Life is tough, being stupid makes it even tougher.

I have absolutely no sympathy for those that drive drunk. Yes, that would include family. As I said, life is tough enough without be stupid.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Some words that come to mine while reading some replies in this thread: Brutal Feral Indifferent Callous Cold Inhuman Just words that popped into my head...

I wholeheartedly agree.

What is brutal about learning from the mistakes of others? A guy drove drunk. A guy killed himself and another. If you can't learn from that, then...

"Oh, cool. Ryan Dunn went driving while intoxicated! Just awesome man. Let's go do it also."

Or this?...

"What a dick that Ryan Dunn guy was for killing his buddy?!"

I know which statement comes to mind when looking at my son. I will go with the latter. Those of you that want to forgive, then so be it, but why would I live my life like yours? I am fully capable of understanding the ramifications of my actions, and that is why I do not drink and drive. I do not need forgiveness, and damn sure not going to supply it to a killer.

Like I said earlier, I was a fan of his. Was? The guy decided to go a different route, and I am not a follower. I have the free will to hate folks like him, even after I used to enjoy his semantics.

Sad story, but hopefully someone will learn from it. We are always told to learn from your mistakes. Well, let's learn from this, now shall we?

Tony

People die every single minute--good people and bad people. The only reason everyone on the planet doesn't grieve constantly is because they simply don'tknow about them. This guy was a celebrity of sorts, had some fans who thought he was cool for being jackass, but in the end he really didn't give a crap who he killed or how many.
That's the epitome of
Callous.
Indifferent.
Unfeeling.
Brutal.

It's this kind of person that the states prosecute and put a needle in their arm.

Go ahead--play your violins for him. Wah Wah Wah.
I'll grieve for those innocents who desereve my attention--not a drunken murderer.

quote It only takes one aww **** to cancel a lifetime of attaboys

See Dick drink
See Dick drive
See Dick die
Don't be a dick.

Everybody is making it sound like this guy made a mistake. No. He made a CHOICE. He started his drinking night out knowing that he was going to drive. He CHOSE to kill himself and his friend. The alcohol did not make his Porsche speed or go off the road, Ryan Dunn did. Is it a shame he and his passenger are dead? Yes. But I have no sympathy for drunk drivers whatsoever, but I do feel for his family and friends.

I would bet that more then a few people posting here have drank-&-drove.
Or stole.
Or cheated.
Or lied.
Or sped.
Or trespassed.
Or hit a woman.
Or done something criminal or stupid at a moment in your life.

Is that how you want others to only think of you as or remember you for?
That was your defining moment?
That was who you were?

I always wondered why I felt so alone.
It appears becouse I am.
I posess the capicity to feel sorrow for the whole of the tragedy.
The victims, the families, the friends, the people that loved them, the workers that had to clean up the mess, the doctors that had to declare another preventable time-of-death, and even the mortician that had to put another body in the ground before it's time.

I have all that capacity.
And really no heart for hate.
Just sorrow.

And I believe mine is the better way.
Surly the Christains posting here feel the same?:

It is not uncommon for Christians to have questions about forgiveness. Forgiveness does not come easy for most of us. Our natural instinct is to recoil in self-protection when we've been injured. We don't naturally overflow with mercy, grace and forgiveness when we've been wronged.

Is forgiveness a conscious choice, a physical act involving the will, or is it a feeling, an emotional state of being? The Bible offers insight and answers to these and many more common questions about forgiveness. We'll take a look at the most common questions and find out what the Bible says about forgiveness.

Is forgiveness a conscious choice, or an emotional state?
I believe forgiveness is a choice we make through a decision of our will, motivated by obedience to God and his command to forgive.
The Bible instructs us to forgive as the Lord forgave us:

Colossians 3:13 ~ Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

How do we forgive when we don't feel like it? How do we translate the decision to forgive into a change of heart?
We forgive by faith, out of obedience. Since forgiveness goes against our nature, we must forgive by faith, whether we feel like it or not. We must trust God to do the work in us that needs to be done so that the forgiveness will be complete.
I believe God honors our commitment to obey Him and our desire to please him when we choose to forgive. He completes the work in his time. We must continue to forgive (our job), by faith, until the work of forgiveness (the Lord's job), is done in our hearts.

Philippians 1:6 ~ And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

How will we know if we have truly forgiven?
Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian woman who survived a Nazi concentration camp during the Holocaust, said, "Forgiveness is to set a prisoner free, and to realize the prisoner was you."

We will know the work of forgiveness is complete when we experience the freedom that comes as a result. We are the ones who suffer most when we choose not to forgive. When we do forgive, the Lord sets our hearts free from the anger, bitterness, resentment and hurt that previously imprisoned us.

Most times, however, forgiveness is a slow process.

Matthew 18:21-22 ~ Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

This answer by Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is not easy for us. It's not a one-time choice and then we automatically live in a state of forgiveness. Forgiveness may require a lifetime of forgiving, but it is important to the Lord. We must continue forgiving until the matter is settled in our heart.

What if the person we need to forgive is not a believer?
I have found that prayer is one of the best ways to break down the wall of unforgiveness in my heart. When I begin to pray for the person who has wronged me, God gives me new eyes to see and a new heart to care for that person. As I pray, I start to see that person as God sees them, and I realize that he or she is precious to the Lord. I also see myself in a new light, just as guilty of sin and failure as the other person. I too am in need of forgiveness. If God did not withhold his forgiveness from me, why should I withhold my forgiveness from another?

Is it okay to feel anger and want justice for the person we need to forgive?
This question presents another reason to pray for the person we need to forgive. We can pray for God to deal with the injustices, for God to judge the person's life, and then we can leave that prayer at the altar. We no longer have to carry the anger. Although it is normal for us to feel anger toward sin and injustice, it is not our job to judge the other person in their sin.

Luke 6:37 ~ Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Why must we forgive?
The best reason to forgive is because Jesus commanded us to forgive. We learn from Scripture, if we don't forgive, neither will we be forgiven:

Matthew 6:14-16 ~ For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

We also forgive so that our prayers will not be hindered:
Mark 11:25 ~ And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

In summary and in closing, we forgive out of obedience to the Lord. It is a choice, a decision we make. However, as we do this "forgiving," we discover the command is in place for our own good, and we receive the reward of our forgiveness—freedom.

http://christianity.about.c.../bibleforgivenes.htm

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 06-21-2011).]

Trespasing, petty larceny, lying etc usually don't result in the taking of life and putting untold #s of others at the risk of losing theirs. History remembers Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and Hitler for their dispicable deeds, even tho that portion of their life may have been short lived. Aww shits outweigh attaboys every day of the weed, and you can shed a tear for all the John Wayne Gacys of the world while you're at it.
He was a jackass on screen and off evidently, taking his friend's life with his own. Yeah, he was a real funny murderer.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Is that how you want others to only think of you as or remember you for? That was your defining moment? That was who you were?

Some people believe Ryan Dunn's "defining moment" was when he stuck that toy car up his ass, just to get a laugh.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I have all that capacity. And really no heart for hate. Just sorrow. And I believe mine is the better way.

And who had to self-medicate for 30 years?

Boonie, I like you very much, but I think you're way off base in your sentiments expressed for this guy.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: And who had to self-medicate for 30 years? .

And that means what to this thread?
How does that relate to my capacity for forgiveness?

Or was it just an attempt to minimize my statement or discredit my opinion on the subject?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Or was it just an attempt to minimize my statement or discredit my opinion on the subject?

No, I'm simply suggesting perhaps you be might be a bit more selective who you wish to bleed for. Would be a whole lot easier on your system.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: No, I'm simply suggesting perhaps you be might be a bit more selective who you wish to bleed for. Would be a whole lot easier on your system.

Thats pretty low.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: No, I'm simply suggesting perhaps you be might be a bit more selective who you wish to bleed for. Would be a whole lot easier on your system.

That is what you & others keep misreading into my posts; I am NOT bleeding for this guy.
Or worshiping him, or putting him on a pedestal, or holding a vigil for him.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Trespasing, petty larceny, lying etc usually don't result in the taking of life and putting untold #s of others at the risk of losing theirs. History remembers Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and Hitler for their dispicable deeds, even tho that portion of their life may have been short lived. Aww shits outweigh attaboys every day of the weed, and you can shed a tear for all the John Wayne Gacys of the world while you're at it. He was a jackass on screen and off evidently, taking his friend's life with his own. Yeah, he was a real funny murderer.

The death of his friend was unintentional but Dunn made the decisions that caused it. It was a horrible accident. He was a jackass all the way but many people still liked him. My younger brother will probably end up dieing the same way as Dunn's friend, he looses the little common sense he has when he drinks. On Saturday he partied, came home, passed out and stopped breathing. He was saved because he was being monitored after he passed out in the wrong room. Whether he dies of alcohol poisoning or in a car wreck I will blame him first, not the people serving a 19 year old alcohol or the driver. Others in my family will blame everyone else involved.
Where is he right now?
Getting wasted.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: That is what you & others keep misreading into my posts...

What can I say, Boonie? The fact that it's more than one of us who's having this apparent problem, and that it's occurring repeatedly, suggests to me that you're just not explaining yourself very well then!

Kris, that video makes me feel even more sick for the human race. The fans stealing parts to the car, and even putting stuff on Ebay right now! Just disgusting.

No where in that video did anyone mention anything about not driving drunk. I feel sorry for the friends and family, but having fans pilfer the area of anything tied to this tragedy.... just sick.

I cannot change my opinion of what Ryan's selfless act created, but to answer Boonie's question...

I was convicted of stealing car radios at 17 years old.
I play poker, and no, I have never cheated.
I have told lies.
I have sped.
I have not tresspassed.
I HAVE NEVER HIT A WOMAN THAT DID NOT DESERVE IT! (I hit a friends baby momma when I was 31. She was coked up, and threw her two week old baby across the room to Pete. The child flew about 18 feet, and before Pete caught him, i cold cracked this broad right in the jaw. She went to sleep before she hit the floor. The bitche's brother was standing to my right, and even he enjoyed hearing my fist strike her jaw!)
I have done something criminal or stupid before.
I have never driven drunk.

Of all of your questions, I have never killed anyone. Being remembered for killing a friend is Ryan's thing. Not mine. I am glad that you can forgive, but I cannot.

That makes me think of this... "My baby is a good boy!", as he is convicted of murder. Just because someone loves him, doesn't make it ok. All the forgiveness in the world cannot bring back life.

Tony

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I don't know you at all, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, I know Boonie pretty well from all his posts here over the years. I quite like him, although that doesn't require me to agree with him in every discussion. Please explain just what it was I said to Boonie that you consider "pretty low", and why. I'm genuinely curious.

I said what I said in reference to your comment "it would be easier on your system". I saw it as a personal attack against Boondawg, because you referenced his substance issues the post before hand.

I feel that a personal is unnecessary and pretty low, considering the issue in this thread.

If I misunderstood that statement, and it wasn't a personal attack, I'm sorry.

quote Originally posted by BlackEmrald: I said what I said in reference to your comment "it would be easier on your system". I saw it as a personal attack against Boondawg, because you referenced his substance issues the post before hand. I feel that a personal is unnecessary and pretty low, considering the issue in this thread. If I misunderstood that statement, and it wasn't a personal attack, I'm sorry.

Boonie loves to give us little snippets into his life. He gives us enough to intrigue us, but not enough to explain why he is what he is. It's none of our business anyway, so I'm not asking for those personal details, but we can't help but be left wondering what it is that drives our Boonie.

Recently, Boonie responded Here to something I had asked, and he mentioned the three decades of his self-medicating. This isn't the first time (not by a long shot) that this has come out in Boonie's posts.

People who self-medicate are usually trying to numb the pain, either physical or emotional. I suspect it's no doubt emotional pain that Boonie has tried for years to push into the background. Reading this current thread, it's obvious that Boonie feels sorrow, feels pain over the death of some guy who many of us think very little of. Boonie even expressed his opinion that his way of dealing with this death was somehow superior to how the rest of us feel about the situation.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I have all that capacity. And really no heart for hate. Just sorrow. And I believe mine is the better way.

Is it really the "better way" when it results in (or at least adds to) decades of struggling to deal with emotional anguish? Sorry, but I suspect most of us would prefer to deal with life (and death) in a manner that doesn't require us to tune out on a regular or continual basis.

BlackEmrald, the comments of mine that you've referenced here were simply my way (blunt as they were) of telling Boonie that he makes it much more difficult for himself (for his "system") by investing so much emotional energy into the death of a complete stranger, a complete stranger who hardly died an honorable death.

There are plenty of decent people who die every day. Among them are wonderful, inspiring, extraordinary people who have touched others in profound ways during their lifetimes. I suggest we save our tears for them.

I definitely was NOT making a personal attack on Boonie. I just hate to see our forum friend suffering (especially in this situation) for so little reason.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-22-2011).]

I just googled the news story and look what people are already making.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Of all of your questions, I have never killed anyone. Being remembered for killing a friend is Ryan's thing. Not mine. I am glad that you can forgive, but I cannot. That makes me think of this... "My baby is a good boy!", as he is convicted of murder. Just because someone loves him, doesn't make it ok. All the forgiveness in the world cannot bring back life. Tony

Well said Tony. But, I too have never killed anyone myself. I don't play poker. Never hit a woman. I have trespassed, sped (usually below 5mph, but 5mph can't effect another's timing judgement that bad, you see me or you don't [and driving too slow can be worse]), everyone has lied at least once (so yes I have), and when I was 18 - I too was caught stealing car stereos (but only had to pay for a camera as it was only hard evidence).

I have never done anything to kill anyone or that would cause a POSSIBLE near death or extreme harm. I can forgive anyone for anything. May take longer for certain things - even if they killed my wife. I'd scream for months, but to ultimately get over it - their death wouldn't help. It'd be forgiveness.
Just as the guy I stole the camera from. He said pay for what you stole, and no charges pressed, which was the turning point in my wrong doing.
Forgiveness is the key man. It's hard but it's where the good stuff is at.


And Boondawg - I would never put drinking and driving up to par with even hitting a woman unless you were like straight up punching the **** outta her (till death).
Or any of those other wrong doings. They don't kill. Not even accidentally really...
-Unless, while stealing a dresser, you lay a mirror on the floor - the owner walks in the next morning and trips over the mirror and dies? But that's like a 1 in a billion chance.

As people, we put killing on the highest platform possible.
Actually, many people consider rape to be worse, but whatever.

So your average person isn't going to see those on the same level really.
I feel like when I try to put fear in anyone who drinks and drives, I may just stop them from killing someone.
Friends, family, even someone I see who can barely get in their car at a local pub or something.
- They don't want to kill someone while driving, they just want to get home. But killing happens.
- Just like no one wants to hate you for smashing their mom at 50mph while you're drunk, but it happens.

I forgive my sister for driving drunk. She does what she does, but I don't want her to have to learn the hard way. Whether she gets caught or hits someone. My rage is only to show her (or even Ryan supporters) how wrong it is. How much I disagree with it. Etc.
It does kill often, and as a human I naturally put it on the highest tier of wrong doings.

quote Originally posted by Val_Evans: I just googled the news story and look what people are already making.

Mr Dunn had a GT3.......
Ryan Dunn is now a internet Meme.

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: Mr Dunn had a GT3....... Ryan Dunn is now a internet Meme.

Anyone remember that limo he built to beat Bam's Ferrari? With Don Vito in the back :P

Edit: here's the video :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL6A1NS3W1M

[This message has been edited by chriswf (edited 06-22-2011).]

Chriswf... well said.

I am not telling anyone not to forgive, just that it is not a requirement in my life. I am able to live on... and so will you all.

I am more than willing to give my shirt form my back for those in need, but at the same time, I am just as easily able to kick a meth head in the teeth.

Tony

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: kick a meth head in the teeth. Tony

What teeth?

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: What teeth?

HAHA I got a junkie in my family.
And she has no teeth.
Or morals/self respect.

Actually, I used to work for a wireless ISP. 5.8?ghz radios and 2.4 ghz radios. Out in the trees of the Lavon/Copeville area here in Texas... There would be TONS of meth lab trailers, where no one would necessarily live in it. But they would just visit to harvest meth. They'd catch on fire or blow up all the time. The ONLY thing the neighbors did to help, was spray the giant propane tanks down with water so they don't explode and level surrounding homes.

I watched a couple burn in my time working for that ISP. I saw smoke coming from them on several occasions though.
There's no police for Copeville, so no one patrols those areas to punish meth heads and meth dealers.

[This message has been edited by chriswf (edited 06-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Hulki U. My-BFF: See Dick drink See Dick drive See Dick die Don't be a dick. Everybody is making it sound like this guy made a mistake. No. He made a CHOICE. He started his drinking night out knowing that he was going to drive. He CHOSE to kill himself and his friend. The alcohol did not make his Porsche speed or go off the road, Ryan Dunn did. Is it a shame he and his passenger are dead? Yes. But I have no sympathy for drunk drivers whatsoever, but I do feel for his family and friends.

This is precisely how I feel. I've even met most of the Jackass group, they're pretty cool - albeit rather unbalanced. Doesn't mean I'll defend one of them choosing to drink, drive, and do 130 into a ditch. He made the choice, his passenger made the choice to tag along, and now they've received the consequences. I just feel bad for the families who are suffering the loss of a loved one over Dunn's poor decision.

quote Originally posted by chriswf: Forgiveness is the key man. It's hard but it's where the good stuff is at.

Well said.

Just found this... (Another disclaimer... While I don't condone drunk driving, I do feel sad for the families.) Oh yeah, and FAQ westboro church!



Tony

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Boonie loves to give us little snippets into his life. He gives us enough to intrigue us, but not enough to explain why he is what he is. It's none of our business anyway, so I'm not asking for those personal details, but we can't help but be left wondering what it is that drives our Boonie.

This is strange to me.
I would bet I have shared more personal stuff about myself then anyone else here.
I would bet on it.
Explane why I am what I am?
I would say I have been more publicly open & probing here, exploring that very thing.
And cut myself very little slack in doing so.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Recently, Boonie responded Here to something I had asked, and he mentioned the three decades of his self-medicating. This isn't the first time (not by a long shot) that this has come out in Boonie's posts. People who self-medicate are usually trying to numb the pain, either physical or emotional. I suspect it's no doubt emotional pain that Boonie has tried for years to push into the background.

Although i'm not quite sure just what that pain consists of, or when it started or where it comes from, I would guess that those hidden answers are what i was self-medicating against.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Reading this current thread, it's obvious that Boonie feels sorrow, feels pain over the death of some guy who many of us think very little of.

I was not speaking about sorrow or pain over his particular death.
Only that I do posess that ability.
And that I can feel forgiveness for his actions and that I can wish that he may Rest In Peace.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Boonie even expressed his opinion that his way of dealing with this death was somehow superior to how the rest of us feel about the situation. Is it really the "better way" when it results in (or at least adds to) decades of struggling to deal with emotional anguish? Sorry, but I suspect most of us would prefer to deal with life (and death) in a manner that doesn't require us to tune out on a regular or continual basis.

Better for me was all I ment.
Hate and condemnation only weighs me down.
It binds me in negitive energy, and bleeds over into other aspects in my life.
It colors me.
It is far too easy, and therefore makes me suspisious of it.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I definitely was NOT making a personal attack on Boonie. I just hate to see our forum friend suffering (especially in this situation) for so little reason.

I am not suffering.
Well, maybe I am in the fact that I wish people could try to see what I am trying to say.
It is nothing I have not said before.
And I never said anyone was wrong for their opinion on this subject or that they had no right to feel the way they do.
But I wish they would atleast grant me the same privilage without stating that I support the people & actions that lead to these useless deaths.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 06-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: . And I never said anyone was wrong for their opinion on this subject or that they had no right to feel the way they do. But I wish they would atleast grant me the same privilage without stating that I support the people & actions that lead to these useless deaths.

I hear ya. It does seem that if we don't forgive, then we are the ones slated for damnation. Just how I am reading your posts. Perhaps the internet translator is down?

The second line goes both ways. I do feel sad for the families and friends involved, but I cannot feel sorry for Ryan. Choices brother, choices...

Tony

Saw on the news tonight that this guy's blood alcohol content was 1.9 +. Couple of beers my ass.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: . It does seem that if we don't forgive, then we are the ones slated for damnation. Just how I am reading your posts. Perhaps the internet translator is down?

I am not religious.
I was only reminding those that are of what their guidebook sez.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I am not religious. I was only reminding those that are of what their guidebook sez.

Hmm, self appointed or did you get that job from someone higher up?

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Hmm, self appointed or did you get that job from someone higher up?

Just a voluntary public service based on my intrest in the subject & on the past spoken insistence of some of the believers here to the impotence of the adherence to the instructions within said guide.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Just a voluntary public service based on my intrest in the subject & on the past spoken insistence of some of the believers here to the impotence of the adherence to the instructions within said guide.

If you're convinced of that, OK. Good enough for me.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: If you're convinced of that, OK. Good enough for me.

Well, as it itself has proven, it is very easy to fool one's self.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Is it really the "better way" when it results in (or at least adds to) decades of struggling to deal with emotional anguish? Sorry, but I suspect most of us would prefer to deal with life (and death) in a manner that doesn't require us to tune out on a regular or continual basis. There are plenty of decent people who die every day. Among them are wonderful, inspiring, extraordinary people who have touched others in profound ways during their lifetimes. I suggest we save our tears for them.

In my view people "tune out" all the time in various ways, substance abuse being just one of many options.

I agree drinking and driving is a terrible thing but that can be included in a long list as well. If a person is under the influence of prescription drugs and drives is it equally as wrong? What if a person works his/her ass off, is tired but drives and falls asleep at the wheel? What if he had been texting and speeding? ...etc

People die young and take others lives all the time but I can't say I wish anyone to experience the loss of another, no matter how it happens.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 06-22-2011).]