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3800 non SC engine by hetterbr
Started on: 08-24-2016 12:30 PM
Replies: 16 (350 views)
Last post by: weaselbeak on 08-30-2016 12:27 AM
hetterbr
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Report this Post08-24-2016 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hetterbrClick Here to Email hetterbrSend a Private Message to hetterbrEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a line on a 3800 non SC engine for free. it has about 120,000 KMs (75,000 miles).

I have really only seen discussions around SC engines here.

looking for opinions and information on this? is the process the same as swapping a SC engine? is it worth my while to do this? or should I hold out for a SC 3800?

Or has this discussion already happened and my search skills suck?
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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-24-2016 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you can still slap a turbo on it...
all the same mounts, etc.., available in the mall will still work...
without mods it will dyno at around 175 rwhp...

what sort of opinion are you looking for?
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hetterbr
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Report this Post08-24-2016 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hetterbrClick Here to Email hetterbrSend a Private Message to hetterbrEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks was wondering thoughts on whether this is worth the work. or should I keep looking for a SC version. Sounds like it might not be a bad option and eventually i can put a big ol turbo on it. Cheers.
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Buck531
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Report this Post08-24-2016 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Buck531Click Here to Email Buck531Send a Private Message to Buck531Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
NA motors are generally a LOTTT cheaper than the SC L67 engines mainly due to the supercharger on them.

However, a LOT of folks will do a "top swap" which consists of swapping the heads over to the L67 along with the balancer and then put the blower on top. This will get you almost a full point of compression and if tuned correctly will put more power down than the L67.

I just happen to have a complete top swap that I would sell pretty cheap.

------------------
03 Buick Regal. 13.0x @103
87 Fiero GT. L67 swap soon

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Monkeyman
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Report this Post08-24-2016 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonkeymanSend a Private Message to MonkeymanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

without mods it will dyno at around 175 rwhp...



More like 210hp.
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dobey
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Report this Post08-24-2016 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hetterbr:

Thanks was wondering thoughts on whether this is worth the work. or should I keep looking for a SC version. Sounds like it might not be a bad option and eventually i can put a big ol turbo on it. Cheers.


How much boost do you really want? If you want to go big boost, then I'd skip the N/A and get the SC version, either Series II or Series III. The supercharged engine has stronger bottom end, and lower compression ratio which will be better when you start adding more boost.
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Report this Post08-24-2016 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

dobey

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quote
Originally posted by Monkeyman:
More like 210hp.


Not an N/A. The Series II are rated at 205 at the crank. Series III are a bit higher, but still unlikely to see 200+ HP at the rear wheels, with the stock N/A motors. A stock SC might make 200 at the wheels in a Fiero, though.
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Monkeyman
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Report this Post08-24-2016 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonkeymanSend a Private Message to MonkeymanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK. 205. Close enough.
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onesexyfiero
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Report this Post08-24-2016 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for onesexyfieroClick Here to Email onesexyfieroSend a Private Message to onesexyfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
He said 175 rWhp, wheel being the operative letter in that acronym.
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dobey
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Report this Post08-24-2016 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by onesexyfiero:

He said 175 rWhp, wheel being the operative letter in that acronym.


Exactly. I still don't understand why it's so common for people to not grasp the concept of drive line losses. Was just wasting some time watching videos of random cam swapped cars on youtube, and in the comments for one someone was repeatedly claiming how it didn't make any additional power, because the dyno showed 305 HP (at the wheels, so about 390 HP at the crank) and the stock 4.8l engine is rated at 302 HP (at the crank), so cam swap was a complete waste of money.
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Monkeyman
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Report this Post08-24-2016 10:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonkeymanSend a Private Message to MonkeymanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The "rear wheel" thing slipped by me not that it matters. I have a silver car so I don't have any driveline loss. Now, if I had a black or (God forbid) RED car, I can see losing a bunch of power by the time it got to the rear wheels.

Lemme ask a question. If you have a FRONT wheel drive car, is it still called RWHP? Technically, the RWHP on a front drive car would be zero. Just sayin'.
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Report this Post08-25-2016 06:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monkeyman:
Lemme ask a question. If you have a FRONT wheel drive car, is it still called RWHP? Technically, the RWHP on a front drive car would be zero. Just sayin'.


Only in reverse.

Really it's just WHP. Some cars that's 1-2 wheels, some it's approximately 4 (all power is not necessarily distributed equally to all drive wheels). But it's a close enough measurement that WHP is basically how much power your car is capable of getting to the ground, while BHP is how much power your engine can make at the crankshaft (ignoring that peak HP number by itself basically tells you nothing about how a vehicle actually performs, and even with RPM still tells you very little).
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Report this Post08-25-2016 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have had a series 1 SC a series II SC and now a series II n/a 3800 in 2 Fieros Iv'e have/had. If you do a N/A engine. Most of the work is done. Swapping a SC later would be gravy.
Do not put boosted top end on a n/a engine unless intend on granading it. A boosted top end will work if you are easy on it, but would you really be easy on it.

As far a experience.
The Series 1 SC was the smoothest, ballsy engine. No question, you feel the torque difference compared to even a Series II N/A but heavier.
The Series II SC was the most powerful.
The Series II N/A I currently have in my 87GT. Plenty of power to move a Fiero. It is not you fathers 2.8. I think I can squeeze more, but I have gotten upwards to 32 MPG on 87 octane. While keeping it in a nice power to handling area.
With any of these configurations you can increase your power a little with some simple things that are normally overlooked.
When GM sets the HP ratings, they do it with all the accessories on it. Anything you can do to limit the rotating mass gives you a little more. GM added 20 HP or more between the Series 1 and II by reducing rotating mass at least 20 lbs.
Right from the start you loose the power steering. Also with that you can reduce the belt idler mass. If sticking to automatic, using a torque converter from a 3.1 in your 4T60e or 4T65 can reduce a bit more. You don't need the large G/H body converter. Had to redrill the Series II SC flywheel, but bolted right up to the other 2. They had 2 sets of holes. If you stick to N/A, you won't need a harder to find HD trans. Which makes it easier to match up a set of axles.
The Series II N/A engine I'm using is the last of the Vin K engines from 2005. It only has about 18,000 miles on it. Less than 14,000 when I put it in. The current belt set up is around 1/3 the lenth and less 1 idler compared to the stock configuration. The block and timing cover appear to be the same as the older vin Ks but seems to have the same heads as the Series 3. Can't be sure unless I take it apart to measure the valves. (not happening)
When I originally had the Series 1 SC, I added 78 lbs GVW to the car. That was also adding a 4 speed automatic. Just by installing the later type starter I reduced that at least 5 lbs. When I went Series II another 20 lbs. When I went N/A maybe another 10 lbs more. So now I'm about 40 lbs heavier than 2.8/TH125. But now have overdrive, at least 50 more horsepower and much more efficient engine.

Is it worth it?

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 08-25-2016).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-26-2016 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
smh...

the OP was talking about the swap in a Fiero, hence "dyno at around 175 Rwhp"

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-26-2016).]

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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-26-2016 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

lou_dias

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:
How much boost do you really want? If you want to go big boost, then I'd skip the N/A and get the SC version, either Series II or Series III. The supercharged engine has stronger bottom end, and lower compression ratio which will be better when you start adding more boost.

speaking with several pro tuners in my area who run upwards of 30psi on some DSMs and 3000GT's, they tell me an engine's base compression isn't as much of a factor anymore since the programming will just pull timing as needed...

The 3800SC swap I just bought is using the L32 pistons...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-26-2016).]

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dobey
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Report this Post08-26-2016 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
speaking with several pro tuners in my area who run upwards of 30psi on some DSMs and 3000GT's, they tell me an engine's base compression isn't as much of a factor anymore since the programming will just pull timing as needed...

The 3800SC swap I just bought is using the L32 pistons...


Depends on a lot of factors for that to work properly. The new SIDI engines from GM even still run fairly high compression when in boosted trim, though it's still less than they run in N/A trim.

I wouldn't do it with an OE 3800 ECM and definitely not on the internals of the N/A 3800 (at least not the Series I or II).
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weaselbeak
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Report this Post08-30-2016 12:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been running a Series 3 in my 86 GT for years now. It is not the ultimate hotrod, but is light years faster than the 2.8. 50% more HP and 50% more torque. You would not be disappointed.
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