quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I am not dead set against it, I just don't believe it will happen any time soon. My time on Earth has shown me that it will be put off for as long as they think they can get away with it.

Based on what?

Your words btw, are almost word for word what was said in Greece and Ireland, right up till they admitted they were broke.

OK, I've skimmed most of the answers on here.

This is what I see. If we raise the debt ceiling further, it simply lays the problems on our children's shoulders.

And what problems can owing a bunch of money to foreign countries bring?

Brad

1. It's not all owed to foriegn countries. Some is owed to private citizens, private business, and to the Central Bank (The Federal Reserve has been pouring $$ into govt treasury notes for the last 7 months to the tune of $600 billion. Google Quantative Easing)

2. The problems of owing so much, is that it sucks so much out of the economy and the GDP as a whole. The more debt you have, the bigger the % of your govt's revenues that are spent on it, instead of it going back to the nation in the form of revenue sharing for the states, infrastructure repair and building, medicare, national defense etc. It reaches a point, where the govt is forced to either quit borrowing and spending, or raising taxes. The problem we now have, is that we no longer employ enough people and manufactor enough to produce the tax revenues that will soon be needed just to pay for the service on the debt. Service on the debt is interest or yield. AND, the more in debt we as a nation becomes--just like any family--the harder it becomes to borrow. (find people or nations to lend to us--buy our treasury notes. To get them to buy them, we have to offer to pay more interest--more yield. It's an ever upward spiraling pattern.
3. For those who don't read the news, we reached the debt ceiling TODAY. US Treasury, is now using an accounting juggle to buy 11 more weeks before we reach the new artificial debt ceiling that was created today by--(guess?) --yep--BORROWING from 2 federal employee pension funds--just to keep the govt in operation. We don't even have enough revenues coming in to treasury thru normal means to last 11 weeks. That, is how bad things are.

quote By Jim Puzzanghera, Los Angeles Times May 16, 2011, 8:37 p.m. Reporting from Washington— With the federal government hitting its $14.3-trillion debt limit, Treasury officials have started a complex fiscal juggling act to postpone the date when the government can no longer pay its bills. But those accounting tricks, such as tapping two federal employees pension funds for loans, would buy only 11 more weeks for the White House and lawmakers to increase the debt ceiling. On Aug. 2, the juggling act would be over, Obama administration officials said. ........

http://www.latimes.com/busi...0517,0,5038135.story

If anyone thinks this type of economic dancing is sustainable, I'd really love to hear what they base that belief on. Comparing contemporary America back to a time when we were an economic and manucactoring powerhouse and the rest of the world was just our marektplace to sell our goods in, is no basis at all. The rest of the world caught up with us, and much of it is now passing us. There's no turning the clock back.
Stop pretending folks.

Raising the debt ceiling doesn't stop the impending disaster though, it just passes it to others.

I vote that we man up, and take the hit.

Brad

Exactly Brad, and the sooner we do it, the less the damage and pain will be. We CAN contain it--maybe--but not if we wait until it is forced upon us as it has been for so many other nations and civilazations before us.

When that happens, it's NEVER the well off or affluent that hurt the most. It's ALWAYS those who are least prepared or able--- that suffer the worst. It will be bad either way, but if we take the hit and work our way out of it, we can come back. Wait, and I don't see us ever being anything again but one more "used to be".

btw, to put our debt into perspective, according to the Boston Globe, the debt is $14.3 trillion tonight--and growing of course.

quote The US government yesterday reached its legally mandated $14.3 trillion debt ceiling - or about $46,000 for every American man, woman and child.

Sustainable? hardly.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: ... the debt is $14.3 trillion tonight--and growing of course.

Umm ...that does not include interest, correct ?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: ... the sooner we do it, the less the damage and pain will be. We CAN contain it--maybe--but not if we wait until it is forced upon us as it has been for so many other nations and civilazations before us.

Off topic but, those are my thoughts with containing the Mississippi River on it's present course.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: ... both nations were forced to embark on an extreme set of cuts, which (in the case of Greece) has resulted in riots, protests, and strikes in the streets.

Add England into the mix. We will see hat here, for sure. Heh, we already have had a taste of it in Wisconsin. When they only slightly trimmed back the unsunstainable cost of government union pensions and health care. I believe that we are the biggest cry babies on the planet. The shoe fits so I am gonna say mainly the dumbocrats as they either expect mommy gooberment to take care of them or they campaign and make promises/buy votes with other peoples money. We are out of that money.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I am not dead set against it, righting our ship, I just don't believe it will happen any time soon. My time on Earth has shown me that it will be put off for as long as they think they can get away with it.

Heh, you would be right in that it will be put off as long as they can get away with it. Human nature to some. It will make it harder to do later, make it harder to adapt, and life will be suckier than it would otherwise be. The smart move would be (and is reflected in the polls ...talk is cheap) to let them know we do not ant to raise the debt limit.

quote Originally quoted by maryjane By Jim Puzzanghera, Los Angeles Times May 16, 2011, 8:37 p.m. Reporting from Washington— With the federal government hitting its $14.3-trillion debt limit, Treasury officials have started a complex fiscal juggling act to postpone the date when the government can no longer pay its bills. But those accounting tricks, such as tapping two federal employees pension funds for loans, would buy only 11 more weeks for the White House and lawmakers to increase the debt ceiling. On Aug. 2, the juggling act would be over, Obama administration officials said.

Heh, sad. Much like the obscenity squabble here recently and the rules, use common sense. Budget accounting tricks, like the type used to make ObamaCare seem financially efficient, defies common sense. Hehe, tapping into two federal employee pension funds. Hehehe. That's not gonna end well and it's like raiding your children's piggy bank. Pathetic. More so, they can not admit what they are doing is wrong and want the debt limit raised, .

no

let them raise it to the point where the whole system collapses. let the house of cards fall, so it can be rebuilt and we can get back to business. maybe people will quit voting these assholes in office.

quote Originally posted by fieroX: let them raise it to the point where the whole system collapses. let the house of cards fall, so it can be rebuilt and we can get back to business. maybe people will quit voting these assholes in office.

Some would say they are doing just that, but in order to replace our system of government, or at least capitalism, with something else.

Unfortunately, Congress consistently brings the Government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility. This brinkmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the Federal deficit would soar. The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart from much of the world. -- Ronald Reagan, commenting about a debt limit increase bill that had amendments he didn't like, 1987 Apparently he understood what the consequences would be if the debt limit wasn't increased as needed.

That was 2 decades ago and then some. As you said in another thread, (or words to the effect of) "a lot has changed since back then". Debt was not nearly as high, and the rest of the world was still playing catch up to a much greater extent. There's just so much global market share in the world, and with China, S. Korea, Indonesia, Germany, India, Bulgaria, Chile, Romania, and soon--African nations producing and exporting their manufactoring goods abroad in every single market, the paradigm has changed significantly since Ronald Reagan's day. We can't make it, much less prosper and grow on a strictly consumer and service based economy, and even if we had retained our manufactoring capacity at a level comparable to 1987, we are no longer the only dogs in the kennel, and it is very difficult to force buyer to purchase our goods when Romanians can and will "Buy Romainian" in many instances. EADS and Airbus took a big bite out of our domestic built airplane exports. Our shipbuilding is down to nearly nothing outside USN ships. (S. Korea and the Nordic nations now have that). We don't produce and export nearly as much steel as we did 35 years ago (China/S. Korea have that) and they aren't going to buy ours when theirs is readily available. As I said, it's not so much or only that we have decreased production--the rest of the world is working feverishly to get on par with and pass us. Decreased production means fewer jobs--more lower paying jobs--fewer corporate earnings overall, and that equates to less tax revenues being taken in by US Treasury. Throw in the increases in the # of Americans aging and recieving Medicare and our military expenses, and it looks even worse.

I guess it also depends on what people think will happen if the debt ceiling is not raised.

Are they prepared to pay things like extra taxes and see deep deep cuts to things like SS, Medicare, education and most of all the Military?

I see a lot of people saying that the U.S. should not involve itself in other countires affairs anymore so are they prepared to discontinue foreign aid and other foreign expenditures?

What do you think the effects of mass unemployment, poverty and unrest that would likely follow such decisions?

quote Originally posted by newf: I guess it also depends on what people think will happen if the debt ceiling is not raised. Are they prepared to pay things like extra taxes and see deep deep cuts to things like SS, Medicare, education and most of all the Military?

Absolutely!

quote I see a lot of people saying that the U.S. should not involve itself in other countires affairs anymore so are they prepared to discontinue foreign aid and other foreign expenditures?

Most certainly!

quote What do you think the effects of mass unemployment, poverty and unrest that would likely follow such decisions?

The same as they will be when debt swallows us up, we are no longer the world's reserve currency and we default at the whim of global economic forces rather than of our own control--------IOW--extremely painful, but inevitable. Pain and suffering=pain and suffering regardless of whether it happens now or after we are dead and buried. The only REAL choice is whether we will choose to bear the brunt of it--or choose to push it off on another generation to bear.

We can postpone it, so it doesn't happen in OUR lifetime (depending on one's age) but we can't prevent it from happening----UNLESS, we work and pay our way out of it the same way we did the last time our debt:GDP ratio was close to this high. No, we didn't call it QE2 or QE3--we called it WW2. So, shoot the juice to those printing presses baby, and start building bombs, bullets, canned beans and planes, cuz the only way we will "work" our way out this time is to decimate most of the rest of the developed and emerging world economies---just like last time. (that's how you beat the competition when you can't beat the competition--not that I am seriously in favor of it at this juncture)

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by newf: What do you think of the effects of mass unemployment, poverty and unrest that would likely follow such decisions?

I can only see the good it will cause. People/politicians have for too long been numbed to reality. People will once again learn to be self reliant, which is what made this nation great.

quote Originally posted by fieroX: let them raise it to the point where the whole system collapses. let the house of cards fall, so it can be rebuilt and we can get back to business.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Some would say they are doing just that, but in order to replace our system of government, or at least capitalism, with something else.

Yes, that was in a long term play book of some American radicals wanting to take down the American way.

Stop foreign aid for a year! Why are we sending money to Saudi Arabia? The Stan countries want us out so let's give them what they want and when we have to come back in a year let's go back with NO QUESTION that we are there to eliminate the "problem" in short order. Cut aid to those countries that are flooding us with illegals until they solve the problem on their end before they qualify for any new aid. Spend the money of energy developement HERE. Debt should begin to shrink and quickly.
There now I feel better

Well, its like the guy who maxes out his credit card, then when he wants more goods, he just ups the limits so he can max it out again. Sounds like a stupid plan.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Well, its like the guy who maxes out his credit card, then when he wants more goods, he just ups the limits so he can max it out again. Sounds like a stupid plan.

And then I consolidated all of my credit debt into one monthly payment & cut all but 2 of them up.
I'm still spending, but I now have to be much more careful.

But there for awhile, woooooo hoooooo, what a party!

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-17-2011).]

But theres no one higher up to give the government a consolidation loan plan....expecially with their record of money management. If I had the money to bail the government out of its current problems, no one on earth could convince me to do it. Its as bad as handing a homeless person a $100 bill and telling him to spend it wisely, lol.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Unfortunately, Congress consistently brings the Government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility. This brinkmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the Federal deficit would soar. The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations. It means we have a well-earned reputation for reliability and credibility -- two things that set us apart from much of the world. -- Ronald Reagan, commenting about a debt limit increase bill that had amendments he didn't like, 1987 Apparently he understood what the consequences would be if the debt limit wasn't increased as needed.

This was the National Debt in 1987:
$2,350,276,890,953.00

This is the National Debt now:
$14,383,175,xxx,xxx (counting up too fast to list last digits)

The Congress and Senate, at the time, were controlled by Democrats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ited_States_Congress

Meanwhile....despite all the "sturm und drang" at ground level, the beat goes on at the top.

DAYTON, Ohio — This John Boehner was not the John Boehner that Tea Party leaders in the room thought they knew.

Compared to the Boehner who talked tough on spending ahead of last November's elections, the one who showed up at Club 55, just off Interstate 75 in Troy in southwestern Ohio, struck them as timid.

The private April 25 meeting was convened by the Speaker of the House of Representatives at the request of Tea Party leaders, who were seething over recent Republican compromises, most notably on the 2011 budget.

One of the 25 or so leaders, all from Boehner's district, asked him if Republicans would raise America's $14.3 trillion debt limit.

According to half a dozen attendees interviewed by Reuters, the most powerful Republican in Washington said "yes."

"And we're going to have to raise it again in the future," he added. With the mass retirement of America's Baby Boomers, he explained, it would take 20 years to balance the U.S. budget and 30 years after that to erase the nation's huge fiscal deficit.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id...itics-more_politics/

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 05-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Meanwhile....despite all the "sturm und drang" at ground level, the beat goes on at the top. [b][i]DAYTON, Ohio — This John Boehner was not the John Boehner that Tea Party leaders in the room thought they knew. .........

And in exchange for raising the limit, he wants the administration to cut how much out of the spending budget to reduce the deficit thus cut the debt? Trillions.

Meanwhile, Turbo Tax Tim Geithner is once again talking out both sides of his mouth. Speaking today at The Harvard Club in NYC, he said:

quote Geithner reiterated today that “the debt limit must be increased. It is simply not an option for Congress to evade the basic responsibility to protect America’s creditworthiness.”

A few moments later, he said:

quote Geithner said the U.S. should get its deficit below 3 percent of gross domestic product, from 10.9 percent of GDP projected for the current fiscal year ending Sept. 30. The U.S. also needs a “debt cap so that politicians cannot choose to live with unsustainable deficits,” he said.

Politics as usual. You can't endorse raising the limit, as you chide congress for not already doing so, while also voicing the opinion that there should be a cap so congress cannot "choose to live with unsustainable deficits". The cap Geithner refers to, already exists---$14.3 trillion--we just blew thru it yesterday, and Giethner is among those screaming loudest for a new cap. Which one does he want--cap or no cap? Makes no sense.

And, when the Treasury Sec of the party of the incumbent says the deficit and debt are unsustainable, you would think more of their supporters would say "Hey! It's true!! It really IS unsustainable!!".
http://www.bloomberg.com/ne...-budget-deficit.html

But few do--on either side. They just hope and pray, with their heads under the sand, and their thumbs up their butts, that it is sustainable just long enough for the status quo to last till they are dead and buried.

For me Doni--it eclipses politics. I could not care less who solves the debt problem or who caused it or who raises the limit or who opposes raising it. My concern is not what happens in OUR lifetime, but whether the nation will survive as a modern self suffecient country or return to the level of an emerging or even to a fading nation economically for the long term future. Politics aside, this sort of "peace of the cake in our time" mentality is also unsustainable. It's like social security---everyone fully understands SS needs to be overhauled, but everyone wants them to wait until they get their's out first. Yet another recipe for disaster. (yes I know--SS and the debt are 2 different animals--but-- they share the same terminal and fatal disease)
I'm 61 and if they kill SS tomorrow, I'm all for it.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: For me Doni--it eclipses politics............It's like social security---everyone fully understands SS needs to be overhauled, but everyone wants them to wait until they get their's out first. Yet another recipe for disaster. (yes I know--SS and the debt are 2 different animals--but-- they share the same terminal and fatal disease) I'm 61 and if they kill SS tomorrow, I'm all for it.

I agree about killing off SS......IF they refund the seven figures they've already taken from me over the years. I'm not relying on SS for my retirement but if I can't get the money back, then refund what I theoretically won't use. I'll put it with the rest of the nest egg and I still have a few years before I'm eligible for SS. I know my money's going towards paying the benefits of those already in the program but if they kill it off NOW, how do I get MY money back?

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 05-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: I agree about killing off SS......IF they refund the seven figures they've already taken from me over the years. I'm not relying on SS for my retirement but if I can't get the money back, then refund what I theoretically won't use. I'll put it with the rest of the nest egg and I still have a few years before I'm eligible for SS. I know my money's going towards paying the benefits of those already in the program but if they kill it off NOW, how do I get MY money back?

quote I agree about killing off SS......IF they refund the seven figures they've already taken from me over the years. I'm not relying on SS for my retirement but if I can't get the money back, then refund what I theoretically won't use. I'll put it with the rest of the nest egg and I still have a few years before I'm eligible for SS. I know my money's going towards paying the benefits of those already in the program but if they kill it off NOW, how do I get MY money back?

I figured if it was worth stating twice, it was worth saying again. But, /\ see what I mean?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: It's like social security---everyone fully understands SS needs to be overhauled, but everyone wants them to wait until they get their's out first.

No one wants govt to implement the painful spending, entitlement, defense cuts and tax increases that will come with fixing the debt/deficit either--till after they themselves are departed from this world, thus spared the personal affects those implementations would bring. Their concern is less about the future and more about NOW and ME.
Someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to have to step up with a set of balls and make some sacrifices for the future of the nation if we're to remain a strong nation and leave anything at all for future generations of America.

When a person owns property and pays school taxes, but has no kids in school (and may never have had or will have) how do they get their $ back? THEY don't. It's used to educate the FUTURE generation of America--and that's what were are discussing in this thread--well a few of us are.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: When a person owns property and pays school taxes, but has no kids in school (and may never have had or will have) how do they get their $ back? THEY don't. It's used to educate the FUTURE generation of America--and that's what were are discussing in this thread--well a few of us are.

Future generation(s) yes, but also present generations which we have to live with. Also, school taxes keep in place a system that say Doni might want his new grandchild to benefit from. We do get back from school taxes. We get back what we expected when we paid them.
Off topic but, I do have a problem with how our school taxes are used. Not so much the local tax dollars but the federal dollars. I will leave that discussion for another time.
Social Security, not so much a cut and dry case. We are not getting what we expected (perhaps). Some of us are counting on it, myself included though I will make it without it. I would give mine up ... IF ... which also might be a discussion for another topic.
Also slightly off topic but budget related, the US Senate (D controlled) has not passed a budget in 750 days. Over two years. How the hell can you manage debt without a budget, ? I understand, that within the raising of the debt ceiling debate going n in Congress, the republicans are pushing for the Senate to pass a budget and that the Senate is resisting. Speculation has it that they do not want to be on record to defend their fiscal philosophies.
cliffw thinks that everyone should write/call/email their Senator and demand that they do their duty.

Ive thought for years to go back to just start manufacturing all the things we need here and stop giving money to every other country on Earth. That policy worked fine for years to make America great. More we give away as handouts and more stuff we get from somewhere else is just flushing us down the toilet at an expotential rate. Just the money we give to any single country in a year would pay everyone in an average US city. We even give billions, without any possibilty of repayment, to countries that just dont like us at all anyway.

no

Are you sure we can't have a few billion .. you know .. just to check the feasibility of a possible rail line?
**5 Million pledged to MN to study MN high speed rail mpls to duluth..

Without a study... Umm.. any stops along the way? Using existing freight line will increase wear, Using existing freight lines designed for 50 mph travel how are you going to pull off 150 mph?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Future generation(s) yes, but also present generations which we have to live with. Also, school taxes keep in place a system that say Doni might want his new grandchild to benefit from. We do get back from school taxes. We get back what we expected when we paid them. .

I was referring to our nation's future "adults'. We educate them as children (even now) but they put that education to work --for the most part--during their adult life. THAT, is where our taxes are actually recouped by the nation as a whole, by what the Future adults gain from that education. We ourselves, (current property /school tax payers) get little to nothing from the property school taxes we pay in--especially those who have no children or who have no children in school or their kids are no longer of school age.
And to be clear, i am not advocating the abolishment of school taxes for those who don't have kids in school, I am merely explainging that the future survival/prosperity of the nation is far more important than worrying only about what comforts or discomforts the nation may see today as a result of not raising the debt ceiling.

I still say no.
I hate that the dumbs keep saying my interest rates will go up if we do not. "Neither a borrower nor a lender be". Besides, my financial situation is not tied to the US Government. Nor do I believe the economy is tied to gooberment credit. Gooberment spends too much. I can't vote me a raise so I can spend more.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Nobama man is saying (news conference) if we don't do the revenues (taxes) we will not have savings. WTF ? We save by not spending. Can the man ever be honest ?

No.
And no matter what he says, he means to increase spending in some way. It's the only way he stands a snowball's chance in hell of being re-elected. You think he's bad now? If he gets re-elected and no longer needs to worry about public opinion, this country is in for a world of hurt we've not yet known.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Yes.

For some people (and the government) debt always seems to work, so why why change what works?

While one or two generations spent the money, one generation can't possibly pay it off. It will take several. I agree that spending needs to be capped and it needs to start with an across the board cut in spending of 10% and go from there until there is no need to borrow more. Entitlements, military, government services, wages, salaries ... everything.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 07-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: For some people (and the government) debt always seems to work, so why why change what works?

Was that a shot at what you suspect I believe?
My battle with debt has made my life very stressful.
It has also saved my life.

People always demonize debt and portray themselves above it.
But how did these people get their house, or a new car?

Debt is indeed sometimes how things get done.
Person, peoples, and countries.

Im still in the NO column. Let the government learn to spend only what they make....like everyone else.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Personally I think "no". Realistically I suppose they will, but hope it is coupled with actively paying off our entire debt in my lifetime, as it was in my generation's timeframe (I'm 61) that most of the debt was incurred, and it would be totally unfair to pass that debt load off to another 3-4 generations. Others here have stated they believe it should just be passed on to our kids and grandkids--the gift that keeps on taking. No matter what. I think we have an obligation to pay it off and more sooner rather than later--regardless of the fiscal, physical, and political pain it will cause.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Was that a shot at what you suspect I believe? My battle with debt has made my life very stressful. It has also saved my life. People always demonize debt and portray themselves above it. But how did these people get their house, or a new car? Debt is indeed sometimes how things get done. Person, peoples, and countries.

Yep--done--as in default and bankruptcy if it isn't paid back in a timely and agreed upon manner. We are now to the point that we are borrowing just to pay the interest, facing the results of that sorry spending/repayment policy and it doesn't take a genius to understand what that results will be.

S&P yesterday, announced they would drop the US rating from Aaa to D if they downgraded our debt. Moody announced yesterday, that they had placed the US debt on watch for downgrading, as did China's primary soverign debt rating agency, with Moody saying they are now considering downgrading our credit even before Aug 1 whether the debt ceiling is raised or not.

This house of cards is about to fall. We either get our house in order or the market will do it for us. There's no way around that.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-14-2011).]

What is the point of keeping up with the amount of $$$ already spent...How long have we had a deficit and why was it not simply payed off when it was only in the millions...It doesnt matter if the amount is only a 100 million or XXX trillion.....it is never going to get paid off......Not in our life time, our kids life time, grandkids, ect.....It is just a number that some one is keeping up with that will never go to 0......

One question....How long have we had a deficit?

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: One question....How long have we had a deficit?

http://www.usgovernmentspen...debt_deficit_history