http://www.nationalreview.c...-victor-davis-hanson

quote Ancient Sparta turned its conquered neighbors into indentured serfs — half free, half slave. The resulting Helot underclass produced the food of the Spartan state, freeing Sparta’s elite males to train for war and the duties of citizenship. Over the last few decades, we’ve created our modern version of these Helots — millions of indebted young Americans with little prospect of finding permanent well-paying work, servicing their enormous college debts, or reaping commensurate financial returns on their costly educations. Student-loan debts now average about $25,000 per graduating senior. But the proportion of youths 16 to 24 who are working (about 49 percent) is the lowest since records have been kept. The cost of a four-year college education can range between $100,000 and $200,000 depending on whether the institution is public or private. Only 53 percent of today’s college students graduate within six years. Student time spent writing and reading in college has plummeted.

its hard for me to agree or disagree with this as i see why they think this but its kinda wrong in a way. i have about 5k in student loans and im unemployed although i have skills that can get me a job if i can find one that fits around my school schedual and pays well (i dont work for free) i went to a 5 hour interview today (tuesday) for a welding job that pays 10-14$ hr and im hoping ill hear somethign back by next week. so getting a job isnt so much a problem as having everythign line up and or being willing to go out and look. also i feel that you have to be responsible in taking out loans. i have tons of loans i CAN take out but choose not to because i have no need for them. so if your racking up 100K in loans for a hair stylist degree your stupid if your racking up a 100K for a PH D in nuclear physics id say your ahead of the game. its all about RESPONSIBILITY something ive noticed the younger generation seems to lack quite a bit of lately

Any PHDs for frier maintenance or burger microwave mechanic? Should be lots of those jobs today!

quote Originally posted by crashyoung: Any PHDs for frier maintenance or burger microwave mechanic? Should be lots of those jobs today!

Trust me, you dont WANT a job fixing commercial appliances.

I think a lot of the problem is just buyer's remorse. The mentality of a lot of people seems to be "I don't care what it costs right now, I'll pay it later (when I have this awesome $50k+/yr job right out of school)". When later comes, they regret spending more than they had to to get a degree that's not marketable. It's your choice if you want to spend thousands of dollars to get a degree in ancient eastern philosophy, but don't come cryin' to me when you can't get a job with it. Yes, college should be a time where you explore interests, but it's also a time to prepare you for the marketplace. Internships and networking are just as important as independent studies.

Gotta shift that debt somewhere.

It's fine to say that many students are foolish for following their dreams but many have been sold the idea that as long as they study, work hard and reach for the stars they can accomplish anything. Now that times have changed (higher unemployment...etc.) there are also plenty of graduates with USEFULL degrees that can't find work in their field and have a hard time paying off their massive loans.
Not to say that there aren't many who went to post secondary school knowing that their degree would be less marketable because there is pleny of that as well.

John Stossel did a show on student loans not that long ago. His bottom line: "For many people, college is a scam."

I agree. Not everyone NEEDS to go to college. Most of the people I work with, although they have degrees, I can only think of one that is actually woking in the field they have a degree in, but about 90% are still paying some sort of student loan back.


http://www.freedompolitics....people-students.html

quote by John Stossel What do Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Mark Cuban have in common? They're all college dropouts. Richard Branson, Simon Cowell and Peter Jennings have in common? They never went to college at all. But today all kids are told: To succeed, you must go to college. Hillary Clinton tells students: "Graduates from four-year colleges earn nearly twice as much as high school graduates, an estimated $1 million more." We hear that from people who run colleges. And it's true. But it leaves out some important facts. That's why I say: For many people, college is a scam. I spoke with Richard Vedder, author of "Going Broke by Degree: Why College Costs Too Much," and Naomi Schafer Riley, who just published "Faculty Lounges and Other Reasons Why You Won't Get the College Education You Paid For." Vedder explained why that million-dollar comparison is ridiculous: "People that go to college are different kind of people ... (more) disciplined ... smarter. They did better in high school." They would have made more money even if they never went to college. Riley says some college students don't get what they pay for because their professors have little incentive to teach. "You think you're paying for them to be in the classroom with you, but every hour a professor spends in the classroom, he gets paid less. The incentives are all for more research." The research is often on obscure topics for journals nobody reads. Also, lots of people not suited for higher education get pushed into it. This doesn't do them good. They feel like failures when they don't graduate. Vedder said two out of five students entering four-year programs don't have a bachelor's degree after year six. "Why do colleges accept (these students) in the first place?" Because money comes with the student -- usually government-guaranteed loans. "There are 80,000 bartenders in the United States with bachelor's degrees," Vedder said. He says that 17 percent of baggage porters and bellhops have a college degree, 15 percent of taxi and limo drivers. It's hard to pay off student loans with jobs like those. These days, many students graduate with big debts. Entrepreneur Peter Thiel, who got rich helping to build good things like PayPal and Facebook, is so eager to wake people up to alternatives to college that he's paying students $100,000 each if they drop out of college and do something else, like start a business. "We're asking nothing in return other than meetings so we make sure (they) work hard, and not be in school for two years," said Jim O'Neill, who runs the foundation. For some reason, this upsets the left. A Slate.com writer called Thiel's grant a "nasty idea" that leads students into "halting their intellectual development ... maintaining a narrow-minded focus on getting rich." But Darren Zhu, a grant winner who quit Yale for the $100,000, told me, "Building a start-up and learning the sort of hardships that are associated with building a company is a much better education path." I agree. Much better. Zhu plans to start a biotech company. What puzzles is me is why the market doesn't punish colleges that don't serve their customers well. The opposite has happened: Tuitions have risen four times faster than inflation. "There's a lot of bad information out there," Vedder replied. "We don't know ... if (students) learned anything" during their college years. "Do kids learn anything at Harvard? People at Harvard tell us they do. ... They were bright when they entered Harvard, but do ... seniors know more than freshman? The literacy rate among college graduates is lower today than it was 15 or 20 year ago. It is kind of hard for people to respond in market fashion when you don't have full information." Despite the scam, the Obama administration plans to increase the number of students getting Pell grants by 50 percent. And even a darling of conservatives, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, says college is a must: "Graduating from high school is just the first step." We need to wake people up.

The problem is everyone wants to go to college, but college is not for everyone. Schools and parents are pushing their kids into college and we now have people, college students, with borderline IQs. Like in high schools, the students are protesting the academics are too hard, simply because there focus is not academics, they are not smart, and so schools are dumbing down the academics. Since colleges are making money on students, they are opening small branch campuses, farming out the dumber kids to the branch campuses and keeping the smarter ones at the main campus.

Agreed, college is not for everyone, it's for smart people. But, like everything else, if there is money to be made, they will find a way to accomadate you.

quote Originally posted by newf: Gotta shift that debt somewhere. It's fine to say that many students are foolish for following their dreams but many have been sold the idea that as long as they study, work hard and reach for the stars they can accomplish anything. Now that times have changed (higher unemployment...etc.) there are also plenty of graduates with USEFULL degrees that can't find work in their field and have a hard time paying off their massive loans. Not to say that there aren't many who went to post secondary school knowing that their degree would be less marketable because there is pleny of that as well.

I agree with you as well. Higher unemployment/bad economy means more people will be without jobs, what degree you have being largely unimportant. When there's more applicants than there are jobs, people who are hiring can pick and choose. More often than not, they go for experience, not education. Also, you can get a degree in whatever xyz you find important from a variety of institutions with a range of costs, including local community colleges which can be MUCH cheaper. It's the choice of the student to turn up their nose and say "I won't get a degree unless it has _this_ level of prestige". The colleges are a business like anything else (as much as they would tell you otherwise). They do whatever advertising brings in the students and the $. If saying "go with us and you'll get a job" will bring in more students, that's what they all did. It was easy to swallow when everything was going well for the economy because there was correlation. Now that the economy is bad, people see that it wasn't causation. Now people are seeing it for what it is, marketing and advertising instead of truth.

Edit: Being sold on a concept ultimately falls on the consumer. I can believe that if I drink that lite beer I'll be attractive and have women falling all over me like the commercials. It's my fault for getting suckered by slick advertising and not calling it out for the bs that it is.

[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 07-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by kwagner: Edit: Being sold on a concept ultimately falls on the consumer. I can believe that if I drink that lite beer I'll be attractive and have women falling all over me like the commercials. It's my fault for getting suckered by slick advertising and not calling it out for the bs that it is.

So you don't drink beer now?

I don't drink, but kwagner, what did you do with all the women, and could any of them make biscuits?

No, student loans aren't the "new indentured servitude."
If you want to look at it like that, it would be more accurate to say all debt is indentured servitude and it's not new.

indenture: 1. a deed or agreement executed in two or more copies with edges correspondingly indented as a means of identification.
2. any deed, written contract, or sealed agreement.
3. a contract by which a person, as an apprentice, is bound to service.
4. any official or formal list, certificate, etc., authenticated for use as a voucher or the like.
5. the formal agreement between a group of bondholders and the debtor as to the terms of the debt.

Today a person voluntarily enters into an agreement by which they are given large amounts of money now in exchange for paying that money back plus interest over a long period of time. Indentured servitude would be agreeing to work for an entity until that obligation is paid off. Instead with a loan, you can work in any manner you wish and pay a portion of your income to repay your obligation.

Remember the TV show Northern Exposure? The doc got his medical college paid for in exchange for working as a doctor in Alaska for a period of time after he got his license. That's indentured servitude.

If new graduates are having such a hard time finding work and paying back their loans, then maybe indentured servitude would be a good choice for them. It guarantees them work in their field after graduation in exchange for paying for their schooling. Once it's paid off, they can go work whereever they like.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-18-2012).]

Colleges of today are a money making operation. When I went to college, I was able to pay for it while working part time as college costs were affordable. The colleges encourage kid to get a higher education and the government will loan them money. The colleges see this, then jack up the price of college, and the kids fall deeper into debt to get their education.

Have you noticed an abundance of TV advertisements for colleges for on line enrollment for classes. To me these appear to be diploma mills, pay and you get a diploma. Financing available for all.

quote Originally posted by newf: So you don't drink beer now?

I drink beer on occasion, but not because I believe it will make me attractive or surround me with women.

And heybjorn, my fiancee makes all the food I could ask for

I agree college is getting more expensive, but you don't rack up $100,000 in college bills going to a 4 year state college. Ivy league and private colleges have always been very expensive. When I was in college, back in the bronze age, tuition at North Carolina State was about $600 per semester (in state residents), while at Duke it was about $15,000. Today, in state tuition at NCSU is about $3900 per semester and at Duke it's about $22,000.

If you're working your way through college, going to a prestigious private college isn't likely within your reach and never has been.

quote Originally posted by dsnover: John Stossel did a show on student loans not that long ago. His bottom line: "For many people, college is a scam." I agree. Not everyone NEEDS to go to college. Most of the people I work with, although they have degrees, I can only think of one that is actually woking in the field they have a degree in, but about 90% are still paying some sort of student loan back. http://www.freedompolitics....people-students.html

I like Paul Thiel's idea....BUT, I have an issue with the "hard work" portion of it....it seems FAR too many people (the vast majority of North America) equate "hard work" with long-long hours at the same job every day, in order to acquire the largest cheque possible at that job, which is NOT necessarily true. It makes absoloutely no sense to be working beyond the legal 40 hours/8hours a day (in Ontario) for a take-home pay of 20 to 25/hr ---and then having to hire a "pro" at 50-125/hr to fix the car, or cut the grass, or maintain the house, or do the laundry, or whatever else you could have done with that time--OR buy new stuff when the old could have been saved IF you had the tie to look after it. THAT equates to a $30-$45/hr or more LOSS on your time. That "hard work" and "long hours" "work ethic" is ONLY advantageous if you take home MORE than it costs to hire those "pros"--and most people simply don't take that much home. But then I guess the human species aint that smart, because I have been arguing that with them for 20 years and they still cant pull their heads out of their butts. I really think that the lack of a "self-suffiency" ethic is what is behind the current credit/financial crisis (student loans included)...there are a lot of different variations on the theme, but it basically comes down to everybody so busy chasing more and more dollars, they forget what it COSTS them to earn those dollars, and then when they DO earn them--most of the time they get blown on useless stuff that people are bored with inside 6 months.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 07-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by kwagner: And heybjorn, my fiancee makes all the food I could ask for

As long as the food is tasty, you have made a good choice. We do need pics so we can see how much weight you gain your first year of marriage. I gained 25 pounds. Now, back to the topic: I never took a student loan.

No. It's not.

They told us we could do anything we set our minds to, sure. And that's true. I could be a rocket scientist if I worked my butt off, followed the right channels, networked around to meet the right people, studied all day, read books that weren't required all day, took classes that weren't required, built up my resume with any side job that remotely fit the bill, volunteered for Boeing student exercises that test our engineering and teamwork abilities (I did one), etc.

The problem is, people don't want to put in that effort. They want to be a musician, then don't practice every day, and if they do, they ONLY practice everyday. They want to be an actor, but won't go to acting school, or participate in school plays. They want to be an engineer, but hate math and won't work to understand it. They want to be a historian--great, get the degree and you know a ton about history; nobody said that was a paying job. They want to be a businessman at a nice company, so they just get their degree and expect to be a "businessman" at a "nice company"--whatever that means.

The people that are achieving right now are the same people that were built for college in the first place. They are the ones that are going to do all they can to achieve their goals.


When they give us our student loans, of which I have amassed a large amount of, they explicitly tell us when we will start paying them back, how much it will be if we pay on payments, and what to do if we can't come up with the money in time. We all agreed to that. Indentured servants? Please. College kids don't know everything, obviously, but that doesn't mean we're stupid. We aren't being tricked into this; we're willingly accepting it.


If a graduate simply got their degree, they didn't do everything they could to get the job. It's bigger than that. If they did do everything they could, and they continue working at it after college, they will eventually land a job. At that point, calling friends, family members with friends, anything can help just get an interview. I know one person at my school that has done most everything possible, and still can't catch a break. But even at my good school, he's the only person I know that is trying that hard and still not landing any hits. And I have full faith that he will eventually land a good job. From my experience of actually being a college student, the people who do everything possible to get a job and still don't land one make up less than 1% of the unemployed college graduates.


I have one exception. If there is a boom-bust phase in their market, that was all but unforeseeable, then the market can take more blame than the graduate. But that doesn't make them an indentured servant. It just makes them extremely unlucky, and it can happen to any market at any time. Lawyers had this happen to them recently. Luckily, they can still practice law and get their name out their and start their own service. The petroleum industry had this happen in the late 80's. It will always happen, but the strongest will always make it through.

Students decided to "buy" a "product" with college. Since their is no physical value to the product, there is no return policy. Makes sense to me. I can't buy Rosetta Stone, use it for 3 years, learn a new language, then return it if I can't speak fluently.

I do not believe students to be the new Helots.

The average federal student loan taken among students surveyed was $7,874 for 2011-2012; average private student loan borrowing totaled $8,096.

Through a combination of student and parent savings and loans, contributions from friends and relatives, and grants and scholarships, the average family spent $20,902 for the 2011-2012 school year, the study says.

Students may be spending more to make up for a decrease in school aid. Grants and scholarships still accounted for 29 percent of the average money spent for the 2011-2012 school year, but that's a 4 percent decrease from the year before. According to the study, the majority of that decrease likely comes from fewer college scholarships.

Students are also adapting by cutting costs and finding other funds, according to the study. Slightly more than half of the college students surveyed lived at home for the 2011-2012 school year, they reported, and half say they are working extra hours at side jobs.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: When they give us our student loans, of which I have amassed a large amount of, they explicitly tell us when we will start paying them back, how much it will be if we pay on payments, and what to do if we can't come up with the money in time. We all agreed to that. Indentured servants? Please. College kids don't know everything, obviously, but that doesn't mean we're stupid. We aren't being tricked into this; we're willingly accepting it.

Thats the way it here now, but we had a huge fiasco in the 90's over student loans. Under our "old" system (prior to about 1995) a student had 6 months to start paying back the loans, and if they hadnt gotten a job by then they could declare bankruptcy and the loans would be included. It was a built-in legal "saftey valve" and condition of the loan contract as everybody realized an education IS a gamble with no guarantee of a return on it. Then, the conservative government of the day decided to make it a 10-year exclusion for student loans in bankruptcy proceedings (which would have been OK with all new loans written from that day forward) BUT, they went and grandfathered in everybody--which was a major change in the terms of the agreement and screwed a LOT of people who would never have gone to school or taken the loans under the 10-year term.

What happened in the meantime, is the statute of limitations on federal collections became 7 years, so anything the feds haven't managed to collect after the 7 gets written off, but there is no limitation of provincial--they simply seize tax refunds, in some cases for the rest of a persons life--which again, is a gross violation of the terms the students originally signed up for. Up here, student loans are handled via regular banks but guaranteed by the government so the banks get paid no matter what happens)

I don't think it is anything like indentured servitude. These students are choosing to go to college and rack up massive debts. Many are saying that a lot aren't college material and that is correct, but it isn't the problem if they can't recognize that and buy into the idea that they MUST get an education. I don't know how many times I have heard people say "an education is the one thing they can't take away from you" or some variation. While that may be true, that knowledge isn't always marketable.

I'd like to see around here people's education levels compared to their salary ranges. I know you'd have to take into consideration where they live. I'd just like to see how many non-college blokes are doing just dandy.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: ..test our engineering and teamwork abilities

They actually manage to find teamwork abilities in engineers??? Wait, is it like the search for life on other planets? They just test and hope to someday find it?

Man, these are some strange times.



Brad (putting on flame suit in anticipation of engineer based backlash.)

quote Originally posted by newf: Gotta shift that debt somewhere. It's fine to say that many students are foolish for following their dreams but many have been sold the idea that as long as they study, work hard and reach for the stars they can accomplish anything. Now that times have changed (higher unemployment...etc.) there are also plenty of graduates with USEFULL degrees that can't find work in their field and have a hard time paying off their massive loans. Not to say that there aren't many who went to post secondary school knowing that their degree would be less marketable because there is pleny of that as well.

I totally argee . Many of us were lied to and suckered imto it.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: As long as the food is tasty, you have made a good choice. We do need pics so we can see how much weight you gain your first year of marriage. I gained 25 pounds. Now, back to the topic: I never took a student loan.

She's half-Filipino, and yes the food is tasty I've seen my two older brothers gain quite a bit since getting married. I hope to avoid their mistakes and maintain a level of moderation but I know it will be difficult. /offtopic

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Yes but when it was under false pretences?

Under any circumstance, if you burrow money, you should be required to pay it. Under false pretenses? Did they guarantee you a job? In writing? If so and they didn't uphold their end of the arrangement, than you the contract isn't fulfilled and you owe nothing.

A man is only as good as his word. I don't think that is all that bad of a creed to live by.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Yes but when it was under false pretences?

If you have a fraud case, you can sue.
What do you mean by "false pretences?" And by whom?

Just like any loan, if you were lied to in order to get you to take a loan you didn't want or need, there is a legal recourse.

Just my 2 cents. Most people will never work in the field they graduate from college with. Quite a few will be lucky to get better than a minimum wage job to start in anything. Ill take a bet a high percentage of people will never ever pay off their college debt. Some colleges cost more than some people make in their entire lifetime. A girl I know is going to a local art college and her tuition is over $30,000 a year. She wants to teach grapics arts. Teachers dont make that much money so if she spent 1/2 of her income (no one does that realisticly) to repay the debt, it will take her 15 years to pay it off. In real life payoff payments, it will be more like 25-30 years.

I used other means to get my degrees, and I have NO dept whatsoever (student loans).

Using the military benefits I have a B.S. and an MBA.

It can be done debt free, (scholarships) and such, one just has to know where to look, and do excellent work preparing for them.

I agree, there are other means like military and scholarships so you dont need to go in debt.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Under any circumstance, if you burrow money, you should be required to pay it. Under false pretenses? Did they guarantee you a job? In writing? If so and they didn't uphold their end of the arrangement, than you the contract isn't fulfilled and you owe nothing. A man is only as good as his word. I don't think that is all that bad of a creed to live by.

The school in question made several promises to get students but put none in writing so no legal recourse ( I checked into it )

quote Originally posted by User00013170: The school in question made several promises to get students but put none in writing so no legal recourse ( I checked into it )

What were some of these false promises?

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I think that if you take out a loan, you should be required to pay it regardless of whether you received any value from the money.

To me, that's the bottom line. If you're going to borrow something(anything), you have to hold up your end when it comes time for the "return."

quote Originally posted by Formula88: What were some of these false promises?

A couple of the highlights: ( paraphrased slightly. )

That they had a state of the art lab, far beyond anyone else in the state ( ya, i know, marketing but when it was clearly wrong .. )
They had actual people on staff from HR departments around the area and would place you in a position from your chosen career.. ( not assist with interviews, but actually place you )
When discussing loans, ' don't worry, after you can just consolidate and defer them so you pay a far less amount'
And when discussing the prices, ' well, our students always make several times the average .. ' In reality it was less...
And the worst 'yes all your credits will transfer to school xyz' ( which of course i got laughed at when i tried, as the plan was to get the initial degree there, go to work then transfer everything to a 'real' school then complete the extra liberal arts classes at the real school in the evenings and get their degree. I ended up making a deal with the 'real' school and tested out of 99% of the classes, at a reduced rate. They had heard this story before. )

Now, in hindsight decades later and older, it was pretty clear i was getting snowed, but i was 19... its not that hard to snow a kid.

Not going to mention any names. Some of their pitch have been changed since then as i went back and made a big stink. But... nothing was written down by the recruiter so i was just out of luck. Others in class also got the same 'pitch', especially the 'placement' story. But by the time we knew it was bogus we had years invested.

Due to all that and some personal mistakes i still have a loan to pay off all these years later and its immense.. And of course there is almost no way out of them, even after years of doing your part to pay them off as best you can.

EDIT: Sorry to be so long winded. The whole ordeal still pisses me off and I'm still living with the consequences of making that decision.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-18-2012).]

I honestly do not understand a lot of what is going on with student loans. But let me explain why I don't understand.

I paid entirely for my college degree higher education out of pocket. My parents are incredibly poor. I was the one that bought my own cars, bought all my own personal items, etc., the second I hit 18. Out of my immediate family on both sides - up to my second cousins - myself and one of my aunts are the only two that have obtained a BA or higher in college. During this whole time in school I did not take out any loans. Now in a little over half that time, I was also out on my own paying my own rent and bills and such - in addition to paying monthly tuition for school. It is indeed a difficult thing to do. There were instances where I worked THREE jobs and went to college. Yes, it is possible. For one semester, I worked 40 hours a week at my 'day' job, worked some nights busting tables, and worked Saturday and Sunday, all the while taking night classes (on odd days) and online courses.

It can be done. Is it hard? Hell yes it is. Friendships do strain, and even relationships can strain. However none of that matters. I made it through college fine, and because of that am in a much better position than 90% of my peers. I also do not have ANY student debt whatsoever, and believe it or not I actually managed to save enough money during that time to put a down payment on a house. I'm still in my 20s (albeit late 20s).

What I'm seeing a lot of in this day and age is a "change of guard" of sort. Many young people absolutely believe they must have college, and I for one believe EVERY young person should pursue higher education in a serious manner. And I don't mean trade school or that ridiculousness. I mean REAL college. However, what I think a lot of young people are failing to realize is that college is not going to guarantee you work. In fact, you may indeed have to work nuking burgers at McDonalds at some point. There's nothing wrong with that. What is a problem is that many young people are wanting to go to school, not wanting to work a lot - if at all - and then somehow still have bills paid for or go get a car they want or something like that.''

That is a serious problem.

I say these things because I keep seeing these problems with tuition and then see younger people around my age complain about jobs. Well one, if you actually worked while you were in school all the time, it would mostly be paid for. And two, you have to be able to lower your standards and be willing to take on absolutely ANY job you can find - even if it's washing dishes - to help out in ANY way possible.

Many of the problems with college tuition can be attributed to the individuals whom put themselves into those situations. I'm sorry but that is the absolute hard truth.

quote Originally posted by Fiero84Freak: I paid entirely for my college degree higher education out of pocket. .

i worked while going to school too. But it didn't pay it all. Without the 'paper' the income possibilities were low, and its nice to be able to eat and have a roof while going to class.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 07-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: They actually manage to find teamwork abilities in engineers??? Wait, is it like the search for life on other planets? They just test and hope to someday find it? Man, these are some strange times. Brad (putting on flame suit in anticipation of engineer based backlash.)

Oh they expect engineers to do and be everything now. Most positions I've looked at lately want engineer sales people, with excellent communications skills, outgoing extroverted personalities, excellent people and speaking skills, etc.

When I was in school at Michigan Tech a few years ago now, they told us we'd be having difficulty deciding which job offers to take. Starting salaries in the $45,000 - $60,000 range. People will always need engineers they said.

RECENT example of the engineering job market: I applied for a position called 'CAD librarian' which is just keeping track of, editing, and making some drawings in CAD for all the different departments in this company, although working roughly 50 hours a week, at all hours. I was fairly well qualified, having an engineering degree, years of experience with the software they used, and the interview went quite well. A person I know who works there told me, the person they ended up hiring for the position, is an Electrical Engineer, with 5 years experience. Working for $30,000 a year. With FIVE YEARS experience. I can hardly get anyone to talk to me with my no years experience.