quote Originally posted by tutnkmn: I'd rather pay to bail out Boonie (i.e. take the hit on his bankruptcy in taxes) than to pay forever and a day bailing out bankrupt banks which are "too big to fail", the U. S. Government which is also bankrupt or giving FINANCIAL AID to CHINA!!!!

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You can get protection thru bankruptcy and still voluntarily pay back every cent you owe.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: Yeah, the companies write off debt,which has a public finance element, but I disagree with this.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Why would you go through filing bankruptcy, messing up your credit and all, and then pay the creditors back on top of that?

I can't answer that except for myself. Others will have to answer it for themselves.

If I give my word on something, whether it's a written word or over a handshake, it's my personal bond and I'll sell everything I own and live in a box before I go back on that word. I'll take care of my family and I've made sure I have enough paid up life insurace to make sure they are cared for when--not if, something happens to me regardless of what it cost me in $ or the physical things that might have made me happy, but my debts ALWAYS get paid, and always will-- no matter what--simply because I gave my word.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I can't answer that except for myself. Others will have to answer it for themselves. If I give my word on something, whether it's a written word or over a handshake, it's my personal bond and I'll sell everything I own and live in a box before I go back on that word. I'll take care of my family and I've made sure I have enough paid up life insurace to make sure they are cared for when--not if, something happens to me regardless of what it cost me in $ or the physical things that might have made me happy, but my debts ALWAYS get paid, and always will-- no matter what--simply because I gave my word.

yup. and bankruptcy is a known & legitimate part of EVERY aspect - so there is absolutely no "going back on your word", so dont let that be a hinderance.

Hmmm ....
I have not always had health insurance. I don't now. I have, more than sometimes, incurred medical help while uninsured and poor/broke. Everybody will take a payment rather than take a loss. Even if it's partial payments. Regular payments, of even five dollars, will ward off credit agencies. Don't let it get to credit collection agencies (if it has, things can still be worked out). Creditors will settle for less than full amount due, rather than lose out on costs of the loan/credit/obligation.
So, I have to ask. Should the USA raise it's credit limit ?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yup. and bankruptcy is a known & legitimate part of EVERY aspect - so there is absolutely no "going back on your word", so dont let that be a hinderance.

As I said--others will have to answer for themselves.

Boonei, You have a pm.

My 17 year business failed and I did a personal and business bankruptcy in '09. It was a really tough emotional time. My debts were 95% business related.

That which doesn't kill you makes your stronger (and smarter).

PM me if you want to ask any direct questions.

I'm like Maryjane on this one. My word is my bond.

Do what you have to do, but don't rationalize it as being OK to take someone elses money and not repay it.

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: I'm like Maryjane on this one. My word is my bond. Do what you have to do, but don't rationalize it as being OK to take someone elses money and not repay it.

of course. but, part of "your word" INCLUDES the reality of bankruptcy. and, you dont just TAKE with the intent of repaying, they GIVE with knowledge that it may NOT be repaid. Go and try and borrow money from a bank "on your word" and a handshake. not gonna happen. you wont even get a "unsecure" credit card on that BS.

This is NOT the same thing as borrowing some $$$ from your friends/family. In that scenario, yes, there are no provisions for non-payment, and you SHOULD be shamed. bank loans & credit cards are designed with the reality of non-payment. it is a real thing that happens. for endless reasons. after all, how many businesses did GW Bush bankrupt? 7 was it? + the USA....it happens.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Wow, you did alot of research to prove................what exactly were you proving again? Whatever it is, you seem to have taken great joy in it.......unless you was just trying to show me the errors of my ways that I already admitted. But then if that were true, your concern could have been expressed in a P.M. Maybe you hoped that others could learn from your research on me. I think I would rather just believe that. Becouse other wise, I would be forced to feel very sad about the reason why you just couldn't say, "From your past posts about your spending habits......."

I was trying to show that taken together like that it could look like you racked up your cards with no intention to pay. A bankruptcy court may do the same thing. I mentioned that in my reply. (And I am *NOT* suggesting that is what you did) I'm sorry if you think the whole purpose was to get some joy at poking fun at you. Talk to a lawyer and be sure to review 11 U.S.C. §523(a). If the creditors can prove you didn't have any intention to pay, you won't be able to discharge the debt via bankruptcy.

I would hope not only would others learn from your example, but that maybe - just maybe - you will too. You've talked about not saving for your future before and said you knew it was a bad idea - and you didn't do anything about it. You continue to make the same choices. I believe you need some serious introspection into your motivations. That's nothing you need to explain or justify to anyone here - but it's something I think you need to do.

There's no need for me to tell you you were irresponsible. You know that. You knew it when you were doing it.
I wish you the best and hope you don't find yourself in this situation again.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-14-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: I'm like Maryjane on this one. My word is my bond. Do what you have to do, but don't rationalize it as being OK to take someone elses money and not repay it.

In business I had people go bankrupt on me. If bankruptcy isn't ok does that mean I have the right to take a gun and go get what should be mine? If it's ok for people to go bankrupt on me, why is it not ok for me to go bankrupt on other people, if I truly need to?

Bankruptcy makes you rethink all kinds of things. It flips over a whole bunch of pre-conceived ideas. It's not fair. But a time comes for some where being not fair is the only option. It should be avoided if at all possible. If needed it should be used.

If bankruptcy isn't ok, then what are the alternatives for a person who truly has his back up against the wall? You can shoot yourself in the head but the people still won't get repaid.

It is NOT ok to borrow money with the intent to go bankrupt. You should NOT live your life in a manner that involves a high risk of bankruptcy. You need to do your best to handle your credit. You need to minimize your exposure to huge financial risks.

Watch this video and several others from this guy, maybe can can shed some new light. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EheWeL5WjTY The key is living within your means and having a savings account,not using money you don't have. You are not alone, alot of Americans are living above their means. I would rather live in a shack with an old car, black and white tv and have money, than have it all and have the pressures of debt. I learned my lesson along time ago...dug myself out. I hate owing money to anyone and I don't. I really wish you well and hope you can figure a way out of this but it's gonna take some dedication on your part.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: they GIVE with knowledge that it may NOT be repaid.

I really don't thin banks loan money on the principal that it will not be repaid

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: Go and try and borrow money from a bank "on your word" and a handshake. not gonna happen. you wont even get a "unsecure" credit card on that BS.

I have done this when you bank with people who know you this is possible. Call the banker up tell him how much I need and it is in my account.

Sure I have to go in and sign some papers when I get there but the money is in my account on my word.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: (aren't there enough current threads about that already?)

I know I started one. I have been scarce in the forum recently. My question was to spur thought from Boondawg on his thoughts given previously on that topic. No "gotcha moment", just an opinion from a reality perspective. I was not really asking for an answer. I did not mean to bring in a political discussion.
I am gonna cut and paste the rest of your post in a relative thread as so I can respond with an opinion. When I can (I have been meaning to discuss/post more in that topic).

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Has anyone here ever declared bankruptcy that might tell me of their experience? Maybe by P.M., if you feel you want to avoid being reprimanded. I know the mechanics of it, I would just like to here from someone who actually lived it. Did you learn anything? Do you eventually learn to live with the shame? Just wondering how bad it is on a personal level...

Hey Boonie, about a year ago we did it, about 40,000. I worked for a Divorce - Bankruptcy Lawyer, fixing his cars. He is the best on the Island. Paid him 1,800 and He took care of everything. It was kind of funny how it works in court with a well respected Lawyer. He said to declare everything. I didn't bankrupt the auto parts store I buy parts from and some family loans. I still go to the banks I defaulted on and cash checks and don't feel any shame. I normally wouldn't have done this but..... 6 months before the bottom dropped out of the market my wife and I went to Flipping House training, about a week after our last class the economy took a hit. They said that's the best time to invest in real estate. Only if you got all the money Donald Trump has. Right away they took the rest of our available credit away and declared we are over our maximum and changed our interest to 29%. After sending the card companies 5 and 6 hundred dollars to pay late payments I had enough. Right now I use a Debit card, rented cars with it, get parts sent from the main land with it so not much has changed except the calls from telemarketers making threats to get a large commission.

Boonie, businesses and corporations file for bankruptcy and break contracts all the time, it's considered a normal part of doing business. They do so with no apparent social repercussions, and in your case you were and are honest with your life and family. Do what's right for you. There are penalties associated with doing so, of course, but when there is no reasonable alternative then you can only do what's best, the least bad of several bad options. Ignore the folks who want to portray you as some sort of loser or lesser person, they'd do the same thing if faced with the choice, and honestly? Their oh-pinions have proven to be rather valueless in the grand scheme of things anyway.

Take care of yourself, that's who you owe your first fealty to...

07-19-2010 09:53 PM https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/076323.html

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I bought a brand new 1- 46" Sony Bravia 120Hz LCD TV and 2- Samsung 32" 60Hz LCD TV's all with 2 year warrentee & 3 HDMI cables for $2,300 dollars.

Three freakin' TVs, including a large 46" Sony unit?

And how much were you already in debt when you went and bought all that expensive unnecessary gear (and plenty more) on credit?

Sorry Boonie, but hearing stuff like this just makes me want to scream.

Boonie...ae you prepared to sell it all, or are you going to hang onto it all? You MUST be able to raise a few monthly payments from all that stuff!!!
I couldn't sit and watch it, if I knew it was bankrupting me Sell everythinbg, and buy a secondhand TV, and a cheap laptop , and make those things work FOR you, not against you.
I hope you get everything sorted quickly as possible, and get back to solvency ASAP. It would be making me sick with worry to have that kind of unsecured debt
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Boonie...ae you prepared to sell it all, or are you going to hang onto it all? You MUST be able to raise a few monthly payments from all that stuff!!! I couldn't sit and watch it, if I knew it was bankrupting me Sell everythinbg, and buy a secondhand TV, and a cheap laptop , and make those things work FOR you, not against you. I hope you get everything sorted quickly as possible, and get back to solvency ASAP. It would be making me sick with worry to have that kind of unsecured debt Nick

Well unless he got cash advances for it all the banks will take the stuff right off his walls.
Better clean that hard drive before they take it and make things worse.

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: Right now I use a Debit card, rented cars with it, get parts sent from the main land with it so not much has changed except the calls from telemarketers making threats to get a large commission.

How are you renting cars with a debit card? I was never able to.

Brad

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 07-14-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: I'm like Maryjane on this one. My word is my bond. Do what you have to do, but don't rationalize it as being OK to take someone elses money and not repay it.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly...and it CERTAINLY holds true when borring real money from real people.....HOWEVER....when dealing with the banks, you are dealing with a fiat (false) monetary system and fractal banking....they $1,000 they loaned you DIDNT EXIST TO LOAN....all they did was open a ledger, enter some numbers into an account, "create" that $1,000 out of thin air, and convince you they had loaned you money when in FACT, the money doesnt exist until you earn it and give it to them....

Its like me "loaning" you a dozen cookies (but handing over none and you walk out empty handed), then making you go bake 14 to give to me and saying "thanks for giving me back my dozen cookies"....whouldnt you be scratching your head say "WTF ?????....I didnt walk out of here with no bag of cookies, yet this azzwipe is thanking me for giving back what he never gave me in the 1st place? "

If ya want my firm word and honestey--yours better be just as good. Screw me and I will screw back......and the banksters wit thier fiat money system are one of the biggest screwers of all time.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 07-14-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Boonie, businesses and corporations file for bankruptcy and break contracts all the time, it's considered a normal part of doing business. They do so with no apparent social repercussions, and in your case you were and are honest with your life and family. Do what's right for you. There are penalties associated with doing so, of course, but when there is no reasonable alternative then you can only do what's best, the least bad of several bad options. Ignore the folks who want to portray you as some sort of loser or lesser person, they'd do the same thing if faced with the choice, and honestly? Their oh-pinions have proven to be rather valueless in the grand scheme of things anyway. Take care of yourself, that's who you owe your first fealty to...

x2

quote Originally posted by Formula88: There's no need for me to tell you you were irresponsible. You know that. You knew it when you were doing it. I wish you the best and hope you don't find yourself in this situation again.

Fair enough.

And if anyone cares about my intent, I did intend to pay it all back.
Albeit slowly.
I was banking on my new job paying better, my wife's job paying better with more hours, and slightly cheaper cost-of-living here in Washington.
I fully expected to be doing better, quicker.

Over-optimistic, to the point of wishfull thinking ?
Perhaps.
But I don't think it was totally unrealistic with our skills and background.

But hey, i'm sure even that can be scrutinized.

I had a plan, maybe not a great plan, but I DID have a plan.
But then again, I'm sure Chrysler did too....I wonder how many TV's THOSE guys had?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: To those that tryed to help, thank you. As well as those that refrained from judgement. And to those I have upset by my questions (as in reality I have taken no action yet), i'm sorry this affected you in a negitive way.

I am going to KICK THE LIVING CRAP out of the next person on this forum who uses "positive" or "negative" !!!!

HOLEY bejebus cructus french-fries....has the WHOLE fracking planet gone insane with "thinking positive ???????????????"

Maybe its a GOOD--POSITIVE--thing that comet Elenin will wipe out 90% of the fracking species !!! THATS a positive result, if only to make them shut-the-eff-up about "postive" and "negative"

FRRRUUUCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and gawd I hate politically-correct-and-current catch phrases....

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Oh, and gawd I hate politically-correct-and-current catch phrases....

Positive & negative energy is not a politically-correct-and-current catch phrases...

I understand the balance, Boon....just seems EVERYWHERE one turns these days, everybody is trying for and emphasizing positive, condeming negative..and that is OUT of balance.....negative is needed, however ya define it.....

Besides, before 2009 I had never in my life heard of "positive" or "negative" thinking-thinking was just thinking with no "sides"...an old boss introduced me too it, and I really wish I had kicked her in the crunt and shot her in the forehead on the spot...I somehow managed to live 41 fracking years without knowing thinking "positive" is good, and thinking "negative" is bad....and I resent the frack out of the thought control and definitions.....

Soooo....your situation is NOT "negative", it is NOT "positive",,,,it simply exists, and it is what you make of it, and think of it yourself.... (while others may judge in the positive/negative vien about it--I wont...my mind says exercise the best possible soloution and opinions be damned.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: And if anyone cares about my intent, I did intend to pay it all back. Albeit slowly. I was banking on my new job paying better, my wife's job paying better with more hours, and slightly cheaper cost-of-living here in Washington. I fully expected to be doing better, quicker.

I never doubted that. And if the credit card companies hadn't cut your limits, you might have been able to hold out long enough to get on your feet. Or you might have just dug yourself deeper before hitting bottom. (We know which the credit card company was afraid of.)

My biggest concern for you would be how a bankruptcy court looks at your pattern. If you file bankruptcy and are not allowed to discharge the debt, you may be worse off than you are now. Definitely talk to a lawyer and credit counselor BEFORE you make the decision on whether or not to file.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: of course. but, part of "your word" INCLUDES the reality of bankruptcy. and, you dont just TAKE with the intent of repaying, they GIVE with knowledge that it may NOT be repaid. Go and try and borrow money from a bank "on your word" and a handshake. not gonna happen. you wont even get a "unsecure" credit card on that BS. This is NOT the same thing as borrowing some $$$ from your friends/family. In that scenario, yes, there are no provisions for non-payment, and you SHOULD be shamed. bank loans & credit cards are designed with the reality of non-payment. it is a real thing that happens. for endless reasons. after all, how many businesses did GW Bush bankrupt? 7 was it? + the USA....it happens.

It's your friends and family and everyone else, that have to absorb that loss when they go to borrow borrow in good faith.

As far as borrowing on a handshake at the bank, I've done it and can do it today. Why? Because they know my word is as good as any piece of paper. I wouldn't be able to get a mortgage on a hnadshake, but if I needed $5k, they'd count it out in my hand.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-15-2011).]

I am having a hard time with all of the opinions as to how filing bankrupcy is OK, or a part of doing business. This just floors me . Yes, I understand there are times when there is no other option. Boonie may have had every intention of paying back what he had borrowed, but his lack of disipline got him over his head. I can see getting some essentials right away. But to go on such a spending spree. Why not wait untill you have the income then go out and buy the niceties? I am not saying Boonie is a bad guy. He will have to live with his decissions, and hopefully learn from his mistakes.

I worked for a drilling company in the late 70s, with corporate offices in Houston but base of operations in south Louisiana. The owner was adamant taht all bills had to be paid the same day the invoice hit the office--no matter what, Check made out and in the mail. No 30 or 60 day---the same day. We dealt with big vendors, Wilson, National, Oilwell supply houses with local stores in every little oil patch we went. We got a contract to drill a wildcat well down on the lower Texas coast near Seadrift Texas, moved the rig down, was rigging up and needed some things, and the nearest Wilson was in Victoria, quite a ways away, but there was an oilfield supply store called Shamrock in Seadrift--I'd never heard or it, and they had never heard of us. When I walked in and asked for some supplies, the guy asked how I would pay for it, and I said we had credit with those above, he could call and verify our creditworthiness. He called his boss instead, and not 2 minutes later that boss called back, and said simply "Give him the store if he wants it".

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You still can. Nothing but you can stop you from doing it even if you file bankruptcy and recieve it. You can get protection thru bankruptcy and still voluntarily pay back every cent you owe.

Correct. You can also file bankruptcy that doesn't get rid of the debt, but reorganizes it into a payment plan you can afford. I believe that is less damaging to your credit, but talk with an expert to be sure.

quote Originally posted by weaselbeak: Business, and people with money do it all the time. Ask Trump.

Thats right, some people were hoping a twice bankrupted businessman was going to run for president. *whew* Dodged THAT bullet. While he entertains the heck out of me, Trump would have made a terrible president.

Boon- If you go to do chapter 7 or 11 whatever, you are going to be surprised how little you are filing on compared to some. $40k is a drop in the well.. some owe-2-300,000 easily, and they are scamming the system by signing off any possessions that are worth money (like businesses, houses and cars..) to relatives so it does not count as their held wealth during proceedings.

My recommendation is if you are really going to do this, stop paying on all cards now. Payments between now and bankruptcy will only help you have less money after its over. You'll STILL be bankrupt. Save as much as you can, tell any bill collector you are filing bankruptcy, and get ahold of a lawyer. Lawyer will likely tell you to take a cash advance on one of those cards so he can get paid for services. Lawyer will give you a case number, once you provide it to bill collectors, they cannot legally bother you about it again until you are in court.

Sometimes you get buried in debt, sometimes you make poor financial decisions. It happens, thats how businesses go under.. but nobody puts any blame on a businessman who fails... "Hey, he took a shot and failed.. it happens.." Well, you are in debt based on your personal business. You took some chances and it didnt pan out.. you were trying, which is more than some do.

No shame.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I understand the balance, Boon....just seems EVERYWHERE one turns these days, everybody is trying for and emphasizing positive, condeming negative..and that is OUT of balance.....negative is needed, however ya define it..... Besides, before 2009 I had never in my life heard of "positive" or "negative" thinking-thinking was just thinking with no "sides"...an old boss introduced me too it, and I really wish I had kicked her in the crunt and shot her in the forehead on the spot...I somehow managed to live 41 fracking years without knowing thinking "positive" is good, and thinking "negative" is bad....and I resent the frack out of the thought control and definitions.....

When I was in the military (early/mid 1990s), they not only taught positive thinking, but had an acronym for it: PMA (positive mental attitude). The idea is that if you believe you can accomplish a task, you have a better chance of actually accomplishing it than you would if you thought otherwise. And believe it or not, it actually works.

Of course, the military school of thought is pretty practical. Their idea of positive thinking is "if I grit my teeth and keep pushing, I can finish this 25k road march". Whereas in the civilian world, it's more like "if I try really hard to be smiley and happy, everything will be sunshine and lollipops". Of course, the civilian version of PMA is just a bunch of this --->

My apologies to Boondawg for the off-topic rambling.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 07-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: My apologies to Boondawg for the off-topic rambling.

No apologies needed.
I think it has pretty much ran it's coarse.

Kinda' like the guy who had a pet rattlesnake for 5 years with no problem.
Then one day it just up and bit him right out of the blue.
The guy was shocked.
How could the his snake do that to him?

But the snake was only being what it was.