Ok so i get a call today from Warner (company I'm going to be driving for) They brought up my criminal history and it appears that an old harassment charge has still stuck on my record but it says on my record i was found not guilty of it)
Now the details of the charge are weird. I was walking out of work one night (back in 2006)and one of my co-workers who had been there working that day but hadn't been seen all that day out of nowhere comes up and jumps me. I could tell from the kids eyes he was high as a kite, Now he was seriously trying to hurt me by slamming me around into cars and such so I Took one good swing at him and put him down and dashed back into the dealership while calling 911. So cops showed up and said since they couldn't get to the bottom of the story they were charging us both with harassment. Well I got fired from the dealership (was rehired back the next day).
So i took the ticket to court plead my case and was found not guilty. Now the messed up thing is I was found not guilty but they never removed the charge from my record they just put that I was found not guilty of it.
My employer is putting the case up in front of there review board to see if they will still employ me because of it, But my question is can they legally bar me from employment because of something that was on my record that I was found not guilty of?
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09:53 PM
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Xerces_Blackthorne Member
Posts: 6163 From: Mertztown PA Registered: Mar 2008
You dont really need a layer to get it expunged if i wasent guilty of it But shouldn't it have been expunged all together with being found innocent
And you expected better of the PA court system?
Such high expectations...
Get a lawyer, plain and simple. Or deal with it. Makes the process so much easier if you have a lawyer. Hell, call legal aid and have one of their public defenders do it for you, its cheaper (may even be free).
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10:01 PM
Indyellowgt Member
Posts: 1950 From: Alfred,Maine,Fiero Country,USA Registered: Dec 2000
I think you'll be all set. That should be tossed out. If you have had no trouble since and have good credentials the company should hire you. Good luck. and tell those jokers to remove that crap from your record....
Get a lawyer, plain and simple. Or deal with it. Makes the process so much easier if you have a lawyer. Hell, call legal aid and have one of their public defenders do it for you, its cheaper (may even be free).
You do make a very good point there about the PA legal system. Either way if it dosent go through with this company i might have to wait months to get the record expunged.. but i only have 90 days to get a job before company are going to want me to get re-certified
The fact that you were charged with harrassment and found not guilty is still all part of your record. Otherwise, you would never be able to positively prove to anyone, that you were not found guilty. There's usually a big difference between "all charges dropped" and "found not guilty".
Are they saying they may not hire you because it is on your record as harrasment or because you were guilty of harrassment?
Or, is this something you neglected to inform them of during the job application phase and they are not pleased that you did not fully inform them via the usual "Have you ever been arrested??" question?
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-12-2011).]
I think they are still going to hire you regardless. I am sure there are drivers on the road right now working for them with worse records than that. Your like a virgin when it comes to arrest records if that all that's on it.
The fact that you were charged with harrassment and found not guilty is still all part of your record. Otherwise, you would never be able to positively prove to anyone, that you were not found guilty. There's usually a big difference between "all charges dropped" and "found not guilty".
Are they saying they may not hire you because it is on your record as harrasment or because you were guilty of harrassment?
Or, is this something you neglected to inform them of during the job application phase and they are not pleased that you did not fully inform them via the usual "Have you ever been arrested??" question?
I dident put it on the applacation but honestly i dident even know it was on there. I figured it would have been expunged with the not guilty. hell i dident even think it did anything to my record.
Originally posted by pontiackid86: I dident put it on the applacation but honestly i dident even know it was on there. I figured it would have been expunged with the not guilty. hell i dident even think it did anything to my record.
[facepalm] I can understand, but not putting it on there can be a bad thing.
There is a difference in being found not guilty, and being found innocent, or having the charges dropped.
Brad
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11:21 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
[facepalm] I can understand, but not putting it on there can be a bad thing.
There is a difference in being found not guilty, and being found innocent, or having the charges dropped.
Brad
In our justice system, "found innocent" virtually doesn't exist. Charges are brought, and you are found not guilty if there isn't enough evidence to convict. At no time is there a positive affirmation of innocence. There is only a lack of confirmation of guilt. There may be a few exceptions here and there but they are rare exceptions to the rule.
That's why "innocent until proven guilty" is so important. Anyone can be charged with anything. Proving they're guilty is another story.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-12-2011).]
In our justice system, "found innocent" virtually doesn't exist. Charges are brought, and you are found not guilty if there isn't enough evidence to convict. At no time is there a positive affirmation of innocence. There is only a lack of confirmation of guilt. There may be a few exceptions here and there but they are rare exceptions to the rule.
That's why "innocent until proven guilty" is so important. Anyone can be charged with anything. Proving they're guilty is another story.
With me I had the charges dropped that were against me.
The way I was explained it, you could be found not guilty because of reasons other than innocence, reasons beyond your control perhaps. Then you could be found innocent, that is that you had nothing to do with anything regarding the charges.
And then the charges could be dropped, either because the event never happened, or because the state does not have the ability to properly try the person.
I'm not a lawyer, and my information is 3rd hand at best. We do have a lawyer on here. I wonder what he will say, really.
I did have a similar problem with a job, but I had put the information on my application. It was only a ticket, and was right on the (in the past 3 years) line they had, but I wrote it down. It came back, even though it was taken care of, and I had to file for an exemption, and after a few days of waiting it was granted. I was told that if I hadn't wrote it down I would not have got the job.
Ok so i get a call today from Warner (company I'm going to be driving for) They brought up my criminal history and it appears that an old harassment charge has still stuck on my record but it says on my record i was found not guilty of it)
Now the details of the charge are weird. I was walking out of work one night (back in 2006)and one of my co-workers who had been there working that day but hadn't been seen all that day out of nowhere comes up and jumps me. I could tell from the kids eyes he was high as a kite, Now he was seriously trying to hurt me by slamming me around into cars and such so I Took one good swing at him and put him down and dashed back into the dealership while calling 911. So cops showed up and said since they couldn't get to the bottom of the story they were charging us both with harassment. Well I got fired from the dealership (was rehired back the next day).
that was shotty and absurd police work. Im sorry they were such asshats to charge you with that over such a call. So i took the ticket to court plead my case and was found not guilty. Now the messed up thing is I was found not guilty but they never removed the charge from my record they just put that I was found not guilty of it.
My employer is putting the case up in front of there review board to see if they will still employ me because of it, But my question is can they legally bar me from employment because of something that was on my record that I was found not guilty of?
that was shotty and absurd police work. I'm sorry you had to deal with such ass hats like that. They should have never arrested you .
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 05-13-2011).]
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01:50 AM
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
I know innocent and proven guilty is important, but as an employer I might be wary of someone who has arrests on their record. I don't know too many people who have arrest records at all. Some people cause trouble and some people just have a pattern of trouble finding them. An employer won't care who's fault it is, they just don't want any trouble.
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02:31 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31841 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
An interesting situation. The review board hearing should give you a chance to tell your side of the story. Hiring a lawyer might get you past the review board, not sure about that but, doing that will definately set the tone for your relationship with the employer. That's a hint. Have you actually started yet? If not, they can use almost any reason they want to fill their open positions with the most qualified candidate that meets their hiring criteria. One that doesn't have an arrest record. I'm not judging you on this but, they do have the right to do that.
Originally posted by pontiackid86: My employer is putting the case up in front of there review board to see if they will still employ me because of it, But my question is can they legally bar me from employment because of something that was on my record that I was found not guilty of?
They can legally bar you from employment for any reason they want, except for a few covered by some state and federal laws such as race. What you can do is file for expungement, that will clear your criminal record. Meanwhile, you ought to go get a letter from your former employer detailing the circumstances of that altercation and submit that to your new employer.
dude that sucks, its hard enough finding work these days without stupid crap like that happening. However if you didn't know it was there, (and depending on how the app. worded it) you didn't lie, and i don't think that is reason enough for them to bias against you. Good luck man
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08:48 AM
dsnover Member
Posts: 1668 From: Cherryville, PA USA Registered: Apr 2006
Get it expunged. It WILL take a lawyer, as you will have to go before a judge of some sort. Be aware that even if expunged, thanks to the wonders of computers, it's still there. Police can still see it, although it won't appear in background checks any longer. Neat, huh?
The legal system isn't something you can dabble in, rather it is a big f*#%ing hammer waiting to smash you, since as a non-lawyer, it mostly doesn't like you.
-Darryl
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08:59 AM
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avengador1 Member
Posts: 35467 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
I bet I know what happened. On your employment application form you were probably asked if you had ever been charged with a criminal offense other than a minor traffic violation. You would have to then explain why, if you had been, even if you had been found not guilty. If you answered "no" to this question and they turn up the truth in your background check, they can refuse to hire you. They could also terminate you if they had already hired you, because you lied on your application.
I bet I know what happened. On your employment application form you were probably asked if you had ever been charged with a criminal offense other than a minor traffic violation. You would have to then explain why, if you had been, even if you had been found not guilty. If you answered "no" to this question and they turn up the truth in your background check, they can refuse to hire you. They could also terminate you if they had already hired you, because you lied on your application.
Its not entirely correct though. It asked if i was ever convicted not charged. Convicted and charged are 2 different things. But i got a call from them today and everything is fine I'm still on board with them.
And also for the record i was never placed under arrest just cited.
I am going to see about getting it expunged because its still bullsh*t that its on there.
[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 05-13-2011).]
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11:04 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31841 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
They could also terminate you if they had already hired you, because you lied on your application.
Yep, I've seen that before also. Actually, I fired a person once precisely because of that reason. The firing could not be challenged by the union. He was also far from being a star employee. The lesson here is, if you give your employer enough reason, there is almost always a reason you are no longer needed.
In the case I've mentioned, the union actually came to me with the information. I was unaware. Had the individual been terminated for other good but debatable reasons, the union would have had to defend him. Obviously, they wanted him gone also.
------------------ Ron
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11:05 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35893 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
"not guilty" means the DA didn't prove you were guilty. What you really needed was an innocent finding.
I tend to believe that a record, even a not guilty record should stand. If I were an employer and saw someone show up with a long string of not guilty cases against them, I wouldn't hire them. Maybe they didn't do what they were accused of or maybe not. But they are living too close to the edges of the law for me to be comfortable having them as an employee.
[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 05-13-2011).]
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11:22 AM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5423 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
If I were an employer and saw someone show up with a long string of not guilty cases against them, I wouldn't hire them. Maybe they didn't do what they were accused of or maybe not. But they are living too close to the edges of the law for me to be comfortable having them as an employee.
And in PK's case, it probably have been best to mention it at the time of the application, because it never looks good when its discovered later in the hiring process.
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11:30 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35893 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Doug85GT: "not guilty" means the DA didn't prove you were guilty. What you really needed was an innocent finding.
An innocent finding is like hen's teeth. Especially considering big gooberment has all the money that they need to prosecute. I believe it is great Britian law which allows defendants to recover costs associated with not guilty findings. Just as such as it is in American civil cases. American criminal cases should be the same way. Many say justice can be bought. Injustice can be too. Too many people just roll over when charged. I do know the difference in an innocent finding but one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Interesting that the two choices put before a jury are guilty or not guilty. How does one get an innocent finding ?
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11:32 AM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9469 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
An innocent finding is like hen's teeth. Especially considering big gooberment has all the money that they need to prosecute. I believe it is great Britian law which allows defendants to recover costs associated with not guilty findings. Just as such as it is in American civil cases. American criminal cases should be the same way. Many say justice can be bought. Injustice can be too. Too many people just roll over when charged. I do know the difference in an innocent finding but one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Interesting that the two choices put before a jury are guilty or not guilty. How does one get an innocent finding ?
A jury can find someone innocent. It is rare as you say. Even if it is not mentioned to them by the DA or judge, a defense attorney should at least mention it or advocate for it if they strongly feel that their client is innocent.
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11:42 AM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
I've found as a Security Manager for the military that it's far easier to just list the charge and the outcome than to "hide" that it even happened. When it came to the security clearance reviews with the investigators, most of the time they looked at the charge and the outcome and moved on. Many times chuckling about the incident and chocking it up to stupid youth. It was when people would hid an incident similar to yours, PK, that an investigator would crawl further up the backside and scrutinize things more. The question in their mind was, if the person was trying to hid this, what else are they trying to hide? Where else are they twisting their story?
You won't likely get a charge and found not guilty expunged. Many times, even when a charge is dropped, it's dropped with or without prejudice. (Meaning they can or cannot come back and charge you again if more evidence is found or you get charged with the same thing again.) The justice system will just tell you that you were found not guilty, move on.
In the future, just be honest and list it and show them that you were found not guilty.
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12:04 PM
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Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by twofatguys: The way I was explained it, you could be found not guilty because of reasons other than innocence, reasons beyond your control perhaps. Then you could be found innocent, that is that you had nothing to do with anything regarding the charges.
The court system doesn't render a positive finding of innocence. They try to convict, and if for any reason they cannot, you are found not guilty. "Not guilty" doesn't mean you were involved but had an excuse. It means there was not enough (or any) evidence to convict you.
If you're charged with murder, and then provide positive proof you were 1000 miles away at the time, you will be found not guilty if it goes to court. More often charges are dropped once innocence is proven unless it goes all the way to court before that happens.
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12:21 PM
WhiteDevil88 Member
Posts: 8518 From: Coastal California Registered: Mar 2007
You dont really need a layer to get it expunged if i wasent guilty of it But shouldn't it have been expunged all together with being found innocent
While true, if you don't want to have to spend the rest of your life explaining what happened you want to do that.
I have a similar issue in my distant past for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The charges were eventually found to be invalid and were tossed out of court, but it still sits on my record as it is not automatic to have it 'expunged', as one would have thought. I was also told that i cant do it myself as a citizen and i *have* to hire an attorney to file the paperwork. ( what a crock/scam )
When i get a chance to explain and show the results, its understood and ignored. Who knows how many times its been taken at face value that i don't even know about.
I hear ya....I have contracts at a place that had a supervisor/ co-worker who liked to run around the internet stiring up sheet about staff.....he has been off work for over 3 months after a serious "fall" or "something" on a flat parking lot, and from what I hear, he will be back in about 30 years or so. Or at least thats when the company owner says the type of equipment that was his specialty will be permitted on company property again.
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10:58 PM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
I seriously doubt he gave them his PFF Id on the application.
When my brother, and his Ex wife were fighting for custody, A thread I had started with my feelings on the case was introduced as evidence.
I did not use their names, or personal information in the thread, but the information was used to show how we "obviously didn't love his daughter", and I was "asked" to remove the post by the courts.
They found me with little to no personal information on here (back then), so I gave up trying to hide anything.
Brad
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11:46 PM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
