many christian sub-cults denigrate other sub-cults as non-christian
nothing new the gnostic fought the followers Arianism as much as cat-lickers
the only reason the cat-lickers got power is by emperors pick well his mom's really
then they split in two east and west
the western church murdered over a million cathars in the 1200's before
luther started the real messy wars between christians

growing up in the 50's myself I heard alot of hate from christian sub-cults
about other christian sub-cults on obscure points of dogma
and that was between main line protestants never mind the ones
that they all hated like morman or 7day or snake-handlers
and every last one hated the cat-lickers most of all
from the snake-handlers down to the protestant mainline

quote Originally posted by TK: The Old and New Testament are either 100% the word of a god or they are not.

I suspect they're not then.

A collecton of short stories penned by men, interpreted by men, re-worked by men, promoted by men. I see no evidence of any involvement by a "god".

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: ... I'm not trying to belittle you, but...for a twenty year old trying to tell a 65 year old that he is WRONG, is the biggest fault your 'religion' suffers ,again in my humble opinion. ...

Hey, Nick, Brennan + me = You + R1.

To address a couple of things here, which seem to be becoming themes:

1 Timothy 4:12: Let no one look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in your speech, conduct, love, faithfulness, and purity.

Apparently, this was a problem 2000 years ago, as well. Timothy may not have even been 20 at the time, and Paul, a Pharisee by training and now, in his 60s an Apostle, found that his spiritual "son" was having issues.... Age, I find, tempers brashness, but I've also found that, if you beat your head against a wall, no matter what you think of the wall, it's existence is unchanged. Only one of you will be bruised.

Also:

Matthew 12:8 - 13: For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” Then Jesus left that place and entered their synagogue. A man was there who had a withered hand. And they asked Jesus, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” so that they could accuse him. He said to them, “Would not any one of you, if he had one sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and it was restored, as healthy as the other.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, which He did, and, in His death and resurrection, changed the relationship between God and Man. We are no longer servants, but heirs, assuming that we have accepted the basis for that relationship. We do (or do not do) this of our own will. These are entirely special to Christianity, for no other faith offers its greatest Truths and Treasure up front with only acceptance of the gift of Grace by Faith its requirement. There are no new laws, there are no 100 daily prayers, there is no pilgrimage, there is no other requirement.

O/T, If Jesus is not divine, indeed, if there is no Divine, then it is not Christianity. "Christ" is "Messiah" and Messiah is one who delivers. Without God there is nowhere to deliver to, and, if no God, then no Devil/Satan/Mephistopheles/100 other names, and no Hell for him to be relegated to, and, therefore, nothing to be delivered from. So let this "religious leader" preach "good will to men then you die," but be intellectually honest and call it something else.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I suspect they're not then. A collecton of short stories penned by men, interpreted by men, re-worked by men, promoted by men. I see no evidence of any involvement by a "god".

Can you explain, then, why fragments and codexes with tens or hundreds of years of age between them all say the same thing? And why most of our English translations follow the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to the limits of our language?

Are there any books from antiquity so vetted, and yet so accurate? Can we be sure that Plato's Republic is so accurately translated as to be honest to the original?

No other book has suffered the scrutiny from complimentary and critical sources over centuries, yet continues, largely unchanged, to this day.

but they donot say exactly the same things
there are long and short ending to several gospels

and while there are old copys of the old T
the oldest jewish version is like 1100ace for a complete work
and only fragments of the older stuff

and in a context scholars can debate the meaning of one word

example used in this thread
a camel thru the eye of a needle
should have said camel's rope/hawser thru the eye of the needle
the whole too big to go where small things go point is lost
hawser willnot go thru but a thread will
nobody would try to put a camel thru a needles eye
it is simply a error

A simple example of how word of mouth can get corrupted, distorted, and end up being so FAR from the original message, as to have become meaningless
On the battlefields of the Somme, in the early 40's, a field commander sent a message to be passed down the frontline by word of mouth, to his commander of forces behind the front line. It was simple and succinct:
" Send up reinforcements, we are going to advance".
Imagine the force commander's surprise when the final soldier passed on the message,450 men later, which had become:
" Send up three and fourpence, we are going to a dance".
Who's fault that it became corrupted? The Field commander's. Why? Because he believed in Man being able to pass a message on without changing it, albeit innocently
Of course, had the commander been wise enough to go along the line and intercept the message every now and then, he could have corrected the message each time. But then...He might just as well have delivered the message himself by walking to the force commander and telling him face to face. Why hasn't the Christian Field Commander done just that? Because, IMHO, Jesus WAS Human, and I don't believe in reincarnation. He CAN'T come back, and HAD to use the human chain message...and all its evident fallability.
Just imagine if David Blaine could go back in time, with all his illusions available to him. We might be worshipping HIM, instead of Jesus . The only real difference, and the most CRITICAL one between them would be Blaine does it for personal advancement/ reward/Fame, and Jesus preached his Word for the good of Man ONLY.
I do believe Jesus existed I admire his philosophies and Word as a wonderful guide for us to use to live our lives productively and in harmony.

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: ...Why hasn't the Christian Field Commander done just that? Because, IMHO, Jesus WAS Human, and I don't believe in reincarnation. He CAN'T come back, and HAD to use the human chain message...and all its evident fallability. ... I do believe Jesus existed I admire his philosophies and Word as a wonderful guide for us to use to live our lives productively and in harmony.

If the military Field Commander had just written it down....

John 8:52-59: Then the Judeans responded, “Now we know you’re possessed by a demon! Both Abraham and the prophets died, and yet you say, ‘If anyone obeys my teaching, he will never experience death.’ You aren’t greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died too! Who do you claim to be?” Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory is worthless. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you people say, ‘He is our God.’ Yet you do not know him, but I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him, and I obey his teaching. Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Then the Judeans replied, “You are not yet fifty years old! Have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!” Then they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out from the temple area.

Jesus very plainly said that He is God. The Judeans - in this story, the religious leaders of the people - understood what He was saying, which is why they tried to stone Him for blasphemy. You are absolutely correct that His ministry was not, as David Blaine's, for His own glorification, but to further the Kingdom of God.

John 6:48-69: I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that a person may eat from it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Then the Jews who were hostile to Jesus began to argue with one another, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood resides in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so the one who consumes me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven; it is not like the bread your ancestors ate, but then later died. The one who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples, when they heard these things, said, “This is a difficult saying! Who can understand it?” When Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining about this, he said to them, “Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had already known from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) So Jesus added, “Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come.”

After this many of his disciples quit following him and did not accompany him any longer. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You don’t want to go away too, do you?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God!”

Many of His followers left after this teaching. He did not speak figuratively, but they did not understand what He meant His body and blood to be, just as the woman at the well did not, at first, understand what water Jesus offered to her.

Just as in rayb's example, too many codexes and fragments have it the way it is written in English, that it is easier for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle than a rich man to find the kingdom. Perhaps He referred to a rope made of camel hair used to secure boats, which would still be difficult to thread through a sewing needle.

Probably not. This wouldn't have been the first time that Jesus "overkilled" the example:

Luke 6:42: How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while you yourself don’t see the beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Some translations say "log" instead of "beam." Still, how can a beam of wood fit in a human eye?

One also has to understand the context - Jesus was talking to Jewish people. Being one, I can say that Jews see things differently; it's cultural, even today, thousands of years removed. The Talmud - a book written by men - refers to "an elephant passing through the eye of a needle." It is suggested that Jesus used a camel, as it was the largest animal commonly seen in Israel, while the Talmudic Rabbis used an elephant, the largest animal commonly seen in Babylon. Both are used to demonstrate impossibility. No problem exists, to me, in the texts.

Back to Jesus's divinity. He said that He is God. As Lewis put it, He was A) a liar, B) a lunatic or C) who He said that He is. If A) or B), then He wasn't a very good teacher, either.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: This whole story is really sad. What they talk about isn't Christianity, it's more of the New-Age thought that has been gaining a lot of steam in America. You don't have to believe in Jesus, or that He was resurrected, true... but if you don't, you won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes, I know, Wichita and others will quote this and tell me how I'm an idiot to believe in such fairy tales, but that's not my point. In order to be a Christian, you must follow Christ and believe He died and resurrected for you. What this man talks about really has very little to do with Christianity.

On the contrary my young friend...

In America, Christianity is growing more and more in the United States. Our growing progressive philosophy comes with the idea that we don't want to insult others with our own views. As such, the people who dislike religion get much more voice than they probably should as they are in the OVERWHELMING minority. On the flip side, the overwhelming majority of America is religious. Blacks, and Hispanics are over 90% Christian. As a matter of fact, all the Latino/a and Hispanic immigrants from South and Central America are VERY VERY religious. Ever been to South Florida (I know you haven't)... there's a church on every single corner. Cuban, Argentine, and Brazillian immigrants are EXTREMELY passionate about Christianity.

The only reason why your perception that America is in a Religious decline is because it makes for great news. You're in Missouri... not a lot of athiests there. It would be pretty borning if the news had a newsflash that "OMG... someone is religious, and did something religious..." but when an athiest does something, it makes news because they know it will be shocking.

And more to the contrary... the ENTIRE population of Holland converts to Christianity every single year in China. The last stats that I read showed that 1-2% of China's population converts to Christianity every year.


Now, in Europe... people have become less and less religious. People will get mad at my views on this, but I truly believe it is the concept of advanced socialism that has caused this. The ideology in Europe continues to grow the concept that it's all about "ME." That's not to say that trying to achieve success in America isn't important, but more and more people in Europe are less concerned with their community and more concerned about what they can get out of it. The idea of socialism destroys personal success and the desire to strive for success. It's become more a concept of what I deserve and what my fair share of the Obama stash is. Most traditions have deteriorated... as a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of my cousins aren't married, but are in exclusive relationships with children. Only a few of them have actually bothered to get married because their parents have insisted as such.

You can see what kind of detrimental effect this has had on Holland. Just take a look at their history over the past 100 years. They were an economic powerhouse. Now... what do they have? They've been quicker on the decline than nearly any other country in Europe. The sheer fact that they aren't sharing lockers with Greece, Ireland, and soon Spain, is because they had such vast assets just 20 years ago. They've lost everything... ABN AMRO, KLM. Unilever was a major Dutch corporation and they had to sell a 50% holding to British investors. Phillips is another one... they had to merge with Magnovox, and the Dutch don't even buy their own products anymore. They still have Shell and Heineken (Grolsh / Amstel)... but all of those are "vices."

So... when a Dutch person comes up with some new "theory" as to how the world should be... I tell them to go **** themselves and look at what they've done to their own country, and how they've ruined what their forefathers built over the past 50 years. The Dutch today are a former shadow of what their grandfathers were.

This guy is no more sane than my great uncle Karl Jaspers... who was equally a psychopath...

Todd, the 'decline' in The Netherlands is NOT due to any religious or Socialist dogma, in my experience, and opinion. It is almost entirely down to their 'Colonialism' from the middle and later years of the 17th/18th/19th centuries into 'poor' third-World' countries. They were like the honeypot to flies for those inhabitants of their colonies, in the recent (40-50 years), and because they ALL subsequently held Dutch passports, the resulting invasion of people who just didn't have a CLUE how to adapt, and work, in their new motherland, and quite frankly didn't WANT to work (because they didn't work in their native countries ), sucked their Social Security coffers dry, and didn't put a PENNY back in.
The same applies to the UK
Nick

pat JC said [mostly] he was the son of man
I strongly suspect the son of god is later spin by others mostly saul/paul and his new cult

then there is the problem of bible reported events at the time of his death
earthquakes darkness at mid-afternoon and the dead rising up and walking the city
all that but nobody noticed or reported or recorded any such magic events outside of the bible
events that would make a hollywood blockbuster plot were not noticed
and this by a roman culture that thought such events were signs from the gods
and recorded many other signs of far lessor note then dead people walking around a city
that is real hard to miss

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

IMHO, people expect entertainment nowadays.

The solemn church service is being replaced by "feel good" entertainment. If a few "add ons" to the basic Christian tenets are needed to enhance the experience (or attendance), so be it.

The traditional Christian religions are fighting a losing battle.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Todd, the 'decline' in The Netherlands is NOT due to any religious or Socialist dogma, in my experience, and opinion. It is almost entirely down to their 'Colonialism' from the middle and later years of the 17th/18th/19th centuries into 'poor' third-World' countries. They were like the honeypot to flies for those inhabitants of their colonies, in the recent (40-50 years), and because they ALL subsequently held Dutch passports, the resulting invasion of people who just didn't have a CLUE how to adapt, and work, in their new motherland, and quite frankly didn't WANT to work (because they didn't work in their native countries ), sucked their Social Security coffers dry, and didn't put a PENNY back in. The same applies to the UK Nick

I respectfully disagree...

However, I am not suggesting that the lack of religion is the reason for the decline in Holland, I am suggesting however that the advanced form of socialism that Holland has suffered from is the REASON for the significant decline in religion (so, opposite from what you thought I was suggesting).

I don't really believe that Dutch colonialism is responsible for their decline. As a matter of fact, the Dutch east and West indies actually contributed GREATLY to the advancement of Holland. It grew their culture to unbelievable proportions for what is otherwise one of the smallest countries in Europe. Several of my family members married Indonesians, and some of my cousins are an offspring of WASP / Indo.

Let's be honest Nick... the Dutch cuisine totally sucked prior to the integration of the Indonesion culture. You know very well how awesome bitterballer or nasigoring or ricestaffle etc... (no idea how to spell those). Peanut sauce and Sambal Oelek... that's all I need to say.


The problem with socialism is that everyone has a different opinion about what is a critical need, and what resources should be a community effort. I know Holland has had a major influx of Moroccans and Muslims... but none of that has really do with colonialism from the 1700s. That has more to do with the growth of socialism in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Imagine if Holland's stance was open immigration, but that they didn't automatically offer free food, lodging, squatters rights, education, and everything else to everyone. The only people then who would come to Holland would be people looking for jobs...

It's WELL known in the Muslim world (or was at least) that Holland was VERY open to immigration and that they offered a whole host of benefits to anyone who wanted to come in. You can do a search for this on the internet and find numerous articles from pro-Arabic websites touting the open-policy of Holland's government.

I think we can all agree that programs like subsidized health care, unemployment, etc... is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, it ALWAYS gets taken advantage of. It's human nature.

Anyone who has ever been on a cruise ship at lunch time buffet totally understands the REAL "human condition." For most people, it's all about what they can get, as quickly as they can get it. It's a feast or famin kind of mentality. That goes for benefits and money just as much as it does for a cruise ship buffet.

If you toss a thousand dollars worth of $1 dollar bills into a huge crowd, pandemonium will ensue. Even though most people probably won't get more than 10 or 12 bucks... they'll practically fight to the death, and push elderly and children out of the way to get it.

I really want to think that I've been able to think past that... I'm not one of those people who rushes to the free t-shirt stand at a concert to get a free shitty t-shirt with tons of advertisers on it. I'm also not the guy that stands in a 2 hour line at Dunking Doughnuts for International Doughnut day.

You see Nick... while it's nice for societies to care and have safety-nets for their community, the problem is that when you take it too far, it ends up bringing everything else down.

The Dutch have an inherent sense of business that has been ingrained in them. Just like different cultures have different assets, the superior gene in every culture tends to survive in a society of survival of the fittest. That's why people from Finland make great Rally drivers, the Dutch are great businessmen, and the germans make great scientists. But when you protect people too much, they no longer rely on their own devices and they don't strive to be the best that they can be. As a community, people stop making the tough decisions that they would otherwise be forced to. They also stop following in their parents footsteps... and they become more drawn by greed... whether that is the one guy who runs a restaurant and cheats his employees, or the guy who cheats the welfare system. Some have better luck from birth, but neither of them end up trying very hard in life.

You know, it really is a shame... and it does very much bother me. Although I'm a very proud American... I have great respect for where I came from, my heritage, and my family's history. Holland has diluted itself over the past 30 years... to most people in the world, Holland is just yet "another" European country. Most people in the world only know Holland by it's capitol, and that you can smoke pot and screw hookers there. Interestingly enough... that is the very same thing that made Holland in the 1300s and 1400s single handedly get Europe out of the dark ages... it was the city of Dordrecht that sparked trade amongst pirates and wealthy land barons of the time. In any case... you would be surprised how many of today's generation doesn't know that "The Dutch", "Holland", and "Netherlands" are all the same thing...

Why, just 6 months ago, one of my good friends went to the Sweden exibit in Disney World asking for the "doitch syrup cookies" (siroopwafles). Yeah...

I'm sure that most in Europe know the difference, but through the rest of the world... no one knows about the Dutch anymore... and no one cares.

They used to own New York for crying out loud.


We have two kinds of drastic mindsets in this world. You have the people who are close minded, and the people who are too open minded. The people who are too open minded are so open minded, that they are apologists. They are sorry for everything that anyone has ever done and they try to make everything right. Everyone is a victim, and everyone needs help. Unfortunately, if you combat this philosophy, you are considered both uncaring and a racist or bigot. This is the reason however that governments fail. The other extreme is that corporations take over the world (this has yet to happen however, but MANY countries have fallen because of their socilaist ideology).


What can I say Nick... will Holland ever return to it's former glory? What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years, was reduced to nothing in less than 30 years. I simply cannot agree that immigration is the problem, but instead a philosophy of advanced socialism. Holland has always been a melting pot of culture... but it's only recently become the epitomy of socialism.

Rev Klaas Hendrikse is most likely going to be the main stream thought within Christianity in a few generations. Because Rev. Klass's views are actually the truth about our world and lives.

I know many Christians on here are upset and say he can't call what he preaches Christianity, just like many Baptist and Born Again Christians hate Catholics, Jehovah's Witness and Mormons because they think they are wrong form of Christianity. I mean even Christianity started out as a splinter version of Judaism. Nobody has ownership of it.

I agree with Rev. Klaas that you don't have to believe in Jesus resurrection in order to preach or claim to be Christian. Christianity isn't more than a congregation of people sharing time of devotion or worship.

It is the communal worship that propels and attracts people to the religion and not so much the believing in a God. You can use the same God, switch Gods or multiple Gods or even a sculpture of a Golden Calf, it doesn't matter. People are attracted socially to a communal gathering, without that hardly anybody would be believing in any God what-so-ever.

98% of the people who regularly or even sporadically go to church ever even read their religious text and until the better half of the 20th century, they couldn't even read it.

I don't know a single person who truthfully can tell me that they read the entire Bible cover to cover. Some people have and some people do, but again, 98% of Christians haven't at all. And as we know that most Christians in the past, like during the Dark Ages, were illiterate yet they still were going to church. Most Christians don't even really give a 2nd thought about Jesus until it comes time to Church.

It is the absolute nut cases or the desperate who take this Jesus and God stuff seriously and those people are dangerous. It is all about the communal gathering. Some people like to sing, some like to hear stories, some prospect for mates or business, some like to rumor, some are just trying to one-up on each other. What ever the reason is, that is why people go to Church.

So you don't need the Bible and you don't need a deity, all you need is a communal gathering place and a dedicated person who tries to keep it on regular schedule (the pastor).

I can start a Spaghetti Monster church and people would come.

There is literally more churches then there are gas stations in this country. Sure, there are a lot of people who truly believe in Jesus as the Son of God. The bdub for example, but that's because they have been indoctrinated more than really believing they have "found the truth".

So if Rev. Klaas Hendrikse wants a communal gathering and call it a Christian Church, that's great. It's all good.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: If the military Field Commander had just written it down.... .

I forgot to mention, P'S Dad there were five or more different nationalities making up that line of soldiers, and each group spoke a totally unfamiliar language than the next gruop What good would writing it down have done then?
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I forgot to mention, P'S Dad there were five or more different nationalities making up that line of soldiers, and each group spoke a totally unfamiliar language than the next gruop What good would writing it down have done then? Nick

By the way Nick, I would be very interested to know what you think of my last response to your response.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: The very reason many people claim the Bible is out dated, or even that the constitution of our country is out dated and not keeping up with the times, or with the current views of people. What morphs is people. The past does not change. People like this preacher are the ones who change it and try to morph it to suit something saleable. Truth does not change. Sure some people claim to know the truth and some don't. Some are correct. Some are not. As Bdub said he believes what he believes, this guy believes what he believes. But he should call himself what he is, and whatever it is, it is not a Christian.

i hate to be a 'me too' guy but i agree.

I do disagree with Bdub's 'sad' comment as everyone gets to believe what they want. its only 'sad' when others infringe on that.

And i agree with the others that say what this guy is doing isn't Christianity. I am *not* one either by any stretch of the imagination, but i know that and don't pretend to be. Sure, the Christian 'faith' does morph and change over time but its still rooted in a belief of a single deity. Take that way, and its somethign else.

QFT

quote Originally posted by Wichita: It is the absolute nut cases or the desperate who take this Jesus and God stuff seriously and those people are dangerous. It is all about the communal gathering. Some people like to sing, some like to hear stories, some prospect for mates or business, some like to rumor, some are just trying to one-up on each other. What ever the reason is, that is why people go to Church.

Todd, I am sweating in my workshop on the welding job, and onlky pop upstairs for a slok of water every now and then..I will come back with my thoughts later
Nick

quote Originally posted by Gandalf: "When we get people into the Church by throwing Jesus Christ out of the Church, then we lose the core of Christianity. Then we are not reforming the institutions and attitudes but the core of our message." .

I am 25 years ahead of them...Ya know, it dont take that much to kick jesus out of yer life---just say "No, I aint no sheep to be sheparded"...the dead jew dont mind too much since he is dead, and the live ones around ya get wound up for a little while, but they learn to back off...

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: the dead jew dont mind too much since he is dead

You really are an embarrassment to this forum.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: You really are an embarrassment to this forum.

I am an embarrassment for refusing to bow to a popular cult??...WOW, man..B.C. must be a beetch of political-correctness these days. Here in Ontario, we still voice our opinions and decide our own relegions.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I respectfully disagree... However, I am not suggesting that the lack of religion is the reason for the decline in Holland, I am suggesting however that the advanced form of socialism that Holland has suffered from is the REASON for the significant decline in religion (so, opposite from what you thought I was suggesting). I don't really believe that Dutch colonialism is responsible for their decline. As a matter of fact, the Dutch east and West indies actually contributed GREATLY to the advancement of Holland. It grew their culture to unbelievable proportions for what is otherwise one of the smallest countries in Europe. Several of my family members married Indonesians, and some of my cousins are an offspring of WASP / Indo. Let's be honest Nick... the Dutch cuisine totally sucked prior to the integration of the Indonesion culture. You know very well how awesome bitterballer or nasigoring or ricestaffle etc... (no idea how to spell those). Peanut sauce and Sambal Oelek... that's all I need to say. The problem with socialism is that everyone has a different opinion about what is a critical need, and what resources should be a community effort. I know Holland has had a major influx of Moroccans and Muslims... but none of that has really do with colonialism from the 1700s. That has more to do with the growth of socialism in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Imagine if Holland's stance was open immigration, but that they didn't automatically offer free food, lodging, squatters rights, education, and everything else to everyone. The only people then who would come to Holland would be people looking for jobs... It's WELL known in the Muslim world (or was at least) that Holland was VERY open to immigration and that they offered a whole host of benefits to anyone who wanted to come in. You can do a search for this on the internet and find numerous articles from pro-Arabic websites touting the open-policy of Holland's government. I think we can all agree that programs like subsidized health care, unemployment, etc... is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, it ALWAYS gets taken advantage of. It's human nature. Anyone who has ever been on a cruise ship at lunch time buffet totally understands the REAL "human condition." For most people, it's all about what they can get, as quickly as they can get it. It's a feast or famin kind of mentality. That goes for benefits and money just as much as it does for a cruise ship buffet. If you toss a thousand dollars worth of $1 dollar bills into a huge crowd, pandemonium will ensue. Even though most people probably won't get more than 10 or 12 bucks... they'll practically fight to the death, and push elderly and children out of the way to get it. I really want to think that I've been able to think past that... I'm not one of those people who rushes to the free t-shirt stand at a concert to get a free shitty t-shirt with tons of advertisers on it. I'm also not the guy that stands in a 2 hour line at Dunking Doughnuts for International Doughnut day. You see Nick... while it's nice for societies to care and have safety-nets for their community, the problem is that when you take it too far, it ends up bringing everything else down. The Dutch have an inherent sense of business that has been ingrained in them. Just like different cultures have different assets, the superior gene in every culture tends to survive in a society of survival of the fittest. That's why people from Finland make great Rally drivers, the Dutch are great businessmen, and the germans make great scientists. But when you protect people too much, they no longer rely on their own devices and they don't strive to be the best that they can be. As a community, people stop making the tough decisions that they would otherwise be forced to. They also stop following in their parents footsteps... and they become more drawn by greed... whether that is the one guy who runs a restaurant and cheats his employees, or the guy who cheats the welfare system. Some have better luck from birth, but neither of them end up trying very hard in life. You know, it really is a shame... and it does very much bother me. Although I'm a very proud American... I have great respect for where I came from, my heritage, and my family's history. Holland has diluted itself over the past 30 years... to most people in the world, Holland is just yet "another" European country. Most people in the world only know Holland by it's capitol, and that you can smoke pot and screw hookers there. Interestingly enough... that is the very same thing that made Holland in the 1300s and 1400s single handedly get Europe out of the dark ages... it was the city of Dordrecht that sparked trade amongst pirates and wealthy land barons of the time. In any case... you would be surprised how many of today's generation doesn't know that "The Dutch", "Holland", and "Netherlands" are all the same thing... Why, just 6 months ago, one of my good friends went to the Sweden exibit in Disney World asking for the "doitch syrup cookies" (siroopwafles). Yeah... I'm sure that most in Europe know the difference, but through the rest of the world... no one knows about the Dutch anymore... and no one cares. They used to own New York for crying out loud. We have two kinds of drastic mindsets in this world. You have the people who are close minded, and the people who are too open minded. The people who are too open minded are so open minded, that they are apologists. They are sorry for everything that anyone has ever done and they try to make everything right. Everyone is a victim, and everyone needs help. Unfortunately, if you combat this philosophy, you are considered both uncaring and a racist or bigot. This is the reason however that governments fail. The other extreme is that corporations take over the world (this has yet to happen however, but MANY countries have fallen because of their socilaist ideology). What can I say Nick... will Holland ever return to it's former glory? What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years, was reduced to nothing in less than 30 years. I simply cannot agree that immigration is the problem, but instead a philosophy of advanced socialism. Holland has always been a melting pot of culture... but it's only recently become the epitomy of socialism.

I'm always amazed by the stuff you believe as "truth".

quote Originally posted by Wichita: There is literally more churches then there are gas stations in this country. Sure, there are a lot of people who truly believe in Jesus as the Son of God. The bdub for example, but that's because they have been indoctrinated more than really believing they have "found the truth".

Been busy a lot lately... will try to come back to reply to others, but I just want to let Wichita know that I became a Christian before my parents. It wasn't indoctrinated in me.

quote Originally posted by newf: I'm always amazed by the stuff you believe as "truth".

Feel free to counter everything I've said. This is a discussion after all.


Todd

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Maybe the Muslims have it right, or maybe Buddhists, or maybe we haven't actually found the answer yet. Maybe nothing exists. My point was, we can't all be right.

wrong again.. Your confusing the bs crap thats added to religious leaders throughout the centurys to impose their rules and policys over the general public and further re-enfoce their power base.. So if you strip away all the BS that all religions have, and strip them down to their core, they are all basically the same..

I think this preacher here has a good idea about religion, and i see no reason why he cant call himself a chrisitan as well.. I still dont understand how religious people consider themselves "morally superior" to others.. When they automatically look down on others for not believeing or believing something different then them.. Kinda like how you did with Nick.. Even if, in your mind it wasent intentional, the underlying message of your intolerance was there.. "you dont believe what i do, therefore your not worthy!"...

All religion sucks, all it does is divide people into groups and then the groups fight over whos right..

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Been busy a lot lately... will try to come back to reply to others, but I just want to let Wichita know that I became a Christian before my parents. It wasn't indoctrinated in me.

You have free speach, you have freedom of belief...argue and talk all ya want on the subject......Ya know, I once knew a girl who was convinced that all she had to do was "think positive", and some frapped-up universe would give her everything she wanted.....she spent a year "thinking positive" about me and her in a motel room--and not only did it not happen, I hate the beetches guts...she parayed to jesus, quoted scripture, she prayed to allah, she bowed to some "universe" and thought in terms of some higher power giving her what she wanted....and ya know, if she had just been honest and shoved the metaphysical sheet----she might have got what she wanted. Lord satan knows I loved her enough to have done just about anything for her.....except be a slave to her beliefs.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Feel free to counter everything I've said. This is a discussion after all. Todd

OK. can you qualify this in any way? "What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years, was reduced to nothing in less than 30 years."

quote Originally posted by newf: OK. can you qualify this in any way? "What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years, was reduced to nothing in less than 30 years."

Well--WTF is the problem???...the fiat money system and banksters who create money out of thin air threw a temper-tantrum when thier system didnt work out...

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I am an embarrassment for refusing to bow to a popular cult??

You might've noticed (if you actually bothered to read anyone else's posts) that I'm not exactly religious myself.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: WOW, man..B.C. must be a beetch of political-correctness these days. Here in Ontario, we still voice our opinions and decide our own relegions.

Oh, we don't have any trouble expressing ourselves out here in BC, buttercup. For example, I feel fortunate I don't have to deal with you in "real" life. Just reading your posts is a nauseating enough experience.

-Hugs and kisses from the west coast.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick:


Oh, we don't have any trouble expressing ourselves out here in BC, buttercup. For example, I feel fortunate I don't have to deal with you in "real" life. Just reading your posts is a nauseating enough experience.

-Hugs and kisses from the west coast.[/QUOTEButtercup ???....no, warent goint swap spit !!! <clint eastood>.....leftist but-turrd..

I love ya anyway

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Been busy a lot lately... will try to come back to reply to others, but I just want to let Wichita know that I became a Christian before my parents. It wasn't indoctrinated in me.

Your parents are not the only source of indoctrination. Peer groups, boyfriend/girlfriends, husband/wives (many people switch religions just to get hooked up), watching televangelist, co-workers and many other sources. We are a product of our environment.

You can indoctrinate adults just as easily as you can children. The difference between indoctrination and education is that indoctrination is process for which you are influenced and you accumulate ideas for which you are not expected to question or critically examine what you are being told and taught.

You don't question or critically examine your belief. You just know it as you say. You probably say, "I just know it in my heart and I've been touched by God so that is why I know the truth". To me, that just means you been indoctrinated. You won't ever question or critically examine your belief. Because if you really did, you would ceased to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

That is why Atheist/Agnostic folks know more about religion than people who are very religious, because these are folks who have question and critically examine it.

That is why I know you have been indoctrinated because who don't know very much at all about your own religion, yet you believe.

quote Originally posted by newf: OK. can you qualify this in any way? "What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years, was reduced to nothing in less than 30 years."

Sure, I would recommend you do some research on the city of Dodrecht. It will give you a bunch of history on how the Dutch brought Western Europe out of the dark ages.

I would also do a lot of reading on The Dutch East and West Indies corporations, trade routes, and Dutch colonialism. I would also read about their involvement in the slave trade, the spice trade, and their invention of the corporation, stock market, corporate share, and modern business structure.

I would also research Dutch advancement in technology, banking, etc. Believe it or not, the Dutch actually had more advancement in modern banking than the Knights Templar did.

You should be able to find all the information you're seeking, or you could just read my breif summary of it above.

Was there something specific you were countering? Did you want me to write a book or something?


EDIT: Their economic fall is pretty obvious though, I wasn't sure if you needed me to qualify that for you? I mean... it pretty much speaks for itself, just look at them...

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Sure, I would recommend you do some research on the city of Dodrecht. It will give you a bunch of history on how the Dutch brought Western Europe out of the dark ages. I would also do a lot of reading on The Dutch East and West Indies corporations, trade routes, and Dutch colonialism. I would also read about their involvement in the slave trade, the spice trade, and their invention of the corporation, stock market, corporate share, and modern business structure. I would also research Dutch advancement in technology, banking, etc. Believe it or not, the Dutch actually had more advancement in modern banking than the Knights Templar did. You should be able to find all the information you're seeking, or you could just read my breif summary of it above. Was there something specific you were countering?

Yes for one the assertion that the Dutch were a major economic power for anything close to 700 years. As far as I have read that's not even close to being true.

Want you to write a book?? Sure go ahead your fiction is always great.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 08-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by newf: Yes for one the assertion that the Dutch were a major economic power for anything close to 700 years. As far as I have read that's not even close to being true.

You've got a lot of reading to do then...

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You've got a lot of reading to do then...

I'm sure you have "other" facts?

quote Building on its fifteenth- and sixteenth-century successes in agricultural productivity, and in North Sea and Baltic shipping, the Northern Netherlands inherited the economic legacy of the southern provinces as the Revolt tore the Low Countries apart. The Dutch Golden Age lasted from roughly 1580, when the Dutch proved themselves successful in their fight with the Spanish, to about 1670, when the Republic's economy experienced a down-turn. Economic growth was very fast during until about 1620 when it slowed, but continued to grow steadily until the end of the Golden Age. The last decades of the seventeenth century were marked by declining production and loss of market dominance overseas.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/Harreld.Dutch

quote Originally posted by newf: I'm sure you have "other" facts? ]

I'm sure you think you're being slick, but through their times of economic down-turn, they were still one of the top economic powerhouses while everyone else was also in an economic down-turn. I mean, what do you think... they were THE SINGULAR most powerful country in the world for 700 years?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You should be able to find all the information you're seeking, or you could just read my breif summary of it above.

Exactly why I question you because I fear that some may actually just take what you say as being fact. (Not that there isn't some facts in what you say but there's al ot that is disputible as well.)

I tend to find statements like these mildly alarming to be honest.

quote -The Dutch have an inherent sense of business that has been ingrained in them. Just like different cultures have different assets, the superior gene in every culture tends to survive in a society of survival of the fittest. That's why people from Finland make great Rally drivers, the Dutch are great businessmen, and the germans make great scientists. -Holland has diluted itself over the past 30 years. -We have two kinds of drastic mindsets in this world. -I simply cannot agree that immigration is the problem, but instead a philosophy of advanced socialism.

quote Originally posted by newf: And I think you are talking out of your ass again. Go back and read what you said. What does this statement mean then?????? "will Holland ever return to it's former glory? What was essentially an economic superiority for nearly 700 years, was reduced to nothing in less than 30 years."

No, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and it's obvious to me that you have absolutely and totally no clue about European history (at all).

I said that Holland was "essentially an economic superiority", I did NOT say that they "were the most superior country in the world" for a full 700 years, which is what you think I'm saying.


This is your talent, you like to argue about anything and everything. You would argue with me that my name really doesn't have two Ds in it unless I could get 10 scientists to prove to you that my mom actually put two Ds on my birth certificate.