Cars / Politics, I guess. Trying to move the discussion about foreign cars from this thread to it's own thread so we can expand on it and keep the original on topic.

Foreign vs Domestic isn't as clear as it once was.
What's more "American" - a Chevrolet made in Canada or Mexico, or a Honda made in Lincoln, AL?
There are plants in the U.S. that build Toyota, Honda, BMW, and other "foreign" cars.
The Pontiac G8 was made in Australia.
The F-Body Camaro/Firebird was made in Canada.

To me American means an American company, Ford, GM, Chrysler. Even that isn't as clear cut since Chrysler/Fiat happened.

I guess it has more to do with where a company is... Headquartered? Meaning, if the company is headquartered in the USA, like Ford, then the profit from the sales goes to a US company, where as a Toyota assembled and sold here will have the profit from it's sale go to Japan. In todays world, there probably isn't any car made completely of one countries parts in that country. So it's mostly where the Company "is" that defines it? To try to say "Buy Ford/GM/Chrysler, because they are American made" to me is a misnomer. They are "American Owned" but alot of the parts in them are not "American Made", and they may not even be assembled in America.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 08-21-2011).]

To me, and American car would be one made by an American company, AND built in the US, AND made of mostly American-made parts. I don't think we make American cars anymore.

And, there's a 'reason' people keep getting that "Still have a job?" type comment. But, it's often a misplaced question, as the reason so few have jobs is a deep seated and long running shift in global demographics and thus, economics-- and it is also--- Short of a disasterous upheaval on the same or larger global scale---irreversible.

Those who claim nothing is still built here or there and that there are no longer any US products, often do so in order to rationalize their purchasing habits, past and present. To say that Ford--GM--Motorola--Kennmore et all are no longer American brand products is of course false, just as it would be false to say that computer or tech products made overseas by overseas companies are not foriegn just because they may be based on a US OS or other software or even have US hardware inside them. As has been stated above, "Most" of the time, the profits of a corp go back to the corporate hdqtrs of that country of registration or origin. Those, are figured in as part of that parent nation's GDP. and the GDP has all SORTS of ramifications once it is figured up.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 08-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Foreign vs Domestic isn't as clear as it once was. To me American means an American company, Ford, GM, Chrysler. Even that isn't as clear cut since Chrysler/Fiat happened.

....or Daimler/Chrysler before that.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Cars / Politics, I guess. Trying to move the discussion about foreign cars from this thread to it's own thread so we can expand on it and keep the original on topic. Foreign vs Domestic isn't as clear as it once was. What's more "American" - a Chevrolet made in Canada or Mexico, or a Honda made in Lincoln, AL? There are plants in the U.S. that build Toyota, Honda, BMW, and other "foreign" cars. The Pontiac G8 was made in Australia. The F-Body Camaro/Firebird was made in Canada. To me American means an American company, Ford, GM, Chrysler. Even that isn't as clear cut since Chrysler/Fiat happened.

Heh. I saw a bumper sticker today saying something to the effect of "want your jobs back? Buy an american car!"

I don't remember what kind of car it was on, but I laughed because it probably wasn't made in the US.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: And, there's a 'reason' people keep getting that "Still have a job?" type comment. But, it's often a misplaced question, as the reason so few have jobs is a deep seated and long running shift in global demographics and thus, economics-- and it is also--- Short of a disasterous upheaval on the same or larger global scale---irreversible. Those who claim nothing is still built here or there and that there are no longer any US products, often do so in order to rationalize their purchasing habits, past and present. To say that Ford--GM--Motorola--Kennmore et all are no longer American brand products is of course false, just as it would be false to say that computer or tech products made overseas by overseas companies are not foriegn just because they may be based on a US OS or other software or even have US hardware inside them. As has been stated above, "Most" of the time, the profits of a corp go back to the corporate hdqtrs of that country of registration or origin. Those, are figured in as part of that parent nation's GDP. and the GDP has all SORTS of ramifications once it is figured up.

Don,

You know I love ya like a brother, and respect you too.

I work in the auto industry. I work for a Tier 2 supplier. I'll tell you right now that there are no lines that define an "American" car versus an "Import". Much of the engineering know-how in Detroit is imported from Canada (remember that Tom Lasorda and Frank Ewasyshyn, the former CEO and EVP of Manufacturing for DaimlyerChrysler are both University of Windsor grads). So if a car is designed in the US, by a Canadian...is it an "American" car? How about a car designed by Americans for an "Asian" manufacturer. (Tell me who the largest employer is in the Marysvale Ohio area.) How about an "Asian" car that has seats built by Faurecia in Detroit, or their subsidiary NHK in Japan.

The auto industry is as international as it gets, and every manufacturer that sells in the US, employs in the US. Anyone who thinks that buying one car over another keeps jobs in the US is fooling themselves. The proceeds of the sale of vehicles goes to the workers that designed and built them. Yes, the shareholders may be in Japan, but I guarantee you that if they are selling their vehicles in the 'states, they are investing there. Think about this, if you were gaining market share in a certain market, would you not want to spend more money there to sell more of your product? I thought so.

The "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign." stickers are a farce, perpetuated by union leaders trying to keep their fragile grasp on power over the mindless underthings.

The cars.com definition of American made are as good as any:

quote Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts come from and whether the car is assembled in the U.S. We disqualify models with a domestic parts content rating below 75 percent, models built exclusively outside the U.S. or models soon to be discontinued without a U.S.-built successor.

So a car is American made if it is assembled in the U.S. and has a domestic content of 75% or more.

Their top-ten list is an eye opener.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: What's more "American" - a Chevrolet made in Canada or Mexico, or a Honda made in Lincoln, AL?

Why is this question always phrased "a Chevrolet made in Mexico". Why not "a Chevrolet made in Ohio" (like my current one was) or "a Chevrolet made in Kansas" (like my next one likely will be)? Sure I could buy an Avalanche or HHR made in Mexico.... Or a Malibu made in Fairfax KS.

Whats a foriegn car? The Camaro in my driveway.

Whats a domestic car? The Honda Accord in my neighbors driveway.

quote Originally posted by css9450: Keep in mind that their formula includes SALES as a sort of multiplier which is kind of misleading. The Camry is #1 on that list not because of its high domestic content (other cars like my Cobalt are higher) but the Camry trumps all others on account of its enormous sales figures. In other words, a car might have 99% domestic content but if it sells poorly it'll never be #1; whereas a car might have 50% domestic content but it MIGHT be #1 if it sells about eleventy-million each year. Its fuzzy math. Sure, some may say that the car that sells eleventy-million each year pumps more money into the local economy, but on the other hand, I'm buying just ONE car, not eleventy-million.

I agree that the sales figures bias position on the top ten list but to be on the list the car must be made from at least 75% domestic parts. So a car with 50% content could never be on the list no matter how high the sales numbers.

An older list I found showed several Ford models with over 90% domestic content. One model with that high domestic content was assembled in Canada (Crown Vic) so it also did not meet the Ämerican made" definition of cars.com.

quote Originally posted by css9450: Why is this question always phrased "a Chevrolet made in Mexico". Why not "a Chevrolet made in Ohio" (like my current one was) or "a Chevrolet made in Kansas" (like my next one likely will be)? Sure I could buy an Avalanche or HHR made in Mexico.... Or a Malibu made in Fairfax KS.

Because a Chevrolet made in Ohio is pretty plainly an American car. It's also why I didn't ask which was more American, a Chevrolet made in Ohio or a Honda made in Japan.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Because a Chevrolet made in Ohio is pretty plainly an American car. It's also why I didn't ask which was more American, a Chevrolet made in Ohio or a Honda made in Japan.

Correct; unfortunately I was just using your post as an example, because its been phrased so many ways in the past: "What's more American, a Ford Fusion made in Mexico or a Camry made in Kentucky" for example. (Its usually asked by TV wags who know nothing about the car industry in the first place) They NEVER ask about, say, a Ford made in Michigan, Georgia, Illinois or wherever. People seeing this stuff on TV are left with the impression that ALL U.S. cars are made in Mexico.

If a car is made mostly with American made parts in a domestic plant, I would consider it domestic even if some profit returns to a foreign based company or investor. With domestic parts and assembly, it is having a large domestic economic impact.

quote Originally posted by spark1: The cars.com definition of American made are as good as any: So a car is American made if it is assembled in the U.S. and has a domestic content of 75% or more. Their top-ten list is an eye opener.

The list mentioned the Toyota works in Lafayette, In.

Subaru also has a massive assembly plant located there, a major employer in that community.

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: If a car is made mostly with American made parts in a domestic plant, I would consider it domestic even if some profit returns to a foreign based company or investor. With domestic parts and assembly, it is having a large domestic economic impact.

And that brings up the next part of the question.
You buy a Honda made in the US and most of the money goes back to Japan.
You buy a Chevrolet made in Canada and most of the money goes to the US.

But, if your goal is to help the economy and jobs, buying the US made Honda supports US workers at the Honda plant. Buying the Canadian built Chevy doesn't. Then there's whether or not buying the US made Honda contributes to the outsourcing of more US jobs, or does it create US jobs?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And that brings up the next part of the question. You buy a Honda made in the US and most of the money goes back to Japan. You buy a Chevrolet made in Canada and most of the money goes to the US. But, if your goal is to help the economy and jobs, buying the US made Honda supports US workers at the Honda plant. Buying the Canadian built Chevy doesn't. Then there's whether or not buying the US made Honda contributes to the outsourcing of more US jobs, or does it create US jobs?

Another thought is those dollars sent to Canada often return to the USA in trade. What does Japan buy from us?

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Another thought is those dollars sent to Canada often return to the USA in trade. What does Japan buy from us?

Boeings?

edit: Also apparently many GE nuclear reactors like those at Fukushima.

Plus lumber, blueberries and Intel chips.

quote Japan is Oregon's single largest agricultural partner. Each year Oregon farmers export their wheat, cherries, potatoes and vegetables to the tune of about $1 billion.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 08-22-2011).]

To me its the money trail. Who gets the profit ? If its a Japanese guy in Tokyo, its foreign. If its a American guy in Toledo, its American. Going by the parts, every car is now a 'world car'. Foreign or Domestic now becomes just a name for the market its directed to...and even that is getting muddier.

Here a list of company car models with less than 10% U.S./Canadian parts content:

Volkswagen/Audi--23
Toyota----22
Volvo--16
Nissan--13
Porche--13
Hyundai/KIA--12
BMW--9
Mazda--8
Mitsubishi--5
Honda--4
Land Rover--3
Saab--2
Subaru--2
Ford--2------ Fiesta & Transit Connect
GM--1 -------Aveo to be replace by the Sonic made in Michigan
Chrysler--0

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&...g+Act+(AALA)+Reports

Cited here.

Corrected to show that U.S. and Canadian parts and manufaturing locations are combined in the report.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 08-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And that brings up the next part of the question. You buy a Honda made in the US and most of the money goes back to Japan. You buy a Chevrolet made in Canada and most of the money goes to the US. But, if your goal is to help the economy and jobs, buying the US made Honda supports US workers at the Honda plant. Buying the Canadian built Chevy doesn't. Then there's whether or not buying the US made Honda contributes to the outsourcing of more US jobs, or does it create US jobs?

Good points. I guess part of the answer would have to depend on where that money really goes (other than back to one place or another).

That said, a breakdown of the manufacturing costs of new cars would show that the largest single cost in a new car is the manufacturing and overhead costs (about 50%). So where the car is made has a big impact on how much money stays in the US, or goes overseas. This is also money creating jobs, since the cars and parts factories are employing Americans (or foreigners).

Of the other 50%, 17.5%-22.5% goes towards dealer markups and incentives, so this is typically money that remains in the US since it is in the dealer network, and also creates jobs at the dealer level. That leaves 27.5% of the cost of a new car... which is split between R&D, corporate overhead, net profit, pension and health obligations, advertising, etc. This money gets split around. For a foreign based company, a good percentage goes overseas, but not all (money spent on health and pension obligations for US based employees, US advertising, US based R&D such as in California design studioes, etc, still gets spent here).

As I see it, the place of manufacture is highly influential on where the money goes. The US made Honda Accord is keeping most of the money in the US, where as the Mexican built Ford Fiesta is shipping a higher percentage overseas.

Of course, the car which will keep the most money in the US is a domestic manufacturer's car which is domestically built.

yup - many are not as clear as they use to be

maybe this is an item to be added to the "window sticker"?

That would be cool. Right under advertised gas mileage have a chart showing what parts are manufactured where along with a percentage number of parts made outside of the US. I know my Magnum Manual said the Hemi engine was produced in Mexico and chassis parts in Germany (Mercedes).

Just for a point of fun, I once had a Honda owner tell me he wanted genuine parts, not cheap Japanese ones....LOL.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: That would be cool. Right under advertised gas mileage have a chart showing what parts are manufactured where along with a percentage number of parts made outside of the US. I know my Magnum Manual said the Hemi engine was produced in Mexico and chassis parts in Germany (Mercedes). Just for a point of fun, I once had a Honda owner tell me he wanted genuine parts, not cheap Japanese ones....LOL.

The labeling requirement is already law:

quote Part 583 American Automobile Labeling Act (AALA) Reports LISTINGS OF PASSENGER MOTOR VEHICLES THAT ARE LABELED WITH THEIR U.S./CANADIAN PARTS CONTENT NHTSA has provided these reports as an aid to consumers considering the purchase of a new vehicle. The charts list information that NHTSA received from vehicle manufacturers about the U.S./Canadian content (by value) of the equipment (parts) used to assemble passenger motor vehicles. The American Automobile Labeling Act (AALA) defines a passenger motor vehicle as a motor vehicle designed to carry not more than 12 persons with a gross vehicle weight rating not greater than 8,500 pounds and includes multipurpose passenger vehicles and light duty trucks. It does not include a motorcycle or a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers, i.e., a delivery truck. A label with the U.S./Canada content percentage and related additional information must be displayed on these vehicles up to the time of first retail sale.

Where do they post it, Ive never seen that kind of label on a car.........maybe printed only on the original window sticker ? Even if its as described it needs to be expanded to include lots more info.

I have seen the label on the window sticker of cars. At least in the past.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Where do they post it, Ive never seen that kind of label on a car.........maybe printed only on the original window sticker ? Even if its as described it needs to be expanded to include lots more info.

Here's how the law reads:

quote Parts Content Information For vehicles in this carline: U.S./Canadian Parts Content: (insert number) % Major Sources of Foreign Parts Content: (Name of country with highest percentage): (insert number) % (Name of country with second highest percentage): (insert number) % Note: Parts content does not include final assembly, distribution, or other non-parts costs. For this vehicle: Final Assembly Point: (city, state, country) Country of Origin: Engine: (name of country) Transmission: (name of country) (c) The percentages required to be provided under paragraph (a) of this section may be rounded by the manufacturer to the nearest 5 percent. (d) The label required by paragraph (a) of this section shall: (1) Be placed in a prominent location on each vehicle where it can be read from the exterior of the vehicle with the doors closed, and may be either part of the Monroney price information label required by 15 U.S.C. 1232, part of the fuel economy label required by 15 U.S.C. 2006, or a separate label. A separate label may include other consumer information. (2)(i) Be printed in letters that have a color that contrasts with the background of the label; and (ii) Have the information required by paragraphs (a)(1) through (5) of this section vertically centered on the label in boldface capital letters and numerals of 12 point size or larger; and (iii) Have the information required by paragraph (a)(6) of this section in type that is two points smaller than the information required by paragraphs (a)(1) through (5) of this section. (3) In the case of a label that is included as part of the Monroney price information label or fuel economy label, or a separate label that includes other consumer information, be separated from all other information on those labels by a solid line that is a minimum of three points in width. (4) The information required by paragraphs (a)(1) through (6) of this section shall be immediately preceded by the words, “PARTS CONTENT INFORMATION,” in boldface, capital letters that are 12 point size or larger.

An evaluation of the labling requirement found that:

quote Over 75 percent of consumer survey participants, even those that care deeply about "buying American," were unaware of the existence of the AALA labels. Many participants who did read the label said they used the country-of-assembly information, but none said they used the numerical U.S./Canadian parts content score or the engine/transmission information.

So the label doesn't have much effect on purchasing decisions.