quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: It was occasionally comforting to be somewhere where more often than not I was hated SOLELY because I was an American.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: And my point isn't to stop the Birther issue because it's wrong... It's because it makes us look like idiots. Republicans will usually vote Republican. Democrats will usually vote Democrat. The vote really lies in the hands of Centrists, who maybe are more libertarian. Maybe they like the social aspects of the left, but monetary values of the Right. Or, vice versa. The point is, each side should be appealing to them... and I can tell you right now that the birth issue does NOT appeal to people in the center. They think it's ridiculous that anyone would believe he wasn't born in America. Regardless of if that is the Birthers' goal, it is the mark that is made. So this isn't getting votes--at least I don't see this coming to that. I see this losing a LOT of votes, and nothing substantially positive will ever come out of it. So I would love for it all to just come to a close.. impress the Centrists by other means and get them on our side. That's how we win.

Pretty Smart Bdub.. I think you hit it right on the head.

As an independent, I have to say that the "birthers" are making it real hard to take the RIght seriously with all of their paranoid behavior and shadowboxing. I imagine my feelings run right along with lots of other people who are self-identified independents/centrists. If any opposing candidate tries to make that part of their presidential bid, they are signing the death warrant for their presidential campaign. We're sick of it and have been for a long time. Present real facts on REAL issues, and I could be swayed. So could others. As far as I am concerned, anyone candidate who continues to posture that Obama still was not born here is just hurting the chance to beat Obama in 2012, not helping,

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Also, I did in fact mount a rather fervent defense of the US in my discussion with the grandfather, reminding him specifically that the same society which is demonstrably "unwissend" enough to keep this whole birther BS alive is also the same society that was enlightened enough to finally elect a non-white to the presidency....something a European nation has yet to do.

Maybe they should be reminded that the funny little Austrian became an official German citizen only one month before his run for their presidency.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: I think if Newf is a troll then I am as well. I think we kinda do the same thing just from different sides of the spectrum. You shouldn't be called a troll if you challenge people's logic or beliefs. It's healthy debate.

No, you are totally a troll. Just kidding man. Thanks BTW.

" Obama isn't some terrorist up there in office "

Id have my doubts. He talks like one, acts like one............you know what the saying is about ducks dont you ? The ONLY thing I can think of at the moment he done good was hand out all those $250 'loans'. I didnt need it, but I took it....im not stupid. All your kids will still be paying that back for next 10 years. The best way to bring about a downfall of anything is to put someone in charge thats on YOUR payroll. You can wipe whatever it is out and not lose a thing yourself...you wont even have to reveal yourself.

quote Originally posted by newf: Sure we can agree that you cannot back up your statments and now are bowing out of the conversation. I'm glad we agree also.

I'm not bowing out of anything, I'm simply having connectivity issues.

I never said I was backing out of anything, you said that.

I quoted you saying you were a troll.

Speaking of not backing up statements, I can't help but notice that you have yet to answer a single question I have asked, and I am simply returning the favor.

Brad

quote Originally posted by Steel: Not only are there issues with a layered/altered image. But the number on the certificate has been proven to not be correct. They have a proven valid birth certificate from twins born a day or two after him and the number sequence doesn't correlate. It shows Obama as having been born after them, their #'s are lower than his... his should be lower than theirs.

That could very well be due to the fact that they simply just have a bunch of these sheets printed out, and stored in the birthing rooms.

When my daughter was born, there was a whole stack of brand new birth certificates sitting in a vertical file holder hanging off the side of the warming light thingy (where they put the baby when they clean her up, weigh her, and keep her warm).

They were pre-numbered, but there were also tons of birthing rooms, so for all we know, they could have just had stacks of these (assum much hasn't changed) and if some kids were born before or after the numbering sequence, it would just mean that they were probably born in different rooms. Sometimes they leave the mothers in the rooms longer, etc...

The hospital I was at, the birthing room was like a luxury hotel room. But after about 6 hours after the birth, then they moved her to a recovery room. It's possible that in some hotels the birthing rooms and the recovery rooms are one in the same, which would explain that.

Or... maybe even some doctors have their own stacks of pre-printed forms, so if one was off on vacation, it would mean that his stack in his office would be out of sequence.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: I think if Newf is a troll then I am as well. I think we kinda do the same thing just from different sides of the spectrum. You shouldn't be called a troll if you challenge people's logic or beliefs. It's healthy debate.

Challenging and attacking are two different things.

He pops into a thread, asks some seemingly simple questions, then blasts every answer given. He then refuses to answer any questions, and then starts calling the people that he doesn't agree with names.

He is the definition of a troll. That doesn't mean he should stop posting. It doesn't mean anything really. But I think he should recognize himself as such at the very least.

He has a very long record of standing up for anything "Obama", nothing that is said to him will sway his opinion, and he doesn't care to hear anything else, he only wants to bait people into an argument, so that he can make them look bad.

That is the problem I have, and that is what pisses me off. newf doesn't want to have an open discussion, if he did he would answer questions, and actually read some of the posts made, instead he trolls for a single person, separates them from the group, and then does this passive aggressive attack that is meant to make the other guy look ignorant.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Challenging and attacking are two different things. He pops into a thread, asks some seemingly simple questions, then blasts every answer given. He then refuses to answer any questions, and then starts calling the people that he doesn't agree with names. He is the definition of a troll. That doesn't mean he should stop posting. It doesn't mean anything really. But I think he should recognize himself as such at the very least. He has a very long record of standing up for anything "Obama", nothing that is said to him will sway his opinion, and he doesn't care to hear anything else, he only wants to bait people into an argument, so that he can make them look bad. That is the problem I have, and that is what pisses me off. newf doesn't want to have an open discussion, if he did he would answer questions, and actually read some of the posts made, instead he trolls for a single person, separates them from the group, and then does this passive aggressive attack that is meant to make the other guy look ignorant. Brad

I have never felt attacked by him. I've been frustrated with him at times, not feeling like he answered my question fully. But I believe everyone can see that.
When I have little arguments on here, and my opponent won't answer my questions are resorts to smartalecy-ness, I feel as though I have won the argument and that is how I see it from the sidelines as well. Even if I agree with the someone, when they refuse to answer a question they have lost the debate.
For you to insist on calling him troll only makes you look worse. Take the high road, keep your boots clean.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That could very well be due to the fact that they simply just have a bunch of these sheets printed out, and stored in the birthing rooms. When my daughter was born, there was a whole stack of brand new birth certificates sitting in a vertical file holder hanging off the side of the warming light thingy (where they put the baby when they clean her up, weigh her, and keep her warm). They were pre-numbered, but there were also tons of birthing rooms, so for all we know, they could have just had stacks of these (assum much hasn't changed) and if some kids were born before or after the numbering sequence, it would just mean that they were probably born in different rooms. Sometimes they leave the mothers in the rooms longer, etc... The hospital I was at, the birthing room was like a luxury hotel room. But after about 6 hours after the birth, then they moved her to a recovery room. It's possible that in some hotels the birthing rooms and the recovery rooms are one in the same, which would explain that. Or... maybe even some doctors have their own stacks of pre-printed forms, so if one was off on vacation, it would mean that his stack in his office would be out of sequence.

Or find the person who was born third after the twins.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Challenging and attacking are two different things. He pops into a thread, asks some seemingly simple questions, then blasts every answer given. He then refuses to answer any questions, and then starts calling the people that he doesn't agree with names. He is the definition of a troll. That doesn't mean he should stop posting. It doesn't mean anything really. But I think he should recognize himself as such at the very least. He has a very long record of standing up for anything "Obama", nothing that is said to him will sway his opinion, and he doesn't care to hear anything else, he only wants to bait people into an argument, so that he can make them look bad. That is the problem I have, and that is what pisses me off. newf doesn't want to have an open discussion, if he did he would answer questions, and actually read some of the posts made, instead he trolls for a single person, separates them from the group, and then does this passive aggressive attack that is meant to make the other guy look ignorant. Brad

Are you friggin serious?? Really? Where is it I am not having an open discussion? You keep making these claims without backing them up.

What Questions have I not answered to your satisfaction? Please show me and I will certainly do so.

I have yet to see how I am trolling in any way, in fact your constant use of that derogatory name to describe me without backing it up is insulting and ignorant.

Show examples using an valid definition of trolling instead of constantly throwing out the name.

You accused me of trolling in this thread because I asked a question now prove it.

quote Originally posted by newf: I responded in kind to your trite response. Again what questions have you asked. Speaking of which why is it you haven't answered mine again???

I have not answered yours because you have refused time after time to answer any questions.

I'm not digging through threads to find them, I don't care that much. My work here is done, you are no longer trolling the guy you started out to troll.

Now I will go back to the thread I originally found so interesting.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would finding the births between President Obama, and the twins show anything?

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I have not answered yours because you have refused time after time to answer any questions. I'm not digging through threads to find them, I don't care that much. My work here is done, you are no longer trolling the guy you started out to troll. Now I will go back to the thread I originally found so interesting.

Honestly Brad if you can't back things up or finish a discussion I will appreciate it if you do not call me names anymore as it is something you have accused others of doing and you find offensive, so I assume you are meaning to offend when you do it.

I apologize to anyone for getting this thread of topic but when I am attacked I feel it necessary to defend myself.

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: No, but my employers have all needed to see my birth certificate BEFORE hiring me. As one of the many employers of the POTUS(even though I didn't vote for him and never wanted him in office, as a taxpayer, I am on the "board of directors", so to speak, of this great nation and, as such, his employer), I wanted to see his birth certificate BEFORE him entering office. How hard is that?

Just a comment on your premise here. If, when being hired, you have ever been required or even asked to provide your certificate of birth, then that employer was in violation of federal laws. A birth certificate is only one of a list of documents that establishes employment eligibility, and an employer cannot specify which documents they will require as long as employment eligibility is satisfied.

But do go on with the crazytalk.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: Maybe they should be reminded that the funny little Austrian became an official German citizen only one month before his run for their presidency.

Not my style, actually. In my opinion, one has a better chance of converting another to his/her point of view by demonstrating the inherent strengths of one's own position, not by simply pointing out the inherent weaknesses in theirs.

quote Originally posted by newf: Honestly Brad if you can't back things up or finish a discussion I will appreciate it if you do not call me names anymore as it is something you have accused others of doing and you find offensive, so I assume you are meaning to offend when you do it. I apologize to anyone for getting this thread of topic but when I am attacked I feel it necessary to defend myself.

Why what would you like me to call you? I assume Sir. would be an insult to gentlemen across the world.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Why what would you like me to call you? I assume Sir. would be an insult to gentlemen across the world. Brad

Actually scratch what I originally said, you go ahead and call me any name you wish, I think it helps show your character.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 04-28-2011).]

'The Donald' and the other "birthers" have been going full throttle down a dead end street.
The thinly veiled "he isn't one of our kind" strategy may play to some people in some places, but mainstream America, whether progressive or conservative, has always seen the so called 'birthers' as kind of strange.
And the thinly veiled racist undertones are so obvious that only a few have missed it.
Is this the end of the "birther" movement?
I doubt it.
I'm 60 years old, and I've seen this kind of thing many times before.
Stupid just won't die, no matter what.



------------------

Drive safely!

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Just a comment on your premise here. If, when being hired, you have ever been required or even asked to provide your certificate of birth, then that employer was in violation of federal laws. A birth certificate is only one of a list of documents that establishes employment eligibility, and an employer cannot specify which documents they will require as long as employment eligibility is satisfied. But do go on with the crazytalk.

Must have been changed recently, I have had several jobs where I have had to present my birth certificate, along with my license, and SS card.

I also had to deliver my birth certificate to be allowed clearance on a few job sites around 4 years ago. That was after the license, and SS card.


Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Must have been changed recently, I have had several jobs where I have had to present my birth certificate, along with my license, and SS card. I also had to deliver my birth certificate to be allowed clearance on a few job sites around 4 years ago. That was after the license, and SS card. Brad

Nah, probably is asked for federal security clearances. Also, it is a requirement for the job of President, but the constitution trumps labor law, not to mention the government usually exempts itself from most of the rules it makes. No crazy talk if Rallaster was referring to jobs that required security clearance.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I'm only a mirror. Enjoy. Brad

Sorry man, I can back up what I say, you more an empty reflection or some kind of sad wannabe.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: 'The Donald' and the other "birthers" have been going full throttle down a dead end street. The thinly veiled "he isn't one of our kind" strategy may play to some people in some places, but mainstream America, whether progressive or conservative, has always seen the so called 'birthers' as kind of strange. And the thinly veiled racist undertones are so obvious that only a few have missed it. Is this the end of the "birther" movement? I doubt it. I'm 60 years old, and I've seen this kind of thing many times before. Stupid just won't die, no matter what.

And throwing out the race card to the whole is pretty pathetic.
Stupid just won't die, no matter what.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: And throwing out the race card to the whole is pretty pathetic. Stupid just won't die, no matter what.

Thank you.

Sometimes "throwing out the race card" as you so predictably put it is entirely appropriate.
This is one of those times.
Your answer served to illustrate my point much better than I ever could.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by tbone42: Present real facts on REAL issues, and I could be swayed. So could others.

Unfortunately, the rest of the population doesn't care all that much about real issues. Plus real facts about important issues aren't as entertaining to the general public.

So let's continue with pointless drivel!

This race card crapola is getting tired, a prime example of ignorance at it's worst. In fact may be hate speech, for sure it's bigotry. Oh the irony.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Thank you. Sometimes "throwing out the race card" as you so predictably put it is entirely appropriate. This is one of those times. Your answer served to illustrate my point much better than I ever could.

He said calling a whole group racist. You think that not one of the birthers isn't racist?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Thank you. Sometimes "throwing out the race card" as you so predictably put it is entirely appropriate. This is one of those times. Your answer served to illustrate my point much better than I ever could.

This edit makes less sense that the comment you edited out.

Nick

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Not my style, actually. In my opinion, one has a better chance of converting another to his/her point of view by demonstrating the inherent strengths of one's own position, not by simply pointing out the inherent weaknesses in theirs.

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by partfiero: This edit makes less sense that the comment you edited out.

Yes, I imagine that to you it does.
Sometimes the obvious is hard to see when You're immersed in it.
Not gonna get into a pizzing contest with you or anyone else here because I know I'm outnumbered.
I've stated my point, that the birth certificate was NEVER the real issue here.
That seems pretty easy to see, I think.
Either you get it or you don't.

Best Regards, NEPTUNE.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by theBDub: And my point isn't to stop the Birther issue because it's wrong... It's because it makes us look like idiots. Republicans will usually vote Republican. Democrats will usually vote Democrat. The vote really lies in the hands of Centrists, who maybe are more libertarian. Maybe they like the social aspects of the left, but monetary values of the Right. Or, vice versa. The point is, each side should be appealing to them... and I can tell you right now that the birth issue does NOT appeal to people in the center. They think it's ridiculous that anyone would believe he wasn't born in America. Regardless of if that is the Birthers' goal, it is the mark that is made. So this isn't getting votes--at least I don't see this coming to that. I see this losing a LOT of votes, and nothing substantially positive will ever come out of it. So I would love for it all to just come to a close.. impress the Centrists by other means and get them on our side. That's how we win.

Obama didn't win solely because traditional democrats and undecided swing voters chose him--he pulled a lot of moderate republicans as well who were turned off by McCain. Among these are undoubtedly many thousands if not more, who--according to recent polls-have doubts about the birth certificate issue. (Or had doubts until yesterday) They may indeed have believed he met all qualifications, but had doubts when it came to the questions of "Why would he not show this long form? Why seal his records at all if he had nothing to hide?" . There was, for the President, absolutley no upside or good political reason for this to have been drug out for so long--none. Presidential elections get closer each decade it seems, and every vote counts. I can't imagine an individual voting one way or another, based on what other voters might believe--it isn't the "birthers" who are running for office. I can't imagine myself being swayed in my vote, based on what question another voter raised or thought on an issue, no matter the magnitude of that issue, but I can be swayed on how a candidate chooses to react to such a question.
People vote for candidates and their stances on issues--not on constituents' stances.

For instance: I would not vote for an anti-gun ownership candidate, but there have been candidates, who were in favor of the 2nd amendment, even tho his party had a segment strongly against private gun ownership. I would equally, never autmatically eliminate voting for that candidate simply because some of his more vocal party members or constituents didn't echo my thoughts on this issue--UNLESS the candidate himself offered a dubious or wishy washy opinion on the issue. There are a lot of Conservatives very much in favor of "gun control" and are quite vocal about it (also a large # of Liberals in favor of full 2nd amendment rights) but no mmatter what each of these groups within the party may shout about, it is only the candidate himself I am concerned with. "Is he a strong gun ownership candidate--is he willing to publicly show that he is? What is his past voting record on the issue?".

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: 'The Donald' and the other "birthers" have been going full throttle down a dead end street. The thinly veiled "he isn't one of our kind" strategy may play to some people in some places, but mainstream America, whether progressive or conservative, has always seen the so called 'birthers' as kind of strange. And the thinly veiled racist undertones are so obvious that only a few have missed it.

Cut "The Donald" some slack there, fella...

According to his own admission, he has a GREAT relationship with "The Blacks."

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Just a comment on your premise here. If, when being hired, you have ever been required or even asked to provide your certificate of birth, then that employer was in violation of federal laws. A birth certificate is only one of a list of documents that establishes employment eligibility, and an employer cannot specify which documents they will require as long as employment eligibility is satisfied. But do go on with the crazytalk.

Point taken and I concede on that point. I have just always used my birth certificate because it was the easiest for me.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Yes, I imagine that to you it does. Sometimes the obvious is hard to see when You're immersed in it. Not gonna get into a pizzing contest with you or anyone else here because I know I'm outnumbered. I've stated my point, that the birth certificate was NEVER the real issue here. That seems pretty easy to see, I think. Either you get it or you don't. Best Regards, NEPTUNE.

Just like you to piss on someones shoes(Calling folks you don't even know racists), then not want to get into a pissing contest.
KIPIYP! (Keep Your Peter In Your Pants)
Best Regards!

The first time I heard the birth certificate thing I thought it may be true. Why? I don't like him personally, he strikes me as an arrogant phony(can't even name a few White Sox players!). I detest his ideology. I think his presidency is at best 4 wasted years. I want to believe there was a way to undo his election.
NOT BECAUSE HE IS BLACK. I would gladly swap Obama for Colin Powell.
I'm a racist? Do I have to list the demographics of my friends, family, and lovers?
BTW, I moved on after they posted the short form and the Hawaii paper having his birth announcement at the time.
I think he has been holding the long form back for two reasons:
1. He doesn't like anyone telling him what to do. (I can respect that.) 2. He's been using it to paint the right as a bunch of racist loons.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: I've stated my point, that the birth certificate was NEVER the real issue here.

WRONG. The racism exists mostly in the minds of liberals and Democrats, because it serves their purpose to call it racism.