Influence of Islamic Thought on Some Founding Fathers of America AUTHOR: Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah
This is a long, scholarly article, so I am not pasting up any excerpts from it.
It seems that there are a number of PFF members who have enough of an appetite for philosophical discourse that they may take the time to read some of this.
Therefore, the American dream “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” is a summarized version of the five objectives of Islamic Shari’ah highlighted by Ibn Tufail and incorporated by John Lock in his Treatises. There is no inherent conflict between the American dream and principles of the Islamic Shari’ah. Americans need not fear Islam or Islamic Shari’ah and Muslims should not hate, despise or doubt the American dream. In its purest sense it is nothing but a reflection of their religious ideals and a manifestation of their lost legacy
That's special.
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07:36 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by fierobear: Not if you apply Sharia law. Doesn't seems like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
quote
Originally posted by User00013170: Ya, sure. You go on believing that. And in unicorns...
And what do either of you know, really, about Sharia law?
loafer87gt quotes one renegade Muslim cleric based in London. I quote 200 Muslim scholars from all around the world, including the Middle East, where Islam originated, in regards to Sharia law. Whose post is more accurately informed?
User00013170: Judging from your posts, I suspect that you actually know very little about Osama bin Laden and his motives in regards to the attacks of 9-11.
Treaty of Tripoli - Submitted by George Washington, Signed by John Adams and ratified by the Senate in and therefore law of the land in 1797.
Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
You know! For those who think we were founded as a Christian Nation.
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12:09 AM
PFF
System Bot
crashyoung Member
Posts: 1333 From: Lowell, Michigan, USA Registered: May 2012
If you read the original charters of several of the colonies before the union was formed, Christianity was the only religion allowed in many places. It took many fights to get the constitution ratified with the new language saying Christianity was not the primary religion. But it allowed for the future that the founding fathers saw coming! People of any or even no faith can exist here, as long as they do so peacefully.
Only one of many resources indicating that lies are allowed and sanctioned. Examples abound, do some research.
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:
And what do either of you know, really, about Sharia law?
loafer87gt quotes one renegade Muslim cleric based in London. I quote 200 Muslim scholars from all around the world, including the Middle East, where Islam originated, in regards to Sharia law. Whose post is more accurately informed?
User00013170: Judging from your posts, I suspect that you actually know very little about Osama bin Laden and his motives in regards to the attacks of 9-11.
I find this post to be particularly misleading. You are implying that only one "renegade" cleric is inciting viloence while the rest do not, this simply isn't the case. If this were true, why don't the rest of the clerics denounce this supposed renegade? Listen----- nothing but silence.
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 07-30-2012).]
Originally posted by Sourmug: I find this post to be particularly misleading. You are implying that only one "renegade" cleric is inciting violence while the rest do not, this simply isn't the case. If this were true, why don't the rest of the clerics denounce this supposed renegade? Listen----- nothing but silence.
If you want to get a more accurate picture of Islam, you can't just listen to what the mainstream media decides to spoon-feed to you. You have to look. Here's something that another PFF poster had to say about this:
I am amused by the fools crying about not hearing "the good" muslims condemning the bad ones. just what is it you expect them to do? call you on the phone? buy some advertising time on whatever TV time you watch? being it isnt very exciting for news to cover, they (CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC) are not gonna do it for you. if you want to hear it - you actually have to talk to them. they are everywhere. and NOT blowing stuff up (or burning stuff).
As far as this "lying" business, you cannot just take any one line out of the Koran and uphold it as an example of Sharia law.
It's the role of Muslim scholarship to inform the faithful about how to interpret the Koran (and the Hadith) in the context of the modern world.
This isn't limited to Muslims - Lying for the Lord isn't unique to them. They only justify it differently.
nope it is not.. but at this time they are the only ones killing in the name of.. enmass and forcing their lord on people or your dead.. sorry.. muslims, are more in the stone age than rome.. and thats say'n something.. even on their own t.v. and radio (state owned) no one denounces the killings, the be headings,, none of it.. only time any of them denounce any of it. is when they have their hands out looking for aid(money) from the free world.. you know.. the evil west..
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02:55 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Treaty of Tripoli - Submitted by George Washington, Signed by John Adams and ratified by the Senate in and therefore law of the land in 1797.
Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
You know! For those who think we were founded as a Christian Nation.
Guess that was before we sent in the Marines and penned the Marine Hymn.
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03:19 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
iirc it was founded on religous freedom.. something muslims laws don't allow..
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
Treaty of Tripoli - Submitted by George Washington, Signed by John Adams and ratified by the Senate in and therefore law of the land in 1797.
Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
You know! For those who think we were founded as a Christian Nation.
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03:39 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by E.Furgal: nope it is not.. but at this time they are the only ones killing in the name of.. enmass and forcing their lord on people or your dead.. sorry.. muslims, are more in the stone age than rome.. and thats say'n something.. even on their own t.v. and radio (state owned) no one denounces the killings, the be headings,, none of it.. only time any of them denounce any of it. is when they have their hands out looking for aid(money) from the free world.. you know.. the evil west..
Your conflict isn't with Islam itself--it's with the many Muslims (especially in the Middle East) who violate Islam, either out of ignorance or because they have ulterior motives and an "ends justifies the means" mentality.
These recent posts on PFF are nothing more than slander, quite similar to the reverse-slander that comes out of the mouths of the most vile radical Islamists. (It's ironic, but an "Islamist" has come to mean someone who violates Islam.)
Here are some of the people that are being slandered on PFF:
Heroes Among Us - Profiles of Courage (4th Edition) Colonel Douglas Burpee Contributed by: Muslim Military Members Webmaster
His call sign is “Hadji,” meaning “one who has made a pilgrimage to Mecca.”
“It’s a pilot thing,” explains Colonel Douglas Burpee, the highest ranking Muslim officer in the U.S. Marine Corps. Now in his 23rd year of military service, Colonel Burpee recently returned from flying helicopters in Afghanistan.
“Everyone knows I’m a Muslim. When I fly, attached to my dog tags, I wear a pendant with a passage from the Koran,” he says. “I try to set a good example based upon what I believe…. I can be a soldier and a Muslim at the same time. I have no problem with that.” In the era of the war on terror, the example of a devout Muslim serving in the American Military is a heartening sign that highlights the difference between America and its self-appointed enemies in this conflict. This is not a clash of civilizations, but a fight between a modern pluralistic democracy and intolerant murders who have hijacked one of the world’s great faiths.
Certainly that’s Colonel Burpee’s view. “These people who commit terrorism have just adopted the face of Islam - nothing they say or do have anything to do with Islam,” he says. “The Taliban is a terrorist organization - they are bad people doing bad things and they’ve attached religion to it. They are ruthless when it comes to killing people, but that’s how you move helpless people around - you use fear.”
Out of the 1.4 million service men and women serving actively in the American military, an estimated 3,700 are Muslim, according to the Department of Defense.
Colonel Burpee’s path to both Islam and the military is not necessarily typical. With blond hair that is now going gray, he was born in America and raised Episcopalian. He converted to Islam when he was 19 for a very American reason: “I met a pretty girl” - an Egyptian woman named Hala who was a fellow student at the University of Southern California in the late 1970s. Three years later he was accepted at the Officers Candidates’ School in Quantico, Va. Now he and Hala and their five sons live in Glendale, Calif.
“We believe in god and family and prayer - the same things as everyone who believes in religion,” he says. But his reaction to September 11th fit a less typical script. “I watched the attacks on TV, like everybody else. The first thing we did afterwards was go to the mosque because people were concerned about a backlash. On the other hand, I had to call into my squadron and ask, ‘Hey, are we being activated?’” Colonel Burpee straddles his two worlds, but he is not typical of Islam or the military.
Perhaps a more typical portrait of a Muslim soldier in the U.S. military comes from Sergeant Youseff Mandour of the U.S. Army. He immigrated to America from Morocco at the age of 17 and joined the army at age 22. Now 25, he just returned from 12 months in Iraq. Like Colonel Burpee, he aspires to a lifelong career in the military. “I’m fighting for a better life and a belief in freedom,” he says. “I had a chance to get involved. I learned the English language and appreciate everything this country has given to me. That’s why I joined the Army. The U.S. is doing great things.”
Sergeant Mandour takes special offense at the terrorists who murder in the name of his faith. “The war on terror is not about Islam. This is a war against criminals who use religion to say they are good people, but they’re no better than the Mafia. They’re just common criminals, many with criminal records … It was great that I got to use my training against people who tried to kill us and who tried to give a wrong idea about my religion.”
Nor is Sergeant Mandour agnostic about the war in Iraq. “We are not there to fight Islam but spread democracy. I feel very ashamed for those like Osama Bin Laden who use the religion of Islam and call for a jihad. You can’t call a jihad against people trying to help, and I believe we are helping people in Iraq. I helped more people in Iraq than I ever did in my life as a soldier and as a Muslim.” Few people in the world can view the war on terror with more clarity than Muslim soldiers serving in the U.S. military. While figures like Osama Bin Laden and his henchmen try to divide the world by arguing that the war on terror is really a war between Islam and the west, our Islamic soldiers’ example exposes their rhetoric for the lie that it is. The west is not a religion. It is instead a pluralistic place that opens its arms to all people of good faith regardless of race, nationality, or religion. And if soldiers who are proud to be American and Muslim at the same time can help heal some of the existing divides by the strength of their example, so much the better.
These Muslim U.S. soldiers are, in some ways, the point men in this moment in our history, exemplifying the new edge of a far older trend. As Colonel Burpee says, “My family first came here as French Huguenots a few hundred years ago. They were oppressed and they came to America because it allowed them to practice their religion and live in freedom. That is the same reason that the Muslims have come here … So is there a clash of civilizations? I don’t think so. I think you have an old world and a new world. And we are the new world.”
Of course, this (PFF) is just a fairly obscure node in cyberspace, not some significant international forum, so the net result of all this stupidity is zero (except to insult the one PFF member who is known to be a Muslim).
I don't mind if people want to continue posting this reckless and undiscriminating slander, if it makes them feel better in some way.
I have found it worth my time to try and respond. Although I may run out of time and energy..
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 07-31-2012).]
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03:42 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
You continue to insult the Muslims that have come to Western countries--particularly the U.S.--to live under freedom.
But in order to understand this, you would have to stop posting your misinformation for awhile and go back and read some of the many links and quotations that I have posted. Just a few posts back, on this very thread. Like here:
Your conflict isn't with Islam itself--it's with the many Muslims (especially in the Middle East) who violate Islam, either out of ignorance or because they have ulterior motives and an "ends justifies the means" mentality.
These recent posts on PFF are nothing more than slander, quite similar to the reverse-slander that comes out of the mouths of the most vile radical Islamists. (It's ironic, but an "Islamist" has come to mean someone who violates Islam.)
Here are some of the people that are being slandered on PFF:
Heroes Among Us - Profiles of Courage (4th Edition) Colonel Douglas Burpee Contributed by: Muslim Military Members Webmaster
His call sign is “Hadji,” meaning “one who has made a pilgrimage to Mecca.”
“It’s a pilot thing,” explains Colonel Douglas Burpee, the highest ranking Muslim officer in the U.S. Marine Corps. Now in his 23rd year of military service, Colonel Burpee recently returned from flying helicopters in Afghanistan.
“Everyone knows I’m a Muslim. When I fly, attached to my dog tags, I wear a pendant with a passage from the Koran,” he says. “I try to set a good example based upon what I believe…. I can be a soldier and a Muslim at the same time. I have no problem with that.” In the era of the war on terror, the example of a devout Muslim serving in the American Military is a heartening sign that highlights the difference between America and its self-appointed enemies in this conflict. This is not a clash of civilizations, but a fight between a modern pluralistic democracy and intolerant murders who have hijacked one of the world’s great faiths.
Certainly that’s Colonel Burpee’s view. “These people who commit terrorism have just adopted the face of Islam - nothing they say or do have anything to do with Islam,” he says. “The Taliban is a terrorist organization - they are bad people doing bad things and they’ve attached religion to it. They are ruthless when it comes to killing people, but that’s how you move helpless people around - you use fear.”
Out of the 1.4 million service men and women serving actively in the American military, an estimated 3,700 are Muslim, according to the Department of Defense.
Colonel Burpee’s path to both Islam and the military is not necessarily typical. With blond hair that is now going gray, he was born in America and raised Episcopalian. He converted to Islam when he was 19 for a very American reason: “I met a pretty girl” - an Egyptian woman named Hala who was a fellow student at the University of Southern California in the late 1970s. Three years later he was accepted at the Officers Candidates’ School in Quantico, Va. Now he and Hala and their five sons live in Glendale, Calif.
“We believe in god and family and prayer - the same things as everyone who believes in religion,” he says. But his reaction to September 11th fit a less typical script. “I watched the attacks on TV, like everybody else. The first thing we did afterwards was go to the mosque because people were concerned about a backlash. On the other hand, I had to call into my squadron and ask, ‘Hey, are we being activated?’” Colonel Burpee straddles his two worlds, but he is not typical of Islam or the military.
Perhaps a more typical portrait of a Muslim soldier in the U.S. military comes from Sergeant Youseff Mandour of the U.S. Army. He immigrated to America from Morocco at the age of 17 and joined the army at age 22. Now 25, he just returned from 12 months in Iraq. Like Colonel Burpee, he aspires to a lifelong career in the military. “I’m fighting for a better life and a belief in freedom,” he says. “I had a chance to get involved. I learned the English language and appreciate everything this country has given to me. That’s why I joined the Army. The U.S. is doing great things.”
Sergeant Mandour takes special offense at the terrorists who murder in the name of his faith. “The war on terror is not about Islam. This is a war against criminals who use religion to say they are good people, but they’re no better than the Mafia. They’re just common criminals, many with criminal records … It was great that I got to use my training against people who tried to kill us and who tried to give a wrong idea about my religion.”
Nor is Sergeant Mandour agnostic about the war in Iraq. “We are not there to fight Islam but spread democracy. I feel very ashamed for those like Osama Bin Laden who use the religion of Islam and call for a jihad. You can’t call a jihad against people trying to help, and I believe we are helping people in Iraq. I helped more people in Iraq than I ever did in my life as a soldier and as a Muslim.” Few people in the world can view the war on terror with more clarity than Muslim soldiers serving in the U.S. military. While figures like Osama Bin Laden and his henchmen try to divide the world by arguing that the war on terror is really a war between Islam and the west, our Islamic soldiers’ example exposes their rhetoric for the lie that it is. The west is not a religion. It is instead a pluralistic place that opens its arms to all people of good faith regardless of race, nationality, or religion. And if soldiers who are proud to be American and Muslim at the same time can help heal some of the existing divides by the strength of their example, so much the better.
These Muslim U.S. soldiers are, in some ways, the point men in this moment in our history, exemplifying the new edge of a far older trend. As Colonel Burpee says, “My family first came here as French Huguenots a few hundred years ago. They were oppressed and they came to America because it allowed them to practice their religion and live in freedom. That is the same reason that the Muslims have come here … So is there a clash of civilizations? I don’t think so. I think you have an old world and a new world. And we are the new world.”
Of course, this (PFF) is just a fairly obscure node in cyberspace, not some significant international forum, so the net result of all this stupidity is zero (except to insult the one PFF member who is known to be a Muslim).
I don't mind if people want to continue posting this reckless and undiscriminating slander, if it makes them feel better in some way.
I have found it worth my time to try and respond. Although I may run out of time and energy..
have you read the cor an.. read it and understood what it says.. it's not slander. when it's in their book of god.. WOW
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04:06 PM
PFF
System Bot
E.Furgal Member
Posts: 11708 From: LAND OF CONFUSION Registered: Mar 2012
we where not founded on christianity.. so whats your point.. they came here to be free to choose to believe whatever faith.. it just happened to be one of the many that came over for that freedom
User00013170: Judging from your posts, I suspect that you actually know very little about Osama bin Laden and his motives in regards to the attacks of 9-11.
That is correct, but I don't need to know every intricacy of the Muslim faith or Bin Laden. I know its a direct threat to the way of life of the civilized world and needs to be eradicated, and that is all i need to know.
Originally posted by User00013170: Every modern christian i know is tolerant of other views. A few thousand years ago during the crusades, sure, things were different. But this is 2012.
so, what did they change in their books? education created this tolerance, and I expect that is what is needed with many of "them" as well.
it all goes back to 10 commandments, and "no other god before me"
and, no, not every christian is tolerant. there is the KKK. there is the Phelps. and many other religous conservatives. and I have not heard any xtian leader denounce them either. I certianly expect it has happened - but *I* havent heard it.
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04:24 PM
E.Furgal Member
Posts: 11708 From: LAND OF CONFUSION Registered: Mar 2012
so, what did they change in their books? education created this tolerance, and I expect that is what is needed with many of "them" as well.
it all goes back to 10 commandments, and "no other god before me"
and, no, not every christian is tolerant. there is the KKK. there is the Phelps. and many other religous conservatives. and I have not heard any xtian leader denounce them either. I certianly expect it has happened - but *I* havent heard it.
oh, now how did the kkk become christian.. oh brother..
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04:28 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20658 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Every modern christian i know is tolerant of other views. A few thousand years ago during the crusades, sure, things were different. But this is 2012.
And Playboy has an Indonesian version Mag. Indonesia is the largest Muslim populated country im the world. There are also Jewish synagogues and Christian churches all over the Muslim world, including Iran. Tolerance?
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04:29 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
so, what did they change in their books? education created this tolerance, and I expect that is what is needed with many of "them" as well.
it all goes back to 10 commandments, and "no other god before me"
and, no, not every christian is tolerant. there is the KKK. there is the Phelps. and many other religous conservatives. and I have not heard any xtian leader denounce them either. I certianly expect it has happened - but *I* havent heard it.
"No other god before me" does not say 'kill non believers'. If that is in there, i have not seen it. ( I not read it and never will, so i will fully admit i'm wrong if someone points it out.. but so far no one has been able to )
As far as 'education' moderating christians, i would have said the same thing back during the crusades; that they should have been wiped from the planet as a threat. I don't care if a religion may or many not 'grow up' in another 1000 years... 2012 is where we live today, if they are not mature *today* and pose a threat to the rest of us, burn them.
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04:31 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by User00013170: "No other god before me" does not say 'kill non believers'. If that is in there, i have not seen it. ( I not read it and never will, so i will fully admit i'm wrong if someone points it out.. but so far no one has been able to )
As far as 'education' moderating christians, i would have said the same thing back during the crusades; that they should have been wiped from the planet as a threat. I don't care if a religion may or many not 'grow up' in another 1000 years... 2012 is where we live today, if they are not mature *today* and pose a threat to the rest of us, burn them.
thats the thing. it has grown up. but, there are many religous conservative who have not. there are crazy jews as well. I wholeheartedly agree that religous conservatives who pose threats should be "dealt with". and that includes the xtian ones who call for killing.
