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Wait... Hitler made it to Argentina? (F.O.I.A. Documents) by ryan.hess
Started on: 04-10-2011 04:12 PM
Replies: 23
Last post by: OKflyboy on 04-11-2011 05:11 PM
ryan.hess
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Report this Post04-10-2011 04:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post04-10-2011 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FlambergeSend a Private Message to FlambergeDirect Link to This Post
Not sure if the document isn't just one of the many possibilities the intelligence community no doubt put forth at the time.

I'm pretty sure he took the coward's way out in a bunker in Berlin as the Russians destroyed every last shred of Germany's dignity.

I'm not saying Germany didn't deserve what it got, but a lot of German people just wanted to live their life and emerge from the debt they had to pay for another piss poor leader (Kaiser) who dragged their country through a costly war just twenty one years prior.
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Report this Post04-10-2011 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
He was on his death bed even if he didn't take the easy way out. His health was pretty miserable by then and the only reason he was moving was due to the drugs they kept giving him.

His health and subsequent mental deterioration is the only reason we aren't speaking German now..
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Report this Post04-10-2011 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OKflyboySend a Private Message to OKflyboyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:

His health and subsequent mental deterioration is the only reason we aren't speaking German now..


I've known a few Vets who would take SERIOUS issue with the bold portion of that statement,

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 04-10-2011).]

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Zeb
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Report this Post04-10-2011 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ZebSend a Private Message to ZebDirect Link to This Post
Oh, come on. "We heard from a newspaper reporter who got a letter from some guy who met a guy who said he wanted to make sure he didn't get sent back to Argentina, but, he knows the names of the guys who helped Hitler off a sub."

And yes, the FBI has to report, record, and investigate poop like this. Life as an FBI agent must not be as exciting as we'd hoped. If you believe ANY of that, I've got a deal for you! I met a guy who has a friend, who knows somebody who can get you a great deal on this bridge.
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Report this Post04-10-2011 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by OKflyboy:


I've known a few Vets who would take SERIOUS issue with the bold portion of that statement,



So do I, but don't forget we got all of our atomic bomb and rocket technology from the Germans after their defeat. We didn't even bother with our own much since it was so far behind what they were doing. Had Germany stayed in the war another few years, they could have completed their atomic bomb before we had anything comparable. If the first two atomic bombs dropped were on London and Paris instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, imagine the course the war would have taken.
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Report this Post04-10-2011 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Black LotusSend a Private Message to Black LotusDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


So do I, but don't forget we got all of our atomic bomb and rocket technology from the Germans after their defeat. We didn't even bother with our own much since it was so far behind what they were doing. Had Germany stayed in the war another few years, they could have completed their atomic bomb before we had anything comparable. If the first two atomic bombs dropped were on London and Paris instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, imagine the course the war would have taken.

Sounds pretty mixed up to me.


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Report this Post04-10-2011 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ZebSend a Private Message to ZebDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


So do I, but don't forget we got all of our atomic bomb and rocket technology from the Germans after their defeat. We didn't even bother with our own much since it was so far behind what they were doing. Had Germany stayed in the war another few years, they could have completed their atomic bomb before we had anything comparable. If the first two atomic bombs dropped were on London and Paris instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, imagine the course the war would have taken.


I'll concede German rocket and jet thechnology were superior, but atomic bomb technology? VE Day was May 8, 1945, the first atomic detonation was on July, 16, 1945, and we bombed Hiroshima on August 6, 1945. So, between May 8th and July 16, we captured their scientists, debreifed them, abandonded our approach, and consturcted new devices?

I think I'm gonna have to disagree on that one point.
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OKflyboy
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Report this Post04-10-2011 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OKflyboySend a Private Message to OKflyboyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


So do I, but don't forget we got all of our atomic bomb and rocket technology from the Germans after their defeat. We didn't even bother with our own much since it was so far behind what they were doing.


wat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

Edit -

 
quote
Originally posted by Zeb:
VE Day was May 8, 1945, the first atomic detonation was on July, 16, 1945, and we bombed Hiroshima on August 6, 1945. So, between May 8th and July 16, we captured their scientists, debreifed them, abandonded our approach, and consturcted new devices?


This.

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 04-10-2011).]

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Formula88
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Report this Post04-10-2011 11:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Yeah, rocket tech.
I was thinking atomic bomb tech too because Einstein was involved, but that was only in his letter to the U.S. before VE.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageClick Here to Email normsfSend a Private Message to normsfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by OKflyboy:


I've known a few Vets who would take SERIOUS issue with the bold portion of that statement,



Hello this is a good point, and not to take anything from those Vets who were the Greatest generation. Had Hitler listened to his generals, yes WW2 could have lasted a lot longer.
1 not invade Russia at least so early
2 Continue operation Sea Lion and invade and occupy England this would have prevented the Allies from using England as a huge base, at that time Hitler has control of all of Europe and was at the height of his power. England was on the ropes and down for the count. They barely got most of their troops out of Dunkirk
3 not bombing the English cities in retailition of one accidental run on Berlin, this concentration on the cities allowed the British to rebuild their airbases and war manufacturing base (more and better planes the Spitfire), which were being bombed before.
4 Allow and resupply Rommel in Africa to secure oil fields.
5 Making the ME262 which was the first combat jet aircraft a bomber instead of a intercepter as it was really designed for in the begining.
6 not fully funding the Horton Bomber, which is what we get our B2 bomber from
7 his failure to fully appreciate the British Radar system which gave early warning in The Battle of Britan.
These are just a few mistakes he made not even mentioning not allowing the Panzer Divisions from Calias to be diverted to Normandy. Remember the German public believed in him absolutly right up to the end and would have done anything for him.

[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 04-11-2011).]

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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageClick Here to Email normsfSend a Private Message to normsfDirect Link to This Post
Hello just thought of a couple more
1 his refusal to allow his top general to break out of Stalingrad before they were completly surrounded and fight to the death which resulted in them being staved and eventually surrendered hundreds of thousands of good troops. The Russian campaign was a disaster even while at first the German troops were welcomed as liberators until they dealt with the occupied people horribly.
2 One thing that almost went right for Hitler was his so called Battle of the Bulge which took the Allies completly by surprise as they thought the Germans were beaten and had no real army left. Hitler took basicly his remaining Panzer divisons with the new Tiger and Panther tanks and almost overrun the Allies positon to try and throw them back to Normandy, had he not run out of gas for his heavy tanks and trucks he might have done it plus at first the weather was perfect for them as the allies couldnt use their airpower because of the snowy and overcast sky conditions.

Im sure there are many more examples of his mistakes, but then every war plan goes out the window the second the first shot is fired, that why Libya is a mess now, oops.

[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 04-11-2011).]

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maryjane
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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by normsf:


Hello this is a good point, and not to take anything from those Vets who were the Greatest generation. Had Hitler listened to his generals, yes WW2 could have lasted a lot longer.
1 not invade Russia at least so early
2 Continue operation Sea Lion and invade and occupy England this would have prevented the Allies from using England as a huge base, at that time Hitler has control of all of Europe and was at the height of his power. England was on the ropes and down for the count. They barely got most of their troops out of Dunkirk
3 not bombing the English cities in retailition of one accidental run on Berlin, this concentration on the cities allowed the British to rebuild their airbases and war manufacturing base (more and better planes the Spitfire), which were being bombed before.
4 Allow and resupply Rommel in Africa to secure oil fields.
5 Making the ME262 which was the first combat jet aircraft a bomber instead of a intercepter as it was really designed for in the begining.
6 not fully funding the Horton Bomber, which is what we get our B2 bomber from
7 his failure to fully appreciate the British Radar system which gave early warning in The Battle of Britan.
These are just a few mistakes he made not even mentioning not allowing the Panzer Divisions from Calias to be diverted to Normandy. Remember the German public believed in him absolutly right up to the end and would have done anything for him.



Kinda hard to accomplish all that when your enemies are bombing the crap out of your motherland day and night, while they assemble an invading army metaphorically large enough to sink England.
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normsf
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Report this Post04-11-2011 01:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageClick Here to Email normsfSend a Private Message to normsfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


Kinda hard to accomplish all that when your enemies are bombing the crap out of your motherland day and night, while they assemble an invading army metaphorically large enough to sink England.


hello you would be correct, but remember Operation Sea Lion was during 1940. Hitler had Total control of all Europe, Germany had everything going for them berlin and Germany were far from getting bombed at that time. America had not even entered the war until early in 1942, remember Dec 7 1941. Had Hitler invaded England when he was looking at the great cliffs of Dover through his glasses, the allies could never have use England as a airbase to deliever those bombs later on in 44 and 45 remember D-Day the largest ever invasion force ever assembled until we entered Kuwait was June 6 1944. To me this was one of Hitlers biggest failures, not taking England when England was done. Winston Churchills greatest speech was at that time when he said " we will never give in, never give in" but in reality they had nothing except 21 miles or so of sea of the English Channel

http://www.historylearnings...peration_sealion.htm

[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 04-11-2011).]

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maryjane
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Report this Post04-11-2011 01:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Lots of "ifs"

Hitler, early on, never seriously considered invading England (his staff and generals did tho)
He liked England and even openly admired Churchill.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 01:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageClick Here to Email normsfSend a Private Message to normsfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Lots of "ifs"

Hitler, early on, never seriously considered invading England (his staff and generals did tho)
He liked England and even openly admired Churchill.


Hello, yes you are correct, thats what makes history so much fun and something that can be learned from. Thats why we have a War college at West Point so that our military leaders can learn from every important battle the mistakes made and not to repeat them. Unfortunatly Politics get in the way, which is what were seeing today in the middle east.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gokart MozartClick Here to visit Gokart Mozart's HomePageSend a Private Message to Gokart MozartDirect Link to This Post

Several mistakes have been suggested:
1.He did not demand the entry of Spain on the side of the Axis.
2.He stopped air superiority bombing in favor of terror bombing in England.
3.He delayed his invasion of the Soviet Union to invade the Balkans and help out Italy in its failed invasion of Greece.
4.He underestimated the manpower and resiliency of the Soviet Union (a big mistake).
5.He diverted assets from the drive on Moscow in 1941 and did not take it.
6.In the 1942 offensive he split his forces in an attempt to take two strategic objectives: Stalingrad and the Caucasus. He made the problem worse by diverting forces from Stalingrad to the Caucasus.
7.He refused to let his encircled 6th army try to break out of Stalingrad.
8.He did not require Japan to declare war on USSR in return for Germany declaring war on the US (another big mistake).
9.He did not suspect that the Western powers had cracked his communication codes until it was too late.
10.He was late in sending sufficient troops soon enough to Rommel in Africa. When he did send large numbers, it was too late and he lost them all.
11.He often did not follow the advice of his General Staff, particularly in regard to ceding territory to gain maneuver.
12.He did not commit all his available panzer divisions to the defense of Normandy quickly enough.
13.He did not put Germany on a total war economy until 1942 or even 1943.
14.He did not put enough resources into the development of an atomic bomb.
15.He chose major allies that were of little use to him.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/W...he_war#ixzz1JDn31zQI
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JazzMan
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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Germans were making heavy water for nuclear weapons research in the 1930's. Plant got blown up for the final time in 1943 but had been subject to attacks since 1940. What heavy water they did make we sank when they were trying to transfer it back to the Homeland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...heavy_water_sabotage

The war wasn't won by any single event. It was a conglomeration of tens of thousands of events of varying importance over many years. The Germans were as advanced in atomic physics as we were, perhaps even more so, so there wasn't any real fundamental single reason why they couldn't have developed a functional nuclear bomb in time to use it before we did on Japan. It just so happened that we were able to mess up their program and hinder it enough to cause them to fail at that particular goal.

To claim that any one event or person, or group, or entity, alone, was crucial to the way the war progressed is to ignore a lot.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OKflyboySend a Private Message to OKflyboyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
To claim that any one event or person, or group, or entity, alone, was crucial to the way the war progressed is to ignore a lot.


I agree completely.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ZebSend a Private Message to ZebDirect Link to This Post
Hitler's Number One Mistake:

Being @#%$&* CRAZY !
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Report this Post04-11-2011 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GridlockClick Here to Email GridlockSend a Private Message to GridlockDirect Link to This Post
Everything else is secondary to the following:

Don't piss off Russia!

As soon as he failed to capture Moscow, the war was over.

You can argue the smaller mistakes, and changes made to the plan and so on, but if he captured Moscow, he'd be unstoppable.

Ultimately, Germans would end up glowing a little in the dark after Berlin got nuked, but no one knew that until '45.

Well, would have been around '46, as if memory serves, they were out of plutonium.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FlambergeSend a Private Message to FlambergeDirect Link to This Post
Had Germany maintained its new treaty with Russia, we'd all hail "Germania" as the world capitol. Russia was the biggest mistake Hitler made. There were many many others, but this is was the one stopped his momentum and turned the tide.

I am glad Germany lost but I like a lot of the german secret weapons being developed throughout the war. My favorites include the ME-262 Swallow/Stormbird, the Blohm & Voss 206.03, and the Type 19 U-Boat.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by OKflyboy:


I've known a few Vets who would take SERIOUS issue with the bold portion of that statement,



Not meaning to disrespect them, but if he didn't get mentally derailed they would have had the bomb and a way to deliver it long before us, and no matter how good our guys on the ground were/are, we would have all be dead or speaking German. His goal was to eradicate us, not just take over. Our goals were far more 'moral', which would put us at a disadvantage.
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Report this Post04-11-2011 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OKflyboySend a Private Message to OKflyboyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:


Not meaning to disrespect them, .


I didn't think you were trying to be disrespectful, I was just trying to illustrate one aspect of what Jazz actually summed up pretty well with:

 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
To claim that any one event or person, or group, or entity, alone, was crucial to the way the war progressed is to ignore a lot.

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 04-11-2011).]

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