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Unions are no longer needed because of laws, and OSHA ya right. by 84fiero123
Started on: 06-29-2011 08:35 PM
Replies: 18
Last post by: Pyrthian on 06-30-2011 09:33 AM
84fiero123
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Report this Post06-29-2011 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
Tell that to those who lost loved ones at the Massey Energy Company's Upper Big Branch mine.

We have had this discussion before. Unions are out dated, no longer needed because of OSHA and laws now protect worker better than unions. They are no longer needed RIGHT. Those of you who are so blinded to the reality of the REAL world and think they are right. Why don’t you read this.


Feds: Mine faked reports before fatal W.Va. blast
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Jun 29, 12:46 PM (ET)

By TIM HUBER and VICKI SMITH
BEAVER, W.Va. (AP) - Coal company managers pressured miners to generate a second set of reports omitting chronic safety problems to mislead inspectors before an underground explosion killed 29 men last year, federal regulators said Tuesday.
Kevin Stricklin, coal administrator for the Mine Safety and Health Administration, said top management at the Upper Big Branch mine was required to countersign safety inspection books that collect miners' daily reports on conditions. The mine was owned by Massey Energy until Alpha Natural Resources bought its rival this month.
"The investigation team concluded that the managers were aware that chronic hazardous conditions were not recorded," he said during a briefing on the federal investigation. Testimony from some of the 266 witnesses MSHA has interviewed also "indicated that management pressured examiners to not record hazards in the books."
Federal investigators first revealed they had found two sets of books - one focused on safety, the other on production - during a private meeting with the victims' families Tuesday night. It's one of the few revelations to come from the ninth briefing since the investigation began last summer into the deadliest U.S. coalfield disaster in four decades.
Alpha Natural Resources spokesman Ted Pile said Wednesday the company was hearing about the faked reports for the first time.
"It's a claim I'm sure we'll look into as we conduct our own review of what happened," Pile said in an email to The Associated Press.
In a public briefing Wednesday, Stricklin showed side-by-side comparisons of records that purported to document the same shift on three different dates in the month before the accident. In each case, the official book that inspectors would have seen showed few, if any, hazards, while the production reports indicated various problems with faulty machinery, explosive methane gas and bad roof conditions.
"If a coal mine wants to keep two sets of books, that's their own business," Stricklin said. "They can keep five sets of books if they want. But what they're required to do is list all the hazards in the official book.
"This is the book that not only MSHA looks at ... but it should be the book that miners and other people who are going into the mine should look at so they would be aware of any conditions in the mine before they go in," Stricklin said.
On April 5, 2010, the day of the blast, a pre-shift inspection report identified very few hazards. But Stricklin says other documents showed six of 10 conveyor belts needed to be coated with pulverized limestone to prevent coal dust from exploding, and five belts needed cleaning.
Bobbie Pauley, the only woman who worked underground at Upper Big Branch, said she was not surprised by MSHA's revelation.
"You put in an inspection report what you wanted the inspectors to see," said Pauley, who lost fiance Howard "Boone" Payne in the blast.
"Zero, zero, zero deters MSHA from coming back. If they see a potential problem recorded in a book, then they're going to come back and investigate it time after time after time," she said. "Well, no coal operator wants to be pounded by MSHA every day.
Pauley returned to Upper Big Branch only briefly after the explosion and now works aboveground at another former Massey operation bought out by Alpha. She was among some 200 people attending Wednesday's briefing.
MSHA has drafted its final report but told victims' families it likely won't be delivered until October.
The explosion also remains the subject of a criminal investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice, and MSHA has said it won't release some information to avoid hindering that probe. It largely reiterated its past public statements, offering more detail but no new theories.
So far, only one Massey employee has been indicted. Security chief Hughie Stover is charged with three federal crimes for allegedly lying to the FBI and MSHA and obstructing justice by ordering a subordinate to throw away thousands of pages of security documents from the mine.
MSHA contends the explosion started with a small, naturally occurring release of methane or natural gas that was then fueled by coal dust into a devastating inferno that tore through the mine in a series of explosions over a few minutes. The agency has blamed a poorly maintained cutting head on a piece of mining equipment for sparking the blast and a malfunctioning water sprayer for failing to douse it.
An independent investigation commissioned by former Gov. Joe Manchin reached the same conclusion last month.
That study accused Massey of ignoring the most basic safety practices in the industry, allowing highly explosive coal dust and methane gas to accumulate, and failing to provide either enough fresh air flow or enough pulverized limestone on the mine's walls to render coal dust inert.

http://apnews.excite.com/ar...10629/D9O5LDU01.html


And this,

Fatalities Higher at Non-Union Mines—Like Massey’s Upper Big Branch
Thomas Jones (L), a coal miner, participates in a candelight vigil in Whitesville, West Va., on April 7 for the 25 miners that were killed in an explosion two days earlier at the Upper Big Branch coal mine owned by Massey Energy Company. (Photo by SAUL LOEB/AFP/Getty Images)
Buried deep in most stories about the West Virginia coal mine disaster at Massey Energy Company's Upper Big Branch mine, if mentioned at all, is one clue to why at least 25 lives were lost: The mine was non-union.
Miners die in unionized as well as non-union mines, of course. And Massey's record of safety violations, penalties, and smaller-scale accidents suggests its management philosophy and practices contributed to the lethal incident, despite the company's claim that its safety performance has improved. Ultimately, official investigations will pinpoint precisely what went wrong.
But an examination of the incidence of coal mine fatalities since 1995 shows that in every year but one fatal accidents occurred in non-union mines at a rate disproportionate–usually much more disproportionate–to the non-union share of the workforce. In other words, unionized mines were much safer.
It would be ideal to compare fatalities per thousand hours worked in union and non-union mines, but those data appear to be unavailable. The United Mine Workers of America (UMWA) has tallied fatalities–noting whether they occurred in underground, surface, open pit, preparation plant or other facilities and whether the workers were UMWA members, non-UMWA workers, non-UMWA contractors, or "company personnel."
And Unionstats.com–maintained by Barry Hirsch of Georgia State University and David Macpherson of Trinity University–uses Census data to determine annually the share of each industry that is unionized.
Looking at these data, only in 2001 were there disproportionately more fatalities (39 percent) in union mines (unions represented 30 percent of coal miners that year) than in non-union mines. Recent figures are more typical. In 2006 through 2009 union mines accounted for 10, 6, 10 and 5 percent, respectively, of all coal mine deaths, but over that period unions represented 15 to 22 percent of coal miners. For those years unionized miners appear to have been one-fourth to one-half as likely to be killed in mine incidents as their non-union peers.
In some other years, union mines are only slightly more safe than non-union, but overall the trend is for union mines to be about twice as safe, as indicated by fatalities. (Fatalities, which can't be easily covered over, are a reliable safety indicator, much more than injuries, since non-union mines often cover up or fail to report injuries.)
The bad news is that union representation is down dramatically. In 1996, for example, 42 percent of miners were in unions. In 2009 only 20 percent belonged to a union.
Tougher enforcement of laws, with higher penalties, and stronger safety standards are essential. But unionized miners have the power to enforce those standards before there's an accident, and they can prevent the speed-ups, overwork, and shortcuts that are common in non-union mines, like Upper Big Branch, and that contribute to the dangers of the job.
If Congress and Obama want to do something to save miners' lives, they should first of all protect and strengthen their right to organize.

http://www.inthesetimes.com...ys_upper_big_branch/

Still say unions are no longer needed. Now I am not saying there is no corruption in unions. There is in many but you people need to see reality. The reality that cost lives.

Steve


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Report this Post06-29-2011 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carnut122Send a Private Message to carnut122Direct Link to This Post
yep, I read an article about the SPAM plant that had vaporized pig brains that made the workers sick. Hormel fired six of them rather than have to deal with the results of an unhealthy work environment. Not so surprisingly, about half of them were illegal aliens, so they got the double whammy.

[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 06-29-2011).]

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Report this Post06-29-2011 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Never mind. Getting into this won't change anything one way or another. BTW, as your article clearly states, MSHA is the authority for mining, not OSHA.

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Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-29-2011).]

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84fiero123
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Report this Post06-29-2011 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

Never mind. Getting into this won't change anything one way or another. BTW, as your article clearly states, MSHA is the authority for mining, not OSHA.


Ether one is a gov entity that is supposed to protect workers. And they didn’t in this case now did they?

Steve

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Report this Post06-29-2011 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Ether one is a gov entity that is supposed to protect workers. And they didn’t in this case now did they?

Steve



So if I find a case where union workers were killed because the union officials were breaking the law - that would prove unions need to be abolished, right? Or does it only work if it supports your viewpoint?
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Report this Post06-29-2011 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Ether one is a gov entity that is supposed to protect workers. And they didn’t in this case now did they?

Steve



Based on what you have posted, that would be correct. If the Union or the individual won't stand up, it makes OSHA's and MSHA's jobs very difficult. Having worked in OSHA, I can tell you first hand about how hard it is to actually do something if employee's won't stand up and tell the truth. I've heard lies both in favor of the company and against the company. Having a Union has little to do with having a back bone or integrity. Again, I am not against unions as a whole but, I am against bad union leadership. I've seen way too much of that.

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Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-29-2011).]

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Report this Post06-29-2011 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
Steve, when it comes to unions, I think you enjoy putting a target on yourself more then I do about................well, about ANYTHING!
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Report this Post06-29-2011 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
To many people here and elsewhere believe that unions are outdated, no longer needed because the laws protect workers. The government regulators, OSHA, MSHA, and all the rest are your protectors. They do help but you can not really believe it with stories like this coming out.

Companies fabricating records to keep regulators away. Companies sending workers into harms way by telling them things are safe is never going to stop as long as the money is there.

Workers in non union workplaces are afraid to report wrong doings by companies because the can, will and are fired just because they are whistle blowers.

Steve

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Report this Post06-30-2011 08:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fformula88Send a Private Message to Fformula88Direct Link to This Post
So is the implication that we should sleep easily at night without unions because our workers rights are being protected by the government?

If so, then why don't we all feel good about the government looking after our retirements, or our health care?

I am not saying this to support unions in their present form with this. Just that I am skeptical of relying on the goverment honestly looking out for workers best interests.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post06-30-2011 08:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
No sh!t, let the government take care of us. They do such a great job. Keeping us safe, don’t they. The abuses of Americans by our own government are legendary.

We are always told the truth by our government.

RIGHT. BS.

Steve

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Report this Post06-30-2011 08:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Workers in non union workplaces are afraid to report wrong doings by companies because the can, will and are fired just because they are whistle blowers.

Steve



Can we agree that not all companies are bad and that not all unions are bad or good? Can we agree that some companies and employees lie, some tell the truth? Can we agree that some companies and some unions have bad leadership, some have good leadership? Can we agree that a company's primary goal is to make money for it's owners and/or shareholders and not to simply provide jobs, pay and benefits to it's employees?

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Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-30-2011).]

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Report this Post06-30-2011 08:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Can we agree that not all companies are bad and that not all unions are bad or good? Can we agree that some companies and employees lie, some tell the truth? Can we agree that some companies and some unions have bad leadership, some have good leadership? Can we agree that a company's primary goal is to make money for it's owners and/or shareholders and not to simply provide jobs, pay and benefits to it's employees?


Just how many people have to be permanently disabled or killed to get those profits to those shareholders?

The rest I agree with. But when a company doesn’t care how many die just for those profits is that just,

“The cost of doing business?”

Steve

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Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post06-30-2011 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Steve,
It takes two to have a discussion. It also helps if they both try to open their minds up to consider the opposing person's view point. As I said in my first post, Never Mind, this discussion won't change anything.

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Report this Post06-30-2011 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaDirect Link to This Post
I seriously doubt that Unions would have made the Massey Mines any safer, but if Unions will want to be part of the future of this country in the Private Sector they are going to have to update themselves to the 21st Century.

But most Unions are ran by political ideologues and exploitative thugs, so I don't think their future is going to go well.

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Report this Post06-30-2011 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
Believe what you like. Read the second article I posted about the workers hurt in non union mines vs. union mines.

Steve

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Report this Post06-30-2011 09:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:

..............

But most Unions are ran by political ideologues and exploitative thugs, so I don't think their future is going to go well.


And to be honest...aren't businesses the same Wichita?
And keeping Ínvestors´happy'???? Investors has become a word from the past, to be relpaced by 'speculators', IMHO.
I wonder just how many 'investment`' in businesses stay put for more than a year? Markets and share indexes are lead almost exclusively NOW by speculators not investors. And because they invest and withdraw their money at will, it is no wonder there is such instability in Commerce and business investment nowadays.,
I still believe that taxes on investments should be at minimum 50% on investments withdrawn, and interest collected with less than a 5 year lifespan. That would lead to more prudent INVESTMENT, and destroy SPECULATION. Or in other words...GAMBLING. Or at LEAST make speculation profitable for TAX-PAYERS. It would also lead to a stability, missing for years, in pension fund investments.
Gambling is fine and dandy in MY book, so long as the gambler loses HIS money alone, and doesn't affect the stability of others' INVESTMENTS.
Nick
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Report this Post06-30-2011 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WichitaSend a Private Message to WichitaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Believe what you like. Read the second article I posted about the workers hurt in non union mines vs. union mines.

Steve



Yeah I know. Again! If it were unionized it wouldn't have been any safer. Unions have ceased to care about workplace safety many, many years ago.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post06-30-2011 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
Yeah I know. Again! If it were unionized it wouldn't have been any safer. Unions have ceased to care about workplace safety many, many years ago.


 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

But an examination of the incidence of coal mine fatalities since 1995 shows that in every year but one fatal accidents occurred in non-union mines at a rate disproportionate–usually much more disproportionate–to the non-union share of the workforce. In other words, unionized mines were much safer.
http://www.inthesetimes.com...ys_upper_big_branch/

Still say unions are no longer needed. Now I am not saying there is no corruption in unions. There is in many but you people need to see reality. The reality that cost lives.

Steve



The numbers speak for themselves.

Steve

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and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.

Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post06-30-2011 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
if workers could be kept as slaves, they would be
and we see how easily the laws can be changed
the minute they can - they will - and the places they already can - they do
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