quote Originally posted by aceman: C) And all of this "mis-marking" of threads will continue until: a) Cliff posts that he wants this all cleaned up and that he won't tolerate any more of these mis-markings or b) you stop your little crusade

You mean, spewing political sewage into general would stop if only I stopped trying to stop it? Is it really that easy? People like kevin, Avengador, etc, would suddenly change their stripes? Honestly?

I honestly don't think Cliff gives a shite about the subject, truth be told. Why he spent the time and money (because as a programmer, his time *is* money) to provide an option that is openly and blatantly ignored I don't know. I haven't seen him make one comment here and he's certainly not contacted me off list. In fact, I've gotten PMs from him in the past which make me think he'd be happy if I was gone off this forum.

If you don't like me calling you out on your behavior you could get together and see if you can get Cliff to ban me, nobody else on this forum can. Or, y'all could stop acting like jackasses. You could even attempt a violent assault on me to shut me up. I'll bet some of you guys wioth criminal records have had that thought cross your minds. I hope it never comes to that, but when dealing with bullies you never can tell.

Aceman, I'd made my feelings clear about you long ago and you've done nothing to change that. You believe you act in honor, but to me you betray the honor of your service. I know you don't care about that, about how you represent the American service to the rest of the world, and honestly, I don't care either. I know you're the exception, not the rule, and as such I can't care less for you.

http://www.armyocs.com/down...les/RK_notecards.doc

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-05-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol - exactly so, how you pay for your health care? you pay for a private insurance, or do you get taxpayer paid health care? and - yes - value my opinion

only if you value mine or pay me!
I pay for private health care. My job doesn't provide it. There have been times where I paid less getting health insurance on my own than what was deducted from my check for "group" coverage. How do you make that head scratching smiley appear?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: http://www.armyocs.com/down...les/RK_notecards.doc

A very good read!
Thank you.

------------------
And they said one to another, "Behold, for here comes the dreamer. Come now, let us slay him and we shall see what then will become of his dreams." ~ Genesis 37: 19-20

I can't afford the health care I need and must wait, even though I am insured, to get a procedure done. Not sure how that is any better or worse than the UK? Would it be too political of me to say both systems are broken?

You see, if you have socialized medicine, you can still pay to have a procedure done immediately.. no one says you must die, just that you must pay if you are in a hurry and not yet been approved. Same thing here, if my insurance does not cover it I can still get the procedure done if I want to pay for it. The systems really dont seem that much different except with socialised healthcare I can eventually get it done mostly free if I wait approval, but in our system I can't unless I save up $2500 for my deductible, then I still have to do an 80/20 co-pay.

If we could get smaller deductibles and more affordable coverage, I would support our system more.. but its broken, too. If I had not spent into insurance, I would be saving over 2000 bucks a year on premiums that still dont pay until I have put an additional 2500 of my money into it even after paying premiums. Then its 80/20. I think its a scam.

I agree our system is broken and that the UK system is not perfect, and for me that is the problem with the socialized premise. It promises everything for nothing. No system is perfect, I'd prefer an imperfect system with choice though.
I have had similar issues with my insurance, BCBS, for the most part I'm glad I have it.

So Jazzman, would this be an inappropriate time for me to announce that I am deciding whether to accept a job with Army ROTC mentoring all those future officers?

I think the Army's opinion of me is more valued than someone's opinion that never served.

quote Originally posted by aceman: So Jazzman, would this be an inappropriate time for me to announce that I am deciding whether to accept a job with Army ROTC mentoring all those future officers? I think the Army's opinion of me is more valued than someone's opinion that never served.

My reasons for not serving were health related. Sadly, I didn't get much choice in the genes my parents gave me. If' I'd chosen better parents I'd be in the service right beside you.

Nothing sucks like being rejected for service to your country for reasons completely outside of your control.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: The systems really dont seem that much different except with socialised healthcare I can eventually get it done mostly free if I wait approval...

But it won't be free. There will be deductibles and co-pays and even higher taxes, of course, unless you are on welfare, then yes, everything will be paid by someone else. The middle class will be taxed to pay for it. The rich will pay a penalty to get out of it (the penalty will be much lower than paying for coverage). The poor, as I said, will get free coverage. There will be delays in getting treatments and doctors will limit their practices so as they cater to those with money.

As you mentioned the current system needs help, but Obamacare is not the answer, it is just another government expense put on the backs of the middle class.

Oh, don't believe that the middle class won't get screwed.... they always do, look at what is happening with social security and medicare.... Same thing.

Kevin you start a thread useing the BIG LIE
that english health care is failing and even the leadership is dieing as a result
and the english system is the same as obomba's
get proven wrong
1 obomba health care laws are a gift to the CORPrats not even a little bit socialism
the english system is not anything like our heath care law
and the person you claimed died from no care died POST-OP
but jump back in never admitting the first BIG LIEs
and employ the next BIG LIE [ INSURANCE CORPrats are your FRIENDS ]

yes we know your are a saleshole
who lies to people to sell insurance
and then LOL's at them for not understanding the games your industry runs on them
but donot expect to post untrue propaganda here and not get called on it

Well, THAT wasn't very 'cordial', Ray.
True, obviously.
But not 'cordial.'

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-05-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: so, does this mean you are a moderator?

Why yes, yes it does. Fact is, I am too. Even Jizzman claims to be one. You can be one too.
This is a self moderated forum. Jizzman said so.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Why yes, yes it does. Fact is, I am too. Even Jizzman claims to be one. You can be one too. This is a self moderated forum. Jizzman said so.

C'mon, Clit.
Its so obvious.

You really have a huge 'man crush' on Jazzman, don't you.
"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

Maybe you should man up and ask him for his phone number.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-06-2011).]

Nope, decided to stay. Want me gone from this thread? Kevin can make it happen like he said he would, but didn't. Easy, even a caveman can do it.

I sent kevin a polite suggestion that he correct the way he marked this thread. He replied after a couple of days saying "no problemo." In fact, two replies. Yet, here it is, still, not marked politics. I didn't expect much from my suggestion, and I didn't get much in reply. Color me not surprised that kevin would be any different than the others.

Little parting comment on our so-called health system: I need approximately $55,000 worth of work on my heart to fix some unusual electrical problems with no known cause. Without it my cardiologist says I have about a 1 in 1,000 chance of dropping dead at on any given day. I can't afford it and there's absolutely nothing I can do to get that kind of money, so I'll just do without. It's coming up on 1,000 days since I was diagnosed so I'm living on borrowed time. Hip Hip Hooray for the "best medical system in the world". In any other civilized country in the world I could get treatment, just not here.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: C'mon, Clit. Its so obvious. You really have a huge 'man crush' on Jazzman, don't you. "Not that there's anything wrong with that." Maybe you should man up and ask him for his phone number.

I've met him in person, seemed like a personable fella, but his postings here reveal his true nature. Since finding out about his criminal record I've decided I don't want to "be that guy" who can say he had a friend that killed someone driving drunk.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Last post in this political thread. I sent kevin a polite suggestion that he correct the way he marked this thread. He replied after a couple of days saying "no problemo." In fact, two replies. Yet, here it is, still, not marked politics. I didn't expect much from my suggestion, and I didn't get much in reply. Color me not surprised that kevin would be any different than the others. Little parting comment on our so-called health system: I need approximately $55,000 worth of work on my heart to fix some unusual electrical problems with no known cause. Without it my cardiologist says I have about a 1 in 1,000 chance of dropping dead at on any given day. I can't afford it and there's absolutely nothing I can do to get that kind of money, so I'll just do without. It's coming up on 1,000 days since I was diagnosed so I'm living on borrowed time. Hip Hip Hooray for the "best medical system in the world". In any other civilized country in the world I could get treatment, just not here.

Cheer up.
At least your Fiero brothers are worrying about your unbearable tax burden!
Maybe your neighbors will have a bake sale to help with your meds.
[/morbid humor][/sarcasm]

This thread has taken a turn for the worse.
In before the trash!

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: I agree our system is broken and that the UK system is not perfect, and for me that is the problem with the socialized premise. It promises everything for nothing. No system is perfect, I'd prefer an imperfect system with choice though. I have had similar issues with my insurance, BCBS, for the most part I'm glad I have it.

the insurance based system works on the exact same socialized principals - spreads the wealth. the ONLY actual "fair" way is for everyone to pay their own health care directly. and, is an easily doable with our existing system with something as simple as the existing HSA setups. instead of paying an Ins company $300+ a month - put it in a HSA. put in more if you are concerned. put in less if you are not. all up to you - as it should be. that way no one has to pay for the overweight diabetic allergic people, except them same people. and - the clumsy

Cliff, were you not born under the auspices of the dreadful care of the British National Health Service? Did your parents go private for the delivery of their child? If not, then wouldn't you be in a position to say ' they did a great job' , or were you born in a US Medical unit?
Did any of you people denigrating MY country of birth ever experience our National health system ?
Can anybody grasp the reality that Insurance companies are
Destroying our society? The waste of Doctoring skills the world over is caused by Insurance Companies.
Private medicine means the skills these Doctors and surgeons, who are educated, and CONTINUE to be educated ecourtesy of the Tax payer are seeing less than Ten Per cent of patients that a National Health doctor does. This means that IFC private healthcare were abolished, there would very few waiting lists for treatment for anybody. And the equipment they use could treat many thousands MORE patients as well, which would also reduce treatment waiting times too. And THEN, if the drug addicts and alcoholics were refused treatment on the NHS , guess what? There would be NO waiting lists at ALL.

quote Originally posted by ray b: blah....

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: blah...

Guys!!! You're both back!!!

I feel like we know eachother so well!!! Neptune is my Northern brother from Orlando, and RayB is my Southern brother from Miami!

I feel like I'm in a Democrat sandwich!

Hahah...

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I've met him in person, seemed like a personable fella, but his postings here reveal his true nature. Since finding out about his criminal record I've decided I don't want to "be that guy" who can say he had a friend that killed someone driving drunk.

Wow... this is a new low for you JazzMan. This post is seriously lacking in class, tact, and reeks of vendetta. Either you let this post get the best of you... or you really are a horrible person.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Wow... this is a new low for you JazzMan. For someone who claims to want 'civility and decorum', you are seriously lacking in class, tact, and ethics. You're a horrible person...

Wow, I'm a "...horrible person" "seriously lacking in class, tact, and ethics" because I don't want to be CliffW's friend? Because I don't want to associate with a self-admitted habitual drunk driver who's been nothing but an ass to me on this forum? Whose apparent mission in life is to follow me around referring to me as "Jizzman"?

Srsly?

It seems you have no problem contriving reasons to attack everything I write. Here's some fresh fodder for you to twist:

I had oatmeal for breakfast. Quaker Oats Instant red package, Cinnamon & Spice flavor.

My cat's name is Tabby, she's an attention whore.

The sky is blue, with a few puffy clouds near the horizon.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: the insurance based system works on the exact same socialized principals - spreads the wealth. the ONLY actual "fair" way is for everyone to pay their own health care directly. and, is an easily doable with our existing system with something as simple as the existing HSA setups. instead of paying an Ins company $300+ a month - put it in a HSA. put in more if you are concerned. put in less if you are not. all up to you - as it should be. that way no one has to pay for the overweight diabetic allergic people, except them same people. and - the clumsy

Except for one minor detail, choice. Also I would argue there is a difference in spreading risk and spreading wealth. And then there is the concept of competition and profit motive. You can argue the merits of them, but you can't deny the difference there. I don't get it, do you mean to say you don't want to pay for the overweight allergic people? If you are healthy and want socialized medicine you have to want to pay for the sicklier among us.
I have an HSA btw. It is not mandatory.
I agree that the current system is flawed. I think consumers do not know the costs of their health care and that is causing artificial inflation of prices among other things. Could we try correcting the flaws in the system without tossing it? It has brought us some good.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: The waste of Doctoring skills the world over is caused by Insurance Companies. Private medicine means the skills these Doctors and surgeons, who are educated, and CONTINUE to be educated ecourtesy of the Tax payer are seeing less than Ten Per cent of patients that a National Health doctor does. This means that IFC private healthcare were abolished, there would very few waiting lists for treatment for anybody. And the equipment they use could treat many thousands MORE patients as well, which would also reduce treatment waiting times too. And THEN, if the drug addicts and alcoholics were refused treatment on the NHS , guess what? There would be NO waiting lists at ALL.

Nick, you know I love the UK right?
Could you consider the premise that if not for profit motive, some number of those doctors would not be doctors anymore? And those considering medical school may go into a more lucrative field? Or that without the private purchase the costs of the equipment might escalate? or taking the profit out of the manufacture of equipment could lead businesses to get out of that industry? This could mean waiting lists.
And do you not consider addiction a disease? How about mental health? Where is the line drawn in that regard? Not many will pay to see a psychologist today, but if it were free people might line up to have someone to ***** to about how horrible their childhoods were.

Sure Scott. And greed for more and more money has taken away humanity from human conscience. The 'Honorable and worthy position of Doctoring ' has all but disappeared in the scramble for more and more financial gain. I always thought the prime desire to become a doctor or nurse was on a higher plane than fortune hunting. but lamentably in MY eyes, that is no longer the case, or so it seems.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Nick, you know I love the UK right? Could you consider the premise that if not for profit motive, some number of those doctors would not be doctors anymore? And those considering medical school may go into a more lucrative field? Or that without the private purchase the costs of the equipment might escalate? or taking the profit out of the manufacture of equipment could lead businesses to get out of that industry? This could mean waiting lists. And do you not consider addiction a disease? How about mental health? Where is the line drawn in that regard? Not many will pay to see a psychologist today, but if it were free people might line up to have someone to ***** to about how horrible their childhoods were.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Except for one minor detail, choice. Also I would argue there is a difference in spreading risk and spreading wealth. And then there is the concept of competition and profit motive. You can argue the merits of them, but you can't deny the difference there. I don't get it, do you mean to say you don't want to pay for the overweight allergic people? If you are healthy and want socialized medicine you have to want to pay for the sicklier among us. I have an HSA btw. It is not mandatory. I agree that the current system is flawed. I think consumers do not know the costs of their health care and that is causing artificial inflation of prices among other things. Could we try correcting the flaws in the system without tossing it? It has brought us some good.

no - I do not want to pay for overweight diabetic allergic folk. and, since I carry Health Insurance, like everyone else, I DO pay for them.
Health Insurance is not really much of a choice. that is like saying driving is choice. you know how much of choice that really is.
many people get their health coverage thru their jobs. and them places do not like if you "opt out". it decreases their pool. you get the best rates with the largest pool. and you can get no larger pool than everyone. for me - all or nothing. this inbetween horse crap is just so certain people can get their fingers in the pie.
I preffer the nothing - people pay their own way. then full socialized. and lastly, the current health insurance system.

I agree with you on that front, but I might attribute that to a cultural phenomenon like a general decline in religious observance or ethics in general.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Wow, I'm a "...horrible person" "seriously lacking in class, tact, and ethics" because I don't want to be CliffW's friend? Because I don't want to associate with a self-admitted habitual drunk driver who's been nothing but an ass to me on this forum? Whose apparent mission in life is to follow me around referring to me as "Jizzman"? Srsly? It seems you have no problem contriving reasons to attack everything I write. Here's some fresh fodder for you to twist: I had oatmeal for breakfast. Quaker Oats Instant red package, Cinnamon & Spice flavor. My cat's name is Tabby, she's an attention whore. The sky is blue, with a few puffy clouds near the horizon.

Look, JazzMan... bringing up something like that about someone's past is extremely innapropriate. Regardless of whether or not he has posted about it before is besides the point. It's clear to me that you're doing this because you're angry at him, and you want to hurt him verbally. If you're going to hold yourself to a higher standard, then you need to actually do it. Just because someone is mean to you, does not mean it's appropriate to respond in-kind.

quote Originally posted by ray b: Kevin you start a thread useing the BIG LIE that english health care is failing and even the leadership is dieing as a result and the english system is the same as obomba's get proven wrong 1 obomba health care laws are a gift to the CORPrats not even a little bit socialism the english system is not anything like our heath care law and the person you claimed died from no care died POST-OP but jump back in never admitting the first BIG LIEs and employ the next BIG LIE [ INSURANCE CORPrats are your FRIENDS ] yes we know your are a saleshole who lies to people to sell insurance and then LOL's at them for not understanding the games your industry runs on them but donot expect to post untrue propaganda here and not get called on it

ray b,

It is difficult to respond to a memo with so many misspellings, inordinately feeble syntax and lame sentence structure, but I will nevertheless. Socialism is socialism, either the British style or Obamaare (sic). Anywhere where you are FORCED to pay for a right or a government recompense. So far, Obama and his regime already gave over 1,000 deferments (I think it might be more, since my facts are over 10 days old), to companies who wanted OUT of his socialistic heath care. Why did they want out? Their CPA's and lawyers determined the cost to implement this monstrosity will put them out of business! Obama's solution? Tell these companies, like McDonald's s and other restaurants, they can opt out. Obama still wants socialism, but he is betting that these deferments would only last for a year. He is betting that the economic landscape would change by then, whereby he can alter his agenda to fit the new pieces into place at that time. Never mind this whole thing is unconstitutional, Obama only wants to "spread the wealth around". Liberals thinking is all the same......throw more money at the problem and at the same time demagogue those who disagree, and fool those who do not read and do not read and understand. Is that you ray b?

Cordially,
Kevin

[This message has been edited by kevin (edited 04-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Look, JazzMan... bringing up something like that about someone's past is extremely innapropriate. Regardless of whether or not he has posted about it before is besides the point.

Ummm...didn't you do the exact same thing to Jazzman??

quote Originally posted by newf: Ummm...didn't you do the exact same thing to Jazzman??

No, totally different intentions... but you know that already.

Newf I Think 82t/a was genuinely reaching out to Jazzman back then. Just as I felt I was when I PMed him. I don't think its the same as calling someone out for mistakes they've made in the past.

Maybe, I'm just getting tired of everyone piling on the guy I guess. It's an internet forum and he has the right to complain about stuff just as much as anyone else does IMO. I personally agree with the fact that people should mark their threads correctly even though I don't care too much if they do or don't but it is a rule of the forum and since you guys seem to "know" that Jazz has a medical issue that may be causing some of his annoyance at people not marking their threads correctly, I would think you might cut him some slack.

Now when it comes to threads getting off track and into the political realm, I disagree with Jazz on that point as unfortunately I don't think it's easily controllable and again it's an internet forum which is kind of a free for all. It's too bad that there are many that only see things through the filter of left/right politics but that's life IMO. I think many are right when they say if you don't like where a discussion is going to ignore it or press the back button, just as many can when Jazz comments on their politicizing of things. If it's expected for him to do it why not hold yourselves to the same standard?

82 as for your intentions, you may be correct but I think it might be inappropriate in both cases, or hell maybe I'm wrong and it's valid in both, I honestly don't know but I think they are both on the same plane good intentions or not.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 04-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Look, JazzMan... bringing up something like that about someone's past is extremely innapropriate. Regardless of whether or not he has posted about it before is besides the point. It's clear to me that you're doing this because you're angry at him, and you want to hurt him verbally. If you're going to hold yourself to a higher standard, then you need to actually do it. Just because someone is mean to you, does not mean it's appropriate to respond in-kind.

His past? His past?!? Friend, do you even read here in OT? CliffW's posts about his intoxication arrests have been ongoing and public, posted right here in OT no less, repeatedly. Heck, he's in the middle of public intoxication case right now: //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...6/HTML/075841-3.html According to his own words,

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Ok, ok. I get intermittent web access when I am at work. I also did not have my notes, from the arrest/case. Nothing has happened. Well, not exactly nothing. I want my jury trial. Please forgive me if I repeat already disclosed information. As with any ongoing legal case, it is not prudent to disclose details. I have made every set court date, or have asked for and have been granted a reset if my work schedule conflicted. The first court date, the City Prosecutor, in private session of the pre trial hearing, asked me how I wished to handle it. I told her that I could not plead guilty to the erroneous accusations. She read through the ?affidavits? and said she could not dismiss them. So, I asked for a copy of them, of which she obliged, and we reset the pre trial hearing. Giving me a chance to see the specific allegations. As I read through them, all I could think of was "lies", and/or suppositions. So, at our next conference, I informed her that I would plead not guilty, and would want a jury trial. I asked her if her/the municipal court was a court of record, meaning if it had a stenographer. It did not. So I pre appealed to a court or record, County Court. They have set two dates. Both which conflicted with my work schedule and was excused from with notice as such. I am waiting for a new court date. That is the quick reply to the curiosity of the forum. I can add some filler when I find my notes but am gonna use the rest of a really nice day doing outside stuff.

Since his quit his most recent job, hopefully he'll finally get his day in court and receive the justice he is due.

I'm not trying to hurt CliffW; He's shown that he can hurt himself quite well on his own. It would be nice if he stopped following me around posting random bits and partial quotes while rambling on about who knows what, though. But, it's his choice how he behaves, not mine. I have no more control over his than I do yours or anyone else's actions, here or anywhere except perhaps on my physical property.

I don't know anything of Jazz' medical condition other than him denying it had anything to do with his behavior when T/A mentioned it. I'm kind of new here so I don't have all the history I guess.
I know some guys are piling on him, I can see that. But he engaged in the same us/them behavior by grouping me with others. I really was trying to point out his hypocrisy to him, tried to get him to discuss it in a civilized manner in a thread rather than nagging. It's starting to look like lines are being drawn and it's only going to get worse.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: I don't know anything of Jazz' medical condition other than him denying it had anything to do with his behavior when T/A mentioned it. I'm kind of new here so I don't have all the history I guess. I know some guys are piling on him, I can see that. But he engaged in the same us/them behavior by grouping me with others. I really was trying to point out his hypocrisy to him, tried to get him to discuss it in a civilized manner in a thread rather than nagging. It's starting to look like lines are being drawn and it's only going to get worse.

lol - yes - the lines were drawn a long time ago....and, actually, it has gotten better, not worse

there is much entrenchment - but - most are starting to come up and see the real world is still here

this thread is just a reminder of the the uglier times

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Since his quit his most recent job, hopefully he'll finally get his day in court and receive the justice he is due. I'm not trying to hurt CliffW; He's shown that he can hurt himself quite well on his own. It would be nice if he stopped following me around posting random bits and partial quotes while rambling on about who knows what, though. But, it's his choice how he behaves, not mine. I have no more control over his than I do yours or anyone else's actions, here or anywhere except perhaps on my physical property.

Not to jump around, but let me be Frank for a minute (rather than Todd). Let me just suggest that we end this Crusade. The level of stress on here, I'm sure, has increased for you, as it has for me to some extent as well. I come on here to have fun, get different perspectives on the daily events, and have fun while work is slow.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Not to jump around, but let me be Frank for a minute (rather than Todd). Let me just suggest that we end this Crusade. The level of stress on here, I'm sure, has increased for you, as it has for me to some extent as well. I come on here to have fun, get different perspectives on the daily events, and have fun while work is slow.

How dare you be rational!!

Thanks for that BTW.... sometimes I actually think you are stand up guy but then I realize lent isn't over yet. just kidding.

I'm out of this damn thread.. it was supposed to be a discussion about the merits and flaws of socialised health care versus private health care, a discussion that WAS getting honest and candid answers from a few here and not just the normal RepubliCon/DemoCrap argument .. instead it turns into Jazz complaining about it not being marked political and then pizzing all over CliffW because of his past he cant change. What does that have to do with health care, and how is that any more or less appropriate than not marking the thread political? Is bad behavior okay in light of other perceived bad behavior, or is it as my Mom always said that "Two wrongs won't make it right"?

Can people start marking the topics correctly so we don't have to go through this BS every time and actually discuss something without the added crap? Geesh.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 04-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by newf: Thanks for that BTW.... sometimes I actually think you are stand up guy but then I realize lent isn't over yet. just kidding.

I've failed miserably... God's going to kill me. Hopefully he'll wait until I'm in my 90s though...

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I'm out of this damn thread.. it was supposed to be a discussion about the merits and flaws of socialised health care versus private health care, a discussion that WAS getting honest and candid answers from a few here and not just the normal RepubliCon/DemoCrap argument .. instead it turns into Jazz complaining about it not being marked political and then pizzing all over CliffW because of his past he cant change. What does that have to do with health care, and how is that any more or less appropriate than not marking the thread political? Is bad behavior okay in light of other perceived bad behavior, or is it as my Mom always said that "Two wrongs won't make it right"? Can people start marking the topics correctly so we don't have to go through this BS every time and actually discuss something without the added crap? Geesh.

I was debating on whether or not to post this, but I'm warming up to some idea of health care coverage like this. However... I think that might be part of the ploy... is that over time, we'd learn to accept it. So I have my reservations still.

Aside from any conspiracy talk, and whatever... there are two primary issues that most people have about universal health care.

1 - The slippery slope argument associated with socialism.
2 - The cost.


I'll focus on #2. Aside from any hesitation related to issue #1, I think most people belive that health care for all would be a great thing so long as the cost involved wasn't substantial.

As far as I'm concerned... and aside from free capitalism, there are two main tenets to a successful society in a country: Health, and Education.

So if we could eliminate all other subsidies, welfare, or any other "benefits" type of expenditures, I'm sure we could have excellent education, and health care... and be able to pay for it.