The Rev Klaas Hendrikse can offer his congregation little hope of life after death, and he's not the sort of man to sugar the pill.
The Exodus Church is part of the mainstream Dutch Protestant Church An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland.
It is part of the mainstream Dutch Protestant Church, and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".
"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."
Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.
"God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience” End Quote Rev Klass Hendrikse
"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."
Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.
His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out.
A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the Dutch Protestant Church was either agnostic or atheist. Klaas Hendrikse: "You don't have to believe that Jesus was physically resurrected" The Rev Kirsten Slattenaar, Exodus Church's regular priest, also rejects the idea - widely considered central to Christianity - that Jesus was divine as well as human.
"I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself."
Mrs Slattenaar acknowledges that she's changing what the Church has said, but, she insists, not the "real meaning of Christianity".
She says that there "is not only one answer" and complains that "a lot of traditional beliefs are outside people and have grown into rigid things that you can't touch any more".
Bini Von Reingarden, who's been going to Exodus Church for 20 years, is among lay people attracted to such free thinking.
Some believe that traditional Christianity has too restrictive a notion of the nature of God "I think it's very liberating. [Klaas Hendrikse] is using the Bible in a metaphorical way so I can bring it to my own way of thinking, my own way of doing."
Wim De Jong says, "Here you can believe what you want to think for yourself, what you really feel and believe is true."
Churches in Amsterdam were hoping to attract such people with a recent open evening.
At the Old Church "in the hottest part of the red light district", the attractions included "speed-dating".
As skimpily dressed girls began to appear in red-lit windows in the streets outside, visitors to the church moved from table to table to discuss love with a succession of strangers.
Professor Hijme Stoeffels of the Free University in Amsterdam says it is in such concepts as love that people base their diffuse ideas of religion.
"In our society it's called 'somethingism'," he says. "There must be 'something' between heaven and earth, but to call it 'God', and even 'a personal God', for the majority of Dutch is a bridge too far.
"Christian churches are in a market situation. They can offer their ideas to a majority of the population which is interested in spirituality or some kind of religion."
To compete in this market of ideas, some Christian groups seem ready virtually to reinvent Christianity.
They want the Netherlands to be a laboratory for Christianity, experimenting with radical new ways of understanding the faith.
Click to play
Churchgoer: "For me the service is very freeing" Stroom ("Stream") West is the experiment devised by one church to reach out to the young people.
In an Amsterdam theatre young people contemplate the concept of eternity by spacing out a heap of rice grains individually across the floor.
"The difference from other churches is that we are… experimenting with the contents of the gospel," says Rikko Voorberg, who helps to run Stroom West. "Traditionally we bring a beautiful story and ask people to sit down listen and get convinced. This is the other way around."
Stroom focuses on people's personal search for God, not on the church's traditional black-and-white answers.
Rikko believes traditional Christianity places God in too restricted a box.
He believes that in a post-modern society that no longer has the same belief in certainty, there is an urgent need to "take God out of the box".
"The Church has to be alert to what is going on in society," he says. "It has to change to stay Christian. You can't preach heaven in the same way today as you did 2,000 years ago, and we have to think again what it is. We can use the same words and say something totally different."
Staphorst, in the Dutch Bible Belt, has a by-law against swearing When I asked Rikko whether he believed Jesus was the son of God he looked uncomfortable.
"That's a very tough question. I'm not sure what it means," he says.
"People have very strict ideas about what it means. Some ideas I might agree with, some ideas I don't."
Such equivocation is anathema in Holland's Bible Belt, among the large number of people who live according to strict Christian orthodoxy.
In the quiet town of Staphorst about a quarter of the population attends the conservative Dutch Reformed Church every Sunday.
The town even has a by-law against swearing.
Its deputy mayor, Sytse de Jong, accuses progressive groups of trying to change Christianity to fit current social norms.
"When we get people into the Church by throwing Jesus Christ out of the Church, then we lose the core of Christianity. Then we are not reforming the institutions and attitudes but the core of our message."
But many churches are keen to work with anyone who believes in "something".
They believe that only through adaptation can their religion survive.
The young people at Stroom West write on plates the names of those things that prevent earth from being heaven - cancer, war, hunger - and destroy them symbolically.
The new Christianity is already developing its own ritual.
"You don't have to believe that Jesus was physically resurrected"
This whole story is really sad. What they talk about isn't Christianity, it's more of the New-Age thought that has been gaining a lot of steam in America.
You don't have to believe in Jesus, or that He was resurrected, true... but if you don't, you won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes, I know, Wichita and others will quote this and tell me how I'm an idiot to believe in such fairy tales, but that's not my point. In order to be a Christian, you must follow Christ and believe He died and resurrected for you. What this man talks about really has very little to do with Christianity.
I would strongly defend your right to believe as you will, and therefore will NOT say a thing against your beliefs. I know they bring you succour...and that is what Faith is for. MY faith probably brings me as much, if not MORE succour to me, as yours does to you Brennan. And that is wonderful. And beware Christianity is a nomeclature for a religion which is, and has been changing and morphing, for thousands of years, and will continue to do so. BECAUSE, as he says...it is built on general EXPERIENCE, not the words that sum it up (very effectively IMHO ) in the Bible.And those experiences change and morph too, over the years.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
This whole story is really sad. What they talk about isn't Christianity, it's more of the New-Age thought that has been gaining a lot of steam in America.
You don't have to believe in Jesus, or that He was resurrected, true... but if you don't, you won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes, I know, Wichita and others will quote this and tell me how I'm an idiot to believe in such fairy tales, but that's not my point. In order to be a Christian, you must follow Christ and believe He died and resurrected for you. What this man talks about really has very little to do with Christianity.
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 08-05-2011).]
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08:32 AM
Gandalf Member
Posts: 647 From: Stockport, England Registered: May 2009
Incidentally, I know its fashionable on here to quote an article like that, offend someone and say you were just quoting it for interest and that its not necesarily your view - but this resonated heavily with me, so I won't be doing that!
I would strongly defend your right to believe as you will, and therefore will NOT say a thing against your beliefs. I know they bring you succour...and that is what Faith is foir. MY fau¡ith probably brings me as much succour to me, as yours does to you Brennan. And that is wonderful. And beware Christianity is a nomeclature for a religion which is, and has been changing and morphing, for thousands of years, and will continue to do so. BECAUSE, as he says...it is built on general EXPERIENCE, not the words that sum it up (very effectively IMHO ) in the Bible.
And beware yourself, Nick, for there exists but one Truth. I personally believe I've found it, but I don't pretend to believe that everyone's versions are all true. There is one Truth, and that's it.
Now THAT is where you are going wrong, IMHO Brennan. NOWHERE did I exhort you to change your views or beliefs, or issue dire warnings; I just said to each his own. Without offense, I resent your preaching YOUR views to me, which probably drive me even FURTHER away from your doctrine...and why I prefer, and believe in MINE I'm not trying to belittle you, but...for a twenty year old trying to tell a 65 year old that he is WRONG, is the biggest fault your 'religion' suffers ,again in my humble opinion. But I hope you will learn as life progresses, and adapt to the experiences that life delivers. Don't just ignore them. They are very important. Life, and intelligent thinking, will teach you more than ANY words written or spoken anywhere You still have that to come. But continue to follow the core aspects of your religion too...they are a good guide to being a better person. " I attend the greatest University of all, and am still learning 65 years on. That University is called 'LIFE'. There is NO better teacher,or so I have discovered, if we listen '
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 08-05-2011).]
Now THAT is where you are going wrong, IMHO Brennan. NOWHERE did I exhort you to change your views or beliefs, or issue dire warnings; I just said to each his own. Without offende, I resent your preaching YOUR views to me, which probably drive me even FURTHER away from your doctrine...and why I prefer, and believe in MINE I'm not trying to belittle you, but...for a twenty year old trying to tell a 65 year old that he is WRONG, is the biggest fault your 'religion' suffers again in my humble opinion. But I hope you will learn as life progresses, and adapt to the experiences that life delivers. Don't just ignore them. They are very important. Life, and intelligent thinking, will teach you more than ANY words written or spoken anywhere You still have that to come. But continue to follow the core aspects of your religion too...they are a good guide to being a better person.
I didn't say you were. I said I believe I've found that absolute Truth. That's where the kicker is. Do I know for certain? Maybe not. Maybe the Muslims have it right, or maybe Buddhists, or maybe we haven't actually found the answer yet. Maybe nothing exists. My point was, we can't all be right. There is one thing that is correct, regardless of whatever answer that is. It's impossible to believe everyone is right because they contradict one another.
And, I'm not taking offense to anything you are saying, as you shouldn't be taking offense to mine. I didn't say I was right and you were wrong, I just reminded you that we can't all be right at the same time. It wouldn't make sense.
[quote]but if you don't, you won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven.[/qoute] That sure as heck sounds like a threat to me
It wasn't. You don't have to believe--I won't force anyone. But this man is preaching a new religion and calling it Christianity. Under Christianity, he is wrong. I was using his own system to say that, not yours. I wasn't telling you anything.
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08:57 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
"God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience” End Quote Rev Klass Hendrikse
The new Christianity is already developing its own ritual.
Experience is what people crave, he's giving them and telling them what they want to hear. He'll probably end up making big bucks. The thing is, he's pretty quick going to have to come up with his own bible, because all the folks that will come to worship what he says surely aren't reading their King James.
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09:01 AM
PFF
System Bot
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Incidentally, I know its fashionable on here to quote an article like that, offend someone and say you were just quoting it for interest and that its not necesarily your view - but this resonated heavily with me, so I won't be doing that!
OR, it could be exactly for the reason the person said it was, and someone found it fashionable to become offended on their own accord.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 08-05-2011).]
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09:10 AM
Gandalf Member
Posts: 647 From: Stockport, England Registered: May 2009
I would strongly defend your right to believe as you will, and therefore will NOT say a thing against your beliefs. I know they bring you succour...and that is what Faith is for. MY faith probably brings me as much, if not MORE succour to me, as yours does to you Brennan. And that is wonderful. And beware Christianity is a nomeclature for a religion which is, and has been changing and morphing, for thousands of years, and will continue to do so. BECAUSE, as he says...it is built on general EXPERIENCE, not the words that sum it up (very effectively IMHO ) in the Bible.And those experiences change and morph too, over the years.
The very reason many people claim the Bible is out dated, or even that the constitution of our country is out dated and not keeping up with the times, or with the current views of people. What morphs is people. The past does not change. People like this preacher are the ones who change it and try to morph it to suit something saleable. Truth does not change. Sure some people claim to know the truth and some don't. Some are correct. Some are not. As Bdub said he believes what he believes, this guy believes what he believes. But he should call himself what he is, and whatever it is, it is not a Christian.
No sweat ,,the Moslems will control Holland in 20 years,, there not going to put up with any sort of Christian clap trap crap.. all spiritualist beleave in the Lie,nothingness, they are almost beleavers there is one truth,& no man knows for certain what it is..,
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09:54 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40728 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I agree. He can preach whatever he wants to, but don't call it Christianity. By definition, it isn't.
Sure it is, it's just a different flavor. There are dozens of different Christian sects, all with different beliefs. These people follow the moral teachings of the bible, they just don't believe in God the same way more 'traditional' Christians do.
Sure it is, it's just a different flavor. There are dozens of different Christian sects, all with different beliefs. These people follow the moral teachings of the bible, they just don't believe in God the same way more 'traditional' Christians do.
Teaching that God does not exist outside of just a human experience completely goes against the Bible, and therefore is not Christianity. They are teaching that everyone is right, but they just have their own ways to reach that experience. They are teaching that Jesus was a good guy, but that he wasn't actually the Son of God or that He resurrected. They completely disregard such essential aspects of Christianity that it can't rightfully be called Christianity. It would be like me taking Star Wars, cutting out everything but about 10 minutes, then adding two hours of my own footage and calling it Star Wars.
Teaching that God does not exist outside of just a human experience completely goes against the Bible, and therefore is not Christianity. They are teaching that everyone is right, but they just have their own ways to reach that experience. They are teaching that Jesus was a good guy, but that he wasn't actually the Son of God or that He resurrected. They completely disregard such essential aspects of Christianity that it can't rightfully be called Christianity. It would be like me taking Star Wars, cutting out everything but about 10 minutes, then adding two hours of my own footage and calling it Star Wars.
So what about non-trinitarian Christians, who believe in a traditional God, but not the divinity of Jesus? Are they not Christians because they don't share your particular beliefs?
They're all reading from the same book, just interpreting it in different ways.
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12:18 PM
Bwhit12 Member
Posts: 121 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Registered: Aug 2011
Sure it is, it's just a different flavor. There are dozens of different Christian sects, all with different beliefs. These people follow the moral teachings of the bible, they just don't believe in God the same way more 'traditional' Christians do.
Did you read the same article I read? I didn't even read through half the article and just by two or three quotes from this guy I can tell you he is not a Christian. In order to be a Christian you must Believe Jesus Christ came to this earth and died for your sins. The man is quoted multiple times saying God is not real and the story of Jesus was completely made up. He along with his doctrine should not be related to Christianity.
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12:20 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by 8-P: So what about non-trinitarian Christians, who believe in a traditional God, but not the divinity of Jesus? Are they not Christians because they don't share your particular beliefs?
They're all reading from the same book, just interpreting it in different ways.
It's not my particular beliefs, it's the Bible. The Bible makes Jesus's divinity pretty dang clear in a number of passages, and without it, the system doesn't make much sense. If Jesus wasn't God, then he was actually a pretty big dick. He talked with the authority of God, lied, and had others die for Him. He completely misled everyone in His time, if He wasn't Divine. He repeatedly told people the only way to enter Heaven was to drop everything and follow Him. If He lied, he was a dick.
There aren't misinterpretations about Titus 2:13, Philippians 2:5-8, Hebrews 1:8, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, Revelation 1:7, 2:8, 1 Corinthians 10:4, 1 Peter 5:4, Mark 14:61-62, or Daniel 7:13-14. They are fairly crystal clear in that Jesus is God. A Christian follows and believes Christ's teachings. They understand Jesus was God and that He died for them. Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Evangelical-Frees, etc. are all Christians. I don't care if you believe baptism to be completely irrelevant or very important. I don't care if you believe in Saints or not. All that matters is that central core that Jesus is God and that He died for us to rise again and conquer sin. That makes up a Christian.
EDIT: Had the wrong tense in a verb.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 08-05-2011).]
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12:57 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36404 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I'm not trying to belittle you, but...for a twenty year old trying to tell a 65 year old that he is WRONG...
But I hope you will learn as life progresses, and adapt to the experiences that life delivers. Don't just ignore them. They are very important. Life, and intelligent thinking, will teach you more than ANY words written or spoken anywhere.
Nick, me thinks Brennan will be a whole lot less sure of himself and his beliefs (religious or otherwise) the older he gets. Happens to the best of us.
A whole lot more shades of grey become evident...
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01:07 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Nick, me thinks Brennan will be a whole lot less sure of himself and his beliefs (religious or otherwise) the older he gets. Happens to the best of us.
A whole lot more shades of grey become evident...
Pl enty of shades of gray out there, hence this:
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
The very reason many people claim the Bible is out dated, or even that the constitution of our country is out dated and not keeping up with the times, or with the current views of people. What morphs is people. The past does not change. People like this preacher are the ones who change it and try to morph it to suit something saleable. Truth does not change. Sure some people claim to know the truth and some don't. Some are correct. Some are not. As Bdub said he believes what he believes, this guy believes what this guy believes. But he should call himself what he is, and whatever it is, it is not a Christian.
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01:46 PM
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
The word "Christian" means "little Christ". Christ isn't a part of Christianity. He is ALL of Christianity.
Since God gave us all free will, I have no problem with this guy believing what he wants. He can worship the great roller skate in the sky if he wants. He just can't call it Christianity.
Why would I need a church to tell me to ignore God and Jesus, and live my life any way I want? If that's what I believed, I wouldn't need a church.
The Old and New Testament are either 100% the word of a god or they are not. There is no in-between. It's all or nothing. There is no room for interpretation. It can't morph or be revised.
Now choose. Once we do, we can only go about our business.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-05-2011).]
The Old and New Testament are either 100% the word of a god or they are not. There is no in-between. It's all or nothing. There is no room for interpretation. It can't morph or be revised.
Now choose. Once we do, we can only go about our business.
Oh, please. The vast majority of believers don't feel that way - they pick choose what to believe and what to disregard. For example:
"Exodus 35 Sabbath Regulations 1 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. "
Edit: That was an Old Testament example. Here's one from the New:
Mark 10:21-25
New Living Translation (NLT)
21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard[a] to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”
[This message has been edited by 8-P (edited 08-05-2011).]
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02:43 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Oh, please. The vast majority of believers don't feel that way - they pick choose what to believe and what to disregard. For example:
"Exodus 35 Sabbath Regulations 1 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. "
Edit: That was an Old Testament example. Here's one from the New:
Mark 10:21-25
New Living Translation (NLT)
21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard[a] to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”
In this regard there are interpretations, for example Monks lived the way they did because they took "sell everything you have" literally and to the extreme. Also things like how should some one be baptised? Should they be at all? Etc.
I recommend gotquestions.org as a good source and jumping off point to then read the passages linked in their text.
Sabbath Regulations, it ias old testamewnt as you said, and some old testament things are put away and replaced with new : "Question: "Is working on Sunday a sin?"
Answer: Working on Sunday is definitely not a sin. Working on Sunday is not prohibited in the Bible. The idea that Christians should not be working on Sunday comes from a misunderstanding of Old Testament Sabbath-keeping for the Israelites and its relation to Sunday worship for Christians. According to Exodus 20:8-11, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, on which the Israelites were to rest, in remembrance that God created the universe in six days and then “rested” on the seventh day. “Keeping the Sabbath holy” was defined as not working on the Sabbath." http://www.gotquestions.org/working-on-Sunday.html
"Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday “Christian Sabbath” is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Colossians 2:16–17). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ “canceled the written code, with its regulations” (Colossians 2:14)." http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html
Jesus does not demand we all sell everything we own. But: "Greed and a desire for riches are traps that bring ruin and destruction. “The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil,” and Christians are warned, “Do not put your trust in wealth” (1 Timothy 6:9-10; 17-18). " It is the love of money, and not money itself, that is the problem. The love of money is a sin because it gets in the way of worshipping God. Jesus said it was very hard for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life, Jesus told him to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. “When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth” (Matthew 19:16-22; Luke 10:17-31). By instructing him to give up his money, Jesus pointed out the young man’s main problem: greed. The man could not follow Christ because he was following money. His love of this world interfered with his love for God.
In this regard there are interpretations, for example Monks lived the way they did because they took "sell everything you have" literally and to the extreme. Also things like how should some one be baptised? Should they be at all? Etc.
I recommend gotquestions.org as a good source and jumping off point to then read the passages linked in their text.
Sabbath Regulations: "Question: "Is working on Sunday a sin?"
Answer: Working on Sunday is definitely not a sin. Working on Sunday is not prohibited in the Bible. The idea that Christians should not be working on Sunday comes from a misunderstanding of Old Testament Sabbath-keeping for the Israelites and its relation to Sunday worship for Christians. According to Exodus 20:8-11, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, on which the Israelites were to rest, in remembrance that God created the universe in six days and then “rested” on the seventh day. “Keeping the Sabbath holy” was defined as not working on the Sabbath." http://www.gotquestions.org/working-on-Sunday.html
Jesus does not demand we all sell everything we own. But: "Greed and a desire for riches are traps that bring ruin and destruction. “The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil,” and Christians are warned, “Do not put your trust in wealth” (1 Timothy 6:9-10; 17-18). " It is the love of money, and not money itself, that is the problem. The love of money is a sin because it gets in the way of worshipping God. Jesus said it was very hard for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life, Jesus told him to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. “When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth” (Matthew 19:16-22; Luke 10:17-31). By instructing him to give up his money, Jesus pointed out the young man’s main problem: greed. The man could not follow Christ because he was following money. His love of this world interfered with his love for God.
That's my point exactly - the bible's open for interpretation. If you read it literally, you'd be murdering your children and taking slaves for wives.
In relation to the original post, Reverend Hendrikse is absolutely free to interpret the book however he would like, and as long as his religion is based off that book, he's no less of a Christian than anyone else.
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03:04 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
That's my point exactly - the bible's open for interpretation. If you read it literally, you'd be murdering your children and taking slaves for wives.
In relation to the original post, Reverend Hendrikse is absolutely free to interpret the book however he would like, and as long as his religion is based off that book, he's no less of a Christian than anyone else.
I don't know how you can see it that way after reading everyones posts. Make sure to catch the edits I added after your quote. Check out gotquestions.org and ask your questions that you think are open to interpretation, and see what the viewpoint is there. Usually how people get stuck on a certain interpretation is by not getting enough info, or not taking the whole Bible into account. Alot of things changed with Jesus dying for sins.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 08-05-2011).]
In this regard there are interpretations, for example Monks lived the way they did because they took "sell everything you have" literally and to the extreme. Also things like how should some one be baptised? Should they be at all? Etc.
I recommend gotquestions.org as a good source and jumping off point to then read the passages linked in their text. ***** And I recommend not taking words written by another equally fallible Human Being, but go through Life as best you can, and learn DIRECTLYfrom that which Life can teach you. Then there can be no deception, no 'control', and no erroneous or biased translation.^****
Sabbath Regulations, it is old testamewnt as you said, and some old testament things are put away and replaced with new :***** So Christianity DOES morph, adapt and change then??
"Question: "Is working on Sunday a sin?"
Answer: Working on Sunday is definitely not a sin. Working on Sunday is not prohibited in the Bible. The idea that Christians should not be working on Sunday comes from a misunderstanding********[color=blue] So...how many other 'misunderstandings' have there been, and how many 'corrections' do you accept, and how many deny?****** of Old Testament Sabbath-keeping for the Israelites and its relation to Sunday worship for Christians. According to Exodus 20:8-11, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, on which the Israelites were to rest, in remembrance that God created the universe in six days and then “rested” on the seventh day. “Keeping the Sabbath holy” was defined as not working on the Sabbath." http://www.gotquestions.org/working-on-Sunday.html
"Looking more closely at point 4 above **** 'I am led to believe it will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday “Christian Sabbath” is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Colossians 2:16–17). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ “canceled the written code, with its regulations” (Colossians 2:14)." http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html
Jesus does not demand we all sell everything we own. But: "Greed and a desire for riches are traps that bring ruin and destruction. “The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil,” and Christians are warned, “Do not put your trust in wealth” (1 Timothy 6:9-10; 17-18). " It is the love of money, and not money itself, that is the problem....is this where the mantra regarding a gun does not kill, only the person using it' come from?**The love of money is a sin because it gets in the way of worshipping God. Jesus said it was very hard for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life, Jesus told him to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. “When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth” (Matthew 19:16-22; Luke 10:17-31). By instructing him to give up his money, Jesus pointed out the young man’s main problem: greed. The man could not follow Christ because he was following money. His love of this world interfered with his love for God. ooops...watch out all you people who invest in the Market/ Capitalists... or are you not affected by this?****
See, you can abridge/amend/accept/reject anything and everything you choose to. My 'religion' (personal beliefs) will never harm me, so long as I use my brain, treat others as I would have them treat ME, and respect the power of Nature. Acts of God do not kill or punish, because they are NOT acts of 'God' at all. but.ignorance of the ways of Nature CAN and WILL I have said many times, that Jesus DID exist, was a brilliant, decent and far-seeing Man, who weaved 'spells and magic' to try to explain complicated things in Life, that the average Human Being at the TIME could never ever grasp or understand, just as children 'need ' fairytales to let them begin to understand, until they were old enough to grasp the REALITY behind the fairytales.
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 08-05-2011).]
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03:33 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
See, you can abridge/amend/accept/reject anything and everything you choose to. My 'religion' (personal beliefs) will never harm me, so long as I use my brain, treat others as I would have them treat ME, and respect the power of Nature. Acts of God do not kill or punish, because they are NOT acts of 'God' at all. but.ignorance of the ways of Nature CAN and WILL I have said many times, that Jesus DID exist, was a brilliant, decent and far-seeing Man, who weaved 'spells and magic' to try to explain complicated things in Life, that the average Human Being at the TIME could never ever grasp or understand, just as children 'need ' fairytales to let them begin to understand, until they were old enough to grasp the REALITY behind the fairytales.
See I have said before, you believe what you like. Jesus said no one comes to the father except thru him, how was he briliant if you believe that was a lie? People didn't get smarter over time as many believe, many ancient egyptians could put many modern folk to shame.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 08-05-2011).]
Sounds like a new-agey version of Christianity, but without that whole Christianity part.
I'd call it Die Hard Jesus: The Comeback.
Brennan: you are so embarrassingly self-righteous that you're precisely the kind of Christian to give other Christians a bad rap. Your prattle impresses no one and does nothing but alienate your audience, even your fellow Christians. I'm setting a Google Alert for "theBDub finally loses virginity" and waiting for it to trigger before I really care about anything else you have to say. Used to find it comical, now it's just annoying.
That's my point exactly - the bible's open for interpretation. If you read it literally, you'd be murdering your children and taking slaves for wives.
In relation to the original post, Reverend Hendrikse is absolutely free to interpret the book however he would like, and as long as his religion is based off that book, he's no less of a Christian than anyone else.
When Jesus died and rose again, he changed things. He didn't change any interpretation; He changed Sin in the world and gave us a door to forgiveness. Jesus wasn't telling every man to sell every possession. If you look at the entire text, you see that the man came to Jesus and said "Look, I've done everything right! I'm a good guy!" But Jesus saw that greed was his real "god" and told him to sell everything in order to follow Him. He had to sell everything because that's what was holding him back.
My long-term struggle has never been greed. Mine has to do with adultery (pr0n). It's taken a lot of energy to rely on God enough to help me out, but thankfully He did. It's still a struggle for me to lust, and I'm letting God work with me on that.
With that context, does it make more sense that I'm still taking the Bible literally, while also not selling everything I own?
Brennan: you are so embarrassingly self-righteous that you're precisely the kind of Christian to give other Christians a bad rap. Your prattle impresses no one and does nothing but alienate your audience, even your fellow Christians. I'm setting a Google Alert for "theBDub finally loses virginity" and waiting for it to trigger before I really care about anything else you have to say. Used to find it comical, now it's just annoying.
Could you explain to me how you got that from the text in this thread? Yes, I believe Christianity is the Way, otherwise I wouldn't follow it. Nowhere in this thread did I say I was better than anyone else. Nor did I say I knew I had it right and everyone else was wrong.
When Jesus died and rose again, he changed things. He didn't change any interpretation; He changed Sin in the world and gave us a door to forgiveness. Jesus wasn't telling every man to sell every possession. If you look at the entire text, you see that the man came to Jesus and said "Look, I've done everything right! I'm a good guy!" But Jesus saw that greed was his real "god" and told him to sell everything in order to follow Him. He had to sell everything because that's what was holding him back.
My long-term struggle has never been greed. Mine has to do with adultery (pr0n). It's taken a lot of energy to rely on God enough to help me out, but thankfully He did. It's still a struggle for me to lust, and I'm letting God work with me on that.
With that context, does it make more sense that I'm still taking the Bible literally, while also not selling everything I own?
Depends how literally you'd like to take it, I suppose:
Adultery 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
IP: Logged
04:06 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Brennan: you are so embarrassingly self-righteous that you're precisely the kind of Christian to give other Christians a bad rap. Your prattle impresses no one and does nothing but alienate your audience, even your fellow Christians. I'm setting a Google Alert for "theBDub finally loses virginity" and waiting for it to trigger before I really care about anything else you have to say. Used to find it comical, now it's just annoying.
I'm not seeing that either in anything he wrote.. Maybe its just that truth word? He clearly said there is one truth, which cannot be denied. People just banter about what exactly it is.
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04:15 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43225 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Depends how literally you'd like to take it, I suppose:
Adultery 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Yeah, I didn't think you thought I meant everyhting was literal.
