quote Originally posted by GADJet: Please inform me of what the other 8 are. Please forgive my ignorance. I am not very educated here.

being that we cannot perceive them, they have not been named. as far as we know, they only exist in theory. current "String Theory" claims there are 12 dimensions. so - this would imply we can only perceive 1/3rd of the universe.

Time does not exist in the absence of matter.

The fact that matter exists, in my opinion, is a strong argument for the existence of God.

And God, assuming (as I do) that he exists, is timeless..he is not bound by time, but outside of it. He is what we would consider to be past, present, and future simultaneously.

quote Originally posted by GADJet: Anyways, point being, I stand firm on my beliefs in God mainly because I have a personal relationship with him. He speaks to me and I listen. (Most of the time anyways) <-- But when I don't I have chosen to sin. It all comes down to choices in life. You can choose to trust and obey or distrust and live for yourself. Keep in mind your cheating yourself and your loved ones when you do this. Romans 6:23 Read that too. Those of you that do not believe is it because you have chosen to trust this after you have read the bible or is this a decision you have chosen because your parents raised you this way? The reason I ask this is because I was raised in church and I took my parents ways first. (Christian life style) I was saved at 9 and lived a Christian life until age 15. Then I rebelled. From ages 16-24 I lived like I wanted to. God let me run like I saw fit until it got out of hand. He corrected me and pulled me back. (I can give my testimony to anyone who wants it) I lived the drunken and drug life for several years. I finally came to conclusion where I was in life. Why? Because I ALWAYS felt empty inside. I never was filled and always searching for the truth and what I needed when I sinned constantly without care. Jesus fixed that for me. PM me if you want more.

So did you mean the first part abstractly, or do you believe that God actually speaks to you?


As for the second part, I was raised in a family that was loosely religious. I accepted it initially, but started questioning things when I reached the age that I could read and comprehend the material. Even as a child, it just didn't make sense.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: So did you mean the first part abstractly, or do you believe that God actually speaks to you? As for the second part, I was raised in a family that was loosely religious. I accepted it initially, but started questioning things when I reached the age that I could read and comprehend the material. Even as a child, it just didn't make sense.

I mean that as in literal sense. As in He speaks to me and I am guided. Actually some like to say (as do I) that the Holy Spirit conveys our conversation. Have you ever had that "You should'nt do that" feeling? Some like to say its your concience talking to you, I beleive thats the Holy Spirit guiding you. Its totaly up to you weither or not you choose to make the right choice. Seems to me the more you listen and obey the more you hear that. The less you obey and turn your back on what "Your Concience" or Holy Spirit tells you to do the less you hear it.

I don't persay hear a voice telling me "Allen, get up, go slay a deer for your family food for the winter". I hear a guidance leading me to make the proper decisions in my life. Keep in mind that its ALWAYS a choice. You choose to do whats right and what is wrong. Everyone has the descernment to know right from wrong. To sin or not to sin... That is the question.


As to your second statement, if you will seek Him with an open heart and truely seek the truth He will reveal himself to you. Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.

When you tried it yourself, did you honestly try. Did you seek Him and search for the truth? I did not truely seek Him and long for the truth until nearly 30 years old. I really grew my relationship with Him around age 28. I began experience heartache and pain and looked for the true answer. My dad (my best friend) was diagnosed with malignant melanoma in 2008. He passed on July 5th 2010. He and I were inseperatable the last 5 years of his life. 3 of those years he was healthy, 2 of those he was not. When my sister called me and told me about it I broke down and cried out to Him. Asking for a better relationship with Him and naturally for healing of my dad. I got 1 of the 2 requests.
I also was blessed with the son my dad always wanted me to have. I am the last of my family to carry the name. Dad always wanted a grand son with our last name. He was born 3 months after dad passed. So sad.



The last thing dad left us with was scripture. The main thing he had circled was John 11:4. He carried that beliefe to his grave.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: As for the second part, I was raised in a family that was loosely religious. I accepted it initially, but started questioning things when I reached the age that I could read and comprehend the material. Even as a child, it just didn't make sense.

I feel like you are calling Christians stupid here. Am I getting the wrong vibe or did it just come out wrong?

What doesn't make sense to you?

quote Originally posted by Bwhit12: I feel like you are calling Christians stupid here. Am I getting the wrong vibe or did it just come out wrong? What doesn't make sense to you?

. Nevermind I mis read.

[This message has been edited by GADJet (edited 08-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Bwhit12: I feel like you are calling Christians stupid here. Am I getting the wrong vibe or did it just come out wrong? What doesn't make sense to you?

That wasn't explicitly my intent, but I see how it may have come off that way.

I personally find religion, when interpreted literally, to be contradictory and implausible. I don't think any less of people who feel otherwise, and I don't consciously hold it against them. It just isn't the right choice for me.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: That wasn't explicitly my intent, but I see how it may have come off that way. I personally find religion, when interpreted literally, to be contradictory and implausible. I don't think any less of people who feel otherwise, and I don't consciously hold it against them. It just isn't the right choice for me.

I'm just confused on where the contradictions are. I guess what I am really asking for is some evidence. Do you have any off the top of your head or are you willing to do some research to show me the contradictions?

quote Originally posted by 8-P: That wasn't explicitly my intent, but I see how it may have come off that way. I personally find religion, when interpreted literally, to be contradictory and implausible. I don't think any less of people who feel otherwise, and I don't consciously hold it against them. It just isn't the right choice for me.

I think you mean that you find scripture, not religion, when interpreted literally, it makes no sense. This is true. If you read the bible as a literal verbatim reading, it contradicts itself. Of course, your not supposed to read it this way, its full of metaphors. Would the English language make sense if you took everything literally? ..nope.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: That wasn't explicitly my intent, but I see how it may have come off that way. I personally find religion, when interpreted literally, to be contradictory and implausible. I don't think any less of people who feel otherwise, and I don't consciously hold it against them. It just isn't the right choice for me.

Being non religious myself, I can understand this. My mom is a hard core Christian, and I know she means well and is a good person, so I know religious people aren't just a bunch of nut jobs. I also have a hard time with how irrational it all is, though.

On a side note, I always have a hard time believing a "Pastafarian" when he claims he has nothing against Christians or other religions.

quote Originally posted by Bwhit12: I'm just confused on where the contradictions are. I guess what I am really asking for is some evidence. Do you have any off the top of your head or are you willing to do some research to show me the contradictions?

Really? If you have to ask where the contradictions are, you probably haven't actually read the bible.

But it's really not even the inconsistencies that bother me. I have problems with a lot of the fundamental concepts, like the idea of inherent sin. Or the fact that he purportedly committed genocide multiple times to cleanse the world of sinful people he created. Were he perfect, would that have happened?

I'm bothered by the fact that an omnipotent, all-loving God would be willing to sentence the majority of 'his children' to an eternity in Hell simply because they were too ignorant to believe in him. In regards to that, I think Marcus Aurelius said it best:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you wuill be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will lived on in the memories of your loved ones."

If there is a God, and he won't let me into heaven just because I didn't believe in him, yet he's okay with amoral 'sinners' as long as they apologize first, then I don't really want to hang out with that guy anyway - he kind of sounds like a douche.


Again, though, I'm not trying to change your mind or get into an argument on religion - we both know that won't go anywhere. Just giving you my beliefs.

quote Originally posted by Bwhit12: I'm just confused on where the contradictions are. I guess what I am really asking for is some evidence. Do you have any off the top of your head or are you willing to do some research to show me the contradictions?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

.

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

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ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

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PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

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ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

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MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

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MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

[This message has been edited by TommyRocker (edited 08-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 8-P: Hey, that's great - I'm absolutely down with the morals (of the New Testament, anyway). Be kind, don't steal, don't kill - I'm on board with those things. But if you really believe the earth is six thousand years old, that Noah loaded a boat up with animals or that Jesus came from the sky and walked on water, that's a different story.

Guess I am in a different story category then. Cause I do believe what the Bible tells me.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: Really? If you have to ask where the contradictions are, you probably haven't actually read the bible. ...

That's pretty much the conversation stopper right there. The instant someone asks for the inconsistencies or "errors" you know they have never studied the OT/NT at any critical level.

At that point, there is no sense in discussing it. And if they have, there is no reason to discuss it.

The internet is chock full of critical analysis of all religious texts. To have never checked ...

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by GADJet: Guess I am in a different story category then. Cause I do believe what the Bible tells me.

Every word of it? Is it okay to beat your wives/children/slaves if they're disobedient? Should a woman you rape be required to marry you? Can you drink poison?


Edit: The poison one was from Mark 16:17-18. Felt like I should preemptively cite it.

[This message has been edited by 8-P (edited 08-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 8-P: Every word of it? Is it okay to beat your wives/children/slaves if they're disobedient? Should a woman you rape be required to marry you? Can you drink poison? Edit: The poison one was from Mark 16:17-18. Felt like I should preemptively cite it.

You show me in the Bible where Jesus tells me to beat my wife(because i only have 1)/children/slaves (I have none). Jesus did not teach this.

Some people enjoy Penn and Tellers take on things. (WARNING language. also some people might get upset with the way they talk of the Bible and God...etc.)

quote Originally posted by GADJet: You show me in the Bible where Jesus tells me to beat my wife(because i only have 1)/children/slaves (I have none). Jesus did not teach this.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us....Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."

Deuteronomy 22:12-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." -

Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

quote Originally posted by newf: Some people enjoy Penn and Tellers take on things. (WARNING language. also some people might get upset with the way they talk of the Bible and God...etc.)

This pretty much sums up Penn and Teller. And any non believer for that matter as well.

Romans 1:18-32
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

quote Originally posted by GADJet: This is exactly my point. I was hoping you were going to show this. This is directly from the OLD TESTAMENT. God created a new covenant with humanity with the crucifixion of Christ.

So...was he wrong the first time around?

quote Originally posted by 8-P: So...was he wrong the first time around?

No, humanity was. We created the slumber we live in. God gave Adam and Eve free will because he loved them. They choose the path they chose.

quote Originally posted by GADJet: No, humanity was. We created the slumber we live in. God gave Adam and Eve free will because he loved them. They choose the path they chose.

Why did he change the rules?

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: Why did he change the rules?

He didn't. He set 1 rule.
Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

You see, Eve first then Adam changed the our lifestyle for all mankind. It was a choice they made. They chose to go against God's will.
Genesis 3:6-7
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

..Thank God we have a different outlook on whores today,,after the Virgin I married hadeth taketh the home & every thing I hadeth..I fell in with drunken harlots & my Days & expecially the nights were pleasant to behold..I speaketh to the whore ,Beach get ma a beer
..I am firmly against stoning non Virgins,,send any loose ones to my abode in Casselberry ,florida..I am not particular or fussy about my sluts..

...............Non beleavers ,,atheis ,queers,agnogstics,& other nose pickers
Be proud,stand Tall,,America & Israel be hosting the Apocalypse in the next 20 years
Get a front row seat ,Fiero forum members ,ya wanna be up front for this

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 08-16-2011).]

While I don't agree with the first half of Stan's post (I have daughters, and my wife is pretty much OK), the second half gives me hope for the future.

..Patricks dad you did not understand the first part of the post
..front row seating will be difficult to Obtain
..I do not understand the creation of the world ,,I fully understand nut bag Hawkings.Think about Hawkings burning alive,his voice box screams unheard as he is in a rolling wheelchair Flaming to a steep cliff.a spectacular Knievel flaming drop as 100 acme cameramen roll film dreaming of the $$$ recieved from the crippled buffoon flying thru the air in a final Flaming burst,a giant final primordial fart adding jato pulsing impetus to his Wile.Coyote rocket to Hell..beep,beep

...I am the only fiero forum member endorsed By Jesus & Satan

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 08-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: ..Thank God we have a different outlook on whores today,,after the Virgin I married hadeth taketh the home & every thing I hadeth..I fell in with drunken harlots & my Days & expecially the nights were pleasant to behold..I speaketh to the whore ,Beach get ma a beer ..I am firmly against stoning non Virgins,,send any loose ones to my abode in Casselberry ,florida..I am not particular or fussy about my sluts..

You may win me over yet, Stan. At least we're on the same page somewhere.

George Carlin pretty much sums it up in the first 3 minutes of this one. Warning language....it's George Carlin.

,I like George Carlin,s comedy ,,but he was another marxist who should have stayed in the mental institution he went to.he slams left & right ,his anti american policies were democrat,but he never voted
..Carlin hated the flag,hated our Military ,did not like America,detested people ,but manage to tolerate people to make a million bucks, a greedy SOB he slam others who like money as capitalist Pigs .He & Jane fonda made a good pair..He mellowed to make money..
He was a typical atheis,no Patriotism,dislike of people,hated normal people,dislikes YOU.
..Luckily he is stoking the fires of Hell & soon he and Steven Hawkings will share firey rides in the wheel chair & Gay aids catus sex.
all religions are the same including the democrats,, we all feel guilty about something,& have holidays ,lets help people, then eat !!

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 08-17-2011).]