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New Products you want to see in the future for Fieros! by Villain
Started on: 08-14-2016 03:29 AM
Replies: 44 (1194 views)
Last post by: stickboy on 08-27-2016 11:23 AM
lou_dias
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Report this Post08-26-2016 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Er, no. This is not quite true. The starter for the combustion engine in a hybrid vehicle is still a 12v starter. In some cases it may be relocated and belt driven to turn the crank at the front of the engine, rather than engaging with a flywheel or flexplate. It is not the electric drive motor(s) in a hybrid car. In many hybrids, the combustion engine isn't always running and may be stopped and started arbitrarily. You certainly want the additional load of the engine engaging while you're cruising down the highway and it becomes necessary to start the engine to provide additional charge or to take over. It would not be a smooth transition at all.

Afaik, we are both right as there is more than one way to skin a cat. In the case of the Prius, it also employs a CVT, the electric engine does replace the starter. If not fuel is being supplied to the engine, it's no different than cylinder deactivation as the electric motor is still turning it...however it has a secondary system to support regenerative braking... I say to heck with that and one step at a time. For instance you could mount the secondary system in the front since that's where most of the braking happens anyway...
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Report this Post08-26-2016 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Afaik, we are both right as there is more than one way to skin a cat. In the case of the Prius, it also employs a CVT, the electric engine does replace the starter. If not fuel is being supplied to the engine, it's no different than cylinder deactivation as the electric motor is still turning it...however it has a secondary system to support regenerative braking... I say to heck with that and one step at a time. For instance you could mount the secondary system in the front since that's where most of the braking happens anyway...


I think you are confused about how regenerative braking works. It has nothing to do with the combustion engine. It's the same as coasting to a stop in a manual car, versus just throwing in neutral and smashing the brakes to the floor. For hybrids/electrics with regenerative braking, the electric motor is turned by the wheels, rather than powering the motion of the wheels, which causes the motor to generate electricity rather than use it, and that generated electricity is stored in the batteries for the electric motor.

Using the electric engine to start the combustion engine in a hybrid car is very different from cylinder deactivation. Cylinder deactivation doesn't simply remove the fuel supply, but keeps the valves closed, so that the deactivated cylinders are filled with a gas which compresses and expands, just like in a gas shock absorber. Yes, the Toyota uses an electric motor that is part of the drive system to start the engine, and the engine in the Prius is not always running. This works in Toyota's design, because the electric drive actually has two motors, and the one used to start the engine when needed, can be disconnected from the driveline with a clutch. Honda's IMA might be a better comparison, but it can't stop/start the engine at will. The engine only shuts down while braking. The Honda system has an auxiliary 12V starter though, so that the combustion engine can be started when the electric drive batteries do not have enough charge to turn the engine over.

But in the end, a bolt-in kit to add an electric drive system to the Fiero, would be costly to engineer and market, and would have a very stiff price. I wouldn't expect anything close to it to come out of this thread (really, I wouldn't expect anything to come out of this thread, since the OP hasn't actually been involved in it, beyond starting it).
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lou_dias
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Report this Post08-26-2016 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I think you are confused about how regenerative braking works. It has nothing to do with the combustion engine. It's the same as coasting to a stop in a manual car, versus just throwing in neutral and smashing the brakes to the floor. For hybrids/electrics with regenerative braking, the electric motor is turned by the wheels, rather than powering the motion of the wheels, which causes the motor to generate electricity rather than use it, and that generated electricity is stored in the batteries for the electric motor.

Using the electric engine to start the combustion engine in a hybrid car is very different from cylinder deactivation. Cylinder deactivation doesn't simply remove the fuel supply, but keeps the valves closed, so that the deactivated cylinders are filled with a gas which compresses and expands, just like in a gas shock absorber. Yes, the Toyota uses an electric motor that is part of the drive system to start the engine, and the engine in the Prius is not always running. This works in Toyota's design, because the electric drive actually has two motors, and the one used to start the engine when needed, can be disconnected from the driveline with a clutch. Honda's IMA might be a better comparison, but it can't stop/start the engine at will. The engine only shuts down while braking. The Honda system has an auxiliary 12V starter though, so that the combustion engine can be started when the electric drive batteries do not have enough charge to turn the engine over.

But in the end, a bolt-in kit to add an electric drive system to the Fiero, would be costly to engineer and market, and would have a very stiff price. I wouldn't expect anything close to it to come out of this thread (really, I wouldn't expect anything to come out of this thread, since the OP hasn't actually been involved in it, beyond starting it).

I think you read about the Prius wrong, the one used to start the car also assists it or replaces it when no fuel is supplied to the ICE.
I'm not confused. One for discharging the battery and moving the transmission forward AND ... under braking, it is disengaged and the other motor wired to charge the battery engages and is turned by the transmission as the car slows down. But again, the one for moving the car forward does replace the starter. In the case of the Prius, the ICE is small so it's not much of a drag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

I don't know if you've ever (with a manual transmission) turned off your engine on the highway in neutral and then turned the key to on and then released the clutch pedal, but it doesn't take much to "pop-start" an ICE and at those speeds its not much of a jolt at all in the higher gears.

But again, what I was referring to is how to apply such technology to a Fiero 2.8 or 2.5. Again, the regenerative component can be at the front but there are no axles their to turn it currently. As for the forward moving electric engine that replaces the starter and assists/(works despite) the engine, you would probably have to cut the cradle and weld in more support for it to be mounted.

A NetGain WarP 7 motor goes to 7800rpm and can make 240 ft*lbs... It's only 7" in diameter!!!

Yes, I know nothing will come of this thread ... but I like to dream...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-26-2016).]

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dobey
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Report this Post08-26-2016 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
I think you read about the Prius wrong, the one used to start the car also assists it or replaces it when no fuel is supplied to the ICE.
I'm not confused. One for discharging the battery and moving the transmission forward AND ... under braking, it is disengaged and the other motor wired to charge the battery engages and is turned by the transmission as the car slows down. But again, the one for moving the car forward does replace the starter. In the case of the Prius, the ICE is small so it's not much of a drag.


I didn't say the secondary motor which is used to start the engine doesn't also drive the car. I said it is a second motor and can be disengaged to start the engine. Both motors are used to charge the high voltage battery.

Though it does seem like I was wrong, as during highway driving it appears the electric motors are not used to drive the wheels at all, and only the ICE is used, while the electric motor charges the batteries instead.
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stickboy
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Report this Post08-27-2016 11:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stickboySend a Private Message to stickboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bolt on HD front wheel bearings for an 88
Chin spoiler for the later coupe bumpers
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