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How is the Fiero as a sports car? by Rn2016
Started on: 08-31-2016 04:46 PM
Replies: 227 (3016 views)
Last post by: dobey on 09-19-2016 08:48 AM
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Report this Post09-01-2016 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


This is mostly nonsense.

The Fiero was a better car than the first gen MR2, but it was cancelled, while the MR2 lived on and got more upgrades and restyling. The Miata didn't come out until after production of the Fiero had already stopped, and it only made 100 lb-ft of torque, and at 5500 RPM at that. Sure it only weight 2000 lbs, but it was hardly "powerful." The Fiero is hardly a monstrous overweight beast either. Sure it's not a tiny tin can like the Miata, but at an average of 2800 lbs, it has a several hundred pound advantage over the Corvette and Camaro, which at the time of the Fiero's production, were just starting to get back over the 200 HP mark. The Fiero GT and Camaro Z/28 had very similar 1/4 mile times.

Stop comparing the Fiero to things which didn't exist at the time, and attempting to claim those who don't share your personal opinion on the matter don't know what they're talking about. A stock Fiero GT or Formula, or a V6 SE with WS6, are in fact decent sports cars of the age.


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Report this Post09-01-2016 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:

Yes, I want stock best bang for buck no mods. I'm looking for an affordable mid-engine sports car to have fun with without having to rebuild the whole thing for it.



Cost of repair and maintenance should be considered too.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageClick Here to Email fierosoundSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:

... I want stock best bang for buck no mods. I'm looking for an affordable mid-engine sports car to have fun with without having to rebuild the whole thing for it.


A Fiero is probably not for you...

It's a fun to drive, sporty looking, commuter car that we enjoy.

Maybe one of these?
http://www.roadandtrack.com...ble-mid-engine-cars/
http://www.edmunds.com/car-...r-25000-or-less.html


------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Which Porsche? The Fiero can certainly stand up to almost any sports car in the same class of sports car, from the same era. The Fiero GT/Formula is pretty much on par with the base 1982-89 Porsche 944.


Well, if you say a stock Fiero GT is as good of a sports car as a Porsche 944 then I will be fine with the Fiero. Because I have actually owned a 944 and it is a very good sports car. But by all I have read and heard of the Fiero and based on some replies here, I would not think so. But if you are a former Porsche owner and owns a Fiero now and can say this with certainty, this is certainly positive points in favor of the Fiero.

But I would not consider a 944 and a Fiero in the same class. I think we should only consider mid engine sports cars with the Fiero.

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Report this Post09-01-2016 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Reading some of the replies I think people may be getting the wrong idea when I ask how is the Fiero as a sports car.

I'm not a bit worried about top speed. I'm not worried about being super fast. I don't drag race. I'm not worried about how good the car is in a straight way. Don't care. Even a truck can be fast in a straight way.

What I want is a spirited drive. Read very spirited. This is more important than just speed. I'm worried about the stability, how it corners, how it handles, how it brakes and so on. Not worried about top speed what so ever.

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:


Well, if you say a stock Fiero GT is as good of a sports car as a Porsche 944 then I will be fine with the Fiero.


Looks like the 944s had about 5 more hp and weighed 200 less pounds.

944 - 60 - 0 =136ft (R&T apr.89)

84 Fiero - 55-0 =125 ft (Motorweek road test)

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 12:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Looks like the 944s had about 5 more hp and weighed 200 less pounds.

944 - 60 - 0 =136ft (R&T apr.89)




Like I'm trying to say, a sports car is more than just power etc. The Corvette has had lots of power in many models, but it's hard to say it's as good a sports car as some Europeans with much less power and torque.

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Report this Post09-01-2016 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:
Like I'm trying to say, a sports car is more than just power etc. The Corvette has had lots of power in many models, but it's hard to say it's as good a sports car as some Europeans with much less power and torque.


So you would need slalom results.
Weight distribution...


Yeah , you need to drive a nice one.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
When I said "The mid-engined design makes itself felt on twisty roads" I meant that that is where the car does the best; With the low polar-moment(Weight closer to the center of the car) the car will change direction extremely fast and then have no "Over-run".

Although the spindle on the front is the same as an early Espirt, the A-arms, etc are not- Still, with some work the front suspension can work extremely well- It is, after all, a double A-arm suspension, not a strut. The nice thing about the early suspension is that it is A) Easier to work on(Slightly), B) It is very durable and C) You use normal bearings which are easily procured. The 88 is slightly improved, but those bearings are getting scarce and noone as yet has a durable replacement- Rodney Dickman is working to solve this problem and I have confidence in his ability- but it will take time.

One critical thing to keep in mind is that it is not so much what you start with as >How you tune the components you have at hand<......Improper tuning can turn a Porsche into a pig, while proper tuning can turn a Pinto into a race car.

As for re-engining; You can go with a number of different, modern 4s.....then there is a number of versions of the V6 60* with up to 240 HP(Most of these V6s are LIGHTER than the original 2.8).....Then you can swap in a Cadillac 4.9 V8, or of course, an Aluminum LS V8- They are not much heavier, and remember that the engine is close to the middle of the car, so although a heavier engine places 75% of it's added weight in back, it also applies 25% or so of it's weight towards the front- basically the shift in weight distribution is not as extreme as you may think(And move the battery up front- that is a direct 1.3% shift rear to front).

Also, I was always struck by how the mags in the 80s compared the Fiero to the MR2 and CRX...Yet, if you compared it to the (Non-turbo)300ZX and RX7, the Fiero was quicker and had better MPG while costing less....I believe they should have done that comparison(Actually, R&T did sort of with their 85 GT test).
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Report this Post09-01-2016 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Looks like the 944s had about 5 more hp and weighed 200 less pounds.

944 - 60 - 0 =136ft (R&T apr.89)

84 Fiero - 55-0 =125 ft (Motorweek road test)


Are you suggesting the Porsche 944 only has 95 HP?
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Report this Post09-01-2016 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Are you suggesting the Porsche 944 only has 95 HP?


No as compared to a Fiero 2.8, sorry.
The only braking test I found was on an 84.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:
Reading some of the replies I think people may be getting the wrong idea when I ask how is the Fiero as a sports car.

I'm not a bit worried about top speed. I'm not worried about being super fast. I don't drag race. I'm not worried about how good the car is in a straight way. Don't care. Even a truck can be fast in a straight way.

What I want is a spirited drive. Read very spirited. This is more important than just speed. I'm worried about the stability, how it corners, how it handles, how it brakes and so on. Not worried about top speed what so ever.


I guess my Avalanche is a sports car then. And my Cruze Eco. A Honda Beat fits your definition of sports car, if you drive it like one:



The Fiero (any year) handles well. If you want "spirited driving" at ~average street car speeds, in stock trim though, your best option out of the Fieros is going to be a 5-speed V6 model. The pre-88s have a bump steer issue due to the suspension setup in the rear. The 88s have the improved suspension which fixes that, as well as some improvements to the front. Any well-maintained 5-speed V6 Fiero is going to be able to meet the requirements you stated here, as long as you can drive it properly given the flaws it has without going beyond its limits. The 88 suspension moves those limits further out a little.

Yes, the Fiero and 944 are in the same class. They had roughly the same horsepower, were about the same weight, and performed roughly the same in all standard performance metrics. Sure, the 944 has an engine in the front, instead of being mid-engine, so sure, between it and the Fiero, you might need to drive them slightly differently to get the same performance results, but both cars are 2600-2900 lbs sports cars.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Not that this thread is specifically about the MR2, but here is an old magazine shot:

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Report this Post09-01-2016 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

No as compared to a Fiero 2.8, sorry.


As stated Here, horsepower in a Porsche 944 can range from 143 to 247... depending on year, and/or version.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting thing in reference to trucks and handling; Ford's Lightning "sport" pickup was produced off and on from 1993 thru 2004.....The 1993-95 was on the older-style "Twin-I-beam" front suspension...Later models were on the newer, more advanced double A-arm suspension. Interestingly, the first gen (1993-95) was the best handling- even with the swing arm suspension; The reason why was tuning....At the time, Ford had the F1 champ Jackie Stewart on board, both as a spokesman and as a consultant....He wanted a pickup but was very dissatisfied by the handling of trucks, so he was able to set up that first gen Lightning's suspension.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

As stated Here, horsepower in a Porsche 944 can range from 143 to 247... depending on year, and/or version.


Sure. Rn2016 hasn't gotten specific.

I was looking at this on Wiki:
"US 1982-1985: 143 hp (107 kW)
US 1985-1987: 147 hp (110 kW) "

The others are S or Turbo models, and the other is an 89 when Fieros were not made, it has 163 hp.

I'm sure they cost quite a bit more than a Fiero as well.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I'm sure they cost quite a bit more than a Fiero as well.


Actually... not necessarily.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I was thinking original retail where the Porche 944 was double the Fiero GT price if I recall.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Actually... not necessarily.


Not today, he meant when new. The base 944 was about $10K more expensive (in the US anyway) than a Fiero GT. The later turbo models even more so. For Europeans the Fiero was probably relatively close in price to the base 944, after considering cost of shipping and import fees.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

The others are S or Turbo models, and the other is an 89 when Fieros were not made...


Now you're nitpicking. They're all Porsche 944's... which was the car being discussed.

Maybe we shouldn't include Porsche 944's that came in non-Fiero colors.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 03:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I was thinking original retail...


 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Not today, he meant when new.


Well, unless the OP already has a DeLorean to go back in time with, I suspect the current price of these cars is more relevant.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Now you're nitpicking. They're all Porsche 944's... which was the car being discussed.

Maybe we shouldn't include Porsche 944's that came in non-Fiero colors.


Hard to compare when the HP varies by 104
He didn't say S or Turbo.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Well, unless the OP already has a DeLorean to go back in time with, I suspect the current price of these cars is more relevant.


247 HP, and twice the original value, 3 years newer, if you can get it for the same price as a Stock Fiero...would easily be more Sports Car.
But that first thing you break, I hope there was an extra paycheck that month

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

He didn't say S or Turbo.


He didn't say 2.8 either. Long live the duke!
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Report this Post09-01-2016 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

He didn't say 2.8 either. Long live the duke!


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Report this Post09-01-2016 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:

Reading some of the replies I think people may be getting the wrong idea when I ask how is the Fiero as a sports car.

I'm not a bit worried about top speed. I'm not worried about being super fast. I don't drag race. I'm not worried about how good the car is in a straight way. Don't care. Even a truck can be fast in a straight way.

What I want is a spirited drive. Read very spirited. This is more important than just speed. I'm worried about the stability, how it corners, how it handles, how it brakes and so on. Not worried about top speed what so ever.



Let me put this in a more simple post.

I have driven many of the best sports cars out there. I get what you mean and here is how I want to state this. While I am a original Fiero owner since 1985 I am not blind to what it is and here is the best way to sum this up.

A great handling car no matter what you call it makes going fast easy on back roads with dips, off cambers and uneven surfaces. A car set up to handle but not be fully tuned well may still go fast and may still be fun but it will make you work for it.

I an not a Porsche fan but I have many miles in my Uncles 911 up and down the California coast from San Diego to San Fran. It is a car that makes you feel like you are doing 50 MPH and in reality you are doing 90 MPH. Hell my HHR SS tuned by the GM Performance Division even with FWD has this same feel.

A well tuned car is not the collection of parts but really how the parts all work together. GM for years would take a standard suspension add stiffer springs and larger sway bars and make it handle great on a skid pad or test track but in the real world they of then proved to be more of a challenge to get everything out at the limit.

The Fiero in the early years was a collection of parts due to a low budget and fixed issues they just could not remove. The 1988 Fiero is what they really wanted to start with but just did not get till later. It too still had room for improvement with the power steering that was coming but it was pretty good. GM also had a phobia on over steer with the Fiero so they were directed to put understeer into the car. It was removed by the 88 that was more balanced.

Now with that said the Fiero is a car that can be driven fast and will handle but you do have to work for it in stock form on a real world road. The front and back can at times feel like they are working independent of one another. Bump steer is present.

The 944 is a little better tuned for the real world. Not a great car but it is better tuned for real world roads.

When the GM Performance Division came around they started to test in Germany at the ring and learned how to tune a car to be easy to drive and be fast on all types of road surfaces they have there. That is why my SS does so well and is so easy to drive stupid fast.

They learned as the Germans did long ago that bigger bars and stiffer struts are not always the key. They learned less is more in the real world. It is kind of like in racing there are many times you can go slower and put down a faster lap. Over driving a car will slow you down the same for tuning as if you over tune it can slow you down for the conditions you are driving in.

Now that I made it clear as to how the Fiero stacks up there is a positive side to this. The Fiero while it makes you work to go fast can be a more rewarding car to drive in the real world as you do have to work for it and pay attention to details at the speeds you can get away with in the real world.

Now while my SS would smack the Fiero at any track I think the Fiero is a much more fun car to drive as it take more driver to make it fast than the car.

This same thing is what has made MG drivers love their cars as the driver is a much more important part of the equation then the car.

Now if I was going to do track time I would buy the car for the track for sure. Now for daily driving and the challenge I have no issue with the FIero. It just comes down to what makes you enjoy the drive. I can not tell you this nor anyone here. You just need to drive the car and figure it out for yourself.

The Fiero is an older car and sure there are much better cars today. It is a matter of what you want and what you an afford. Drive it and judge for your self.

I hope this answers what you were getting at.

The key is to remember a well tuned car is easy to drive fast. What some miss is the Fiero may be the best car they have ever driven and they just do not always understand this as they have never driven better. I have but i still like the Fiero and the Challenge it brings.

Some of today's modern cars are just simply amazing on what they can do and how they can make an average drive look so good as long as the computer is left on.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Some of today's modern cars are just simply amazing on what they can do and how they can make an average drive look so good as long as the computer is left on.

I think the Fiero is a much more fun car to drive as it take more driver to make it fast than the car.


Those two thoughts go through my head every weekend that I autocross my '88 Formula.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rn2016Send a Private Message to Rn2016Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I guess my Avalanche is a sports car then. And my Cruze Eco. A Honda Beat fits your definition of sports car, if you drive it like one.



I guess you either didn't understand what I said or I don't know. Read hyperv6's post. He gets it. The Avalanche is not a sports car if you drive it like one. Even the Corvette always had a problem keeping up with the European sports cars in twisty roads and the Corvette is a real sports car. It doesn't matter if you drive a car like a sports car. If it's not a real sports car it will bite you in the butt.

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:The Fiero (any year) handles well. If you want "spirited driving" at ~average street car speeds, in stock trim though, your best option out of the Fieros is going to be a 5-speed V6 model.



Oh but I would never get anything else. My idea was always a V6 and DEFINITELY a manual transmission. 5-speed for sure!

The only thing is that I don't like the fatter later GTs. So if I get a 1988 V6 it would need to be a Formula I guess. I like the Notchback better and it looks much more agile. Probably is too as I know the fat GT is heavier.

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

When I said "The mid-engined design makes itself felt on twisty roads" I meant that that is where the car does the best;


Ah, OK. It seemed you were saying the opposite to me. I got confused.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:Although the spindle on the front is the same as an early Espirt, the A-arms, etc are not- Still, with some work the front suspension can work extremely well- It is, after all, a double A-arm suspension, not a strut. The nice thing about the early suspension is that it is A) Easier to work on(Slightly), B) It is very durable and C) You use normal bearings which are easily procured. The 88 is slightly improved, but those bearings are getting scarce and noone as yet has a durable replacement- Rodney Dickman is working to solve this problem and I have confidence in his ability- but it will take time.


So are you saying I'm better off buying a pre-88 and upgrading the suspension than buying a 1988?
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I do dig a Formula
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Report this Post09-01-2016 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:
I guess you either didn't understand what I said or I don't know. Read hyperv6's post. He gets it. The Avalanche is not a sports car if you drive it like one. Even the Corvette always had a problem keeping up with the European sports cars in twisty roads and the Corvette is a real sports car. It doesn't matter if you drive a car like a sports car. If it's not a real sports car it will bite you in the butt. 


I get it just fine.

You keep talking about European sports cars like nothing else can possibly be a sports car. It doesn't matter if it's a "real sports car" or not, if you don't know how to drive it properly, it will bit you in the butt.

Times and technology change. Just because something was considered a quick sports car 30 years ago, doesn't mean something made today that's "not a sports car" can't run rings around it.
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Report this Post09-01-2016 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is a big difference between laying a fast time around a track and enjoying the time around the track.....Some cars can do one or the other...and some can do both at the same time. Putting a big engine in a Fiero and super wide tires can get you fast lap times, but it would be harder to get the car fully integrated so it all works as a piece and has no bad quirks. There is a saying about chassis vs HP; "The power exceeded the chassis ability....." Basically, you want your chassis to exceed your engine's power- Not Vice versa...

Next month the C&D Lightning lap edition should come out- always interesting to see how different cars compare on laps around a track....But I find the most interesting thing is to compare the SAME car from different years; The Mustang GT was tested in 2006(Lap 3:20.9) and then a few years later the same basic car lapped the same track in 3:13.3...This improvement was done with just chassis tuning and possibly different tires.....a few years later, the BOSS 302 LS was able to lap in 3:02.8- obviously, there was 100+ more HP, but the improvement in chassis dynamics is impressive. The Vette improved substantially, also; The C6 Z06 went from 3:01.1 in 2006 to 2:53.5 in 2011...and the new basic Stingray(With less power) is now able to lap at 2:53.8!

Although it is very nice to have computers and the 'Ring around to work on tuning, a little effort can reward you with a much better car to drive. Keeping things as light as possible- especially wheels and tires- can pay off really big. And you must be honest- no pre-conceived ideas- Test, analysis, and then modify....
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quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Let me put this in a more simple post.

I have driven many of the best sports cars out there. I get what you mean and here is how I want to state this. While I am a original Fiero owner since 1985 I am not blind to what it is and here is the best way to sum this up.

A great handling car no matter what you call it makes going fast easy on back roads with dips, off cambers and uneven surfaces.


Yes. This is what I would call a real sports car!

 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:A car set up to handle but not be fully tuned well may still go fast and may still be fun but it will make you work for it.


If you are willing to work for it, many cars will give you what you want. The difference of a proper sports-car is that it allows you to push it further because it's well tuned and made. It makes it easy to do it in all but very high speeds, where then you will need to work for it. But a car that makes you work for it at lower speeds is not a sports car. It's more of a normal car in my book. Because at this rate, any modern soccer mom's van is a sports car. But they are not.

 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6: I an not a Porsche fan but I have many miles in my Uncles 911 up and down the California coast from San Diego to San Fran. It is a car that makes you feel like you are doing 50 MPH and in reality you are doing 90 MPH. Hell my HHR SS tuned by the GM Performance Division even with FWD has this same feel.

A well tuned car is not the collection of parts but really how the parts all work together. GM for years would take a standard suspension add stiffer springs and larger sway bars and make it handle great on a skid pad or test track but in the real world they of then proved to be more of a challenge to get everything out at the limit.

The Fiero in the early years was a collection of parts due to a low budget and fixed issues they just could not remove. The 1988 Fiero is what they really wanted to start with but just did not get till later. It too still had room for improvement with the power steering that was coming but it was pretty good. GM also had a phobia on over steer with the Fiero so they were directed to put understeer into the car. It was removed by the 88 that was more balanced.

Now with that said the Fiero is a car that can be driven fast and will handle but you do have to work for it in stock form on a real world road. The front and back can at times feel like they are working independent of one another. Bump steer is present.


OK, then it leaves something to be desired as a sports car. At least in stock form.

 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:The 944 is a little better tuned for the real world. Not a great car but it is better tuned for real world roads.


The 944 in any version is a very competent sports car. Actually I have never driven a modern era Porsche which wasn't a good sports car. The 914 handles lovely. Even if it is under powered, it gives the true sports cars experience and feedback. It's much older than the Fiero too.

 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:Now that I made it clear as to how the Fiero stacks up there is a positive side to this. The Fiero while it makes you work to go fast can be a more rewarding car to drive in the real world as you do have to work for it and pay attention to details at the speeds you can get away with in the real world.


Talking about reward, there is a big difference between a sports car with character, which gives you the feedback, the experience and makes you handle it instead of doing everything for you. There is a difference between that and an incompetent sports car. So I'm not quite sure which one you are saying the stock Fiero is. A car which sweat at any little challenge is not more fun to drive. A car which makes you work to compensate for it's incompetence even when not in high speeds is not a fun car to drive or a real sports car. A car that makes you work to handle it when you are at high speeds then it's different. But not at any small challenge. That is the definition of a real sports car. It takes way more to challenge it than it does a normal car. If a car is getting challenged at any low ball situation It's hard to say it's a good sports car.


 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:The Fiero is an older car and sure there are much better cars today.


I'm sorry but I don't think the age is an excuse. If there is any problem is related to it's design. The 914 is much older and is a real sports car. Take a Pantera or Countach from the early to late 80's and it's a lot of sports car of the real kind. All are old. Of course none will be like a brand new supercar. But they are still real sports car which handle and perform like a real sports car today. May be slower etc. But still. To be honest I would prefer a Pantera or Countach than something loaded with computers controlling all for me like most modern supercars. But again this is very different than having to work for it because the car is not capable. I know a Pantera and a Countach are in a different class than a Fiero, which is why I say the old car explanation is not really the problem. It's the car they are to begin with which may be the problem. Besides the 914 was hardly a supercar at all. There are other examples of older non supercars which still give the real sports car experience today.

So after the very nice and detailed reply, coupled with all the great replies we have had in the thread, I'm still not sure where to fit the Fiero. Is it a real sports car, with real sports car handling and behavior, just not fast? Or is it an incompetent sports car? The Miata for example fits in the first case.


Thanks for the detailed reply by the way.

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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

The Mustang GT was tested in 2006(Lap 3:20.9) and then a few years later the same basic car lapped the same track in 3:13.3...This improvement was done with just chassis tuning and possibly different tires.....


"possibly"? How about positively!

Anyone who's been on any kind of a track knows that tires make a HUGE difference in the ability to lower lap times... and tire technology is constantly improving.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-01-2016).]

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Report this Post09-01-2016 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:
So after the very nice and detailed reply, coupled with all the great replies we have had in the thread, I'm still not sure where to fit the Fiero. Is it a real sports car, with real sports car handling and behavior, just not fast? Or is it an incompetent sports car? The Miata for example fits in the first case.


Cars are neither competent or incompetent. They are just cars. The Fiero is a sports car, shrouded in economy car branding, as a means to get it through to market. Whether you personally want to consider it a "true sports car" or not, is up to you. It's certainly not fast by today's standards, but it's certainly no slouch by the standards of its era, either.

Just go drive one. Then either buy it or don't. Taking the piss about whether or not some people consider it a sports car is irrelevant. You're certainly not going to get any driving enjoyment out of one, without driving it.
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quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:


So are you saying I'm better off buying a pre-88 and upgrading the suspension than buying a 1988?


At the moment, yes, it's better to have an earlier Fiero and swap in the 88 rear...If and when we can procure durable 88 front bearing/hubs, then the 88 would be better....Of course, this does hinge on your mechanical abilities- It isn't that hard to swap in the 88 subframe/suspension....But if you had to pay someone to do it then the benefit is less.

Another benefit of the earlier ones is that any V6 88 is basically more a collectors car(I feel a little guilty modding) because only 26,000 total were made in 88, while there were scads of earlier ones made- if you can do it yourself, snag up a relatively clean 85-87 4 cyl', and then swap any engine you want in....And continue with the suspension improvements (By the way, the pre-88s had a little more room between the strut towers(More room to work on larger engines)(Although, as I understand it, there has been V8s swapped into 88s).

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quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

"possibly"? How about positively!

Anyone who's been on any kind of a track knows that tires make a HUGE difference in the ability to lower lap times... and tire technology is constantly improving.



Although there is no question that tire tech is moving fast, that does not fully account for the drop in lap times- Simply put, both Ford and GM have started to tune their suspensions for the real world and not a "Billiard table smooth track".

I dreamed up a very interesting test; Take a 2006 Mustang GT and a 2012 BOSS 302 LS to a track and get a good racing driver to test them, and then A) Swap just the tires first, then lap again, and then B) Swap the whole suspension over and test again- Yes there is a difference in HP (Approx' 315 vs 440) but this would show how much improvement came from A) the tires, B) The chassis tuning, and of course C) The power.....I think this would be fascinating.

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Report this Post09-01-2016 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rn2016:


I'm sorry but I don't think the age is an excuse. If there is any problem is related to it's design. The 914 is much older and is a real sports car. Take a Pantera or Countach from the early to late 80's and it's a lot of sports car of the real kind. All are old. Of course none will be like a brand new supercar. But they are still real sports car which handle and perform like a real sports car today. May be slower etc. But still. To be honest I would prefer a Pantera or Countach than something loaded with computers controlling all for me like most modern supercars. But again this is very different than having to work for it because the car is not capable. I know a Pantera and a Countach are in a different class than a Fiero, which is why I say the old car explanation is not really the problem. It's the car they are to begin with which may be the problem. Besides the 914 was hardly a supercar at all. There are other examples of older non supercars which still give the real sports car experience today.

So after the very nice and detailed reply, coupled with all the great replies we have had in the thread, I'm still not sure where to fit the Fiero. Is it a real sports car, with real sports car handling and behavior, just not fast? Or is it an incompetent sports car? The Miata for example fits in the first case.


Thanks for the detailed reply by the way.


Not sure what you want from us at this point. Either you drive one and like it or not.

The bottom line is the car was conceived as a sports car and built as a sports car. It is not a Mcleren F1 but it is still a fun car to drive on a low budget and is easy to get parts for and the electronics still work.

Cars like the 944 and 914 were more VW than they were Porsche. They are like Harley Davidson's from the AMF era where few people like them or car that are fans of the mark. This is why today you can buy a nearly $40K car for $4K. They are not cheap to repair and like the 914 has a nasty habit of breaking in half in snow regions.

There is good and bad to all of this. They are all sports cars and the bottom line comes to just what you like.

I would recommend stop asking us and go out and drive all these cars and make your choice. There really are few perfect sports cars as I can show you flaws in nearly all. It is a matter of what you want and expect to make you happy. We all pretty much here have been realistic on the Fiero and honest. Until you have some miles in one to know for yourself the is little more that we can tell you.

Even the Miata as good as it is has its warts too.

The way to best term the Fiero is it is a sports car with some flaws. That is a term that could be placed on nearly all Sports Cars. 911 flaw Drop Throttle Over Steer, Any English sports car has quality and electrical issues. Itallian cars rust and have high up keep cost. Most German Sports cars are often good on performance but lack soul. If they are outsourced they are often the devils rejects rejected by those fans of the same mark resulting in dismal resale values.

Miata reliable and drives well but lacks much power for much excitement. The car replaces the driver and leave you with a car feeling like it has little personality.

Corvette it depends on the era as to what is good or bad. It has been around so long the issue have changed from several areas.

Solstice and Sky had their interior issues and trunk issues.

X1/9 well can you find one today with no rust? Same for the Pantera. How about a Maserati that is worth fixing the engine on as it has failed and the car is not worth the cost.

Mclaren is a nice car but lacks the soul of a Ferrari. The Ferrari has great soul but still requires a lot of money to keep it on the road.

The only perfect sports car is the one in the poster on the wall you dream of and have yet to buy. LOL!

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

At the moment, yes, it's better to have an earlier Fiero and swap in the 88 rear...If and when we can procure durable 88 front bearing/hubs, then the 88 would be better....Of course, this does hinge on your mechanical abilities- It isn't that hard to swap in the 88 subframe/suspension....But if you had to pay someone to do it then the benefit is less.

Another benefit of the earlier ones is that any V6 88 is basically more a collectors car(I feel a little guilty modding) because only 26,000 total were made in 88, while there were scads of earlier ones made- if you can do it yourself, snag up a relatively clean 85-87 4 cyl', and then swap any engine you want in....And continue with the suspension improvements (By the way, the pre-88s had a little more room between the strut towers(More room to work on larger engines)(Although, as I understand it, there has been V8s swapped into 88s).


The problem seems to be the 88 front suspension, right? So why not instead of buying a 87 and swapping in the 88 rear cradle/Suspension, just buy a 88 and swap in the 87 front suspension? Then you would have a 88 car. There were more improvements in the 88 cars besides suspension, correct?

You mentioned getting a clean 4cyl. instead of a V6 if I'm upgrading the engine anyway. So the only difference between the V6 and 4 cyl. is the engine? The rest, meaning suspension, brakes, 5 speed gear box etc are all the same? Also in the 88?

[This message has been edited by Rn2016 (edited 09-01-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Not sure what you want from us at this point. Either you drive one and like it or not.

The bottom line is the car was conceived as a sports car and built as a sports car. It is not a Mcleren F1 but it is still a fun car to drive on a low budget and is easy to get parts for and the electronics still work.

Cars like the 944 and 914 were more VW than they were Porsche. They are like Harley Davidson's from the AMF era where few people like them or car that are fans of the mark. This is why today you can buy a nearly $40K car for $4K. They are not cheap to repair and like the 914 has a nasty habit of breaking in half in snow regions.

There is good and bad to all of this. They are all sports cars and the bottom line comes to just what you like.

I would recommend stop asking us and go out and drive all these cars and make your choice. There really are few perfect sports cars as I can show you flaws in nearly all. It is a matter of what you want and expect to make you happy. We all pretty much here have been realistic on the Fiero and honest. Until you have some miles in one to know for yourself the is little more that we can tell you.

Even the Miata as good as it is has its warts too.

The way to best term the Fiero is it is a sports car with some flaws. That is a term that could be placed on nearly all Sports Cars. 911 flaw Drop Throttle Over Steer, Any English sports car has quality and electrical issues. Itallian cars rust and have high up keep cost. Most German Sports cars are often good on performance but lack soul. If they are outsourced they are often the devils rejects rejected by those fans of the same mark resulting in dismal resale values.

Miata reliable and drives well but lacks much power for much excitement. The car replaces the driver and leave you with a car feeling like it has little personality.

Corvette it depends on the era as to what is good or bad. It has been around so long the issue have changed from several areas.

Solstice and Sky had their interior issues and trunk issues.

X1/9 well can you find one today with no rust? Same for the Pantera. How about a Maserati that is worth fixing the engine on as it has failed and the car is not worth the cost.

Mclaren is a nice car but lacks the soul of a Ferrari. The Ferrari has great soul but still requires a lot of money to keep it on the road.

The only perfect sports car is the one in the poster on the wall you dream of and have yet to buy. LOL!



I'm sorry. But you went quite off topic. I don't want a perfect car and never said I do.

I actually said I would prefer a Pantera or Countach over a modern supercar. That should tell you I'm not looking for a perfect sports car.
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