quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: No, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and it's obvious to me that you have absolutely and totally no clue about European history (at all). I said that Holland was "essentially an economic superiority", I did NOT say that they "were the most superior country in the world" for a full 700 years, which is what you think I'm saying. This is your talent, you like to argue about anything and everything. You would argue with me that my name really doesn't have two Ds in it unless I could get 10 scientists to prove to you that my mom actually put two Ds on my birth certificate.

Brilliant, accuse me of having no clue about European history. How is it you know me again?

I'm not at all arguing for the sake of arguing but when you claim things such as "What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years" and don't recognize it as a stretch, then tough luck.

They are your words not mine so don't claim that I am misinterpreting them, I nowhere said that you claimed the Dutch "were the most superior country in the world". I am simply calling you on your EXACT statement.

You make, and have, made many such statements without backing them up. I don't know why it is wrong to ask you to prove them or at least admit that it may have been a slight error.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by newf: Brilliant, accuse me of having no clue about European history. How is it you know me again? I'm not at all arguing for the sake of arguing but when you claim things such as "What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years" and don't recognize it as a stretch, then tough luck. They are your words not mine so don't claim that I am misinterpreting them, I nowhere said that you claimed the Dutch "were the most superior country in the world". I am simply calling you on your EXACT statement. You make, and have, made many such statements without backing them up. I don't know why it is wrong to ask you to prove them or at least admit that it may have been a slight error.

What I said does not mean they were the most powerful country in the world. They were an economic superiority... not "THE" economic superiorty, but "an" economic superiority, which means one of.

What happened here is that you, again, read much more into what I'm saying than I actually said. Nothing I've said is untrue... as my quick links have proven. And seriously, I know you didn't even know a quarter of what I said.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: What I said does not mean they were the most powerful country in the world. They were an economic superiority... not "THE" economic superiorty, but "an" economic superiority, which means one of. What happened here is that you, again, read much more into what I'm saying than I actually said. Nothing I've said is untrue... as my quick links have proven. And seriously, I know you didn't even know a quarter of what I said.

Again I didn't read anything into what you said, it's written on here for anyone to read.

Didn't know a quarter of what you said? You must be quite an historical superiority then.

(You might be surprised at how much some Canadians know about Holland...May 5th ring any bells with you?)

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: This guy is no more sane than my great uncle Karl Jaspers... who was equally a psychopath...

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: ...the superior gene

So, was old Uncle Karl prone to rants, such as This and This?

Hmmm, ya gotta wonder.... the "superior gene" indeed.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by newf: Again I didn't read anything into what you said, it's written on here for anyone to read. Didn't know a quarter of what you said? You must be quite an historical superiority then. (You might be surprised at how much some Canadians know about Holland...May 5th ring any bells with you?)

I'm sure you know that Canada was not the only country who went into Holland and liberated them or fought the NAZIs in Holland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ration_Market_Garden


Market Garden is a real famous one... it was also one of the ones that the 101st Airborne was in as shown in Tom Hank's HBO miniseries (forget the name).

quote Originally posted by Patrick: So, was old Uncle Karl prone to rants, such as This and This? Hmmm, ya gotta wonder.... the "superior gene" indeed.

Great Uncle Jaspers was a psychopath philosopher that believed in the theory of Moral Subjectivism... and other crazy **** . Even though his theories make sense to a psycho, he actually believed that morality was OK depending upon the view of the person comitting the crime (like molesting a child, or killing a family member or something). I understand the point, but the fact that he actually believed it was "OK" is what really gets me.

Anyway, I'm proud that you guys have decided to make this thread about me... hahah... but let's let everyone else get back to the topic.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Anyway, I'm proud that you guys have decided to make this thread about me... hahah...

No, you did that all by yourself. Newf was just double-checking your "facts".

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm sure you know that Canada was not the only country who went into Holland and liberated them or fought the NAZIs in Holland?

Of course, I would think most people would know that Europe was liberated by many Allies however Canada and the Dutch have a special bond as related in the video.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Anyway, I'm proud that you guys have decided to make this thread about me... hahah... but let's let everyone else get back to the topic.

That's OK 82-T/A we already know you think everything is about you. It's good to dream. j/k

quote Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing. "God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience”

Why should this surprise anyone? Ever since Darwin and Marx did away with the need for God, Western civilization has been moving away from the tenets of Judeo-Christianity. The decline of Western civilization is a direct result of this attitude. If there is no God, there is no one we must answer to for our how we have lived. So what is the purpose or meaning of life? There isn't one.
There is, then, no reason to embrace any sort of moral conviction, there is no right or wrong. Lie to get ahead in business? Sure; why not? Everyone does it. Stay committed to one woman and raise children who will be assets to society? No; what is the point? Consider others and there needs? No; that's not my job, the government should do that. Now we are down to the " it's all about me and I don't care about anyone else " attitude so apparent in modern society. The results are obvious. There is no appreciation of beauty. Music is Lady Gaga or obscene, violent rap, so far from Bach and Beethoven as to be incomprehensible. Visual art is Mapplethorpe or Andre Serrano. Cinema is Tarantino. Degrading, ugly, glorifying the worst of our natures. Nothing which inspires; just ugly.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: " I attend the greatest University of all, and am still learning 65 years on. That University is called 'LIFE'. There is NO better teacher,or so I have discovered, if we listen '

Here I find a paradox. Of all the people who should have no trouble with Christianity, it should be you, Nick. Jeremiah 17:9 says " The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" You should understand that as well as anyone can. How many times in the last three years have you been lied to, cheated and abused by people like Pierre, by the ones who keyed your Jeep just because they thought it was funny? You should have no trouble seeing that people are basically wicked and only occasionally rise to do good. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this basic truth.The Germans who were guards at the concentration camps proved this. Not Nazi party members but everyday Germans who stood by watched the killing of 6 million people who enemies of Germany according to Hitler.

Stanley Milgram's experiment is even further proof that the Biblical appraisal is true. When we have no one to answer to, we simply are not good. Mother Teresa is not the norm.

Now, what is Christianity? I see two facets.
One, there is a righteous God who will judge men for their lives. But since we are fallen sinners, we cannot come into fellowship with Him. So God himself became a substitute for us, Jesus dying on the cross. Righteousness in Christ is availabe to anyone who asks for it.
Romans chapter 3:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Two, how do we live as Christians?
Matthew 22:35-40

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Everything else is peripheral. If we approach all of our actions with first asking, " Does this make me a better neighbor and make my community a better place?", we wouldn't spend any time asking, " Is this act ok?"


For more detailed analysis, see my forthcoming book What It All Means.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Here I find a paradox. Of all the people who should have no trouble with Christianity, it should be you, Nick. Jeremiah 17:9 says " The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" You should understand that as well as anyone can. How many times in the last three years have you been lied to, cheated and abused by people like Pierre, by the ones who keyed your Jeep just because they thought it was funny? You should have no trouble seeing that people are basically wicked and only occasionally rise to do good. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this basic truth.The Germans who were guards at the concentration camps proved this. Not Nazi party members but everyday Germans who stood by watched the killing of 6 million people who enemies of Germany according to Hitler. For more detailed analysis, see my forthcoming book What It All Means.

Fear not heybjorn...

Christianity is growing like crazy in China and India. Those are just facts... and the rate at which Christianity is growing in those two countries increases exponentially every single day.

" To thine own self be true". Simple Mike. I don't need to answer to anybody but myself, when my judgement is imposed totally and unequivocally with that creed as my guide. And by being true to myself, I WILL be true to others, as I shall judge their merit. THAT is MY right, IMHO, providing I set a standard for myself which is as near perfect as I can get. AM I perfect? NO way...but I KNOW where perfect IS, and I strive to aspire to that level.
And providing I continue to aspire to it with all my might, and IF there IS a GOD who sits in judgement on us all, then I doubt he would be petty enough to say "You arrived here as good as you could be...possibly as good as many who have arrived before you. However, since you didn't believe in ME, you may not enter my Kingdom'.
Personally, I rather think I did BETTER than those others, because I aspired to be, and succeeded at doing so, as good as is possible. BY MYSELF.
SO, when I die, and IF there is another Place we go, which I no longer believe at ALL, and GOD says 'no way' because of my previous comments above? Well then, I will tell GOD he is NOT a GOD I would respect at all, so do as you will with me'. He can't be two diametrically opposed things at once...not even GOD. And He is supposed to be forgiving, loving and fair,so I am told .

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Christianity is growing like crazy in China and India. Those are just facts... and the rate at which Christianity is growing in those two countries increases exponentially every single day.

Do I even need to bother???

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: " To thine own self be true". Simple Mike. I don't need to answer to anybody but myself, when my judgement is imposed totally and unequivocally with that creed as my guide. And by being true to myself, I WILL be true to others, as I shall judge their merit. THAT is MY right, IMHO, providing I set a standard for myself which is as near perfect as I can get. AM I perfect? NO way...but I KNOW where perfect IS, and I strive to aspire to that level. And providing I continue to aspire to it with all my might, and IF there IS a GOD who sits in judgement on us all, then I doubt he would be petty enough to say "You arrived here as good as you could be...possibly as good as many who have arrived before you. However, since you didn't believe in ME, you may not enter my Kingdom'. Personally, I rather think I did BETTER than those others, because I aspired to be, and succeeded at doing so, as good as is possible. BY MYSELF. SO, when I die, and IF there is another Place we go, which I no longer believe at ALL, and GOD says 'no way' because of my previous comments above? Well then, I will tell GOD he is NOT a GOD I would respect at all, so do as you will with me'. He can't be two diametrically opposed things at once...not even GOD. And He is supposed to be forgiving, loving and fair,so I am told .

Nick, with all due respect, you have sinned. You are not worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven without living for Jesus. Neither am I, or Patrick's Dad, or TK, or Todd, or Don, or Boonie, or Mother Theresa, or Hitler, or Wichita, or anyone. You may be "better" (What is better anyways?), but God is perfect and anything that is imperfect cannot enter His Kingdom.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Nick, with all due respect, you have sinned. You are not worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven without living for Jesus. Neither am I, or Patrick's Dad, or TK, or Todd, or Don, or Boonie, or Mother Theresa, or Hitler, or Wichita, or anyone. You may be "better" (What is better anyways?), but God is perfect and anything that is imperfect cannot enter His Kingdom.

Brandon, with all due respect, --STUFF IT......we are all sinners, we are all imperfect, and guess what??---we are human.......I grew up in the type of home you are preaching...forced to kneel on sticks and pray until ya cant stand.....beaten black-and-blue until ya cant sit and need a pillow on the chair, 8 years old and a priest tried to kiss me......I been there, I done that and your gawd-damn-god and his priests and his people can go frack themselves. Take the "sin", take the "pentinance"===and shove it where the sun dont shine. God, AND his people...can go to hell. "god" is not in charge of my life...I am, and if he dont like it, thats just tough.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Why should this surprise anyone? Ever since Darwin and Marx did away with the need for God, Western civilization has been moving away from the tenets of Judeo-Christianity. The decline of Western civilization is a direct result of this attitude. If there is no God, there is no one we must answer to for our how we have lived. So what is the purpose or meaning of life? There isn't one. There is, then, no reason to embrace any sort of moral conviction, there is no right or wrong. Lie to get ahead in business? Sure; why not? Everyone does it. Stay committed to one woman and raise children who will be assets to society? No; what is the point? Consider others and there needs? No; that's not my job, the government should do that. Now we are down to the " it's all about me and I don't care about anyone else " attitude so apparent in modern society. The results are obvious. There is no appreciation of beauty. Music is Lady Gaga or obscene, violent rap, so far from Bach and Beethoven as to be incomprehensible. Visual art is Mapplethorpe or Andre Serrano. Cinema is Tarantino. Degrading, ugly, glorifying the worst of our natures. Nothing which inspires; just ugly.

That is what is so crazy about the Christian thought. They assume they have the only ownership on morality and what our lives should be based on.

I've often times hear that there is some huge decline in Western Civilization because people are moving away from Christianity. I beg to differ completely, I think that what we have is a huge increase in morality than we did back a hundred years ago or more when most people subscribed to Christianity.

It was Christian thought that it was ok to whip black people and put them into slavery because they weren't really humans. Same way they treated Native Americans, it was all ok to kill them and relocate them because they were considered savages based on very popular Judeo-Christian thought.

Prostitution, senseless murders, cheats, thieves, drunkenness, children abandonment and incest and all were at much, much more higher rates under the Christian movement before Marx and Darwin.

There is no decline in Western Civilization, in a matter of fact, there has been a huge upward movement in Western Civilization, unmoral acts as you call it has significantly declined due to education and increase in living standards not because of people subscribing to any religion or if they are Christian.

If you say you are Christian, that doesn't mean your a moral person in my book. Only your character and acts make you a moral person and as we all know, our prison system is full of Christians who are evil people who committed heinous acts.

With the rapid decline of Christianity and religion in the Western World has actually increased morality.

82-T/A is boasting that Christianity is rising in India and China, that's because missionaries prey on the poor and illiterate in those countries which is going to cause serious problems. They don't need religion or Christianity, they need formal education.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Nick, with all due respect, you have sinned. You are not worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven without living for Jesus. Neither am I, or Patrick's Dad, or TK, or Todd, or Don, or Boonie, or Mother Theresa, or Hitler, or Wichita, or anyone. You may be "better" (What is better anyways?), but God is perfect and anything that is imperfect cannot enter His Kingdom.

Wait, which Todd? There are two of us here, and I fully plan on going to heaven.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: 82-T/A is boasting that Christianity is rising in India and China, that's because missionaries prey on the poor and illiterate in those countries which is going to cause serious problems. They don't need religion or Christianity, they need formal education.

On the contrary, of the many Indian people I know, their families whom have converted were all Telugu, and very affluent in their community (that means VERY VERY wealthy Wichita). I do think it's a shame that many of them are losing their religion / culture... but whatever it is... they are converting never the less. Some are converting to Islam, but no where near in the same frequency. That's a fight between Pakistan and India that goes loooong back. India wanted to remain Hindu or mostly inclusive, and the Muslims wanted their own seperate territory. Funny though, India kept the Taj Mahal. Overall, it's actually the wealthy who have converted to Christianity in India... not the poor. The poor are overwhelmingly Hindu... and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. In India... Christianity still only makes up about 3-4% of the population, but it grows exponentially every year. Just a few years ago, it was less than 1%.

In China though, Christians now make up close to 5% of the total population now, which is quite good considering that China's official religion is athiesm. But like I said, the Christian religion has grown nearly 1-.5% of the population almost every year (of course though, the population also increases every year). That's also people who are officially registered as Christian. There are other estimates that there's close to 10% of the population that's Christian, but are not sanctioned by the government so they won't admit that they are (lots of documentaries on Christianity in China)

If you want some real fun.... every South American country is between 85-95% Christian (mostly Catholic). You would have SOOO much fun in South America.

I love you Wichita...

I don't know what's more funny... the fact that you get so mad that Christianity is spreading, or how you evangelize your own religion of Athiesim.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: On the contrary, of the many Indian people I know, their families whom have converted were all Telugu, and very affluent in their community (that means VERY VERY wealthy Wichita). I do think it's a shame that many of them are losing their religion / culture... but whatever it is... they are converting never the less. Some are converting to Islam, but no where near in the same frequency. That's a fight between Pakistan and India that goes loooong back. India wanted to remain Hindu or mostly inclusive, and the Muslims wanted their own seperate territory. Funny though, India kept the Taj Mahal. Overall, it's actually the wealthy who have converted to Christianity in India... not the poor. The poor are overwhelmingly Hindu... and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. In India... Christianity still only makes up about 3-4% of the population, but it grows exponentially every year. Just a few years ago, it was less than 1%. In China though, Christians now make up close to 5% of the total population now, which is quite good considering that China's official religion is athiesm. But like I said, the Christian religion has grown nearly 1-.5% of the population almost every year (of course though, the population also increases every year). That's also people who are officially registered as Christian. There are other estimates that there's close to 10% of the population that's Christian, but are not sanctioned by the government so they won't admit that they are (lots of documentaries on Christianity in China) If you want some real fun.... every South American country is between 85-95% Christian (mostly Catholic). You would have SOOO much fun in South America. I love you Wichita... I don't know what's more funny... the fact that you get so mad that Christianity is spreading, or how you evangelize your own religion of Athiesim.

Atheism isn't a religion. I know many Christians say that it is to justify their disgust with it. I think some body here on PFF said it best that, "Not believing in God is a religion much like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

I don't care if people are Christian. It doesn't bother me. I'll I state are the facts and that there is no decline in Western Civilization due to the population rapidly moving away from religion and in particular Christianity and that Christians have no ownership to morality.

Sure, South America, Central America and Mexico are majority Catholic, but they also have high crime rates, high murder rates, high corruption rates and the like. If they are mostly Christian and your pride is swelling because of the numbers then why hasn't there been any changes in morality and standard of living in most of those places? Why is it that many South Americans, Central Americans and Mexicans want to come to the USA? Why isn't your God helping them?

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Atheism isn't a religion. I know many Christians say that it is to justify their disgust with it. I think some body here on PFF said it best that, "Not believing in God is a religion much like not collecting stamps is a hobby." I don't care if people are Christian. It doesn't bother me. I'll I state are the facts and that there is no decline in Western Civilization due to the population rapidly moving away from religion and in particular Christianity and that Christians have no ownership to morality. Sure, South America, Central America and Mexico are majority Catholic, but they also have high crime rates, high murder rates, high corruption rates and the like. If they are mostly Christian and your pride is swelling because of the numbers then why hasn't there been any changes in morality and standard of living in most of those places? Why is it that many South Americans, Central Americans and Mexicans want to come to the USA? Why isn't your God helping them?

Atheism is a belief, just like Christianity is. Stamp collecting is not a belief, it is a hobby. Sure Atheism can be just as much a hobby for some as Christianity and stamp collecting is... but a belief, which Atheism is to you, is just as much a belief to those of us who are Christian. Sorry to destroy that quote...

How can you have free will, but at the same time have a God that controls everything? We have free will, and as such, we are free to do whatever it is that we are going to do. I'm sure this would make sense to you?

You must get along really well with your neighbors out there in Kansas... hahah... not being mean here, but I can just imagine.

It's doesn't matter if we have free will or not. We can't perceive it any other way unless one is total disconnected from reality.

The religion/hobby statement is a comparative example and it's totally valid for the purpose of making a distinct point. Being an atheist means you aren't doing something and are "without." The definition of religion itself excludes using it to define atheism (or science) as a religion. There is no logical or rational way to define either as a religion.

So people believe in the supernatural and some don't. What's the argument.

quote Originally posted by TK: It's doesn't matter if we have free will or not. We can't perceive it any other way unless one is total disconnected from reality. The religion/hobby statement is a comparative example and it's totally valid for the purpose of making a distinct point. Being an atheist means you aren't doing something and are "without." The definition of religion itself excludes using it to define atheism (or science) as a religion. There is no logical or rational way to define either as a religion. So people believe in the supernatural and some don't. What's the argument.

The actions of religious atheists like Wichita are the very same actions that evangelical Baptists use when they try to teach people what the "right answer is."

What's the argument?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The actions of religious atheists like Wichita are the very same actions that evangelical Baptists use when they try to teach people what the "right answer is." What's the argument?

Jesus was merely a man and not the son of God. That is a fact. Some can choose to ignore that and believe this man was and worship the person as a God. That's fine. In the grand theme of things, you can worship, pray or believe what ever you want. We all will face the same fate in the end and that is that we all will die. So what you believe doesn't really matter or it doesn't give you a leg up on anybody at all.

What I was questioning is your perception (most of it indoctrinated to you by some pastor) that Western Civilization is becoming more immoral because more people are turning away from Christianity. That is not a fact. So I'm just calling you out on that.

But I have no problem with Christianity at all. In fact, I'll be going to evening mass today. I attend church, my children go to Catholic Schools. So you got me all wrong. You probably have the perception that people who don't believe in God hate people that do and try to destroy the institutions of religion. We are the boogie man in your mind. But you are wrong. Many Atheist/Agnostics go to church, marry in the church, educated in religious schools, send their children to be educated in religious schools, we have many friends that are very religious. We are good people. Just because we don't believe in the Christian God or Jesus as the son of God or the presence of a Holy Ghost doesn't make us demons. In a matter of fact, people who are atheist/agnostics tithe in greater numbers than those who are faithfully religious.

Religion doesn't make me who I am. Martin Luther King best said that you judge a man by the content of their character. Believing in Christianity and the Jesus God does not mean anything or show the content of ones character. Yes, many Christians believe that just being Christian automatically makes you a better person and a moral one and in fact you reign supreme over everybody else in morality and this is in fact a big lie. Being Christian means that you believe in the Jesus God and that's it. I'm not Christian because I don't believe in the Jesus God, but I attend a Christian Church, because like many people who do, I enjoy the communal gathering. And that is what this whole thread was about. The Dutch pastor was just saying that you don't have to believe in the Jesus God in order to have a communal gathering to discuss Biblical and Christian topics.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Jesus was merely a man and not the son of God. That is a fact. Some can choose to ignore that and believe this man was and worship the person as a God. That's fine. In the grand theme of things, you can worship, pray or believe what ever you want. We all will face the same fate in the end and that is that we all will die. So what you believe doesn't really matter or it doesn't give you a leg up on anybody at all. What I was questioning is your perception (most of it indoctrinated to you by some pastor) that Western Civilization is becoming more immoral because more people are turning away from Christianity. That is not a fact. So I'm just calling you out on that.

Ok, there is your problem, and that's what I thought.

1 - I believe everyone goes to heaven, regardless of what you do. So "it doesn't give you a leg up on anybody at all."

2 - No where did I say, anywhere, ever, that Western Europe is on decline because of lack of religion. What "I" said is that Western Europe is on the decline because of advanced socialism (which I think you also agree with, right?), and the lack of religion is merely a symptom of advanced socialism.


So.... ?

And one other thing... why on earth would you go to church if you don't believe in God? I can't possibly think of a more huge waste of time??? If you don't believe in God, wouldn't you rather spend your time doing something else than wasting it in a church? Don't mean to be a dick here... but that's kind of stupid. Either you're dumb, or you're lying.

EDIT: I probably won't get a response to this. This wouldn't be hte first time you've made these claims about things I've said. If you look at all my posts above going back and forth with Newf and Nick... it's all about Socialism. There's only one paragraph in there that I even talk about religion, and it's to COUNTER the argument and suggest that the problem with Europe is Socialism, and that lack of religion is a RESULT of socialism... not the other way around.

You ALWAYS do this... which leads me to believe you're totally lying about sending your kids to Catholic school, or that you waste your time in Church (nuts?) when you don't even believe in it. It's obvious to me that YOU believe that everyone who believes in God, believes in Creationism, and is non-denominational or evangelical. Could not be further from the truth... I am none of those. I am old-school Roman Catholic... I don't evangelize, I believe everyone goes to heaven. I also believe in Evolution. PLEASE stop lumping me into your ideology you have about the entire world. Evangelicals make up the very minority of the Christian faith... but they make the news much more than everyone else because it's more exciting news, and they KNOW it makes people like you angry.

You're a nut dude... stop being an prophet.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The actions of religious atheists like Wichita are the very same actions that evangelical Baptists use when they try to teach people what the "right answer is." What's the argument?

I totally disagree. He is just being VERY vocal. Sure, religious people are also sometimes very vocal but there is nothing "religious" about his or their style. It's the same as some religious people make threatening statements. It's strong and sometime shocking. Yeah, people are starting to push back and it's a long time coming. "Whatever" only goes so far.

We all deal with people that come into a discussion with guns blazing. You can believe the atheist's position and methods are "religious" but they are not. It's drawing a line and not staying quiet.

What about the atheists out there that say nothing? You don't notice them. Are they "religious"? I prefer to keep the definition of "religious" as it has been for dang long time and not attempt to redefine it for the purpose of rationalizing one's beliefs.

Atheists don't know what the right answer is, they just know that's not the right answer and it's based on tons of knowledge and research. There is nothing to claim that is right only what is not right.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by TK: I totally disagree. He is just being VERY vocal. Sure, religious people are also sometimes very vocal but there is nothing "religious" about his or their style. It's the same as some religious people make threatening statements. It's strong and sometime shocking. Yeah, people are starting to push back and it's a long time coming. "Whatever" only goes so far. We all deal with people that come into a discussion with guns blazing. You can believe the atheist's position and methods are "religious" but they are not. It's drawing a line and not staying quiet. What about the atheists out there that say nothing? You don't notice them. Are they "religious"? I prefer to keep the definition of "religious" as it has been for dang long time and not attempt to redefine it for the purpose of rationalizing one's beliefs. Atheists don't know what the right answer is, they just know that's not the right answer and it's based on tons of knowledge and research. There is nothing to claim that is right only what is not right.

Pretty sure you're clouding it here.

Agnostics are people who don't know what the answer is but believe there is something. Athiests believe they KNOW the answer and that answer is that NO god exists.


I guess I can't say this thread wasn't about religion, but I still believe the downfall of Europe has been because of advanced socialism, and the lack of religion is merely a result of a move towards socialism. What do you believe? Do you like socialism?

EDIT: I think we're both arguing about "nothing." For one, I don't care if you (or Wichita) or anyone else believs in God. I personally believe that everyone goes to heaven, even Hitler, so I think it doesn't matter what anyone believes. I'm not trying to convert you, and am totally cool with what you believe. My fight here is against socialism... because I believe when people all become victims, a country fails, and then a dictator takes over, and then socialism quickly turns to communism and the country collapses. This has happened hundreds of times in the world, over many many decades. There has NEVER been a time in history however where a "Free Market Republic" has allowed a corporation to take over the world.

How many more times does socialism have to fail before people realize that going too far down that direction will destroy our country?

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Pretty sure you're clouding it here. Agnostics are people who don't know what the answer is but believe there is something. Athiests believe they KNOW the answer and that answer is that NO god exists. I guess I can't say this thread wasn't about religion, but I still believe the downfall of Europe has been because of advanced socialism, and the lack of religion is merely a result of a move towards socialism. What do you believe? Do you like socialism? EDIT: I think we're both arguing about "nothing." For one, I don't care if you (or Wichita) or anyone else believs in God. I personally believe that everyone goes to heaven, even Hitler, so I think it doesn't matter what anyone believes. I'm not trying to convert you, and am totally cool with what you believe. My fight here is against socialism... because I believe when people all become victims, a country fails, and then a dictator takes over, and then socialism quickly turns to communism and the country collapses. This has happened hundreds of times in the world, over many many decades. There has NEVER been a time in history however where a "Free Market Republic" has allowed a corporation to take over the world. How many more times does socialism have to fail before people realize that going too far down that direction will destroy our country?

I would think most people here would disagree with total socialism however what countries do you consider socialist?

One could argue that the most successful countries in the world have long "moved toward socialism" and are more succesful for it. Almost every country has some kind of "socialism". Just throwing that word out there to fear and hate is like saying all Muslims are terrorists. I tend to agree with one of your usual basic premises, that when a country goes too far towards Socialism it's dangerous however I think the same thing about Capatalism, a mix of both is ideal IMO but how much of each is dependant on many many factors.

As for believing everyone goes to heaven, and some of your other posted religious beliefs, let me first say I totally respect whatever you believe but there are many that would say you are not a "real" Christian as evidenced on here when discussing the beliefs of many other Christians.

quote Originally posted by newf: I would think most people here would disagree with total socialism however what countries do you consider socialist? One could argue that the most successful countries in the world have long "moved toward socialism" and are more succesful for it. Almost every country has some kind of "socialism". Just throwing that word out there to fear and hate is like saying all Muslims are terrorists. I tend to agree with one of your usual basic premises, that when a country goes too far towards Socialism it's dangerous however I think the same thing about Capatalism, a mix of both is ideal IMO but how much of each is dependant on many many factors.

Well... we have never seen history of a country that has gone too far towards capitalism. We've never seen a country fail because they had too much capitalism. If you can name one country that has failed because of too much capitalism, I would really, genuinely be shocked. On the contrary, there are many, MANY countries which HAVE failed due to socialism. Socialism leads to communism, invariably because people tend to stop thinking for themselves and actively seek the government to solve their problems for them. There are soo many, that I could probably go on for weeks mentioning them.

My favorite comparisons are North and South Korea, and former East and West Germany. Then you take for example China... who has long been communist, but the more they head towards capitalism, the more successful they become.

The problem with socialism is that it becomes a huge drain. The worse the economy gets, the worse socialism gets. The worse socialism gets, the worse the economy gets.

The more social programs exist, the more people will sign up for them (costs increase). As costs increase, the government starts to need and require more money. As more money is required, the government has to increase taxes. As taxes increase, corporations are forced to offer less pay. As people get less pay, they begin to utilize these social services even more and more. As more and more people use them, the cost goes up, and either taxes go up, or a country begins increasing more and more debt. When a recession hits... it compounds exponentially... as you see in the US now. The rate at which our debt is accruing now is far higher than it was under the previous administration during specific points where the economy and employment rate was better. That is because there is less money coming in, and FAR FAR more people using these resources.

Such is the human condition, people begin to rely on these programs... rather than to their own devices. Fewer and fewer people save money. The savings rate in the US is currently at 3% now. Back in the 80s... it was closer to 10-15%.

These programs can be good... but we HAVE to play favorites, and we have to be able to cut them when needed. For example... people who use drugs, should not be on them. Too much risk... how many people who use drugs and then get on welfare will acutally use all of that money responsibly? Probably none??? Second, we need to have time limits... we need to say, you've got 6 months, and then you're cut off. Sucks... it really does... maybe the community will start to take more responsibility? But then again, socialism doesn't do that... advanced socialism teaches each generation that it's the government's responsibility, not that we should care for eachother in our community.

In this time of major debt in the US, we need to make the hard decisions that will invariably put people out on the street, cut defense spending where it's not critical at the moment in time (cut all unnecessary programs), and we need to cut funding bills, and charity / bribes to other countries.

But it's rare that people do that. Almost all the riots that take place in Europe right now have to do with people fighting because they "want their benefits." If the government never offered those to begin with, these people wouldn't be rioting, and the majority of them would probably all have resorted to their own devices, their own savings.

quote Originally posted by newf:As for believing everyone goes to heaven, and some of your other posted religious beliefs, let me first say I totally respect whatever you believe but there are many that would say you are not a "real" Christian as evidenced on here when discussing the beliefs of many other Christians.

Sure they would, but what would I care?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Well... we have never seen history of a country that has gone too far towards capitalism. We've never seen a country fail because they had too much capitalism. If you can name one country that has failed because of too much capitalism, I would really, genuinely be shocked.

Iceland comes to mind.

Edit: As for the rest of your banter I'll assume it's just your beliefs of Socialism, not actual fact.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by newf: Iceland comes to mind. Edit: As for the rest of your banter I'll assume it's just your beliefs of Socialism, not actual fact.

Honestly, it does infuriate me that you pretend to be sincere, ask a question, and then when I spend a lot of time responding, you totally ignore it.

Not trying to be a dick here, but I think I need to not respond to your questions anymore.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Honestly, it does infuriate me that you pretend to be sincere, ask a question, and then when I spend a lot of time responding, you totally ignore it. Not trying to be a dick here, but I think I need to not respond to your questions anymore.

Ummm OK, did you want me to take all your assertions as fact because I won't.

I can debate all day if you like and show examples of how things are far more complex than just saying things like

quote Socialism leads to communism, invariably because people tend to stop thinking for themselves and actively seek the government to solve their problems for them. There are soo many, that I could probably go on for weeks mentioning them.

or

quote If the government never offered those to begin with, these people wouldn't be rioting, and the majority of them would probably all have resorted to their own devices, their own savings.

Just because you believe it doesn't make it true man, and simplifying issues like a countries "success" in terms of far socialism or far capatalism is near impossible, countries succeed and fail for many many reasons IMO.

Also I don't appreciate being accused of not being sincere, I didn't ignore anything you said but you may want to realize a lot of what you type is your opinion and not based on fact such as this statement a couple of posts ago.

quote the rate at which Christianity is growing in those two countries increases exponentially every single day.

You certainly have the right not to respond but please don't expect me to stop pointing out statements that are obviously false such as that one.

quote Originally posted by newf: Just because you believe it doesn't make it true man, and simplifying issues like a countries "success" in terms of far socialism or far capatalism is near impossible, countries succeed and fail for many many reasons IMO. Also I don't appreciate being accused of not being sincere, I didn't ignore anything you said but you may want to realize a lot of what you type is your opinion and not based on fact such as this statement a couple of posts ago.

Look... Newf... you never have anything to add... your argument is always that "I am wrong."

You can't have a discussion with someone who can't, or WILL NOT back up their own claims.

I've never swayed you in any discussion, nor have I ever even remotely made you "think" about anything that I've suggested. No matter how many links I send to you, or proof I send to you, it's not good enough. You expect a team of crack scientists and 1000s of peer reviewed articles, before you'll even look at something that counters your own views, yet your own views are often based on nothing but pure emotion. I can't have a discussion with someone like that.

Look, I'll still buy you a beer and invite you to a BBQ and shoot the **** with you, but I really cannot have political discussions with you because I really feel as though you are incapable of proper debate.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Not trying to be a dick here, but I think I need to not respond to your questions anymore.

You don't have to try to be a dick. You are one.

You asked why I go to church. Why does anybody go to church? Why are there more churches than there are gas stations? I guess we don't need churches at all. Regardless of what religion it is, right? Because that just makes everybody that attends church stupid and a complete waste of time.

I already answered the reason in an earlier post on this thread.

And no! I don't think you love me. And no, there is no heaven.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Look... Newf... you never have anything to add... your argument is always that "I am wrong." You can't have a discussion with someone who can't, or WILL NOT back up their own claims. I've never swayed you in any discussion, nor have I ever even remotely made you "think" about anything that I've suggested. No matter how many links I send to you, or proof I send to you, it's not good enough. You expect a team of crack scientists and 1000s of peer reviewed articles, before you'll even look at something that counters your own views, yet your own views are often based on nothing but pure emotion. I can't have a discussion with someone like that. Look, I'll still buy you a beer and invite you to a BBQ and shoot the **** with you, but I really cannot have political discussions with you because I really feel as though you are incapable of proper debate.

So if I call you on a statement of obvious bullshit that you can't back up you accuse me of being unfair or not backing up MY claims?

Then insult me, say I don't "think" about things, say my views are based on pure emotion, and I'm incapable of debate?
I think you need to look in the mirror about those claims there big guy.

As for asking me to back up something I've said, feel free to ask... if I can't I will gladly admit it but please don't just accuse me of tactics or statements I've never made.

I don't care that you talk out of your ass (some of it may be loosely based in truth, and you might actually believe some of it) but don't expect to come on here (an open forum) and not have some of the BS challenged.
Like I said believe whatever it is you want, doesn't bother me, but don't try to pass off your opinion as truth.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: There is no decline in Western Civilization,

So you missed the so-called debt ceiling debate in Washington? Do you get to see the Princess riding around there in Wonderland where you live?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: You don't have to try to be a dick. You are one. You asked why I go to church. Why does anybody go to church? Why is there more churches then there are gas stations? I guess we don't need churches at all. Regardless of what religion it is, right? Because that just makes everybody that attends church stupid and a complete waste of time. I already answered the reason in an earlier post on this thread. And no! I don't think you love me. And no, there is no heaven.

This conversation is much more important to you than it is to me. You have much more red than I do in the status bar... I'm not the dick here.

quote Originally posted by newf: So if I call you on a statement of obvious bullshit that you can't back up you accuse me of being unfair or not backing up MY claims? Then insult me, say I don't "think" about things, say my views are based on pure emotion, and I'm incapable of debate? I think you need to look in the mirror about those claims there big guy. As for asking me to back up something I've said, feel free to ask... if I can't I will gladly admit it but please don't just accuse me of tactics or statements I've never made. I don't care that you talk out of your ass (some of it may be loosely based in truth, and you might actually believe some of it) but don't expect to come on here (an open forum) and not have some of the BS challenged. Like I said believe whatever it is you want, doesn't bother me, but don't try to pass off your opinion as truth.

Newf, a DEBATE is when you COUNTER a statement from someone with a different statement / view-point. But you don't do that, you just say that I'm wrong... and you leave it at that.

How is that a debate? You then ask me to try to prove everything I say. Look Newf, you're set in your ways... you don't offer anything to the table in a discussion on some specific topics, like socialism for example, or at least very rarely do. Why should I invest the time and effort into trying to prove everything I say to ONE person who already has their mind made up for life? Just telling someone they're wrong, is not having a debate, that's being argumentative.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Really? You made it personal somewhat by trying to call me out on a separate thread. That is being a dick. But that's alright. It's your headache.

Yeah! Saying the truth and not sugar coating it will get you some red. Religion and Politics will get you some red. I don't worry about it. I also have more than a 100 more members rating me than you. So each their own.

Good luck in heaven. Let me know how big the angels titties are and don't forget to haunt me too.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Really? You made it personal somewhat by trying to call me out on a separate thread. That is being a dick. But that's alright. It's your headache. Yeah! Saying the truth and not sugar coating it will get you some red. Religion and Politics will get you some red. I don't worry about it. I also have more than a 100 more members rating me than you. So each their own. Good luck in heaven. Let me know how big the angels titties are and don't forget to haunt me too.

What thread are you talking about? Are you talking about the Jesus figurine? Honestly... right-hand-to-God... I did that because I thought it would be funny. You know... how kids in school kind of rib on eachother in a friendly way? I wasn't aware that you took that negatively? If i'm honest, I think you're being a bit too sensitive if that bothered you. I'd be honored if someone created a whole new thread about me with a joke... different strokes, different folks, I suppose.


EDIT: Spelling.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Newf, a DEBATE is when you COUNTER a statement from someone with a different statement / view-point. But you don't do that, you just say that I'm wrong... and you leave it at that. How is that a debate? You then ask me to try to prove everything I say. Look Newf, you're set in your ways... you don't offer anything to the table in a discussion on some specific topics, like socialism for example, or at least very rarely do. Why should I invest the time and effort into trying to prove everything I say to ONE person who already has their mind made up for life? Just telling someone they're wrong, is not having a debate, that's being argumentative.

I often point out your bullshit statements, yes. You don't seem to want to correct them or even admit they are BS and that's fine I guess. I countered lots of your statements (speaking of ignoring).

I see we're back to assuming things about me, I have my mind made up, am set in my ways and don't know what a debate is. If you only knew...

Anyways you can deflect, accuse and spin as much as you want but like I said don't expect to just throw out bullshit statements and not be called on them on a public forum.

quote Originally posted by newf: I often point out your bullshit statements, yes. You don't seem to want to correct them or even admit they are BS and that's fine I guess. I countered lots of your statements (speaking of ignoring). I see we're back to assuming things about me, I have my mind made up, am set in my ways and don't know what a debate is. If you only knew... Anyways you can deflect, accuse and spin as much as you want but like I said don't expect to just throw out bullshit statements and not be called on them on a public forum.

Again... all you do is tell me that I'm wrong. You VERY RARELY offer alternate views, you just say I'm wrong. That is arguing, not debating. I don't LIKE or WANT to argue with you. I want to DEBATE with you.

We can go around and around like this forever, but that's your thing man, you don't offer different views, you just say I'm wrong. Sorry if socialism is so upsetting to you. If it was so awesome, would we even be discussing it? There's obviously problems with it... learn to deal with it.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Again... all you do is tell me that I'm wrong. You VERY RARELY offer alternate views, you just say I'm wrong. That is arguing, not debating. I don't LIKE or WANT to argue with you. I want to DEBATE with you. We can go around and around like this forever, but that's your thing man, you don't offer different views, you just say I'm wrong. Sorry if socialism is so upsetting to you. If it was so awesome, would we even be discussing it? There's obviously problems with it... learn to deal with it.

Prime example of you missing what I say and accusing others of your own shortcomings (seems socialism is more upsetting to you ). I never anywhere said what you think is wrong, you make false statements and have opinions that I sometimes think are off the wall but you are welcome to think anything you want. Facts and your beliefs are not the same however.

Sorry if you don't like being called on your ass talking, guess with the rate of Christianity expanding exponentionally everyday it won't be long until we are all on the same page anyways.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-07-2011).]