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Brake problems by 86Ferrari
Started on: 08-15-2016 12:39 PM
Replies: 45 (983 views)
Last post by: 86Ferrari on 08-25-2016 08:46 AM
86Ferrari
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Report this Post08-15-2016 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FerrariClick Here to Email 86FerrariSend a Private Message to 86FerrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are there any common brake problems for Fiero's? The brakes on my 86 haven't been good since I bought it a couple months ago. The previous owner even mentioned that he just had new pads put on it. He didn't replace the rotors however. They look fine but you can tell they aren't brand new. They are smooth with no shake at braking. The pedal is a little soft but not overly. I just replaced the master cylinder but after bench bleeding and rebleeding each brake bleeder I have the exact pedal feel as before. All corners are grabbing but just not as good as they should. On a dry paved road at no more than 20 or 30 mph you can stomp the brakes and it will not lock up or even feel like you are braking as hard as you actually are. There's no way it would stop short in an emergency situation if someone locked up in front of you even standing up on the brake pedal. There is plenty of vacuum on the booster and you usually get a hard pedal if it is bad. I thought maybe the proportioning valve may be bad but my local NAPA didn't even show it on their computer. Does anyone still make it? Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Steve
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Report this Post08-15-2016 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joeschuitClick Here to Email joeschuitSend a Private Message to joeschuitEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A quick way to reduce braking power is to put cheap pads on glazed rotors and not break them in correctly. I'd suggest getting decent pads and either new rotors or have them turned. My local oriley auto parts does them for cheap and is nice when you've still got the good oem rotors.
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Report this Post08-15-2016 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Calipers (probably rear) are the problem I suspect. Could be bad hoses also. If calipers are not functioning properly, they cause problems. Is your e-brake hooked up and working? What type of pads? Could be "hard" pads, and not allowing enough friction. Rotors are rotors.... nothing much to worry about there unless they are too thin, causing them to heat up.
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86Ferrari
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Report this Post08-15-2016 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FerrariClick Here to Email 86FerrariSend a Private Message to 86FerrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Rotars are thick as new but may be glazed. I haven't looked as to which brand of pads that he put on it before I got it. I have a suspicion that there was a brake issue before I got the car as the PO said it needed brakes and he was going to have that done before I took delivery. I bought it from another state and had it shipped. Pedal just doesn't feel right though. It won't go to floor but is spongy. I bled the crap out of it so I don't really suspect air in the lines and like I said it feels just like it did before I put on the new master cyl.
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Report this Post08-15-2016 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Rear calipers are suspect... do you have a functioning ebrake? rear calipers are not functioning properly, I would suspect.
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theogre
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Report this Post08-15-2016 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sound like Bad Booster or vacuum line/filter problems... The famous "can't stop even when two feet on the pedal" is why.
Harder pedal then normal when you have booster/vac problems.
Hardest pedal when engine is off and push pedal 2 or more times to loose all vacuum.

Plugged filter in engine bay on firewall.
Plugged/bad/crush vac lines.
Iffy booster check valve
Bad booster. 1 of 2 diaphragms is bad, etc.

BUT
Fading or too cold pads can act as booster problems.

Many Idiots think "Racing" Pads are Good...
Many are Not for most uses and Worse act like booster problems until they get hot. This problem can/will return when the pads cool down.
If you can't get what kind of pads used by PO then replace them w/ pads from AZ etc. AZ and most others only sells pads for normal driving.

Cheap Pads will not behave as above when brake are good. Cheap pads can wear faster and could fad sooner when hot.
Regular fading is not Pad but Caliper(s) or hydro problems. Many can't grasp this fact and blame any fad problems on pads.
Example: Caliper dragging pads are common and over heat the pads and rotors. Resulting in fad problems way before you warp the rotors.

See my Cave, Brake Service and rest of section.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


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Patrick
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Report this Post08-15-2016 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

... but after bench bleeding and rebleeding each brake bleeder I have the exact pedal feel as before.


I'm not suggesting this would be the cause of your issues, but since you're new to these cars it might be worthwhile mentioning... the correct order to bleed the wheel cylinders on all Fieros is LR-RR-RF-LF.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post08-15-2016 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The major issue are brake booster issue or lack of vacuum. Follow the post above as it will make the stopping ability really crappy. Even worse than no power brake booster at all.

I have the same issue when the brakes are cold but my linings are metallic pads and they need heat. The original pads on this car had a high metallic content.

The rear caliper do freeze up on the adjustment but the car will still stop well on the front brakes. Your pedal will just get lower and lower with no adjustment.

Also replace your brake hoses as if they are original they degrade and can collapse inside. Just put on a good set of Russel steel braided lines. They will firm up the pedal.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 08-15-2016).]

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Report this Post08-15-2016 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HMMM! 86 Ferrari, eh? Can you post some pictures or email them to me? I just might have some history on the car.
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sardonyx247
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Report this Post08-16-2016 06:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First read this How-To Adjust your E-Brake

Then replace your pads and do a google search for Bedding in brakes. (or do the above when replacing pads) Doing the 'bed in' procedure won't glaze the rotors or even wear them, and the brakes work so much better.

After both of those that should give you a high firm pedal, if you want more after that I sell a bigger booster. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060500.html

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined '87 Duke (Sold)
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'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
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hyperv6
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Report this Post08-16-2016 07:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

First read this How-To Adjust your E-Brake

Then replace your pads and do a google search for Bedding in brakes. (or do the above when replacing pads) Doing the 'bed in' procedure won't glaze the rotors or even wear them, and the brakes work so much better.

After both of those that should give you a high firm pedal, if you want more after that I sell a bigger booster. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060500.html



No matter what car you have we all should bed or seat the pads in.

Generally this will not solve the issue here but it will help prevent the dreaded so called brake pulse or what some think is a warped rotor.

If you do not coat the rotors with the pad material evenly it will embed material in various spots and make it grip more in one spot than others. This will make brakes have uneven grip.

Most mechanics do not bed them in and no factory beds in pads.

The other so called warp factors is Rotor Thickness Variation. It is where the rotor wobbles on a hub bearing and wears the rotor uneven. It is not common on a Fiero as it is on more FWD cars with roller ball bearing front hubs.

I really do not see this being the issue here but it is a good thing to do on any car for better brake life and service.

I still believe the vacuum is not correct in the booster and you are not getting full assist.
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Report this Post08-16-2016 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for spiritClick Here to Email spiritSend a Private Message to spiritEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had the same problem. Replaced the rear with GranAm cal & rotors and replaced the booster with a S-10. Drained and installed new brake fluid. helped a lot but still have soft pedal.
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86Ferrari
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Report this Post08-16-2016 01:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FerrariClick Here to Email 86FerrariSend a Private Message to 86FerrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Plenty of vacuum going to the booster. E-brake does not work.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post08-17-2016 06:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

Plenty of vacuum going to the booster. E-brake does not work.


Then i would adjust the rear caliper up or see if they e brake is frozen.

You said you had brakes at all 4 corners earlier. Well they may be moving but they may not be engaging as if they e brake is not working there is nothing to take up pad wear.

Is your brake pedal lower than it should be?

Some times you can take them appart and break them lose and other times you may not. Also you can pry out on the caliper piston and then work the lever to get it to adjust on the car but watch the boot.

As the brake pads wear the pistons have to move out more and more. It gets to the point the front brakes do more and more braking and the rear less and less and the pedal gets lower and lower. That adjustment keeps everything in check.

Still check the booster to see if it is good. It may be getting vacuum but is it holding it. Diaphragms can rupture with age or leak inside.

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Report this Post08-17-2016 07:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

Plenty of vacuum going to the booster. E-brake does not work.


I am guessing the rear calipers are not functioning properly, any longer. Any Fiero I had with a non-functioning e-brake, had rear caliper problems. The last one and '88, I just swapped in a set of front calipers for the rear. You can't do this with 84-87 though.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd put a vac gauge on the booster,, and see what it reads in USE.. one the brakes, off the gas.. also put a manual vac pump on it ,and see if it holds vacuum..
I'd check the parts the ORGE listed..
Then I'd.. deglaze the rotors and pads.. rears, you can use sand paper and a 2x4 with the sand paper on it.. to deglaze them with the car off the ground, fronts chocked, and in gear..
then sand the gloss of the pads if you don't want to buy new ones..
Fronts.. ( warning, it took years in a flat rate shop to get this down, only posted to give options) I use a fab'd up c clamp that has metal plates on both fingers of the c clamp.. and put autobody glue type d/a paper on them.. and drive the car.. It took some trial and error for this fab tool so I'd skip it.. and if you have a d/a sander.. lightly sand the rotors.. most don't have the skill not to take to much material from one spot and you get a pulse in the pedal..
*** fronts,, if you are planning on replacing the pads, and that is not a bad idea if you don't know what they are.. you can take old pads and glue sand paper to them.. and then deglaze rotors while driving slowly up the street with foot on brakes..
The correct way is to have the rotors turned, but that is not always an option.. as very few places do it anymore,, and the service cost as much as new rotors.. and many rotors once turned are to thin..
Get the min thickness spec. and a mike and measure the rotors.. as it sucks to turn them only to have them illegal..
I'd also replace if you think they need it or not, the 4 rubber brake lines, unless you have receipts from the p/o that they have been changed.. even if they look good they most likely are weak and swell as you push on the pedal..
glazed pads are most times junk,, but you can sand the face and hope for the best..

My bet is
1) there is still air in the system.
2) the rubber lines swell in use
3) rotors and pads need to be deglazed..

disclaimer.. some of the ways listed above are not textbook correct.. but neither is slapping n pads and calling it good..
it's your life,, brakes are not something to fool with,, if you are not cool with deglazing the pads/rotors..,,, don't !!!! Get new pads and either turn the rotors or get new..
new front rotors are 17.05 at rock auto..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-17-2016).]

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Report this Post08-17-2016 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


I am guessing the rear calipers are not functioning properly, any longer. Any Fiero I had with a non-functioning e-brake, had rear caliper problems. The last one and '88, I just swapped in a set of front calipers for the rear. You can't do this with 84-87 though.


you can't legally do this at all..
if a lawyer ever found this,, you'd loose everything.. thisi s why most shops will push a car out of the shop and not let it be driven away if the brakes are shot and the owner say's slap it back together.. it must leave on a hook.. even if it's just out of the parking lot of the shop. it left on a hook.. taking the liabilitiy off the shop.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Easy8Send a Private Message to Easy8Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have a look at the brake lines from the car to the calipers. I will bet they are original, if they are replace them. If you suspect the valve take a line off each caliper and have some one press the brake pedal slowly, you should see a nice stream of fluid. (One at a time of course) If you do the valve is fine.
Brakes should lock if you stand on the pedal no matter the booster or all the other things that have been said here. I can lock my 1929 ford with straight mechanical drum brakes this way. If it was air in the lines the pedal goes to the floor or you can lock them with a few quick pumps on the pedal. If the pads are cheap or the rotors are bad it will all effect the brake performance but stop a brake from locking if you stand on the pedal.

I drove my 87 GT like this for awhile just thinking the brake system was old and did not perform as good as "modern" brakes. Swarped the brake lines for some braided stainless steel lines and I found out I was wrong.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Easy8:

Have a look at the brake lines from the car to the calipers. I will bet they are original, if they are replace them. If you suspect the valve take a line off each caliper and have some one press the brake pedal slowly, you should see a nice stream of fluid. (One at a time of course) If you do the valve is fine.
Brakes should lock if you stand on the pedal no matter the booster or all the other things that have been said here. I can lock my 1929 ford with straight mechanical drum brakes this way. If it was air in the lines the pedal goes to the floor or you can lock them with a few quick pumps on the pedal. If the pads are cheap or the rotors are bad it will all effect the brake performance but stop a brake from locking if you stand on the pedal.

I drove my 87 GT like this for awhile just thinking the brake system was old and did not perform as good as "modern" brakes. Swarped the brake lines for some braided stainless steel lines and I found out I was wrong.


If you can lock your brakes you need better tires. People always skimp on tires, after just 1 year they do not function as well a new tires. Tires are everything, grip, braking, etc, it is the only contact you have with the road.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 11:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FerrariClick Here to Email 86FerrariSend a Private Message to 86FerrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for all the good info guys. Some irrelevant info here also but I'll let you decide which posts that may be. For the moment anyway I'm ruling out a bad booster. For the moment... Every bad booster I have ever encountered has left me with a hard pedal. I wouldn't expect a Fiero to be any different.My pedal does feel somewhat soft but doesn't go to the floor. A vacuum issue would allow the same hard pedal symptom which as stated isn't there. Without a vacuum gauge I can pretty well tell it isn't losing vacuum pressure just because of the amount of vacuum I feel from pulling off the vac hose from the booster and placing my finger over it. Also the car immediately revs up as it is allowed to suck more air and idles back to normal when vac hose is placed in booster again. I don't care how new your tires are (and mine are new) you should be able to lock up the brakes in a Fiero if they are functioning properly if you stand on the brake pedal. One question that I don't really know the answer to is this, if the back calipers are bad why still doesn't the car have enough braking power to at least lock up the front brakes? With the mushy pedal I suspect bad or old brake lines as stated above or a bad proportioning valve but not ruling out anything at this point. They were bled and bled so I'm at the moment ruling out air in the lines. Especially since after the new master cylinder install I have the exact same problem. Again thanks for all the help and keep suggestions coming. I'm just trying to rule out as much as possible as to not keep throwing money at it in "hopes" that it fixes it like I did with the new master cylinder.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Many times the flexible lines at each wheel will cause problems. I would replace all of them.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

Thanks for all the good info guys. Some irrelevant info here also but I'll let you decide which posts that may be. For the moment anyway I'm ruling out a bad booster. For the moment... Every bad booster I have ever encountered has left me with a hard pedal. I wouldn't expect a Fiero to be any different.My pedal does feel somewhat soft but doesn't go to the floor. A vacuum issue would allow the same hard pedal symptom which as stated isn't there. Without a vacuum gauge I can pretty well tell it isn't losing vacuum pressure just because of the amount of vacuum I feel from pulling off the vac hose from the booster and placing my finger over it. Also the car immediately revs up as it is allowed to suck more air and idles back to normal when vac hose is placed in booster again. I don't care how new your tires are (and mine are new) you should be able to lock up the brakes in a Fiero if they are functioning properly if you stand on the brake pedal. One question that I don't really know the answer to is this, if the back calipers are bad why still doesn't the car have enough braking power to at least lock up the front brakes? With the mushy pedal I suspect bad or old brake lines as stated above or a bad proportioning valve but not ruling out anything at this point. They were bled and bled so I'm at the moment ruling out air in the lines. Especially since after the new master cylinder install I have the exact same problem. Again thanks for all the help and keep suggestions coming. I'm just trying to rule out as much as possible as to not keep throwing money at it in "hopes" that it fixes it like I did with the new master cylinder.
Fiero Will lock the fronts without much effort on the pedal when booster etc is good. Even if you have low pedal from rear caliper E brake problems.

Prop valve has nothing to do w/ front brakes. Spool in combi valve etc could be blocking flow but will often cause pad drag problems too. See my Cave, Combination Valve

Flow does not = Pressure to the calipers.
Slow flow can, most often will, still make whatever pressure to stop the car.
Iffy hoses/hardware can keep pressure in the calipers and drag the pads causing brake fad etc.
Use new pro grade w/ SAE J1401 rubber hose, see http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129208.html

If fronts have Clearance problems, iffy soft lines, etc... You could run out of MC secondary piston travel. That will limit pressure in the circuit but might not be enough to trip the brake warning light. Front of MC has little travel before hits stops inside of MC.
Another car's MC but secondary is typical to most and similar to Fiero MC... (ignore front/rear labels at top. Fiero is other way around.) Working area means seal has close the hole to tank and started to make pressure. Very common to have normal work zone close to max. Pistons are made w/ long nose so the spring winding don't bind. Primary piston's bolt and cup does same for that spring.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-17-2016).]

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Report this Post08-17-2016 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Many times the flexible lines at each wheel will cause problems. I would replace all of them.


I am thinking it would be best to look at replacing hoses, calipers, e-brake and maybe even rotors... basically a complete brake system rebuild. That way the car will be good for years.
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Report this Post08-17-2016 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FerrariClick Here to Email 86FerrariSend a Private Message to 86FerrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

Thanks for all the good info guys. Some irrelevant info here also but I'll let you decide which posts that may be. For the moment anyway I'm ruling out a bad booster. For the moment... Every bad booster I have ever encountered has left me with a hard pedal. I wouldn't expect a Fiero to be any different.My pedal does feel somewhat soft but doesn't go to the floor. A vacuum issue would allow the same hard pedal symptom which as stated isn't there. Without a vacuum gauge I can pretty well tell it isn't losing vacuum pressure just because of the amount of vacuum I feel from pulling off the vac hose from the booster and placing my finger over it. Also the car immediately revs up as it is allowed to suck more air and idles back to normal when vac hose is placed in booster again. I don't care how new your tires are (and mine are new) you should be able to lock up the brakes in a Fiero if they are functioning properly if you stand on the brake pedal. One question that I don't really know the answer to is this, if the back calipers are bad why still doesn't the car have enough braking power to at least lock up the front brakes? With the mushy pedal I suspect bad or old brake lines as stated above or a bad proportioning valve but not ruling out anything at this point. They were bled and bled so I'm at the moment ruling out air in the lines. Especially since after the new master cylinder install I have the exact same problem. Again thanks for all the help and keep suggestions coming. I'm just trying to rule out as much as possible as to not keep throwing money at it in "hopes" that it fixes it like I did with the new master cylinder.
Fiero Will lock the fronts without much effort on the pedal when booster etc is good. Even if you have low pedal from rear caliper E brake problems.

Prop valve has nothing to do w/ front brakes. Spool in combi valve etc could be blocking flow but will often cause pad drag problems too. See my Cave, Combination Valve

Flow does not = Pressure to the calipers.
Slow flow can, most often will, still make whatever pressure to stop the car.
Iffy hoses/hardware can keep pressure in the calipers and drag the pads causing brake fad etc.
Use new pro grade w/ SAE J1401 rubber hose, see http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129208.html

If fronts have Clearance problems, iffy soft lines, etc... You could run out of MC secondary piston travel. That will limit pressure in the circuit but might not be enough to trip the brake warning light. Front of MC has little travel before hits stops inside of MC.
Another car's MC but secondary is typical to most and similar to Fiero MC... (ignore front/rear labels at top. Fiero is other way around.) Working area means seal has close the hole to tank and started to make pressure. Very common to have normal work zone close to max. Pistons are made w/ long nose so the spring winding don't bind. Primary piston's bolt and cup does same for that spring.


[/QUOTE]
Thanks. Some good reads
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86Ferrari
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quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


I am thinking it would be best to look at replacing hoses, calipers, e-brake and maybe even rotors... basically a complete brake system rebuild. That way the car will be good for years.


Guess I've always been in the mindset of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I would rather find the actual component that is broke and fix that instead of throwing good money over bad replacing perfectly good parts. If I'm going to replace everything I would rather do a big brake upgrade if there is such a beast.
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quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:


Guess I've always been in the mindset of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I would rather find the actual component that is broke and fix that instead of throwing good money over bad replacing perfectly good parts. If I'm going to replace everything I would rather do a big brake upgrade if there is such a beast.


I understand, but with an old car (and yeah, Fieros are old now)... systems are worn from age and in the case of brakes, contamination. You may fix one problem, then another appears. on my old '73 International Harvester pickup, I had to replace everything that was suspect in the braking system. So far, those drum brakes work well again, but I had to overall everything to be be sure that I didn't have another failure. BTW, there are multiple brake upgrades available. You can perform a search in the Tech section for more information. Just remember 88s have different brakes that will not directly bolt on.
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quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:


Guess I've always been in the mindset of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". I would rather find the actual component that is broke and fix that instead of throwing good money over bad replacing perfectly good parts. If I'm going to replace everything I would rather do a big brake upgrade if there is such a beast.


I hear ya, but the rubber lines are service parts..7-10 years.. and replace.. I'm sure they are over due..
deglaze the rotors and pads and see what ya get ..
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Report this Post08-18-2016 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86FerrariClick Here to Email 86FerrariSend a Private Message to 86FerrariEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So is there a big brake upgrade for Fiero? My car has 17" wheels so I have more room than stock to put something larger back there if available.
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Report this Post08-18-2016 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

So is there a big brake upgrade for Fiero? My car has 17" wheels so I have more room than stock to put something larger back there if available.


Many have done so with parts from other cars and built adapters. I would start with using the search function for this forum, or use google: "brake upgrade site:www.fiero.nl"

(sorry, I haven't kept up on these upgrades, so you can search or others can chime in).
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Report this Post08-18-2016 02:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageClick Here to Email fierofoolSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think The Fiero Store still sells a complete brake upgrade package.
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quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:

So is there a big brake upgrade for Fiero? My car has 17" wheels so I have more room than stock to put something larger back there if available.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

if you want more after that I sell a bigger booster. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060500.html


It is the single biggest brake upgrade you can get, and it works with all bigger rotor upgrades.

And yes tires make a huge difference, with the better tire tech now compared when Fieros first came out, if you can lock it up you need better tires, (or better roads) Just because they are new, doesn't mean they are new, date codes on the tires mean alot, new could be sitting on a self for years, new could also not mean sticky tires. I mean good sticky tires, with good sticky tires, all the brakes upgrades, the car stops on a dime and makes you eyes pop out of your head. EVERYONE overestimates the value of good tires.
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Report this Post08-19-2016 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
EVERYONE overestimates the value of good tires.


Under estimates
Wouldn't want your point to get lost.

It has always amazed me too how much tire choice changes the ride as well as stopping and cornering, and grip in a launch.
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Report this Post08-19-2016 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86Ferrari:
So is there a big brake upgrade for Fiero? My car has 17" wheels so I have more room than stock to put something larger back there if available.
Just saying have 17" wheel is not enough. Size of tires on your wheels? Does matter or not depend on New size vs OE size.

Note that you can get 17 tires with total diameter Smaller the Fiero OE tire. All depends on width and profile.
Example: 215/45-17 is very close to OE but 220/35-17 is over 1" smaller in diameter then 195/70-14

If total diameter is close to OE tires, should still lock many w/o much effort. Use miata.net tire calc or https://tiresize.com/calculator/ to compare. (tiresize calc doesn't need Java but Miata.net does to generate visuals.)

Sticky tires and/or total diameter More then 2-3" over OE might not lock easy or at all BUT standing on the pedal to stop Is Not Normal and signs of brake problems.

Total diameter can/will affect braking and total gearing of the car because big tires make long levels to both. (Gearing See my Cave, Gear Ratio)
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Report this Post08-19-2016 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Many of todays tires, are long life tires, 50-60k miles or more , and on top of that made to help fuel mileage..
this = very hard compound tires..
they even have tires that the top selling point is fuel mileage and are even harder..
these slide when pushed..
on a sports car you have to know what type tire you are buying.. or it'll handle like crap, brake like crap and be a mess when pushed to limits..
very few of the tires on a shelf at a tire store are true performance tires.. anything with a 40k+ mileage rating is not a performance tire the compound to make them last that long has to be hard..
This is the reason more true performance tires have a life of under 20 k miles soft compound treads
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Report this Post08-19-2016 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The key to tires today is being informed on what you are buying. Too often people buy the wrong tires for the wrong reasons. Too often it is based on price since they are so expensive anymore.

The key to tires is one to match the tire to the vehicles needs. Then find the model that matches the drivers driving habits and conditions.

Like Athletic shoes they all may be for sports but not necessarily the same sport.

Same on models of tires. Companies like Michelin, Goodyear and others will have a line like Pilot or Eagle but offer 20 kinds of each. Not only do you need to match the tire to the need but the newness of the model too. Some Pilots can be old and really poor tires but the newest Pilot can also be the best on the market because it incorporates all the new compounding and technology. The name is often misleading on these tires.

As the Ogre stated diameter also plays in. So many people put the big wheels on cars and SUV models but never upgrade the brakes in size to match the increase in leverage the larger wheels. These wheels add much to the stopping distance and I have seen more than one crash because in some cases the vehicle just take more space to stop.

Finally on brakes pads are where the stopping really is. If you want to upgrade a stock system you need to look to the pads.

The better pads do work better and control heat much better. So many go for drilled and slotted rotors and are fooled that they increase performance. The fact is a drilled rotor has less metal and less metal to soak up heat and dissipate it. These rotors are great for cosmetics and looking better. Or if you want less unsprung weight but nothing more.

If you look at most race cars today they are solid rotors and only may have slots to clean the pads at application from rubber build up on the track. Drag cars will use drilled for less weight as they are limited use.

Finally like some have stated here bed in and seat your brakes as the directions state. Too few and even good mechanics fail to do this to even customer cars. This will increase the wear and performance of your pads and it really is important.

Last but not least most of todays cars use ball bearings in their sealed hub bearings. These can get damaged easily and often it will lead to the wheel gaining a small wobble. This leads to brake pulse as it wears the rotors uneven in thickness. They do not warp but wear in uneven thickness in less than a few thousand miles. Check you hubs for play to make sure they are in spec. This will save you grief later of a pulsing pedal. Also the bedding in helps prevent pulse in the brakes as the pad material will be even and not grip and release.
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When I went to drilled and slotted rotors all my brake fade went away, so there is some truth to it. Drilled and or slotted = more surface area for heat to dissipate, and less surface area on the pads for more friction. Don't knock it until you tried it. I wouldn't say it stopped quicker, but the fade went away.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 08-20-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
you can't legally do this at all..
if a lawyer ever found this,, you'd loose everything.. thisi s why most shops will push a car out of the shop and not let it be driven away if the brakes are shot and the owner say's slap it back together.. it must leave on a hook.. even if it's just out of the parking lot of the shop. it left on a hook.. taking the liabilitiy off the shop.


Only in Taxachusettes, many states still don't require a safety inspection.

If it has not been said before, replace any rubber lines, they have a tendency to rot from the inside out, they look good on the outside but the insides get plugged with the rotten rubber. Vacuum lines can do the same thing and you may never notice it unless under power, vacuum.

If it still has the original calipers and the ebrake was never used, IE automatic, people who drive autos rarely use the parking brake. it is just asking for trouble not using it, especially when parked on a hill with an auto, follow the caves instructions for adjusting the ebrake. make sure the piston actually works as it is supposed to.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post08-20-2016 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Only in Taxachusettes, many states still don't require a safety inspection.


Steve



ya, ok,,
ask any insurance company.. no matter the state.. you mickey mouse your brakes and they can and will deny a claim.. knowingly removing a safety item.. lawyers in every state love you
heck ask any shop in any state.. if they'll do it, and you'll get no... unless it is a no paper work ,cash job..
i.e. no record of them touching your car..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-20-2016).]

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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:


ya, ok,,
ask any insurance company.. no matter the state.. you mickey mouse your brakes and they can and will deny a claim.. knowingly removing a safety item.. lawyers in every state love you
heck ask any shop in any state.. if they'll do it, and you'll get no... unless it is a no paper work ,cash job..
i.e. no record of them touching your car..



So many member replace their rear brake calipers with fronts from other vehicles that it is ridiculous, sure it maybe illegal in Taxachusettes but like many other things, like removing the cat, but many people do it. Also, the ebrake as many people like to call these is not what they are, they are parking brakes.


Alabama

Safety inspections are required prior to sale or transfer of ownership. Cities may provide for inspection of motor vehicles operated on its streets, alleys, or highways.

Alaska

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. State troopers may inspect vehicles at roadside when there is reasonable cause to believe vehicle is unsafe.

Arizona

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. If at any time there is reasonable cause to believe a vehicle is unsafe or improperly equipped, officers and employees of the Department of Public Safety may stop and require a vehicle be submitted to inspection.

Arkansas

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. An officer can stop a vehicle for a safety inspection if he believes that the vehicle is unsafe to operate. The officer can issue a safety citation, and the vehicle must be repaired.

California

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. Officers of the California Highway Patrol that believe a vehicle is being operated in an unsafe condition as to endanger any person may require the driver of the vehicle to stop and submit to an inspection of the vehicle.

Colorado

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. Uniformed police officers at any time, upon reasonable cause, may require the driver of a vehicle to stop and submit vehicle and its equipment to an inspection.

Connecticut

Commercial vehicles over 18,000 pounds GVWR, trailers over 10,000 pounds, ‘grey market’ vehicles, and cars being registered from out of state must pass a safety inspection. Visit the Connecticut DMV for a complete list of other vehicles needing safety inspections.

Delaware

Before the DOT registers or renews the registration of a vehicle, such vehicle shall be inspected by the DOT and determined to be safe and fit for operation and found equipped according to the law. Motor vehicle dealers are able to inspect motor vehicles 5 model years old or newer that are owned by that dealership. The DOT may waive all inspection requirements of vehicles under 5,000 lbs. no older than the last 5 model years.

At any time any authorized agent of the DOT or any police officer may, upon reasonable cause, require the owner or operator of a vehicle to stop and submit such vehicle and the equipment for a safety inspection.

District of Columbia

Safety inspections are no longer required for private vehicles but are still required for commercial vehicles.

Florida

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. Any police officer may at any time, upon reasonable cause to believe that a vehicle is unsafe or not equipped as required by law, or that its equipment is not in proper adjustment or repair, require the driver of the vehicle to stop and submit the vehicle to an inspection.

Georgia

No periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. Any law enforcement officer may conduct an inspection of any vehicle suspected of being operated in an unsafe condition.

No person may drive or move on any highway any motor vehicle or trailer unless the equipment is in good working order and adjustment as required by law and the vehicle is in a safe mechanical condition that will not endanger the driver, other occupant, or any person on the highway.

Hawaii

All vehicles having a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 10,000 lbs. or less must obtain a certificate of inspection prior to the issuance of registration, and all such vehicles must be certified every 12 months.

Vehicles with a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs., as well as taxicabs, buses, and ambulances must obtain a certificate of inspection prior to the issuance of registration, and must be certified every 6 months.

Stickers indicating issuance of a certificate of inspection must be affixed to the vehicle.

Operation of a vehicle that has not been granted a certificate of inspection carries a fine of not more than $100.

Any police officer of any county may require the owner of a vehicle to submit the vehicle for inspection.

Idaho

There is no periodic statewide safety inspection requirement.

Illinois

There is no periodic statewide safety inspection requirement for passenger vehicles. Vehicles over 8,000 lbs. or designed to carry 10 or more passengers must submit to a safety inspection and secure a certificate of safety furnished by DOT.

Indiana

There is no periodic statewide safety inspection requirement.

The police have the authority to check a vehicle to determine whether it is safe. The police can check the following: the vehicle’s brakes; headlights; taillights; brake lights; clearance lights; turn signals; the vehicle’s steering and suspension; the vehicle’s exhaust systems; the vehicle’s body in general; and the vehicle’s tires.

If the inspection reveals that a vehicle meets the previously mentioned safety requirements, the inspecting officer shall issue to the owner of the vehicle a certificate stating that the vehicle was inspected and that it met the safety requirements.

Iowa

There is no periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. Peace officers may stop and inspect a vehicle if the officer has reasonable cause to believe it is a danger to other motorists or lacks required equipment.

Kansas

There is no periodic statewide safety inspection requirement. The Kansas Highway Patrol is authorized to conduct a spot inspection of the mechanical condition of any vehicle where signs are displayed requiring such stop, or at any time upon reasonable cause to believe that a vehicle is unsafe or not equipped as required by law.


Kentucky

There is no periodic statewide vehicle safety inspection requirement.

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/safety-inspection/

and that is just the tip of the iceberg, many more at the link.
a cop in any of those state can give you a ticket for defective equipment, but usually those are for bald tires or no exhaust. You really need to have your dad drive you to other states, because just because something is illegal in Taxachusettes does not mean it is everywhere.

Steve

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Report this Post08-21-2016 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
again.. as seen as you are going to keep going..
liability lawyers love people that think like you..
and why no shop would ever do it..
even in states with no inspection.. Federal regs trump the state DMV..
OEm's don't engineer and install parking brakes in cars in all 50 states because they want to.. they have no choice, or it only be installed in states that require it to pass inspection and not all 50.. funny that is not reality..

even your own post in another thread, you say the same thing



There is a difference between replacing tires or wheels with a different size one. and completely removing something from the cooling system, if that the case and you are right, why not replace the water pump with a steel plate, hey that belt is a pain in the ass to replace anyway right?

I worked for GM at the MA assembly plant and I can tell you that if GM thought it wasn't needed they would not have put it in there. they, GM is cheap and at how much that must have cost to buy and put in GM would not have put it in if it wasn't needed. Mustangs had a problem at speeds that were over 90 MPH handling wise, so they put 2 diagonal braces in.

and for that matter remove the dog bone, hey it would make something else easier to do if it wasn't there.

they put it in to make sure those parts don't fail prematurely. it may make little difference in Maine for me, but if I ever go to visit 82TAatwork in Florida I bet the dam fans never stop running. these cars are made to run in all sorts of weather conditions from Canada to Mexico. it might not be important today, but tomorrow if you decide to move it could be the difference between having to replace the alternator or coil.

Hey I had a 77 LTD II back in the 80s that had a recall for jumping into reverse when you slammed the door and the cost of fixing that when they built it would have been .05 that's right 5 cents while they were building the dam thing, yet they decided not to put the more expensive pin in the trany. over the model run that 5 cents would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. car company's are cheap, they won't put crap in if they don't have to.

Steve



First thing inspectors do in a wreck if you claim you lost your brakes is look to see if you did, and then why.. remove parking brake and you'll get a citation for improper equipment , driving to endanger, among others.. and the other vehicles insurance and their lawyers will be more than happy to use this against you.. and they will win.. and the insurance company has the right to not cover your claim and the other vehicles claim, leaving you up ______creek without a paddle..
Knowingly removing d.o.t. required safety equipment is a nono in all public roadways in all 50 states..
The right to cancel coverage and not honor your claim is also in every insurance policy .. Even the classic auto insurance, if you removed d.o.t. required equipment they don't cover you.. and you best have it insured as a offroad/race vehicle../show

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-21-2016).]

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