention of breaking multiple automobile speed records. The first such car was driven by four-time Indy 500 winner A.J. Foyt to a world closed-course speed record of 257.123 mph (413.788 km/h) on 27 August 1987 at the 7.712-mile (12.411 km) test track near Fort Stockton Texas. Prior to this, on 26 August 1987, the car had posted a top speed over a mile of 267.88 mph (431.10 km/h). The car consisted of a March Indycar single seat chassis enclosed in an extremely efficient aerodynamic body shell. It was powered by a highly turbo-charged version of the 2-litre Oldsmobile Quad 4 engine. The Aerotech body was designed by GM Design staff and was one of the sleekest vehicles ever developed for use on a high speed track. The design of the Aerotech included the capability of adjusting underbody sections to control the distribution of downforce, front to rear. Oldsmobile produced three versions of the original Aerotech to prove the capabilities of the company's Quad 4 engine. Two were short-tailed (ST) versions and one was long-tailed (LT).


AJ was hitting 290 on the straights and never used all the available power. I think this record still stands. It's all in the presentation.........

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 09-13-2011).]

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pontiackid86
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09-13-2011 01:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by weaselbeak:

"The Quad Four engine is basicslly an obsolete engine and not an easy swap."

"At this point I'm not sure the quad 4 has anything to offer"


Gentlemen, please, a little respect..........

The Oldsmobile Aerotechs were a series of experimental high-speed vehicles created between 1987 and 1992 incorporating the latest in performance technology with the intention of breaking multiple automobile speed records. The first such car was driven by four-time Indy 500 winner A.J. Foyt to a world closed-course speed record of 257.123 mph (413.788 km/h) on 27 August 1987 at the 7.712-mile (12.411 km) test track near Fort Stockton Texas. Prior to this, on 26 August 1987, the car had posted a top speed over a mile of 267.88 mph (431.10 km/h). The car consisted of a March Indycar single seat chassis enclosed in an extremely efficient aerodynamic body shell. It was powered by a highly turbo-charged version of the 2-litre Oldsmobile Quad 4 engine. The Aerotech body was designed by GM Design staff and was one of the sleekest vehicles ever developed for use on a high speed track. The design of the Aerotech included the capability of adjusting underbody sections to control the distribution of downforce, front to rear. Oldsmobile produced three versions of the original Aerotech to prove the capabilities of the company's Quad 4 engine. Two were short-tailed (ST) versions and one was long-tailed (LT).


AJ was hitting 290 on the straights and never used all the available power. I think this record still stands. It's all in the presentation.........




Even still though the ecotec is a much better built engine.. ecotec drag cars can run up to 1000 HP on there stock block.. any more than that and theres problems but still that impressive for a 4 banger

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Learning Curve
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09-13-2011 01:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Learning CurveSend a Private Message to Learning CurveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

There seems to be a lot of forum support for the ecotec. From what I read, it looks like the price tag to get it up to 200hp could be a bit. What would a stand alone system cost? what all is in that? does it require me to have a laptop, and program stuff?

Will an F40 bolt up to the ecotec?

------------------
Mick

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cooguyfish
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09-13-2011 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Learning Curve:

There seems to be a lot of forum support for the ecotec. From what I read, it looks like the price tag to get it up to 200hp could be a bit. What would a stand alone system cost? what all is in that? does it require me to have a laptop, and program stuff?

Will an F40 bolt up to the ecotec?



there are cars the F40 came bolted to the ecotec I believe, if any of the saab's with 4 cylinders came with a 6 speed than there you go.

Why not the F23 5 speed though? It's supposed to be one tough little trans, tough like jncomutt was running over 500 HP through one and never managed to break it (and he tried).

I think the forum support is mostly because the real quad 4 (not that 2.4 thing, the 2.3) has been out of existence since 95, which means even the newest ones have 16 years on them. They aren't cheap in my area, they aren't easy to find, there is no aftermarket for them, and this will only get worse over time.

Ecotecs however are a new and coming engine, they are everywhere, they aren't expensive and they are pretty swell engines.

Now, back on your questions, I don't know what a stand alone would cost, but a megasquirt is less than $300 if I remember correctly. Yes you will need a laptop and have to program it, but lot's of people share there "work," so you should be able to find a base tune on the internet that would need just minor tweaks to get it running good.

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pontiackid86
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09-13-2011 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Learning Curve:

There seems to be a lot of forum support for the ecotec. From what I read, it looks like the price tag to get it up to 200hp could be a bit. What would a stand alone system cost? what all is in that? does it require me to have a laptop, and program stuff?

Will an F40 bolt up to the ecotec?



I wouldent say that.. You can get a good amout of power out of simple add ons.. headers exhaust big bore TB high flow cat ETC


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Quad Raider
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09-13-2011 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad RaiderSend a Private Message to Quad RaiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Check out this thread for more on the Quad 4 swap:

http://www.quad4forums.com/...owthread.php?t=18988

I'm in the early stages of this swap myself ('92 GTZ Quad/5 speed into an '87 Fiero Coupe). One of the Quad owners on that thread is making good progress and has his Quad mounted in his Fiero cradle already. It's not a difficult swap, just time-consuming. I've been taking my time gathering parts since my GTZ is my daily driver and I want to minimize the time between parking it and being able to drive the Fiero. I've also been fixing other issues (headlights, battery relocation, interior).

Contrary to some of the earlier comments, the Quad 4 is a fine engine that offers a great mix of power and economy. I've put 80,000 miles on mine in the last 3 and a half years. I get 35+ mpg on the highway and have to fight the urge to stomp on the gas when accelerating up an on-ramp. The Quad4 forum is full of people who love the engine, love sharing their expertise, and will help you find parts. I see lots of Quads in the local pull-a-part yard here in the Tulsa area, though they're usually the later 2.4 version.

I can't wait to get my swap finished.

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09-13-2011 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My Q4 got 28mpg city and 41 hwy (75+ in MT). I loved it so much that it is going in my other Fiero.

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09-13-2011 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Check out this thread for more on the Quad 4 swap:

http://www.quad4forums.com/...owthread.php?t=18988

I can't wait to get my swap finished.


fourpoint9 alos has that build here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/086515.html

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09-13-2011 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SynClick Here to Email SynSend a Private Message to SynEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:


there are cars the F40 came bolted to the ecotec I believe, if any of the saab's with 4 cylinders came with a 6 speed than there you go.



the Saab 9-3 had the F40 with ecotec bolt pattern, just a quick look on car-parts and there are plenty available. but they are quite a bit higher than the high profile bolt pattern out of the Pontiac G6.

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nitroheadz28
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09-13-2011 03:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Learning Curve:

There seems to be a lot of forum support for the ecotec. From what I read, it looks like the price tag to get it up to 200hp could be a bit. What would a stand alone system cost? what all is in that? does it require me to have a laptop, and program stuff?

Will an F40 bolt up to the ecotec?



200hp is very easy, just source the parts from GM's LSJ ecotec (Cobalt SS/ Ion Redline)- it will cost you anywhere from $800-1200 (thats total with all the hardware/ injectors/ etc). On stock internals, you can run about 250hp safely. You don't need any other mods really, just throw that on and tune/ make sure you have an exhaust that will flow enough for it. The bare bones MS system I think is somewhere in the $300 range, not sure. I paid Fosgate $450 for my harness/ MS setup, he loads a base tune onto the ECM so its pretty much plug and play. Basically just hook the wires up to each respective sensor/ whatnot, and you can fire it up and start doing the fine tuning. Theres a LOT of support for the MS system so tuning shouldn't be too hard. You'll just need a laptop+ the cable to plug into the ECM, everything you need to tune the engine comes with MS- except for a wideband gauge to dial in your AFR.

If you want to use the F40, plan to dump an extra $2k at least into this project. If you go with the F23 5 speed, you'll have a really durable tranny with decent ratios that will bolt right up to the stock Fiero axles.

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Learning Curve
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09-13-2011 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Learning CurveSend a Private Message to Learning CurveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I want to thank all who have taken the time to "cheer" for one engine or the other. After reading MANY pages of armchair debate with tid bits of hard data tossed in for effect, I was overwhelmed. But I backed up away from it, viewed my goals and decided to go with my first thought, which is to install the quad 4. There is no doubt in my mind that an ecotec has greater performance potential,...... It should. Just as one would expect the quad 4 to be superior to a cosworth vega.

What I'm wanting to build is a "street car" with somewhere around 200hp. If I could easily do that with my 2.5 Iron Duke, that is the route I would go. The performance potential of any particular engine isnt a large factor in the selection process as long as the upper end of anything I might need is met. ie. If all I'd ever want is 300hp, the ability to go to 1000 is not an issue. The odds are high I'll be content with 200,.. heck, I drove a stock 2.8 fiero and thought it was fun. If I can make the car handle to where it didnt twitch on irregular surfaces, sudden elevation changes or hard cornering I might push for 300hp, but its not likely. It takes quick reflexes, skill and experience to fully appreciate a 300 hp sports car that works.

Also there is a semi nostalgic feeling,.. that although fieros never came with a q4 they would have. To me, an ecotec would seem more in place if installed to an 88 gt that had custom panels and a chopped top. But its all preference.

So, I have a better informed decision, and while looking though all the comparison articles did stumble on some build info, (that's what the OP was about) .

I'm not sure at what point I should start any kind of build log or even where to post, so I guess I'll wait til I have the drive train and wiring. The car I'll be building was a "freebie" with a froze engine. My goal is to have it on the street next summer,.. If I start now I might make it.

Mick

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09-14-2011 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



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03-07-2012 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kazewClick Here to Email kazewSend a Private Message to kazewEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It all boils down to one question Mick, what engine do you want? Sounds to me like you really want the quad so don't be swayed from it, go for it. So what if its obsolete, many would argue that our Fieros are obsolete no matter what engine it has lol plus its still better than the duke and you'll have fun doing it. Its better to find out that its not what you thought it would be after doing it then always wondering why didn't I. The ecotec or something else will still be there. Robert

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03-07-2012 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for starlightcoupeSend a Private Message to starlightcoupeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Learning Curve:

There seems to be a lot of forum support for the ecotec. From what I read, it looks like the price tag to get it up to 200hp could be a bit. What would a stand alone system cost? what all is in that? does it require me to have a laptop, and program stuff?

Will an F40 bolt up to the ecotec?



I've been looking for another Fiero and checked engine possibilities and ran across one just a few miles north of where I live and probably within 400 miles of where you live. http://eugene.craigslist.org/mcy/2832978306.html I think I settled on another 3800 or 3900--a great engine in my estimation.

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07-12-2012 11:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dre13StyleSend a Private Message to Dre13StyleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I know i am coming into all of this late but i recently bought a 84 fiero that had a quad 4 motor swamp. It came from a company in colorado. While it is a neat little car and plenty of pep however i dont think i would purchase another one or consider the swap myself. There is so many things like wiring issues and the shifter set up that poses problems. Mine has the GTZ 5spd as well and its a nightmare all around. I would say a 3800 motor or the cadillac is really a better direct bolt in

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07-12-2012 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Quad RaiderSend a Private Message to Quad RaiderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Is it a nightmare because the swap wasn't done properly?

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