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How Religions Are Dealing With Their Congregations Rejoicing Of Osama's Death... by Boondawg
Started on: 05-09-2011 11:56 AM
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Last post by: 2.5 on 05-10-2011 11:49 AM
Boondawg
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Report this Post05-09-2011 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
SEATTLE -- In the first Sunday services since the death of Osama bin Laden, churches across the region reflected on questions of morality: How does one reconcile "love thy enemies" with killing Public Enemy #1?

"I think every one of the religions of the world supports life and not hate," said Father Paul Magnano of Christ Our Hope Church in downtown Seattle. "It's continuing his legacy if all we do is rejoice in his hatred, his death."

Deacon Larry McDonald said it concerned him to see images around the U.S. of people cheering "like it was some kind of athletic triumph," but he added that it is all right as long as people were cheering over the protection of innocent lives, as opposed to the death of a human being.

"I decided that evening as I watched that that I was going to talk about the sacredness of human life," said McDonald. "As Americans should we really be celebrating, because I think we're better than that?"

For those of the cloth, it seems to come down to celebrating relief versus revenge. While none of the clergy or churchgoers we spoke with deny that Bin Laden committed serious crimes, they also said their focus was on praying for peace.

It's not just Christian leaders.

"There is no doubt that this man was a thug, he was a murderer," Imam Hassan al-Qazwini told worshipers at the Islamic Center of America in the Detroit suburb of Dearborn. "His hands were stained by the blood of thousands of innocent people — Muslims and non-Muslims alike."

But while the imam said Bin Laden was "responsible for tarnishing the image of Islam in this country," he discouraged them from showing jubilation over the death.

On Tuesday, the Dalai Lama said though bin Laden may have deserved compassion as a human being, it's sometimes necessary to take counter-measures.

Reform Rabbi Eric Wisnia, of Princeton, N.J.'s Congregation Beth Chaim, said the human impulse to rejoice when an evil criminal is brought to justice is understandable, with one important caveat: "Had he been captured, I would have hoped we would have had the same celebration."

At Quest Church in Seattle's Magnolia neighborhood, Pastor Eugene Cho noticed similar discussions brewing from his members, in prayer services and on Facebook.

"It grieves me a little bit personally to see Christians particularly using words like 'I'm so happy' and 'I'm rejoicing' that we've killed bin Laden," he said. "We have to encourage people in our church... to think in more nuanced ways about the complexities of our world."

"We long for peace. We pray for peace. But we also can acknowledge that we live in a broken world where there is war and strife and tension," he added.

"I'm still processing a lot of what's been going on this last week," said churchgoer Vanessa Lee. "Whenever somebody in some entity is labeled as the other and as the enemy, I think it's just overly simplified."

"You definitely are excited and hope for a safer world," said Jake Buter, "There's mixed emotions and reactions."

Ultimately, Cho acknowledges the burden of faith may be having to forgive, even if you never forget.

"To love our enemies," he told his congregation, "I don't know if that's easy for you, but it's hard for me. To love our enemies."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42958077
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Scottzilla79
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Report this Post05-09-2011 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scottzilla79Send a Private Message to Scottzilla79Direct Link to This Post
Here is how the Church I work for is handling it. From the ministers' weekly email:

 
quote
Dr. King said the foundation for this method will be love. So when I hear voices echoing Jesus' directive to love our enemies in addition to our neighbors and selves, I feel hopeful. Day by day, those voices seem to be growing stronger. I'm choosing to direct my thoughts and prayer energy toward the expression of a paradigm sourced in a love that seeks to understand; a love that, if unable to forgive here and now, is willing to be willing.

Our Movement's mission declares, "Unity stands for peace in the presence of conflict." Some would say our history suggests a tendency to sit on the sidelines. Others would say giving attention to conflict perpetuates it.

While I believe it's true that energy flows where attention goes, I also believe there's an important distinction to be made between maintaining a consciousness of peace and remaining in the world but not of it. Mastering that balance is the act I believe Spirit is calling us to perform, individually and as a spiritual community.

For finding our community's balance between prayer and moving our feet, I invite you to participate in three events May 14 and 15:

1) An offsite seminar to strengthen bonds with our Arab, Moslem and Sikh neighbors.
2) Sunday's service featuring my lesson on using divine power to raise global consciousness.
3) A Global Peace Forum & Meditation after service.

As for honing your own balance between "being" and "doing," here's an
affirmation: "I bless the sacredness of life's unfolding, and I wield the transformative power of God within to shape it perfectly, as only I can."


I don't expect to see clergy in the US celebrating, and most will be calling for something similar to the above.
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2.5
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
To me this is not difficult. Justice is biblical. This is justice. Carried out by our government which was doing its job.
The people quoted in the OP are taking a few verses and looking at them out of context of the Bible, God not only offers forgiveness, he is just.

As for santity of life here is a perspective:
."If one person murders another person, the just penalty is to end the life of the murderer. This actually upholds the value of life. Anyone who violates life in premeditated murder should be put to death – proclaiming clear support for the value of life. The same can be true with war. War, while never a pleasant choice, in the right “just war” circumstances, actually preserves more life than it ends. Sometimes the best way to uphold the value of life is to end the lives of those seeking to destroy life.
In summary, it is entirely consistent for Christians to be pro-life when it comes to abortion and at the same time to support the death penalty and wars that are clearly just."

http://www.gotquestions.org...-life-war-death.html


http://www.gotquestions.org..._query=death+penalty

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-09-2011).]

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Boondawg
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
War, while never a pleasant choice, in the right “just war” circumstances, actually preserves more life than it ends.


You lose me with the use of the word "just".
Osama also thought he was "just".
"Just" is nothing more then opinion.

 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Sometimes the best way to uphold the value of life is to end the lives of those seeking to destroy life.


Is that like some kind of Zen riddle?
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Xerces_BlackthorneClick Here to Email Xerces_BlackthorneSend a Private Message to Xerces_BlackthorneDirect Link to This Post
My thoughts?

The bastahd deserved it and got what was coming to him... Eye for an eye and all that jazz...

But outside of that? I could give a rats behind wtf happened to him... Wasn't really affecting my life with him being alive (that can be argued, but I'm speaking in a more direct sense), so who cares?


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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


You lose me with the use of the word "just".
Osama also thought he was "just".
"Just" is nothing more then opinion.


I guess you'd have to tell me how setting out to kill innocent people could be just.
I believe in right and wrong, this puts me at a different starting point of viewing things than others sometimes.
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


Is that like some kind of Zen riddle?


I think they were just trying to sum it up in one sentence, not easy to do.

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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scottzilla79Send a Private Message to Scottzilla79Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


I guess you'd have to tell me how setting out to kill innocent people could be just.
I believe in right and wrong, this puts me at a different starting point of viewing things than others sometimes.


I guess one could refer to strategic bombing. It was just when we did it in the 2nd WW but not anymore. This same argument is going on in another thread though.
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Boondawg
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I guess you'd have to tell me how setting out to kill innocent people could be just.


He claimed the U.S. was invading his country, trying to change his peoples religion, and imprisoning & killing innocents, becouse of it.
He felt justified in his "retallliation".

As a country in previous wars, we too have killed innocent civilians and felt justified in doing so.
So the word "just" is just not good enough as a reason to kill.
One mans "just" is another mans "injust".....

P.S. Before someone accuses me of supporting Osama, terrorists, or the percieved "truth" behind any of anyones motivations, don't.
Becouse I do not.

 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I believe in right and wrong.


Doesn't everyone?
It's just usually their own brand of it, which is the problem.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-09-2011).]

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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Scottzilla79:

I guess one could refer to strategic bombing. It was just when we did it in the 2nd WW but not anymore. This same argument is going on in another thread though.


Well, I'm referencing the opening post only, regarding Osama.
I'm not saying no American ever did anything "unjust" in any war don't get me wrong.
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


He claimed the U.S. was invading his country, trying to change his peoples religion, and imprisoning & killing innocents, becouse of it.
He felt justified in his retaliation.

As a country in previous wars, we too have killed innocent civilians and felt justified in doing so.

So the word "just" is just not good enough.

P.S. Before someone accuses me of supporting Osama, terrorists, or the percieved "truth" behind any of anyones motivations, don't.
Becouse I do not.


If we were killing innocents, then we were wrong too.
But not wrong in executing someone who killed innocents.

Make any sense?
Just is good enough, the thing about it is we can't know everything to determin what is just all the time, but what actually happened happened, you know?
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


He claimed the U.S. was invading his country, trying to change his peoples religion, and imprisoning & killing innocents, becouse of it.
He felt justified in his retaliation.



Retaliation/revenge is never justified. Justice is. Innocents for innocents cannot be justified.
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

...the thing about it is we can't know everything to determine what is just all the time...


Agreed.
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Report this Post05-09-2011 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post

Boondawg

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Retaliation/revenge is never justified. Justice is. .


Sometimes justice is used as a mask, covering a reckoning....

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Report this Post05-09-2011 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:

He felt justified in his "retallliation".


"justified" does not mean the same thing as "just."
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Report this Post05-09-2011 07:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for htexans1Click Here to Email htexans1Send a Private Message to htexans1Direct Link to This Post
There was nothing sacred about what Osama Bin Laden did and the Taliban continues to do. They pervert religon and its values into a nationalistic goal.

Islam has nothing to do with:
"Outside armies out of AF/Iraq"
"attacking civilian targets in the US"
and interfering in the Palestinian and Israeli conflict.

all of these are secular and involve land. None have nothing to do with religion.

As for celebrating Osamas' death, they celebrated on 9/11, so why can't we celebrate when we get payback? (OPINION)

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 05-09-2011).]

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Report this Post05-09-2011 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


"justified" does not mean the same thing as "just."


I'm sure he felt that his "retalliation" was just.

My point being that "just" is subjective.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-09-2011).]

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Report this Post05-09-2011 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageClick Here to Email randyeSend a Private Message to randyeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


I'm sure he felt that his "retalliation" was just.

My point being that "just" is subjective.



5 additional posts simply to say that you believe in moral relativism?
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Report this Post05-09-2011 07:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote


"I think every one of the religions of the world supports life and not hate"


i always find statements like that to be funny, considering more people have died due to 'holy wars' in man's history than any thing else.

[This message has been edited by Nurb432 (edited 05-09-2011).]

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Report this Post05-09-2011 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:


5 additional posts simply to say that you believe in moral relativism?


No, just that claiming something is "just" is of no real value.
Not if it can be used by both by bad men & good men with equal belief.
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Report this Post05-09-2011 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post

Boondawg

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Member since Jun 2003
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:


i always find statements like that to be funny, considering more people have died due to 'holy wars' in man's history than any thing else.


Your quote of it looks like I said it.
I did not.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 05-09-2011).]

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Report this Post05-09-2011 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


Your quote of it looks like I said it.
I did not.



fixed
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Report this Post05-09-2011 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:


fixed


But I do wish it were true...
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Report this Post05-09-2011 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FlambergeSend a Private Message to FlambergeDirect Link to This Post
We are not celebrating the death of a human being, we are celebrating that an enemy of the US is no more. Huge difference many seem to not understand.
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Report this Post05-10-2011 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


No, just that claiming something is "just" is of no real value.
Not if it can be used by both by bad men & good men with equal belief.


Hence relativism I suppose. In insert the word "right" where "just" is, not much changes. You could even insert "for the good of all" and be left with interpretation of what is "good". Everything can be taken in a relative way. There needs to be a standard. To me, there is.
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