Excuse my french in the title, but I'm pretty damn pissed off . I used to be a registered member on the MR2 forum, www.mr2oc.com because I have (soon to be past tense) a '91 MR2 Turbo. I posted my dyno chart there, asking for help understanding what modifications the car has to get it to the 261 rwhp and 248 rwtq its putting down. I got about 2-3 good replies at first, saying it probably has an upgraded turbo and possibly a mild cam. Then nothing but flaming and lectures from people saying the shop I got it tuned at is shady, my A/F gauge isn't accurate, and that the tune will eventually crack ringlands on the pistons. Even when I rebuked them in a professional manner they completely ignored my points and instead just kept saying the same old . Now they've banned me, for no reason at all, other than me pointing out that the guy lecturing me wasn't reading my posts and wasn't saying anything useful. I didn't even swear or make any personal attacks. They even attacked my Fiero, which I was in the process of defending . Not to mention the fact that it took 4 days for them to approve my profile so I could even READ threads on their forum. They all come off as condescending know-it-all kids, who's usual answer to everything is to spend more money on "better" parts or go to a more expensive shop. I had to go in and correct a few of their members in their tech section just because they were giving wrong info and it wasn't helping the OP at all. Thing is, the OP (original poster) would ignore my advice and try everyone else's first, then finally try mine and find out that it worked. Even then I got no respect, and in every thread they questioned my skills and knowledge of cars. Its been so bad that in the past that I've almost came here instead for advice on working on/troubleshooting my MR2. I gotta say Pennocks and the Fiero community are MUCH better in almost every way than mr2oc (mr2oc is like the PFF of MR2's), for one thing technical advice given here is usually right. Anyways, I'm glad I've stayed more of a Fiero guy than a MR2 guy even though I've owned both for a while. Right now I've got solid plans for selling the MR2 at noon tomorrow, I've been a bit sad about letting it go but I'll be glad to have $5k more in the bank and less headaches . I was thinking that I might buy another MR2 some day, a 93+ with the better (ct20) turbo, different suspension and limited slip differential. Based on my experiences with the MR2 community though, I think I might just get a 3800SC swapped in my '88GT first, lol. Apparently, with 20% drivetrain loss my MR2 has 326 crank hp and 310 crank tq, on 14 psi of boost. So that'll be my goal with my '88GT .

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Gee, if you wanted that kind of abuse, you should have just posted a thread saying you're going to put a V8 in your Fiero.

By the way, here's the dyno sheet for the MR2, from when I got it dynotuned:



Yeah it was a little bit lean. The boost fuel regulator wasn't hooked up for some reason though, and since plugging it back in its made it run much richer, especially with more throttle and boost. And the shop tuning it didn't think it was too lean.

Welcome to the idiots of a tuner forum. This is what happens when a bunch of know it all's get fast cars.

I'm real excited about my '88 GT right now. Pretty soon I'll get Dodgerunner's idle tensioner pulley and finally get rid of the belt squeal that's plagued it for the past couple years. I'll finally be able to enjoy hearing its exhaust again (the car has long tube headers, y-pipe, cat delete and an ocelot muffler). I've changed the belt, alternator, and I've tried tightening the belt several times and it ALWAYS squeals. Its so awesome knowing it'll be fixed soon .

Welcome back to the dark side =). I don't even own a Fiero and I prefer this place to most!

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1990 Sunbird SE /// 1995 Beretta Base

Eh. I still like the MR.
OTOH, I have yet to find a better forum than this place. Anywhere.

That's pretty common at a lot of forums. In this case, there really are no moderators, only Cliff...

Aside from the people who create the message boards in the first place, and manage the site, most of the people who would seek to become moderators, are the kind of people who are usually pretty immature.

The MR2 is a cool car, but it's also unique in the import crowd among a sea of ricer economy cars. Most kids who have a Civic would rather have an MR2, or a Supra, or whatever... so you get a lot of these guys on the MR2 list.

You don't really get that on the Fiero list because it's not part of the "import" crowd.

I'd expect you'd probably see similar attitudes on the RX-7 boards (I used to have one), and other boards like that. For all the great knowledge that might be there, the vast majority of them are just young immature kids. We were all there once, but you wonder sometimes how we made it to adult-hood...

What did you expect from an MR2 forum?

Yeah, there's a level of civility missing nowadays that used to exist. When people have a captive audience it seems to cause them to want to go off the deep end and start posting personal attacks against anyone they don't like, or won't agree with them, or had a different opinion than them, and on and on. Being civil takes actual work, it doesn't just happen by itself. Typified by innuendo, sarcasm, personally-directed character attacks and insults, etc, this kind of behavior only serves to drive down the quality of discourse, as you found out.

The value of the community is probably higher than that of the car itself, as any car can be driven around but friends and relationships are to be treasured.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Yeah, there's a level of civility missing nowadays that used to exist. When people have a captive audience it seems to cause them to want to go off the deep end and start posting personal attacks against anyone they don't like, or won't agree with them, or had a different opinion than them, and on and on. Being civil takes actual work, it doesn't just happen by itself. Typified by innuendo, sarcasm, personally-directed character attacks and insults, etc, this kind of behavior only serves to drive down the quality of discourse, as you found out. The value of the community is probably higher than that of the car itself, as any car can be driven around but friends and relationships are to be treasured.

Why do I feel as though I'm being preached to with this comment?

I think it's just a simple point that most of the people who are attracted to MR2s of that generation are younger kids on the forum, who are less mature. Cars like the Fiero don't usually get younger people. For every 16 year old on here, there's probably ten 40 year olds. It was the same kind of attitude I would see on the Grand Am forum, although I only went on there to get advice on fixing my car, never to modify it, so I was never party to those discussions, merely an observer.

I don't think there's a wave of incivility that's hitting the United States by force or anything so nefarious.

I will say however, that manners, the family unit, and respect have somewhat declined since the 50s... unless all the TV shows and film that I've seen portray the 50s as something that it never really was.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Yeah, there's a level of civility missing nowadays that used to exist. When people have a captive audience it seems to cause them to want to go off the deep end and start posting personal attacks against anyone they don't like, or won't agree with them, or had a different opinion than them, and on and on. Being civil takes actual work, it doesn't just happen by itself. Typified by innuendo, sarcasm, personally-directed character attacks and insults, etc, this kind of behavior only serves to drive down the quality of discourse, as you found out. The value of the community is probably higher than that of the car itself, as any car can be driven around but friends and relationships are to be treasured.

Just so you know, I didn't even read who posted this until I got to the quoted page. So this has nothing to do with who you are, but rather your tone you're using.

This doesn't read how you want it to come across. This reads as "This forum is exactly the same way". When, based on the description of the forum above, it is definitely not. Feel free to alter your posts to be how you believe forum posts should be. But don't insult our members by claiming a lack of civility, when in general there is a multitude of generosity and even civility on this forum.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Eh. I still like the MR. OTOH, I have yet to find a better forum than this place. Anywhere.

26209 posts prove you must be correct.

quote Originally posted by Tinton: I'm real excited about my '88 GT right now. Pretty soon I'll get Dodgerunner's idle tensioner pulley and finally get rid of the belt squeal that's plagued it for the past couple years. I'll finally be able to enjoy hearing its exhaust again (the car has long tube headers, y-pipe, cat delete and an ocelot muffler). I've changed the belt, alternator, and I've tried tightening the belt several times and it ALWAYS squeals. Its so awesome knowing it'll be fixed soon .

For what its worth all of mine would squeak until i built a little tightener tool. ( think small turnbuckle with end plates on it ) No more squeak.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Yeah, there's a level of civility missing nowadays that used to exist.

I don't know that there's much difference, unless you're talking about decades or generations ago. Even here when I joined 10 years ago, there were still uncivil threads, know-it-alls, etc. The rating system here has been around for a while because the problem has existed for a while. The bizarro forum is in it's 7th year I think, and while being uncivil is a way of life there, they certainly didn't invent it.

Nostalgia tends to make us all thing times gone by were better than today, and maybe in some cases they were, but this type of behavior on the internet is certainly nothing new. Things here are much better than times past due to the amount of house cleaning that went on back then.

Well, the MR2's sold. I feel kinda bad, it was an awesome car (drove like a dream) but I'm sure its in good hands. I've been trying to convince myself that I didn't fall in love with that particular one but MR2's in general. I really think I'll buy another 1 day, a 93+, but only after I build up my '88GT. Right now it sucks not having boost and not being able to embarass just about any other car on the street. Its nice not having to pay for 93 octane though . Honestly, I'd say my '88GT handles and brakes better than the MR2 but the MR2's powerband/power are in a whole different league. My '88GT is kinda quick but it doesn't have that pure insanity from 3000-7000RPM that the MR2 had. Oh well , it at least feels more planted and like it has a lower center of gravity, it also stops on a dime compared to the MR2 (12" brakes on both cars).

I usually don't even bother with other forums of darn near any sort. If I have a technical question that is not for a Fiero, I just ask it here in O/T. I love PFF, wouldn't have it any other way.

I'd recommend one site that could be of use for other makes, GrassrootsMotorsports. I'm a member there, and if it was made, at least ONE person there owns one! A lot of Miata owners there too.

[This message has been edited by AquaHusky (edited 03-31-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Tinton: Well, the MR2's sold. I feel kinda bad, it was an awesome car (drove like a dream) but I'm sure its in good hands. I've been trying to convince myself that I didn't fall in love with that particular one but MR2's in general. I really think I'll buy another 1 day, a 93+, but only after I build up my '88GT. Right now it sucks not having boost and not being able to embarass just about any other car on the street. Its nice not having to pay for 93 octane though . Honestly, I'd say my '88GT handles and brakes better than the MR2 but the MR2's powerband/power are in a whole different league. My '88GT is kinda quick but it doesn't have that pure insanity from 3000-7000RPM that the MR2 had. Oh well , it at least feels more planted and like it has a lower center of gravity, it also stops on a dime compared to the MR2 (12" brakes on both cars).

I'm just curious, with a lot of the modifications you did, did you ever feel like the car was no longer comfortable as a street car? I always wonder about that. There's something to be said for a car that's quick / fast, but that also behaves apropriately on the street. I also have a Crown Victoria which I like... and there's a lot of guys who modify those like crazy. The way I see the car is that it's a big luxury barge... at least old-American style (mine is not an old cop car). Many people put really loud exhausts on them, reprogram the transmission's BCM so that the shift points are really tight at all levels, put crazy gears in it... etc... so while driving it around, it's basically somewhat uncivilized...

My 2002 Crown Victoria LX breaks into the 14s on a good day. But when just cruising around town, it's whisper quiet, the shifts are smooth and gentle, and the power is quick, but not too aggressive.

When I STOMP on it, that's a different story. The transmission can be programmed to shift with higher line pressure depending on how much throttle it sees. The exhaust opens up a little, and it's loud. But under normal circumstances, it's really quiet.

Just wondering if you found your car to be kind of overwhelming sometimes with the modifications?

If you don't love shift kits, and tire-chirping upshifts, then you're either not a true enthusiast, or you're too old to stay in the game. ( Unless you had an extreme back / neck injury like my dad, that's why he can no longer enjoy a crisp shift. )
Deep gears improve acceleration. Those effing Fords have an ultra-lame 2.40:1 first gear in the AOD, so you need a 4.30:1 rear gear, especially with the ultra-tiny 4.6L. More-so with the luxo-barge being at least a thousand pounds too heavy.
As supporting evidence, I submit that a 3500 pound Camaro with 26" tires and a 5500-rpm 350 is noticeably stronger, and noticeably more fun, with 11.4:1 gearing ( in first ) than with anything less.

quote I had to go in and correct a few of their members in their tech section just because they were giving wrong info and it wasn't helping the OP at all. Thing is, the OP (original poster) would ignore my advice and try everyone else's first, then finally try mine and find out that it worked. Even then I got no respect, and in every thread they questioned my skills and knowledge of cars.

I've had these experiences. You just can't help these little punks. They can't help you.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: If you don't love shift kits, and tire-chirping upshifts, then you're either not a true enthusiast, or you're too old to stay in the game. ( Unless you had an extreme back / neck injury like my dad, that's why he can no longer enjoy a crisp shift. ) Deep gears improve acceleration. Those effing Fords have an ultra-lame 2.40:1 first gear in the AOD, so you need a 4.30:1 rear gear, especially with the ultra-tiny 4.6L. More-so with the luxo-barge being at least a thousand pounds too heavy. As supporting evidence, I submit that a 3500 pound Camaro with 26" tires and a 5500-rpm 350 is noticeably stronger, and noticeably more fun, with 11.4:1 gearing ( in first ) than with anything less.

I would argue that I'm not a true enthusiast, but I think simply increasing speed / engine power at the risk of destroying the car's character can be subjective.

My Crown Victoria has miles of leather in it. It's not exactly a Mercedes, or a Lexus, or whatever... but it's the closest thing you'll ever come with today's technology to old-style American luxury... which is a huge vehicle, with massive bench seats and a column shifter.

I inherited it from my grandfather with only 10k miles on it. It's got 50k miles on it now (unfortunatly), but I do enjoy driving it, and most of those miles are highway.

Mine has 2.73:1 rear gears, but with those gears, I'm able to get into the 14s, AND still get 28 miles to the gallon on the highway with it in cruise at 70 miles an hour.

I also don't have an AOD transmission, those are the VERY old transmissions that were used in the older ones. The 4R70W transmission has been the transmission used in the car since 1996. They stopped using the AOD in mid 1995.

The car is actually not THAT heavy either compared to other cars... it weighs about 3,900 pounds, which is only 400-450 pounds heavier than the Camaro... but I can seat 6 people.

I'm also 32, so I'm not that old...


But like I said, the LX Crown Victoria with all the options is not a car that was built to be loud. It was meant to cruise, slung fairly low to the ground, and drive around in near whisper-quiet luxury.

I was building an 81 TransAm, and I had intended to make it full-on insane... but my daughter was born, so I got rid of it.