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Curiosity: did God create the universe with Stephen Hawking by NickD3.4
Started on: 08-08-2011 04:16 PM
Replies: 111
Last post by: uhlanstan on 08-17-2011 03:47 PM
NickD3.4
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
wow...what a waste of my time. For a "genius" he made some really narrow statements lacking in substance. "Since time began with the big bang, and time did not exist before the big bang, therefore was no time for god to have existed".

This whole statement is based on an assumption there was nothing before a speculative event that still has not been proven. Also, time is man made, and has no physical presence in the laws of nature, so how can one make the claim it did not "exist"? technically speaking, time never has.

You can say science shows no evidence for creation, but I disagree. The fact we can visually observe our world, the beginning of life, and expanding cosmos are evidence of creation. Whether or not you want to attribute that "creation" to a higher power is up to you. What I find interesting is how so many scientist married to their atheism fail to see the hypocrisy in their positions. They say science is not based on faith but yet they put complete faith into unproven theories and repeat them as fact. The whole notion of science providing an explanation for everything has become a religion to many. It reminds me of the IPCC and their garbage science behind global warming.

For a scientist to claim God does not exist because the laws of physics are "set" is arrogant and short sighted statement. Hawking states "the laws of physics are set, so what purpose would there be for god"?

The laws of society are set, what purpose is there for a judicial system or judge? So apparently God's only purpose to exists is to make the apple fall from the tree? Now...because of Newtons laws of physics, and they are set, God has not purpose? This is assuming that God sat around enforcing the laws of physics.

They also state that "the amount of positive energy in the universe is the same as the negative energy, therefore putting the universe at "zero". If the universe is at "zero", then therefore there was nothing for God to create."

Again, this is narrow minded spin of science. Hawkings actually tries to argue that because the two energies are mathematically matched, then therefore there is nothing for God to have created. This is where I think being confined to his chair and computer has driven him insane. despite the fact we can feel, see, and touch world around us, he somehow wants to use a math equation of balanced energies to argue there is no God because they counter balance one another. This is argument ridiculous. If I build and create a scale where the two weights cancel each other out at "zero", does this mean I did not create the scale? Does it mean I did not balance the wight to be matched?......NOPE.

Hawkings actually makes the claim that the universe came from "nothing" based on the idea that the positive energy is matched by negative energy. He uses digging a hole as an example. He says a man digging a hole is creating a hill with the dirt he pulls from the ground. While the hill gets bigger, so does the hole. The size of the hole matches the size of the hill, therefore cancelling each other out. He uses this to explain how the universe came from nothing and equals zero.

one problem....what about the dirt? Was the hill the man created made of nothing? no. It was made of dirt which is mass. The mass was pulled from the ground, leaving a hole in its place. The matter of the universe if like the dirt. There may be positive energy (the hill) matched by negative energy (the hole), but he completely ignores the fact of the material itself. You cant argue that the universe came from nothing because Mass and matter is a physical property, even space has matter containing mass. What about the matter? The only real explanation would be to accept the fact that matter and mass always were and has been. There was no "creation or beginning of time" as Hawkings puts it, because A. that would mean matter and mass came from nothing, and B. time did not start because it always has been. Measurement of time is a creation of man.

Hawkings says "There is no need of God, since God is not necessary to create the universe." That's a pretty bold statement. So..because one feels they have the answer to how something may work or could have been created proves that God is not necessary or exists? If you can explain to me how am internal engine work, does this prove it was not created by an engineer?

Better yet....I can show you that vitamin D is created naturally from the sun hitting your skin and being converted. Does this mean that man made UV lights and sun tanning salons do not exist because they are "not necessary" for the creation of vitamin D? Vitamin D supplements must not exist either, after all why create Vitamin D supplements when there is an explained natural process?

Some can argue that failing to embrace these scientific theories are ignorant, but I would kindly return the favor stating that the failure to see beyond man's arrogance while failing to see their hypocrisy is just as ignorant.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Obviously Nick--you aren't among the """""""""""Enlightened"""""""""".

Sarcasm off.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 8-PSend a Private Message to 8-PDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Obviously Nick--you aren't among the """""""""""Enlightened"""""""""".



I think you meant to say "rational".
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwSend a Private Message to KhwDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 8-P:


I think you meant to say "rational".


No, I'm pretty sure he said what he meant.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 8-P:


I think you meant to say "rational".


Is this where I'm supposed to blow a gasket, throw a real hissy fit, and go off the deep end about what I said versus what you might think I meant to say??

If so---sorry to disappoint.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick's DadClick Here to visit Patrick's Dad's HomePageSend a Private Message to Patrick's DadDirect Link to This Post
Why would God need Stephen Hawking to create a universe?
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


Is this where I'm supposed to blow a gasket, throw a real hissy fit, and go off the deep end about what I said versus what you might think I meant to say??

If so---sorry to disappoint.

LOL!
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post

NickD3.4

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quote
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad:

Why would God need Stephen Hawking to create a universe?


that's funny
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Report this Post08-08-2011 04:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanDirect Link to This Post
..If ever there was a crippled drooling elitist moron its hawkings
does god hate the crippled??
Hawkings has no clue how science works ,EXCEPT HIS SPECIALTY
his wife fixed him ,carefull guys
he do know dat math,
Is there wheel chair access in hell??
he will be sucked into a black hole & the devil will use the thorned strap on

THE FOOL HAS SAID IN HIS HEART. THERE IS NO GOD
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NickD3.4
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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
Bio-chemist who mathematically match our genomes and DNA will tell you its mathematically impossible for us to have happened by chance. They equate it to walking into a Casino and hitting the jackpot on 250+ slot machines in a row.

Also, Hawkings has some short coming when he states "There is no need of God, since God is not necessary to create the universe."

Why because he says it's not necessary? He is placing arbitrary rules in place, as if to say the only way God would exist is if there were a need. Who's law is that?....his? What if God always existed, there was no beginning, no end, just was. I doubt many can even rap their brain around such a thing. Why does a planet suspend in a mass of nothingness? When you open up this box, you hit areas that are so far out of the realm, it's impossible for us to even scratch the surface. I cant help but laugh at such thinking. It reminds me of when they taught the atom was the smallest thing known. then oops, they split one open.

Like I said, ...I can show you that vitamin D is created naturally from the sun hitting your skin and being converted. Does this mean that man made UV lights and sun tanning salons do not exist because they are "not necessary" for the creation of vitamin D? Vitamin D supplements must not exist either, after all why create Vitamin D supplements when there is an explained natural process?

Science loves to point out the dogma of religion through out history while at the same time ignoring the dogma among themselves.

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 08-08-2011).]

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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
So should anyone who disagrees in this thread even bother posting, or would they even have a chance to talk without being called names?

I'm just asking, I think it would make a good debate, but only if people are willing to debate, and not argue.


Brad
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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:

wow...what a waste of my time. For a "genius" he made some really narrow statements lacking in substance. "Since time began with the big bang, and time did not exist before the big bang, therefore was no time for god to have existed".

This whole statement is based on an assumption there was nothing before a speculative event that still has not been proven. Also, time is man made, and has no physical presence in the laws of nature, so how can one make the claim it did not "exist"? technically speaking, time never has.

.


And the existence of god isn't an assumption based on narrow statements lacking in substance? There are boundaries in our understanding that can never be crossed without simple 'i believe it worked this way'. His is no less, or more, valid than lets say the pope.

While I'm not equipped to debate it, time isn't a man made construct, if you believe physics. While its not a tangible 'thing' it does exist .
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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post

Nurb432

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quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

THERE IS NO GOD


Who's god? Yours, the guy sitting across the hall, the Buddhist friend of mine, or how about an ancient Greek who felt there were numerous gods? All beliefs have the same merit and NO ONE knows the truth. They think they do, but they cant actually know.

[This message has been edited by Nurb432 (edited 08-08-2011).]

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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rinselbergClick Here to visit rinselberg's HomePageSend a Private Message to rinselbergDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:
Bio-chemist who mathematically match our genomes and DNA will tell you its mathematically impossible for us to have happened by chance. They equate it to walking into a Casino and hitting the jackpot on 250+ slot machines in a row.

We didn't happen by chance. It was by Darwinian evolution. (So I believe.) And that started even before there was life, as we define it. Primitive chemical systems were evolving into more sophisticated chemical systems before evolving into the first bacterial-level life. Google "Freeman Dyson" and "RNA" and "metabolism first". There was probably RNA-based life before it evolved into DNA-based life. RNA molecules are not as complex as DNA molecules.

I don't think that the existence of life in general--or the human species--is a strong argument for God.

But if you ask me to explain how the universe itself came into being--well, unlike Hawkiing--I am "stuck". The physicists talk about the Big Bang, inflation, strings and branes, multiverses and "bubbles"--but it seems that whatever they posit, only raises yet more questions.

I guess that this line of thought makes me an agnostic, more than an atheist.

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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:


Who's god? Yours, the guy sitting across the hall, the Buddhist friend of mine, or how about an ancient Greek who felt there were numerous gods? All beliefs have the same merit and NO ONE knows the truth. They think they do, but they cant actually know.



Boom! Best post here. There is no smoking gun proof currently... all we have is best guesses, gut feelings, and faith.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:


And the existence of god isn't an assumption based on narrow statements lacking in substance? There are boundaries in our understanding that can never be crossed without simple 'i believe it worked this way'. His is no less, or more, valid than lets say the pope.

While I'm not equipped to debate it, time isn't a man made construct, if you believe physics. While its not a tangible 'thing' it does exist .

perhaps your not getting my point.


The evidence of God is just as strong as any evidence presented there is no God. Its Subjective to the person theorizing. For some scientist, Science removes any faith in a deity, while with others, their beliefs in God becomes stronger with every discovery.

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 08-08-2011).]

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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanDirect Link to This Post
LOOK at what is happening right NOW in Israel & the world all comming to ??
is it a giant funnel??
the Jews are crazy right now.
many moronic liberals listen to hawking(back subject)
the man believes aliens are space nomads come for conquest,REALLY
HE CAN NOT WIPE HIS OWN BUTT,cripple steve has also a major computer malfunction it seems
HAVE YOU LISTEN TO HIM?
I THINK SATAN SPEAKS THRU HIS VOICE SYNTHESIZER
SATAN will certainly sodomize steven,pull him thru the black hole,inside out,then
break out the thorn weed tally wacker!! real deal kinky strap on action
Steve recently fell out of his wheel chair & photo shop "photos" of him in his Flaming wheel chair were hilarious,he is an easy cripple to hate ..
Hawking has as much authority to speak on religion as i use to have when I performed minor surgery on biker chicks,former contract soldier & corpsman David Eells would close.
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NickD3.4
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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

LOOK at what is happening right NOW in Israel & the world all comming to ??
is it a giant funnel??
the Jews are crazy right now.
many moronic liberals listen to hawking(back subject)
the man believes aliens are space nomads come for conquest,REALLY
HE CAN NOT WIPE HIS OWN BUTT,cripple steve has also a major computer malfunction it seems
HAVE YOU LISTEN TO HIM?
I THINK SATAN SPEAKS THRU HIS VOICE SYNTHESIZER
SATAN will certainly sodomize steven,pull him thru the black hole,inside out,then
break out the thorn weed tally wacker!! real deal kinky strap on action
Steve recently fell out of his wheel chair & photo shop "photos" of him in his Flaming wheel chair were hilarious,he is an easy cripple to hate ..
Hawking has as much authority to speak on religion as i use to have when I performed minor surgery on biker chicks,former contract soldier & corpsman David Eells would close.


I about spit my drink all over the screen. Where do you come up with this stuff? LOL
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Report this Post08-08-2011 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:

perhaps your not getting my point.


The evidence of God is just as strong as any evidence presented there is no God. Its Subjective to the person theorizing. For some scientist, Science removes any faith in a deity, while with others, their beliefs in God becomes stronger with every discovery.



Soooo, there is no evidence either way then?

Brad
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Report this Post08-08-2011 06:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TommyRockerSend a Private Message to TommyRockerDirect Link to This Post
I don't believe the Bible to be the word of God and so on. It was written and edited by men and its numerous inconsistencies are, in fact, consistent with multiple authors writing separately with somewhat similar ideas in mind. However, if his "logic" was as you state, he doesn't have it very well sorted. I take the same issue with many atheists that they take with Christians; they make a lot of faith based assumptions and leave no room for someone else to be right. It seems many atheists have turned Atheism into a religion and they guard it just as zealously as any Christian or Muslim ever did.

As for me, I don't believe the Bible is a factual account of the history of the world, nor do I believe that we came from nothing through shear chance. I am perfectly happy to admit that I don't know where we came from and that you all may be right; I simply see flaws in your logic or assumptions that I am not comfortable accepting.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by twofatguys:


Soooo, there is no evidence either way then?

Brad

I believe there is evidence for God, however like I said, its all subjective to the person reviewing the information. In my opinion, I see evidence everywhere. Just read my original post.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 06:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:

I believe there is evidence for God, however like I said, its all subjective to the person reviewing the information. In my opinion, I see evidence everywhere. Just read my original post.


I got the first post, I was just commenting on the part where you said that the evidence that there is a God is the same as the evidence that there is not a God. In my head that would be someone saying that there is not a God. That was all. I thought it was a strange way to put it.

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Report this Post08-08-2011 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TKSend a Private Message to TKDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:

Bio-chemist who mathematically match our genomes and DNA will tell you its mathematically impossible for us to have happened by chance. They equate it to walking into a Casino and hitting the jackpot on 250+ slot machines in a row.



First, It's not mathematically impossible. It might be long odds for sure. If you stack up all of the events that needed to happen, sure, it might be a long shot but it's still a shot. Or the mechanism could be rather simple if we knew enough details about the early earth to get the kick-start organic compounds. That is the precursor. His statement (if it's real) doesn't even address the tons of failed paths. We see many organisms that just ended. Dead ends. But that means it was happening multiple times.

Second, the odds of shuffling a random sequence of playing cards into order is extremely high (enough zeros to tire out the hand) but it will likely happen once in that number of tries. What's ignored is that the "odds" don't preclude it happening on the first try. If you did it on the first try, it would just mean the next successful shuffle might be a long time away. But you might just pull it off twice in row too. The statistics don't tell you when it will happen. It could be the first time or the last time or any time in between.

Third, using the 'against all odds' argument ignores the fact that you are throwing out the failed attempts that came before. Many of those failed attempts might have gone a long distance before petering out as I said above. You might find you can't even do it in the first bazillion tries.

Fourth, there was an awfully long time for this to happen. We aren't talking about 20 minutes in a lab or 1000 years of failure, but MILLIONS of years. Big M, littlel i ...

Finally, that is the whole point of how amazing it is. Once we weren't afraid to look at our beginnings it turned out to be more amazing that anything anyone could have imagined. Let it be amazing. It's ok. We'll keep looking at it. The downside is we might very well be alone - it could be THAT rare.

You never know, we might run into a "creator" as being the only solution to a problem but there is no reason to jump to that after only 400 years of study. Sorry folks, wrap it up. You've have plenty of time. Something that took 3 billions years to achieve can't be understood in 400 years (all the while having people threaten to kill you for even looking.) You want brave? That's brave.

Statistical odds don't drive reality. They only provide a framework of the expected effort. We need to use them correctly. I don't mind alternative theories but let's not get too absurd here.A little absurdity goes a long way.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-08-2011).]

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Report this Post08-08-2011 06:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


Is this where I'm supposed to blow a gasket, throw a real hissy fit, and go off the deep end about what I said versus what you might think I meant to say??

If so---sorry to disappoint.


No, that's not your style.
Your style is being on the other end of telling people what they are really saying.
Oh, wait, that's only ME you do that to.

Nice one, though.

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Report this Post08-08-2011 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for InTheLeadSend a Private Message to InTheLeadDirect Link to This Post
I never cared what that bitter person thought..

There is zero doubt in my mind that 'timeless' factors into everything we do not understand.

Big bang should be relabled big joke..
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Report this Post08-08-2011 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:

perhaps your not getting my point.


The evidence of God is just as strong as any evidence presented there is no God. Its Subjective to the person theorizing. For some scientist, Science removes any faith in a deity, while with others, their beliefs in God becomes stronger with every discovery.



Yes i got the point, I just said it a different way
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Report this Post08-08-2011 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post

Nurb432

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quote
Originally posted by InTheLead:

I never cared what that bitter person thought..

There is zero doubt in my mind that 'timeless' factors into everything we do not understand.

Big bang should be relabled big joke..


its no more or less a joke than the god concept. Nor by definition mutually exclusive of each other.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeDirect Link to This Post
When the Universe was created, certain rules had to be set, to govern its operation. I'm referring to things like the Universal Gravitational Constant, the Inverse Square Law, the number Pi, the laws of motion and thermodynamics, etc etc.

Who or what wrote these laws? Was it a single being, a committee, or something less tangible? Maybe the Universe itself worked this out, in the first nanoseconds of its existence?

I don't know, and won't presume to know.

But whomever or whatever set those laws is what I call God. And that's good enough for me.
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Report this Post08-08-2011 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TommyRocker:

I don't believe the Bible to be the word of God and so on. It was written and edited by men and its numerous inconsistencies are, in fact, consistent with multiple authors writing separately with somewhat similar ideas in mind. However, if his "logic" was as you state, he doesn't have it very well sorted. I take the same issue with many atheists that they take with Christians; they make a lot of faith based assumptions and leave no room for someone else to be right. It seems many atheists have turned Atheism into a religion and they guard it just as zealously as any Christian or Muslim ever did.

As for me, I don't believe the Bible is a factual account of the history of the world, nor do I believe that we came from nothing through shear chance. I am perfectly happy to admit that I don't know where we came from and that you all may be right; I simply see flaws in your logic or assumptions that I am not comfortable accepting.



Good post.

I am able to believe that there was a "creator" of some kind, something we cannot yet (or may never) fully understand. My problems are often when people start telling others that they are wrong because they believe something different.
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Patrick's Dad
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Report this Post08-08-2011 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick's DadClick Here to visit Patrick's Dad's HomePageSend a Private Message to Patrick's DadDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:
Good post.

I am able to believe that there was a "creator" of some kind, something we cannot yet (or may never) fully understand. My problems are often when people start telling others that they are wrong because they believe something different.


A good start, and I genuinely laud you for this.

I believe that the Creator has left a bunch of clues for us to find. He wants to be known. Unlike Deists, I don't believe that He created everything only to sit back and watch what happens. I believe that He is personal, and, therefore, has left them means by which those parts of Him He wishes known can be known.

My exploration has led down a specific path, and I am happy to talk about that path, if you would like.
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quote
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad:


A good start, and I genuinely laud you for this.

I believe that the Creator has left a bunch of clues for us to find. He wants to be known. Unlike Deists, I don't believe that He created everything only to sit back and watch what happens. I believe that He is personal, and, therefore, has left them means by which those parts of Him He wishes known can be known.

My exploration has led down a specific path, and I am happy to talk about that path, if you would like.


I respect your personal views, even if I question or disagree at times I am happy you have found your path.

You are more than welcome to share your personal journey with the forum if you wish. I enjoy hearing what reasons and why people believe what they do.
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quote
Originally posted by twofatguys:


I got the first post, I was just commenting on the part where you said that the evidence that there is a God is the same as the evidence that there is not a God. In my head that would be someone saying that there is not a God. That was all. I thought it was a strange way to put it.

Brad

I see what you mean. I meant that what many claim as "proof" of no God can easily go both ways.
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I kind of feel bad for Stephen Hawking. There's no shame in wanting to make a name for yourself. He certainly has a brilliant mind, and there's certainly no doubt about that... but he has lacked a lot of real substance for many of his theories. His whole black-hole theory that he spent nearly... what, 20 years trying to convince people was true... only ended up being wrong, again, supposedly... after he announced that he had been wrong.

The man desperately wants to make a name for himself, and he wants to keep himself in the spotlight to keep his funding and financing flowing. There is nothing that he has that would prove for or against the existence of God, so the fact that he's even trying to make a stink about it is kind of silly. Really, he has no proof that God didn't create the big bang, or that time even began WITH the big bang.

Oh well, not sure why I'm even wasting my time. The man can have his views, but I question the timing of this as more having to do with the fact that he has seriously fallen from prominence over the past couple of years.

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http://www.christiannewswir...news/2977814861.html

Stephen Hawking Breaks Atheist Rules

Contact: Trisha Ramos, livingwaters.com, 800-437-1893

MEDIA ADVISORY, Sept. 2 /Christian Newswire/ -- According to professor Stephen Hawking, God didn't create the universe. Instead, nothing created everything. However, according to the author of the book, Nothing Created Everything -- the scientific impossibility of atheistic evolution, Stephen Hawking has violated the basic laws of science. Ray Comfort created an international storm of angry protest from the atheist community in 2009, when he gave away 170,000 copies of Charles Darwin's On Origin of Species to 170,000 students at 100 of the top universities in the United States, as well as universities in England, Australia and New Zealand. The book contained a 50-page Foreword, in which Comfort gave the case for creationism.

An extract of Hawking's latest book, The Grand Design, was published in Eureka magazine in The Times, in which the professor said: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist." Comfort, said, "It is embarrassingly unscientific to speak of anything creating itself from nothing. Common sense says that if something possessed the ability to create itself from nothing, then that something wasn't nothing, it was something -- a very intelligent creative power of some sort."

The best-selling author and TV co-host, added, "Hawking has violated the unspoken rules of atheism. He isn't supposed to use words like 'create' or even 'made.' They necessitate a Creator and a Maker. Neither are you supposed to let out that the essence of atheism is to believe that nothing created everything, because it's unthinking. It confirms the title of another book I wrote, called, You Can Lead an Atheist to Evidence, but You Can't Make Him Think. Nor should an atheist speak of gravity as being a 'law,' because that also denotes the axiom of a Law-giver. Laws don't happen by themselves. But look at how careless the professor was, with his, 'The Big Bang was the result of the inevitable laws of physics and did not need God to spark the creation of the Universe.'"

It seems that Professor Hawking has changed his mind about the need for God. Back in 1988, in his book A Brief History of Time, he said, "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God." Einstein said that he wanted to know the mind of God. Comfort maintains, "Both men can easily find the mind of God and through it see how we were created -- 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth' something of which we were reminded when the first manned mission to moon read from Genesis chapter one. We need to read it again."

Comfort is writing a series of books on men who, for good or evil, changed the course of history, and what they believed about God. It will include Einstein, Hitler, Churchill, Ghandi and The Beatles. He said, "This generation is having an atheist revival, because they have been fed the lie that atheism is intelligent when it's obviously not. We are hoping that this series of books will give them the perspective they are missing. No doubt there will be opposition to the series because atheists are afraid of their core beliefs being exposed. That's why they tried to stop us giving out Darwin's book, and flooded Amazon.com and gave my books low reviews. No one likes to be seen as a fool, but that's what they are." Ray Comfort is the president of livingwaters.com
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This is my personal opinion, but it seems to me that many of these top ranking scientist who tackle this issue are very bitter people and on a personal quest to "prove" that God is not real. At the end of the show, Hawkings says, God does not exist, there is no heaven, no hell, and also no after life. This life is all we have.

How very sad.


On the the other hand when you listen to the "lucky?" people who have died and come back, its fascinating. I mean really died too. I watched an interview with a guy who laid dead with no pulse at an accident for 45 minutes under the tarp. The EMS crew had already called it when they got there. This man says he experienced the afterlife and it was more beautiful and real then anything here on earth. He said he didn't want to come back. I have looked into many other accounts, and they all have very similar feelings. One could say they were humiliating but there are two problems with this.

One: the brain dies after 5 minutes with no oxygen. people who were flat-lined 15 plus minutes like the guy I stated above have a real medically documented claim to their experience.

Two: There have been many accounts where the people said the went out of body when they died, they explain in great detail about people in operating room and events around the building while they are flat-lined that have no reasonable explanation. The were able to recall conversation that took place between people in the cafeteria while they were two floors up on a table. There has been similar reported with people doing this while in deep coma.

There was a study done years ago where they places digital marques on the tip of high cabinets facing up in operating rooms. They flashed messages and could only be seen from looking down on the room. They had people who died and later revived who were able to recall what those said. They did not know they were there to begin with.

I find things like this fascinating. Perhaps the scientific community should spend some serious time researching such events instead of being on a hard line quest to prove how they are smarter then everyone else including God.
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quote
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad:


A good start, and I genuinely laud you for this.

I believe that the Creator has left a bunch of clues for us to find. He wants to be known. Unlike Deists, I don't believe that He created everything only to sit back and watch what happens. I believe that He is personal, and, therefore, has left them means by which those parts of Him He wishes known can be known.

My exploration has led down a specific path, and I am happy to talk about that path, if you would like.


Does He have a penis? It could be a woman.
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quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4: There was a study done years ago where they places digital marques on the tip of high cabinets facing up in operating rooms. They flashed messages and could only be seen from looking down on the room. They had people who died and later revived who were able to recall what those said. They did not know they were there to begin with.

I find things like this fascinating. Perhaps the scientific community should spend some serious time researching such events instead of being on a hard line quest to prove how they are smarter then everyone else including God.

I've seen on TV where it was said that experiments like that are currently underway.

But so far, no one who reports an "out-of-body" experience has accurately identified the messages or numbers that were discretely hidden from their normal view.

In other words--results to date are negative. At least, as far as the "out of body" experience being connected with the same world that we inhabit when we are normally alive.

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quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

I've seen on TV where it was said that experiments like that are currently underway.

But so far, no one who reports an "out-of-body" experience has accurately identified the messages or numbers that were discretely hidden from their normal view.

In other words--results to date are negative. At least, as far as the "out of body" experience being connected with the same world that we inhabit when we are normally alive.



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Report this Post08-08-2011 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

I kind of feel bad for Stephen Hawking. There's no shame in wanting to make a name for yourself. He certainly has a brilliant mind, and there's certainly no doubt about that... but he has lacked a lot of real substance for many of his theories. His whole black-hole theory that he spent nearly... what, 20 years trying to convince people was true... only ended up being wrong, again, supposedly... after he announced that he had been wrong.

The man desperately wants to make a name for himself, and he wants to keep himself in the spotlight to keep his funding and financing flowing. There is nothing that he has that would prove for or against the existence of God, so the fact that he's even trying to make a stink about it is kind of silly. Really, he has no proof that God didn't create the big bang, or that time even began WITH the big bang.

Oh well, not sure why I'm even wasting my time. The man can have his views, but I question the timing of this as more having to do with the fact that he has seriously fallen from prominence over the past couple of years.


Are you butt talking again? Where do you get the "desperately wants to make a name for himself"? He is one of the preeminant Scientists in the world, and one of the most famous..isn't he?

Or the idea that he is attempting to keep himself in the spotlight to "keep his funding and financing flowing". Are his finances suffering?? Do you think he really needs to beg for funding?? Any idea what he is worth?

I don't hear many Scientists disregarding his theories because of lack of prominence but maybe you have other info?

Now I'm not positive on what you are claiming about Hawkings black hole theories but as far as I know it was more that he revised his theory of the reemergence of matter not the various things like Hawking Radiation and other theories.

Anyways as for his views, I think some like to hear what one of the most respected cosmologists/physicists has to say about the origins of the universe but you are right it's just one persons view.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-08-2011).]

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newf

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quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

I've seen on TV where it was said that experiments like that are currently underway.

But so far, no one who reports an "out-of-body" experience has accurately identified the messages or numbers that were discretely hidden from their normal view.

In other words--results to date are negative. At least, as far as the "out of body" experience being connected with the same world that we inhabit when we are normally alive.


I've seen programs too in which people who lose oxygen to the brain have almost identical experiences as "out of body" ones, there are theories that it is merely the last flickerings of the brain. I believe some fighter pilots have said they have had such experiences when in the centrifuge and such. I do find near death stories fascinating though.
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