Honestly, i have done some stupid crap on a bike and look back and go WTF. Ive calmed down you can say. However if im in the middle of Kansas on a open road im gonna play if no one is around . Im not quite old man biker that likes to see the county side but im not the dude in flip flops doing a 100 though town.
I can respect that... and relate to it.
IP: Logged
03:32 AM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
All I want is an answer to this question: Would the driver of the truck tried to kill the motorcyclist if the motorcyclist had not made an illegal manuver? edit: If I could get a "yes" or "no" to this question, that would be awesome!
That's a good question. I suspect that he still would have. I suspect that the thought to cross into the other lane did not occur to him as an instant reaction and that the no-passing zone had little impact on the truck driver's actions. I suspect that he watched the bike in his rear-view mirror and thought, "I'm gonna play a little 'chicken' when this guy passes me. " In other words, I don't believe the truck drivers actions were reflexive; they were pre-meditative. Of course, that's what I believe-only the truck driver knows for sure, and didn't somebody say that alcohol was his co-pilot?
Driver, Gary L. Hudson Jr, turned himself in, two charges of "wanton endangerment". Authorities considering if they'll cite the rider for crossing the solid yellow. No indication that the authorities will cite the truck driver for the dozens of times he crossed the yellow line.
BROOKSVILLE -- A Pendleton County man has turned himself in to authorities following issuance of an arrest warrant for a May incident on Kentucky 22 in Bracken County.
On June 9, Gary L. Hudson Jr., 22, notified Bracken County Sheriff Howard Niemeier he would be turning himself in when he returned to the state; he did so at about 4 p.m., June 10, police said.
According to Niemeier, Hudson lives in Falmouth, but traveled from Fort Bragg, N.C., to surrender.
According to officials, Hudson is considered "past military" having completed his reservist obligations in April; he was moving from Fort Bragg, police said.
On May 22, Hudson was allegedly involved in an incident involving two motorcycles which were traveling on Kentucky 22 at the same time as Hudson was driving a truck.
Hudson was videotaped swerving across the center line at one cyclist as he attempted to pass the truck Hudson was driving. The action appeared to be deliberate to the motorcyclists who followed the truck to an intersection where a confrontation included calls to police to report the incident.
Hudson has been charged with two counts of wanton endangerment and was taken to Mason County Detention Center.
He was released from MCDC Friday.
Niemeier said he anticipated Hudson being in Bracken County District Court today.
According to Niemeier, officials are looking into whether to file any traffic citations against the motorcyclist, who is seen in the same video, crossing the center solid yellow line before and after the incident.
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-14-2011).]
I guess I wasn't really looking for a specific answer. I just wanted an opinion, he said yes, and gave his reasoning. Can't ask for more than that.
You put a lot of effort into asking this question, and your other posts seem to indicate you were looking for a "no" answer. The reason for this is obvious: You believe that the attack would not have happened if the rider hadn't passed illegally. You believe that because the rider passed illegally he triggered the attack. You believe that as a result the rider bears some if not all responsibility for the attack upon himself. You want others to acknowledge the "trueness" of this belief, thus, repeatedly asking the question you did the way you did to get the answer you wanted to hear.
Originally posted by JazzMan: That about sum it up?
I guess I would have rather asked the question directly to the motorcyclist, in attempt to get him to respond with a "no." Then maybe he would think twice about his next illegal manuver. Its really more of a question to open the motorcyclist's eyes to the consequences that can happen.
The question was more designed to make people think "Oh wow, the less illegal manuvers I make while driving might reduce the chances of something negative happening to me." Really, that's it. If you want to attribute different beliefs to me that's fine. I like your copious amount of smileys lately too, makes you seem friendlier!
And from the article you just posted, I wonder about the legality of charging the riders or the truck driver with the traffic violations (speeding, crossing dbl yellow, NOT the wonton endangerment charge). I was always under the assumption that a cop would actually have to witness the infraction to cite it. (Like me calling the police to say that someone is speeding and swerving down the interstate, the cop would actually have to see that himself, and not rely on my testimony.) But perhaps its a different story when there's videotape evidence.
And if it is a different story with video evidence, can I videotape other drivers breaking the law during my morning commute and then turn them in?
And oh yeah, BUMP for this happy thread!
[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 06-14-2011).]
IP: Logged
02:48 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Driver, Gary L. Hudson Jr, turned himself in, two charges of "wonton endangerment". Authorities considering if they'll cite the rider for crossing the solid yellow. No indication that the authorities will cite the truck driver for the dozens of times he crossed the yellow line.
[/i]
Thanx for the update, Jazz.
IP: Logged
02:51 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
The rider passed illegally. The truck driver illegally 'attacked' the cyclist.
I know people that have motorcycles of all kinds. I cant speak as to all those that have 'sport bikes' but my personal observation is the ones I have had contact with are all arrogant little jerks who think they own or rule everything. I prefer the hard core gang biker with a Harley for a friend.
The question was more designed to make people think "Oh wow, the less illegal manuvers I make while driving might reduce the chances of something negative happening to me." Really, that's it.
The "blame the victim" mentality evident in your words brings to mind this poster:
Remember, each of us is responsible for our own actions, and reactions. Someone else doing something you don't like doesn't make you any less responsible for crimes you commit in response. Really...
IP: Logged
04:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
The rider passed illegally. The truck driver illegally 'attacked' the cyclist.
I know people that have motorcycles of all kinds. I cant speak as to all those that have 'sport bikes' but my personal observation is the ones I have had contact with are all arrogant little jerks who think they own or rule everything. I prefer the hard core gang biker with a Harley for a friend.
That's because the young guys on sport bikes introduce competition for the young girls' attention.
The "blame the victim" mentality evident in your words brings to mind this poster:
I'm not trying to place the blame on the victim. I'm just trying to say, be aware of the consquences that might occur from any actions you take.
I don't go down dark alleyways because there's a higher risk of getting mugged than walking down the sidewalk. I don't make illegal passes because there's a higher risk of an automobile accident.
Its apparent that if you are trying to place "blame" or "fault" against anyone, its all the truck driver's because he couldn't control his reaction.
Instead of my "Would the accident have occurred..." question; can I refrase it to:
Is there greater risk to the motorcyclist making an illegal pass than a rider going the speed limit behind the truck?
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: I'm not trying to place the blame on the victim. I'm just trying to say, be aware of the consquences that might occur from any actions you take.
But the very sentence of yours using the word "consequences" contradicts you.
quote
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: I don't go down dark alleyways because there's a higher risk of getting mugged than walking down the sidewalk. I don't make illegal passes because there's a higher risk of an automobile accident.
Again, you're still saying that the actions of the victim make the victim more "responsible" for being the victim. Is a woman wearing a scandalous outfit more at fault for being raped than a woman dressed like a nun? No, the rapist is the one responsible, nobody else.
quote
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: Its apparent that if you are trying to place "blame" or "fault" against anyone, its all the truck driver's because he couldn't control his reaction.
Instead of my "Would the accident have occurred..." question; can I refrase it to:
Is there greater risk to the motorcyclist making an illegal pass than a rider going the speed limit behind the truck?
There's greater risk of an accident, sure, and if the rider had executed the apparently illegal pass and ran off the road of his own accord then he'd be fully responsible for what happened. If the driver had succeeded in killing the driver the driver would have been 100% at fault because if the driver hadn't chosen to try and kill the rider then the rider wouldn't be dead.
So yes, it's all the truck driver's fault, really, because he, ultimately, is the one that chooses what do do and what not to do. Not the rider, not anyone else on the road, not you, not me, not anyone else.
In my view, and in the view of the laws and legal precedents of this land, there are no cases where a victim is held at fault for being the victim of a crime. Walking down the street at night in a bad neighborhood may be bad judgment on your part, but it's legal, and if you get mugged it's one hundred percent the mugger's fault because he chose to commit the crime.
Honestly, I'm having hard time trying to understand why so many people can't see this, at least as it appears to me, basic fact.
Honestly, I'm having hard time trying to understand why so many people can't see this, at least as it appears to me, basic fact.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time trying to understand why people put themselves in risky situations and expect to get by scot-free.
If I walk out into a live shooting range, and someone puts a bullet through my leg to teach me not to walk out into a live shooting range, I'm totally fine taking some of the responsibility. Not all of it, because it was his action that made me the 'victim' , but my actions caused his. Guess what, I'd think twice about walking into a live shooting range the next time.
I'm sorry my ideologies don't sit well with you.
IP: Logged
06:53 PM
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
Honestly, I'm having a hard time trying to understand why people put themselves in risky situations and expect to get by scot-free.
If I walk out into a live shooting range, and someone puts a bullet through my leg to teach me not to walk out into a live shooting range, I'm totally fine taking some of the responsibility. Not all of it, because it was his action that made me the 'victim' , but my actions caused his. Guess what, I'd think twice about walking into a live shooting range the next time.
I'm sorry my ideologies don't sit well with you.
Not really comparable. If you had walked across the range and the shooters kept shooting like you weren't there, you would have been shot. If that truck driver had kept driving like normal, the bike would have made a safe and clean pass and been on his way, with no problem on anyone's end.
I am one of those people that doesn't equate right and wrong with legal and illegal. Is it legal to cheat on your wife? Sure. Is it right? No. Is it illegal for him to have passed there? Yes. Is it wrong? I think it depends on if he could pull it off safely. Ultimately it doesn't matter, the biker should get his ticket for illegal lane usage or whatever, and the truck driver should get nailed with all 15 counts of illegal lane usage and attempted murder.
Originally posted by TommyRocker: the biker should get his ticket for illegal lane usage or whatever, and the truck driver should get nailed with all 15 counts of illegal lane usage and attempted murder.
Not really comparable. If you had walked across the range and the shooters kept shooting like you weren't there, you would have been shot. If that truck driver had kept driving like normal, the bike would have made a safe and clean pass and been on his way, with no problem on anyone's end.
.
It wouldn't have been a safe pass, it was on a double yellow, in a curve going over a hill. I'm not an expert but to me that would have been a lucky pass.
When I drove a Taxi in New Orleans I would go into the bad parts of town to pick up, or drop off. At night in these bad parts of town a person did not stop at the red lights, stopping there gave people enough time to aim at you, rob you, kill you. I ran every one of them. Did that make it right? No, legal? No. If someone had a stick up their butt about people running red lights in the 9th ward, and started trying to kill people that ran them, and someone tried to ram my Taxi because I ran a red light, I would have been party too blame. That doesn't mean either party would be right, just that I would be partly to blame. If I didn't run the red light, the imaginary person I made up would not have went after me.
Nothing about what happened to the motorcyclist is right here, at all. BUT as Mom would say. If I hadn't been running with druggies, and thieves, the cops would not have arrested me thinking I was one too.
There is a cause and effect for (literally) everything we do in life. Everything. That doesn't mean that the effect is always right, legal, nice, or that you will agree with it. But no matter what happens on this Earth, it will effect the outcome of something else. Be it a gang member shooting at me because I am driving too slow, a cop giving me a ticket because I am going too fast, or a douche in KY running a motorcycle off the road. Everything is the effect of something else.
I'm willing to bet that at some point in the past some rider on a crotch rocket pissed this guy off. I know I have had many riders on crotch rockets do things that piss me off very much, I'm not going to start trying to kill anyone over it though.
It's like becoming a Hells Angel, and then getting mad because you get arrested in a raid. Sure, you probably did nothing wrong, but after awhile the cops just see the patches, and nothing else. People no longer see a rider, and a motorcycle, they see an idiot on a crotchrocket, they expect him to constantly rev his engine, make a lot of noise, weave in and out of traffic, pop wheelies, cut people off, and create general confusion wherever they go. I know I expect it, and aside from a few exceptions, have always been proven right.
Today a guy on a Harley left my Uncles Motorcycle shop, and I followed him out of town, a pickup truck swerved at him coming the other direction, and he never saw it. Nobody hit anybody else, the truck was trying to scare him. Really messed up world we live in.
Please note, I think that the driver of the truck was very wrong here, and had this been witnessed by a Police officer, he would be sitting in jail right now waiting for trial.
Brad
IP: Logged
03:59 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Honestly, I'm having a hard time trying to understand why people put themselves in risky situations and expect to get by scot-free.
If I walk out into a live shooting range, and someone puts a bullet through my leg to teach me not to walk out into a live shooting range, I'm totally fine taking some of the responsibility. Not all of it, because it was his action that made me the 'victim' , but my actions caused his. Guess what, I'd think twice about walking into a live shooting range the next time.
I'm sorry my ideologies don't sit well with you.
Your metaphor is meaningless. The rider wasn't on a shooting range. Your belief that your actions cause other people's reactions, though seemingly accurate in a semantic sense, fails the real-world test because in the real world, victims aren't legally or morally held responsible for the actions of criminal perpetrators. Only the criminals try to blame the victim for their crimes (Honest, judge, the way she was dressed and all, I just had to rape her. The b*tch had it coming!). Yeah, right. That may make make sense to the rapist, but to the rest of us in this society it's pure nonsense and refusal to accept responsibility for making the decision to perform a criminal act.
As to your shooting range metaphor, if you got shot accidentally because you darted out onto the range, that would be your responsibility. If someone decided to put a bullet in you and deliberately targeted you that would be felony assault and attempted murder. You can feel responsible for that too, if you want, but it would be pointless unless you really think you have the mental power to make someone become a criminal.
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-15-2011).]
I wouldn't put it that way. We just have differing opinions that we like to share.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
Your belief that your actions cause other people's reactions, though seemingly accurate in a semantic sense, fails the real-world test because in the real world, victims aren't legally or morally held responsible for the actions of criminal perpetrators.
Can our actions cause other people's reactions, even though we aren't held responsible for those actions? I guess I don't really know how to express my idea that the truck driver is responsible for his actions, while at the same time believing that if the rider hadn't tried to pass, this whole situation wouldn't have happened.
That's just how my own brand of logic works (its obviously not for everyone), if the motorcycle hadn't tried to pass illegally, the truck driver wouldn't have had anything to try to run off the road.
IP: Logged
11:02 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: Can our actions cause other people's reactions, even though we aren't held responsible for those actions? I guess I don't really know how to express my idea that the truck driver is responsible for his actions, while at the same time believing that if the rider hadn't tried to pass, this whole situation wouldn't have happened.
That's just how my own brand of logic works (its obviously not for everyone), if the motorcycle hadn't tried to pass illegally, the truck driver wouldn't have had anything to try to run off the road.
yes, and had the biker stayed home that day, the truck driver wouldnt have tried to kill him....that is not acceptable.
there is NO corrolation between the two actions. NONE. they are 2 completely seperate items. I have made MANY illegal passes, and have gotten tickets for 2 of them. not one person has EVER tried to kill me for that. NOT ONE.
so, I expect you would think it is OK for this guy to kill over "flipping him the bird" as well? that is MUCH more an offense than passing illegally, isnt it? is that OK? to kill someone over the middle finger? how about flahing lights? or honking a horn? is it OK to kill over that?
so, I expect you would think it is OK for this guy to kill over "flipping him the bird" as well? that is MUCH more an offense than passing illegally, isnt it? is that OK? to kill someone over the middle finger? how about flahing lights? or honking a horn? is it OK to kill over that?
Yes, that is what I have been saying the whole time. [/sarcasm] Am I just that bad at trying to convey my ideas across the internet? Or are you just looking for a response? No, none of those actions are ok to kill someone over. Making an illegal pass is no reason to kill someone. I never said that any of the truck driver's actions were justified.
I just don't see how this situation could have occurred if the motorcyclist had not made an illegal pass. That's really it, no more, no less.
And since I'm so good with meaningless metaphors to try to convey my thoughts, here's one more.
Say the motorcyclist is tailgating the truck driver. Following him with less than 3 feet in between them. (ie. an illegal act) The truck driver then slams on his brakes and the motorcyclist crashes and dies. In this case, the situation could have been avoided by not following so close.
In the real case, the situation could have been avoided by not making an illegal pass.
(Even though there wouldn't have been a 'situation' had the truck driver not tried to kill the motorcyclist as well, I get this!)
Can our actions cause other people's reactions, even though we aren't held responsible for those actions? I guess I don't really know how to express my idea that the truck driver is responsible for his actions, while at the same time believing that if the rider hadn't tried to pass, this whole situation wouldn't have happened.
That's just how my own brand of logic works (its obviously not for everyone), if the motorcycle hadn't tried to pass illegally, the truck driver wouldn't have had anything to try to run off the road.
Look at it this way. What if the pass had been apparently legal? Would your thoughts change at all?
I don't think it's on purpose. He has an opinion, and no matter how wrong it may be....He thinks everyone else should be wrong too.
Basically I think he means well, and doesn't realize how some of the things he says actually sound.
Brad
I fully realize how I "actually sound" Brad, so no condescension required. Also, as a new motorcycle rider who's already had people try to kill me, deliberately and accidentally, I take this stuff fairly serious. You apparently think that my opinion that it's wrong to kill motorcyclists for making illegal pass is somehow wrong, fine by me. If you try to kill me for making an illegal pass or any other perceived traffic infraction I'll treat it for what it is and put you down.
IP: Logged
01:08 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula: Yes, that is what I have been saying the whole time. [/sarcasm] Am I just that bad at trying to convey my ideas across the internet? Or are you just looking for a response? No, none of those actions are ok to kill someone over. Making an illegal pass is no reason to kill someone. I never said that any of the truck driver's actions were justified.
I just don't see how this situation could have occurred if the motorcyclist had not made an illegal pass. That's really it, no more, no less.
And since I'm so good with meaningless metaphors to try to convey my thoughts, here's one more.
Say the motorcyclist is tailgating the truck driver. Following him with less than 3 feet in between them. (ie. an illegal act) The truck driver then slams on his brakes and the motorcyclist crashes and dies. In this case, the situation could have been avoided by not following so close.
In the real case, the situation could have been avoided by not making an illegal pass.
(Even though there wouldn't have been a 'situation' had the truck driver not tried to kill the motorcyclist as well, I get this!)
making an illegal pass is NOT reason to try and run some one off the road ANYWHERE. the two have NOTHING to do with each other.
saying "if he didnt pass him illegally" is just as well as saying "if he stayed home that day", or "if he went to the movies instead that day". that is NOT valid. how about this: had the Pickup truck driver stayed home that day, this never would have happened. that is just as accurate - and just as invalid. we cannot say "everyone stay home" because there are idiots out there. the pickup driver is an idiot. ANYTHING could have set him off. he clearly does NOT need a valid excuse to kill. just giving him the "hairy eyeball" would apparantly be reason enough.
many people saefly make illegal passes everyday. by the time someone is done reading this post - it is likely someone made an illegal pass, and no one tried to kill them. didja know passing on the shoulder is illegal? ever see anyone killed doing for that? ever have anyone even SUGGEST that you may be killed for that?
I know you are not saying it is A-OK to kill people who make illegal passes. But you ARE saying that you should expect it. That you should beware of people who may try and kill you if you do.
the pickup driver had some kind of chip on his shoulder. apparantly, getting passed knocked it off. I completely get that. but, anything could have been the action which got this a-hole all road-raging. anything. he likely was already wound up. probably got passed by a few bikes before, and was starting to see red. yes - I get it. but - so what? if I gotta pick someone who "should have stayed home" - I pick the pickup driver. then the illegal pass wouldnt have happened either
Look at it this way. What if the pass had been apparently legal? Would your thoughts change at all?
Hmmmm. This is a good question of you to ask to get into my head.
So on a open 2-lane road with a dotted line and the motorcycle going 55 mph passes the truck? The first thought that comes to my mind, is that I doubt the truck driver would swerve at the motorcycle for that pass. If he still tried to kill the motorcyclist then charge him with wonton endangerment and let the motorcyclist keep riding. Let me know if you want a more specific answer to a certain aspect of the situation.
I fully realize how I "actually sound" Brad, so no condescension required. Also, as a new motorcycle rider who's already had people try to kill me, deliberately and accidentally, I take this stuff fairly serious. You apparently think that my opinion that it's wrong to kill motorcyclists for making illegal pass is somehow wrong, fine by me. If you try to kill me for making an illegal pass or any other perceived traffic infraction I'll treat it for what it is and put you down.
I don't think you do. .
And why not stick to one argument at a time? Are you not capable of separating issues either?
I don't think it's on purpose. He has an opinion, and no matter how wrong it may be....He thinks everyone else should be wrong too.
Basically I think he means well, and doesn't realize how some of the things he says actually sound.
Brad
Jazz is quite often wrong (i.e. disagrees with me). But this isn't one of those times.
I can't believe people here on a forum for a sports car are ragging on a motorcycle rider for using his vehicle's abilities to get around traffic. He may have passed in an inadvisable place, but... passing zones are marked based on the abilities of typical cars, not vehicles with 5 times the power to weight ratio. Did all you guys get sports cars just to obey every traffic law? I've been on Fiero "runs" in which the pace was higher than I would have ridden on my motorcycle. MUCH higher. My Formula has more lateral grip and better brakes than my motorcycle, so I usually ride slower than I drive. Still... I WILL cross the double yellow on my motorcycle to pass traffic if I can do so safely. And passing safely on a motorcycle is not the same as it is in a car.
IP: Logged
07:22 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31841 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Jazz is quite often wrong (i.e. disagrees with me). But this isn't one of those times. SNIP Still... I WILL cross the double yellow on my motorcycle to pass traffic if I can do so safely. And passing safely on a motorcycle is not the same as it is in a car.
Nope, you were correct in you first statement.
I agree that the pickup driver made his own decision to go after the biker. He was wrong, period.
As far as crossing the double yellow on a bike versus a cage, it's illegal and stupid to do so, the bike rider is risking themselves and any passenger that may be on with them inaddition to those that are in/on vehicles approaching from the opposing direction but, so is the driver of a cage. Not tossing stones here, I just try to not do stupid things while riding or driving. Been there and don't want to go back.
I just did some digging and found out that he plead guilty to 2 counts of Wanton Endangerment (1-5 year sentence per charge). 1 count of menacing (up to 90 days) and 1 count of reckless driving (fine).
Looks like he's going to be doing two 2-year sentences concurrently starting in a couple weeks, and he never posted bail since he was arrested.
Good.
IP: Logged
07:02 PM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
I no longer ride because it isn't a fair match. I have never run across anyone actually trying to take me out on a bike. I have had people who did not see me at all. I always assumed that they were looking for cars and their mind didn't connect to their eyeballs. I always rode as though I was invisible because to some people I was. I used to hear from other riders that car drivers tried to get them and I always discounted their attitude. I will have to reconsider that now. Glad to hear they put him away. I don't understand all the animosity toward jazzman. Is it because his attackers dislike him from his other posts?
Yes! I happen to think that he is exactly right. The bike rider broke a law. What he did on his bike was safer than trying it in a car and he endangered himself far more than the truck driver. Give him a ticket if you must. KILL HIM? Open season on jaywalkers and everyone else who breaks ANY law?
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 11-29-2011).]
. Im not quite old man biker that likes to see the county side but im not the dude in flip flops doing a 100 though town.
Yes, that is what I have been saying the whole time. [/sarcasm] Am I just that bad at trying to convey my ideas across the internet? Or are you just looking for a response? No, none of those actions are ok to kill someone over. Making an illegal pass is no reason to kill someone. I never said that any of the truck driver's actions were justified.
would apparantly be reason enough. 
