http://www.ocregister.com/a...iate-california.html

Amazon ends deal with 25,000 California websites
Jan Norman
Orange County Register
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Gov. Jerry Brown has signed into law California's tax on Internet sales through affiliate advertising which will immediately cut small-business website revenue 20% to 30%, experts say.
The bill, AB 28X, takes effect immediately. The state Board of Equalization says the tax will raise $200 million a year, but critics claim it will raise nothing because online retailers will end their affiliate programs rather than collect the tax.

Amazon has already emailed its termination of its affiliate advertising program with 25,000 websites. The letter says, in part:
(The bill) specifically imposes the collection of taxes from consumers on sales by online retailers - including but not limited to those referred by California-based marketing affiliates like you - even if those retailers have no physical presence in the state.
We oppose this bill because it is unconstitutional and counterproductive. It is supported by big-box retailers, most of which are based outside California, that seek to harm the affiliate advertising programs of their competitors. Similar legislation in other states has led to job and income losses, and little, if any, new tax revenue. We deeply regret that we must take this action.
The new law won't affect customers, Amazon said, but added that the immediate termination of the affiliate program also applies to endless.com, myhabit.com and smallparts.com.
(Full disclosure: I have a personal website that has been an Amazon affiliate. It made $2 last quarter. That is not 30% of my income.)
Almost all the California Amazon affiliates have fewer than 75 employees and a large percentage have no employees, according to Rebecca Madigan, executive director of the Performance Marketing Association, a Camarillo-based nationwide trade association.
"This law won't impact Amazon that much but it is a crisis for website owners who make revenue by placing ads on their websites for thousands of online retailers," Madigan said. "Most of them don't have a physical presence in California."
California Retailers Association stated: "We thank Governor Jerry Brown and the leaders in the California State Legislature who have demonstrated their leadership and commitment to California businesses by passing and signing e-fairness into law. Small and large businesses across the state have been held at a major disadvantage by the current law that out-of-state online companies like Amazon.com and Overstock.com have exploited for years. This has cost us jobs and revenues."
The U.S. Supreme Court in 1992 ruled that states cannot tax businesses that aren't physically within their boundaries. Such taxes would regulate interstate commerce, which is a federal government prerogative.
However, New York in 2008 passed a law to require companies with online affiliate advertising programs to collect sales tax for sales through those affiliates based in New York. Since then Rhode Island, North Carolina, Illinois, Arkansas and Connecticut passed similar laws.
Amazon is suing New York over the law, and the Performance Marketing Association is suing Illinois.
Amazon affiliate Keith Posehn, owner of zorz.com in San Diego, said he had affiliate advertising agreements with more than 70 companies and these programs were 35% of his company revenue before the California legislature passed a similar bill last year. Then-Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed that bill.
"We got 70 termination letters in one night before he vetoed it," Posehn said. After that, he started changing his business away from affiliate advertising and has started a new mobile application company.
"I have pitched investors and several question the wisdom of staying in California," Posehn said. "Some venture capitalists are very keen on placing startups outside California because start-up costs are less."
However, another Amazon affiliate, Glenn Richards, an independent recording artist in Orange County (MightyFleissRadio.com), is angry with Amazon and its head Jeff Bezos.
"I think that Amazon.com's decision to throw their affiliates, (including myself) under the bus is a national disgrace," Richards said. "Jeff Bezos should be ashamed of his conduct. His bully boy practice and tactics of extinguishing small business in California should be (condemned). Small business has no power...and no hope to confront Internet giants like Amazon.com."
Board of Equalization Member George Runner blasted Brown for signing the law. "Even as Governor Jerry Brown lifted his pen to sign this legislation, thousands of affiliates across California were losing their jobs. The so-called 'Amazon tax' is truly a lose-lose proposition for California. Not only won’t we see the promised revenues, we’ll actually lose income tax revenue as affiliates move to other states."

People and companies "vote" with their feet. When they find the atmosphere in an area or state is toxic for their lively hood they leave. As many California buisness are leaving California just because of its toxic buisness environment. This is a business opportunity for someone else to fill that void, if they feel that they can make a profitable business. When the last business leaves, please turn off the lights.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/086288.html

Almost the same titles too
Kinda scary.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: When the last business leaves, please turn off the lights.

They still have lots of agricultural business there. CA isn't all finished yet.

I guess one alternative is for the brick and mortar stores to close, move all inventory into two different states (so they can always ship from outside that state) and then do all sales over the internet. Put the sales/servers outside the US.

I'm sure we can get used to buying things sight unseen, right? It would certainly save a lot in local wage costs for sure.

quote Originally posted by TK: I guess one alternative is for the brick and mortar stores to close, move all inventory into two different states (so they can always ship from outside that state) and then do all sales over the internet. Put the sales/servers outside the US. I'm sure we can get used to buying things sight unseen, right? It would certainly save a lot in local wage costs for sure.

Not me.
Then again, I buy. If I sold, I'd be doing things your way.
To think ... we did not even have taxes for many years. Only import tariffs.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/086288.html Almost the same titles too Kinda scary.

that's funny! I didn't see that post. Whats really has me puzzled, is how these people accuse Amazon of being the bad guys!

This is a job for the Obama Justice Department!
It wouldn't surprise me if Amazon gets investigated/sued for "illegally" ending it's affiliate program. That's tax evasion, you know.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: that's funny! I didn't see that post. Whats really has me puzzled, is how these people accuse Amazon of being the bad guys!

That's they way the are...demonize the rich. Class warfare.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: Look, if the brick and mortar stores want to compete with online retailers, then do what any other business does with common sense. Set up a website and sell online as well. Wal-mart does it. For cying out loud, what a bunch of pansies. If you cant compete, you want to force others to help you compete. What a joke.

Selling online isn't a good option for many businesses.

I'm all about this thread and how stupid CA is, but smaller businesses can't afford to set up a site, set up a shipping deal, be ready to take hits when things arrive damaged, etc.

I shop at Fry's a lot. I have noticed that they are usually very competitive with online electronics retailers. They even beat them a lot on their sale items. I am sure they monitor their primary competitors, NewEgg and TigerDirect.

I bring my phone with me when I shop at Fry's and scan their bar codes. If their price is within 10% of the online price, I buy it there. I would say that they get my business about 70% of the time.

I think that other brick-n-mortar stores should take a page out of Fry's book and monitor their online competitors too.


.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Selling online isn't a good option for many businesses. I'm all about this thread and how stupid CA is, but smaller businesses can't afford to set up a site, set up a shipping deal, be ready to take hits when things arrive damaged, etc.

So the problem is defined that small businesses can't compete with large online retailers like Amazon.
What's the solution?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So the problem is defined that small businesses can't compete with large online retailers like Amazon. What's the solution?

The small companies die out.
It's capitalism.

Doug, you are probably right. I've obviously never owned a business.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: The small companies die out. It's capitalism. Doug, you are probably right. I've obviously never owned a business.

Not necessarily.
Small companies can't compete based solely on price - so the brick and mortar stores have to offer something the online retailers can't. This is nothing new. Even before the internet, small companies had to find a way to distinguish themselves from the big corporations because they couldn't compete solely on volume and mass discounts.

The brick and mortar stores that don't adapt will go out of business and someone else comes in to either fill the existing need, or create a new market.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: It's capitalism.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I shop at Fry's a lot. I have noticed that they are usually very competitive with online electronics retailers. They even beat them a lot on their sale items. I am sure they monitor their primary competitors, NewEgg and TigerDirect.

Doug has not been drinking his Kool Aid, .
Competition is good.
Anybody know who is hiring for a street lamp lighter ?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Not necessarily. Small companies can't compete based solely on price - so the brick and mortar stores have to offer something the online retailers can't. This is nothing new. Even before the internet, small companies had to find a way to distinguish themselves from the big corporations because they couldn't compete solely on volume and mass discounts. The brick and mortar stores that don't adapt will go out of business and someone else comes in to either fill the existing need, or create a new market.

Are you talking something as simple as just attentive employees that care? Or are you talking a physical SOMETHING they can offer than an online store can't?

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Are you talking something as simple as just attentive employees that care? Or are you talking a physical SOMETHING they can offer than an online store can't?

the good stores do, its called, no shipping, good customer service, and no bullshit return policies. I shop locally from good retailers that offer this. Otherwise, I go online.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Selling online isn't a good option for many businesses. I'm all about this thread and how stupid CA is, but smaller businesses can't afford to set up a site, set up a shipping deal, be ready to take hits when things arrive damaged, etc.

Sure they can. Online businesses are cheaper and easier to set up then you think. Even godaddy.com and the like offer simple "store" templates.

And don't forget that Amazon.com got its start as a small online business that sold books that people couldn't get through their big box counterparts. With amazon.com taking the lead with eBook sales and eReaders, they have helped push the publishing industry away from its 100+ year old business model into something the music and movie industry's have already failed to catch on to. Now it's the New York publishers' turn to be left in the past.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: The small companies die out. It's capitalism.

This was Marx's criticism of capitalism, that eventually there would only be one seller of anything. Obviously, Marx was wrong, and so is everyone else who criticizes capitalism on the basis of market dominance. Businesses must distinguish their service in order to maintain sales. Many do that very well, or WalMart would be the only retailer in the country. As Formula 88 said, all business must distinguish themselves, must give customers a reason to come back. Those that do will prosper. The number one rule of business is: find a need and fill it.

As for taxes, history has proven over and over that raising taxes never meets the need it is supposed to fill. As long as people feel the reward is worth the effort, they will be productive. When the reward is not worth the effort, they stop producing. The left has never understood the real world and never will.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: The left has never understood the real world and never will.

I've noticed that many people here consider most other countries to be "leftist" so when you make comments like that are you referring to all those countries that may be left of center as well, or are you just referring to leftists in the U.S., or are you just referring to the extreme/radical left?

Personally I think a balance of left and right ideal and regulations are necessary for a succesfull economy/country but it seems that many here like to generalize and just call everything left of center bad, stupid, evil, communist....etc. Seems lazy and shortsighted IMO.

Just so everyone is in the clear, when I said

quote Originally posted by theBDub: The small companies die out. It's capitalism.

I didn't mean that as a criticism. And I understand good service brings customers.

But many times, smaller shops just can't compete with the big dogs. It's not necessarily a bad thing, just the way o' life.

quote Originally posted by newf: Personally I think a balance of left and right ideal and regulations are necessary for a succesfull economy/country but it seems that you like to generalize and just call everything left of center bad, stupid, evil, communist....etc.

Say what you mean next time. I can take it.

Where is the society that embraces socialism/communism and produces more individual freedom? There isn't one anywhere on earth. Being human is only valuable if one is free to become all one is capable of. That is what conservatism is about: defend individual freedom AND responsibility ( these two go hand in hand ), succor the weak and helpless, and stand against all attempts to coerce the individual into the " one size fits all " mold. There is freedom and there is slavery; all gradiations of communism are slavery.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Are you talking something as simple as just attentive employees that care? Or are you talking a physical SOMETHING they can offer than an online store can't?

From something as simple as customer service to anything else a business can think of to give someone a reason to shop there instead of online.
A friend of mine opened a hobby store a couple years ago. Most of the RC, modeling, and gaming stuff can be had online cheaper - so why shop with him? Well, you get the good customer service. You get to see and try out the product before you buy it. You get support after the sale. You can also get what you want right now instead of waiting for UPS. He has gaming demonstrations where people can come in and play various games for free to learn how to play them and see if they like them.

They also have a Facebook page to network with their customers and find new ones. People can learn about the store and contact them for online orders if they're too far away. No need for a huge web hosting company site when just getting started.

Face time with your customer is incredibly valuable. A good business doesn't waste that. It's an asset an online company does not have.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-01-2011).]

So, the "Big Box" stores are pushing the tax to "level the playing field," and the liberals are to blame? Isn't "Big Business" synonymous with the Republican Party? Did I miss something?

quote Originally posted by Flamberge: Sure they can. Online businesses are cheaper and easier to set up then you think. Even godaddy.com and the like offer simple "store" templates. And don't forget that Amazon.com got its start as a small online business that sold books that people couldn't get through their big box counterparts. With amazon.com taking the lead with eBook sales and eReaders, they have helped push the publishing industry away from its 100+ year old business model into something the music and movie industry's have already failed to catch on to. Now it's the New York publishers' turn to be left in the past.

that's true, I sell online out of the house all the time.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: So, the "Big Box" stores are pushing the tax to "level the playing field," and the liberals are to blame? Isn't "Big Business" synonymous with the Republican Party? Did I miss something?

A bill passed by the Democrat dominated legislature and signed by the Democrat governor.
It's Liberals who want to use taxes to "level the playing field." They even call the law "e-fairness."
Conservatives tend to want to lower business taxes to help businesses - not raise them to hurt other businesses. (in general)

quote Originally posted by carnut122: So, the "Big Box" stores are pushing the tax to "level the playing field," and the liberals are to blame? Isn't "Big Business" synonymous with the Republican Party? Did I miss something?

yeah, the liberals are to blame because they believe in this social and economical justice BS. The left are the one trying to push through these massive tax hikes. So far, the only states to pass online taxes are New York, and California. some of the most liberal states in the Union.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: yeah, the liberals are to blame because they believe in this social and economical justice BS. The left are the one trying to push through these massive tax hikes. So far, the only states to pass online taxes are New York, and California. some of the most liberal states in the Union.

yes, areas with higher population densities will be more "left leaning".

anyways - somalia is still around for those who want less g'ment. it is wide open for full exploitation.

I think it's important for companies like Amazon to do stuff like this. It's like when that Wal*Mart store in Canada fought to unionize, and the very next day after unionizing, Wal*Mart decided to close all the stores in that area, essentially showing them that if they want to work for them, they have to work by their rules, otherwise they can feel free to get another job somewhere else.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Say what you mean next time. I can take it. Where is the society that embraces socialism/communism and produces more individual freedom? There isn't one anywhere on earth. Being human is only valuable if one is free to become all one is capable of. That is what conservatism is about: defend individual freedom AND responsibility ( these two go hand in hand ), succor the weak and helpless, and stand against all attempts to coerce the individual into the " one size fits all " mold. There is freedom and there is slavery; all gradiations of communism are slavery.

I said exactly what I meant.

Your answer is very idealistic, which is fine, however I would say that no society can function by total conservatism or total liberalism. The assertion of freedom=conservatism on one side and slavery=liberalism on the other does not equate IMO, and to assume that all conservatism is good and all liberalism is evil is more black and white thinking that I find hard to accept. It does make things easier though I suppose.

As for your question I would submit that "individual freedom" can mean different things in a true society and rarely is there total freedom.

quote Originally posted by newf: I said exactly what I meant. Your answer is very idealistic, which is fine, however I would say that no society can function by total conservatism or total liberalism. The assertion of freedom=conservatism on one side and slavery=liberalism on the other does not equate IMO, and to assume that all conservatism is good and all liberalism is evil is more black and white thinking that I find hard to accept. It does make things easier though I suppose. As for your question I would submit that "individual freedom" can mean different things in a true society and rarely is there total freedom.

lol, without the liberal thinking of men like G.Washington, T.Jefferson, etc - we'd still be a British colony
Benidict Arnold was a conservative
conservative/liberal are NOTHING but comparatives. they are NOT ideologies

the liberal Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross by conservatives.

every move forward made by humans was due to liberal thinking. had we listened to conservatives, we'd still be swinging in the trees.

but - yes - not all ideas are good ones. in fact - most are not. and that is the hard part. yes, it is an easy cowardly thing to just say no to everything. of course.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol, without the liberal thinking of men like G.Washington, T.Jefferson, etc - we'd still be a British colony Benidict Arnold was a conservative conservative/liberal are NOTHING but comparatives. they are NOT ideologies the liberal Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross by conservatives. every move forward made by humans was due to liberal thinking. had we listened to conservatives, we'd still be swinging in the trees. but - yes - not all ideas are good ones. in fact - most are not. and that is the hard part. yes, it is an easy cowardly thing to just say no to everything. of course.

No offense, but this goes on the list as one of the dumbest things said this week.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: No offense, but this goes on the list as one of the dumbest things said this week.

that is because you mistakenly use conservative/liberal as ideologies, and not comparatives

try picturing 1975 Russia. Communist, right? would the russian conservatives be for or against communism? they would be FOR communism - because that is "no change". a russian liberal would be seeking something OTHER than communism.

maybe a better way to say this on a car forum:
your car is running at 150*. is it running hot or cold?
it is running cold.
would you pour that COLD 150* water on you? of course not.
hot/vold are comparatives. not absolutes.
context is key

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 07-01-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: that is because you mistakenly use conservative/liberal as ideologies, and not comparatives try picturing 1975 Russia. Communist, right? would the russian conservatives be for or against communism? they would be FOR communism - because that is "no change". a russian liberal would be seeking something OTHER than communism. maybe a better way to say this on a car forum: your car is running at 150*. is it running hot or cold? it is running cold. would you pour that COLD 150* water on you? of course not. hot/vold are comparatives. not absolutes. context is key

Ok, well if you want to get into the world of semantics and your not making a direct comparison, then i guess I cant really argue that one.