Obama has no say. Israel can tell him to pound sand. They dont take any guff from anyone. They would declare war on the US if they had too and not think twice about it. No one intimidates them in any way. In my opinion, theyre about the only country on Earth left with any balls.
How much you want to bet that 90% of the Jewish voters will still vote Democrat this year?
Hard to tell. They're usually pretty dependable unless you mess around with the security of the "promised land", then it's hard to say what will happen. Gonna be damn hard for him to pander to this block of voters now. I say give it a couple of days...maybe even hours, before the backtrack on this starts.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-19-2011).]
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03:08 PM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 18028 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
*snip* though Obama left room for adjustments reached through negotiations. *snip*
He left himself an out if it all goes south.
Is everything as it seems??
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*snip* Obama rejected the Palestinians' unilateral statehood bid Thursday as he sought to underscore U.S. support for Israel notwithstanding the endorsement of the 1967 borders. *snip*
[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 05-19-2011).]
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03:38 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 22739 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Hard to tell. They're usually pretty dependable unless you mess around with the security of the "promised land", then it's hard to say what will happen. Gonna be damn hard for him to pander to this block of voters now. I say give it a couple of days...maybe even hours, before the backtrack on this starts.
You would think, but I seriously doubt it. My wife is Jewish, and although I've converted both her and her father to vote Republican, the majority of her family just blindly votes Democrat... as do most of the Jewish people in New York and South Florida. It's just always been that way, they're a reliable voting block, and I doubt anything like this would change. I think anything short of an all-out bombing of Israel by a sitting president would actually convince them to change their mind. Being party-affiliated to many people is more than just understanding how a party represents your values... to many people, it's a culture... or even an identity. Many people identify themselves as a Democrat (or a Republican), and that's kind of how they more or less base their views on things. Rather than have to go through the effort of forming opinions, or at least becoming stead-fast in them you have people who pretty much feel comfortable by going along with whatever their party affiliation tells them is right and wrong.
Now, I'm not pointing fingers here, and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone here is like that (although I would bet that some are)... it's also common on both sides. But, you and I both know that Israel will never retract its borders, and in 6 months, this will be totally forgotten... and while the Jewish voters will certainly remember it... they'll conveniently sweep it under the rug in their minds as a slight difference of opinion, but continue to get out and vote Democrat. They're not all like that obviously... but just like with most people in America... that's how we are.
That said... they only make up .6% of the total US population, and only .22% of the total world population, so even though they're a voting block, they don't make a significant impact one way or another. I hate to suggest this too... but most of the animosity towards Jewish people often comes from other minority groups which tend to vote Democrat as well. It may not make a lot of play on MS-NBC, or some other news stations like that, but the most vocal opponents of Israel in America are Democrats... after all, Republicans have always vehemently supported Israel. So... if anything, this might perhaps wash it self out when it comes to lost votes vs gained votes.
I'm sure there's many Democrats reading the headlines (like Helen Thomas) that are saying... "That's right! Good for him!"
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03:41 PM
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You would think, but I seriously doubt it. My wife is Jewish, and although I've converted both her and her father to vote Republican, the majority of her family just blindly votes Democrat... as do most of the Jewish people in New York and South Florida. It's just always been that way, they're a reliable voting block, and I doubt anything like this would change. I think anything short of an all-out bombing of Israel by a sitting president would actually convince them to change their mind. Being party-affiliated to many people is more than just understanding how a party represents your values... to many people, it's a culture... or even an identity. Many people identify themselves as a Democrat (or a Republican), and that's kind of how they more or less base their views on things. Rather than have to go through the effort of forming opinions, or at least becoming stead-fast in them you have people who pretty much feel comfortable by going along with whatever their party affiliation tells them is right and wrong.
Now, I'm not pointing fingers here, and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone here is like that (although I would bet that some are)... it's also common on both sides. But, you and I both know that Israel will never retract its borders, and in 6 months, this will be totally forgotten... and while the Jewish voters will certainly remember it... they'll conveniently sweep it under the rug in their minds as a slight difference of opinion, but continue to get out and vote Democrat. They're not all like that obviously... but just like with most people in America... that's how we are.
That said... they only make up .6% of the total US population, and only .22% of the total world population, so even though they're a voting block, they don't make a significant impact one way or another. I hate to suggest this too... but most of the animosity towards Jewish people often comes from other minority groups which tend to vote Democrat as well. It may not make a lot of play on MS-NBC, or some other news stations like that, but the most vocal opponents of Israel in America are Democrats... after all, Republicans have always vehemently supported Israel. So... if anything, this might perhaps wash it self out when it comes to lost votes vs gained votes.
I'm sure there's many Democrats reading the headlines (like Helen Thomas) that are saying... "That's right! Good for him!"
I see your point and have to agree to it somewhat. I've aways been astounded that the most vociferous and continual "anti Zionist" voices have been on the left and yet Jews in American are so loyal to the Democrat party... It's a dichotomy that's difficult to comprehend.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-19-2011).]
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04:39 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Israel could have kept Egypt too if they had wanted to. They cleaned out the Egyptian military in 6 days. They should be grateful Israel didnt want it.
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06:27 PM
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
I thought when this leftist got elected got elected the US was going to quit trying to force it's will on other nations. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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06:34 PM
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
I've aways been astounded that the most vociferous and continual "anti Zionist" voices have been on the left and yet Jews in American are so loyal to the Democrat party... It's a dichotomy that's difficult to comprehend.
Ya, why would Jews who are generally very well-educated, industrious, creative, successful; vote for the party that intends to take wealth away from the successful and give it to the unsuccessful? Ever heard of Jewish guilt?
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06:41 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9470 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
'Obama adopting Arafat’s staged plan for Israel’s end' By GIL HOFFMAN AND REBECCA ANNA STOIL 05/19/2011 20:53
Likud's Dannon says US president trying to force plan on PM; Livni: Speech was in Israel’s interest, urges Netanyahu to revive talks.
MKs on the Right expressed outrage on Thursday night at US President Barack Obama’s call for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, in an exchange of territory for security.
They called upon Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to reject Obama’s plan when he meets with him on Friday in Washington.
“Barack Hussein Obama adopted Yasser Arafat’s staged plan for Israel’s destruction, and he is trying to force it on our prime minister,” Likud MK Danny Danon said. “All that was new in the speech was that he called for Israel to return to 1967 borders without solving the crisis. Netanyahu has only one option: Tell Obama to forget about it.”
Environment Minister Gilad Erdan, also from the Likud, who as a minister close to Netanyahu must be more diplomatic, said on Channel 2 that according to Obama’s approach, the Palestinians would receive what they were demanding on borders before negotiations begin.
“Once they have everything from the start, they have no reason to make any concessions,” Erdan said.
But opposition leader Tzipi Livni said Obama’s plan was clearly in Israel’s interests, while the diplomatic stalemate that she believes was brought on by Netanyahu is not.
“On his visit, Netanyahu must display the leadership necessary now to create the conditions necessary to restart negotiations with those who are ready to end the conflict,” Livni said. “Only a real Israeli initiative with content that can receive American and international support can be an answer to the current dangers and opportunities.”
Her Kadima colleague, MK Yoel Hasson, warned that if Netanyahu did not take immediate action, he would bring Israel into deeper international isolation and have borders forced on the country unilaterally.
Kadima’s MK Otniel Schneller turned the focus back on his own party, however, calling on the opposition’s leadership to take a strong stand behind the prime minister on issues of foreign policy in light of Obama’s speech.
“Obama’s speech has placed before Israeli society and its representatives the challenge of unity and national agreement. The political disagreements and the motivation of the opposition parties should not overpower their responsibility for the future of the state,” Schneller said.
“On the level of diplomatic policy, Kadima believes in the same principles presented by the prime minister, which constitute the basis for a diplomatic program that the previous government under [prime minister Ehud] Olmert and foreign minister Tzipi Livni tried to advance,” he added. “It would be appropriate if during the prime minister’s meeting with President Obama, everyone knew that the prime minister has no opposition when it comes to realizing his diplomatic initiative. We should expect mature leadership from the heads of all of the Zionist parties on the existential questions facing Israel and its strategic interests.”
MK Ahmed Tibi (United Arab List-Ta’al) criticized the speech, saying Obama offered “nothing new” in regards to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process.
Tibi told Channel 2 news the speech was intended more for Arab audiences who have been participating in pro-democracy protests in the past several months “Obama is riding the tiger of Arab democracy,” he said.
Referring to the US president’s speech in Cairo in June 2009, Tibi concluded by nicknaming Thursday’s address: “Cairo Speech II.”
Jerusalem Post staff contributed to this report.
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07:20 PM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 18028 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
How ironic that our president can't deal with our own border issues, but he is offering his advice to Israel.
And it really irks me when he says, "America feels that Israel should ..........". He does not speak for America - he speaks for the Left, the Progressives, the Muslims and George Soros.
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07:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I thought when this leftist got elected got elected the US was going to quit trying to force it's will on other nations. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
We did stop trying to enforce the US's will on other nations. Now it's all about Obama's will. I would expect Netanyahu to tell BO to FO.
And it really irks me when he says, "America feels that Israel should ..........". He does not speak for America - he speaks for the Left, the Progressives, the Muslims and George Soros.
......which, by your reasoning, comprises the majority of the country.
After all, he did win the election, didn't he?
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 05-19-2011).]
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07:44 PM
tmur115 Member
Posts: 888 From: Battle Ground WA Registered: Jan 2006
But I doubt if he ever intended to become president of all of America. At least not the part where they cling to their guns and religion, or any of the thirty million he refers to as Tea Baggers.
I see your point and have to agree to it somewhat. I've aways been astounded that the most vociferous and continual "anti Zionist" voices have been on the left and yet Jews in American are so loyal to the Democrat party... It's a dichotomy that's difficult to comprehend.
Well... they've kind of ignored everything thus-far... most recently, the total lack of respect for Israel, and continuous comments like from Helen Thomas, etc...
But if the majority of the voting block is anything like Joe Lieberman, then perhaps this latest comment might just very well be the one that causes the shift.
I sometimes watch American poliitics with amusement. This time it is a shaking of the head. This guy Obama is no friend of Israel. What Jewish American in their right mind would vote for him?
WAKE squeeks how stupid are you,, we march steadily to WAR .most Americans will not fight ,they have sold thier birth right long ago. Marine, Rangers,paratroopers,spec op,,most males will not lift thier skirts to check thier equipment ,much less fight,they beleave in nothing you must steel your hearts,, the younger miltary men have been compromised by teachers & political correctness. the few beleavers prepare for the comming fight,, We will not have enough bullets to kill them all..The green free land is surrounded by the followers of an evil murdering scum GOD. Many will laugh & chuckle ,, they are blind England is finished, the liberals have won,,hope the MOSLEMs kill them first,but most will BEG,convert they have no beleave,I HAVE SEEN THEM BEFORE,ALL THE SAME we march to the front,men of the assault force,, we sing to celebrate our heritage & the ancients "" MAIS LE DIABLE MARCHE AVEC NOUS"" HA HA HA ,, HA HA HA THE ANCIENTS GO BEFORE US,,OUR FLAGS FLYING WE WILL BE VICTORIOUS
LET THE PROTECTED HIDE ,MEN MOVE FORWARD,FALL IN WITH THE WARRIORS ""SHOOTERS ""TAKE ONE STEP FORWARD SOON YOUR BOWELS WILL QUAKE & YOU WILL STAIN THE FRONT OF YOUR TROUSERS.,ITS O.K. iVE BEEN THERE!!
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10:23 PM
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
But if they tell him to F off, what is he going to do, send in the UN? Israel will clean their clocks. The UN has never won a war, maybe they will get their cherry broken in Lybia, but they still won't have any nukes.
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10:37 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27079 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
How much you want to bet that 90% of the Jewish voters will still vote Democrat this year?
Nah. The Democrats have been throwing Israel under the bus for at least 2 years now, and I have yet to see any major Jewish defection from the D party.
But I doubt if he ever intended to become president of all of America. At least not the part where they cling to their guns and religion, or any of the thirty million he refers to as Tea Baggers.
As of 2006, there were approximately 300 million Americans of which 75.4% (or 226,200,000) were over the age of 18. Let's just assume that only half of them were eligible to vote in 2008. That's STILL approximately 113 million Americans. Even taking into account your 30 million Tea Baggers, there's no plurality there. The simple reality is his "posse" was bigger than your "posse" at the voting booth....where it actually matters in elections.
By definition, a significant aspect of any POTUS' job is to represent the country as a whole, give it a face and a voice on a global scale, as they have for the previous 43 administrations.
I doubt you'd have a problem with that job description had the candidate you supported or preferred won.
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07:48 AM
Fformula88 Member
Posts: 7891 From: Buffalo, NY Registered: Mar 2000
I have to agree. Being POTUS makes him the voice of America, even if there is a good percentage of Americans who disagree. It also affects all Americans, and as such he represents all Americans even if he doesn't represent them how they would prefer. The amount of voter turnout doesn't really matter. Those who turn out decide the election. Those who dislike him and didn't vote have a chance to hit the polls in a year and a half.
Just for interest, voter turnout was over 56% in 2008, the highest it had been since the 60's (according to this site: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html ) As for Isreal, I am not sure what BO is doing is going to settle down the tensions. Both sides really want the whole pie. I do not think the Palestinians are going to stop if they get 1967 borders restored. They are still going to want to take back the rest of Isreal. Therefore, the Israelis are also going to have to keep on alert anyway. Plus, they will have a chip on their shoulder for returning, under foreign pressue, to 1967 borders (which I do not see them doing).
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08:27 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 22739 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Nah. The Democrats have been throwing Israel under the bus for at least 2 years now, and I have yet to see any major Jewish defection from the D party.
The voting block is so small, that it almost doesn't even matter which way they swing, honestly... but Israel is our ally... it's not about what has Palestine done for us, but let's say they get everything they want... will Palestine be our ally? Hell no... Palestine will still hate us, regardless of whether or not we support them...
I think the culture of being beholden to the party is much stronger than American Jews are to Israel. I would bet you anything, they'd sooner dissassociate themselves from Israel than vote Republican... I truly believe that. Even now, the vast majority of Jews in Florida and New York are more culturally involved than they are religiously. It really has become more of a culture. I know literally hundreds of Jews personally, I had 300 of them at my wedding 5 years ago. Almost none of them go to temple, and many of them are emberassed to even admit that they're Jewish outside of their own circles... so I really don't see the majority of them standing up for Israel.
quote
Originally posted by newf:
Huh??
I don't know if NATO has ever started or won any wars, but I do know that they do SOME good things. (I know that you're not saying they don't, but just kind of randomly replying).
I know they are the sole peace-keepers in Liberia. Honestly, I seriously think the United States should go in there and repatriate Liberia. It used to be a US colony, and we kind of abandoned it, stupidly... without even thinking about it. They're desperately poor, but the land is fertile, and we could save a **** -load of money by consolidating all of our US military bases throughout Africa, and build one collosal base in Liberia. We could hire hundreds of thousands of people in Libera for Construction projects. If we re-claimed Liberia, they would be more than happy to become part of the US again, and with all of our military money going back into US territory, rather than foreign nations in Africa, I think people would have less of a problem with it. First and foremost, we could probably save 30% in total expenditures by consolidating our bases in Africa, into Liberia. With the influx of money going into Liberia from troops buying goods outside the base, it would begin to create a sustainable community there, over and above the massive influx of work that would be created through construction jobs.
We should build the military base in West Point, next to Monrovia... it's the biggest **** -hole, and there's nothing but drug houses, and prostitution brothels...
The only people keeping keeping the peace there is UN-MIL... and it seems like they could leave at any moment. I seriously don't understand why we don't just go over there and say... "we'll take you back."
I mean, **** ... they still use our flag...
quote
Originally posted by Doni Hagan:
As of 2006, there were approximately 300 million Americans of which 75.4% (or 226,200,000) were over the age of 18. Let's just assume that only half of them were eligible to vote in 2008. That's STILL approximately 113 million Americans. Even taking into account your 30 million Tea Baggers, there's no plurality there. The simple reality is his "posse" was bigger than your "posse" at the voting booth....where it actually matters in elections.
By definition, a significant aspect of any POTUS' job is to represent the country as a whole, give it a face and a voice on a global scale, as they have for the previous 43 administrations.
I doubt you'd have a problem with that job description had the candidate you supported or preferred won.
Honestly... I don't think he's appropriately representing the country. When people voted for him, they expected something else. I don't think all the people who voted for him expected a shift towards socialism, and a massive move towards buying up corporations. Literally, there have been over 1000 corporations that have been purchased by the US government. The only ones which make headlines are GM, Chrysler, and some of the banks... but there are actually over 1000 corporations, smaller ones, that have been purchased by the US government. We have no business running corporations because then they are run as an expense, rather than a business.
If I became president tomorrow, I would do everything possible to sell off every government owned corporation. They don't bring in an income, they only cost the taxpayer money.
I think when people voted for Obama, they thought they were voting for someone like John F. Kennedy... a guy who everyone could rally behind, someone who would make the whole country proud of themselves again... proud of our own accomplishments, and proud of who we are, and what we do. Sure, it's only been two years... but other than the capture / killing of Obama... there hasn't honestly been anything that I've been exceptionally happy about. Quite honestly, the only other thing that he's done that I'm actually pleased with, is that he's passed some wildlife protection legislation across the US.
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09:31 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Doni your post sounds like the kind of we won so suck it attitude that is not any good coming from either side. I think the 2010 election results could be interpreted as many voters who voted for Obama very unhappy with him thus far.
82 T/A, JFK has been so mythologized I don't think people who didn't live through the time can really know how it really went down. Heck even people who lived through it have probably had their memories clouded by all the propaganda. I would think it was not as harmonious as we are told. Many people would have toned down there opposition to him after the assassination and people also have the tendency to revise their own histories.
High voter turnout: has anyone ever thought that maybe it's not a good thing? If you think that it means many people who normally don't vote are voting. Why weren't they interested enough in voting before? How much attention to policy are those folks giving? How much of it has to do with the weather? I'd like to see a higher turnout consistently, but only because more people are more interested and better informed.
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09:47 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I'm just amazed that the nerve Obama has... as a muslum He must be on Mossad's hit parade... not very bright
