quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: then our floundering downtown area will die and become a urine soaked haven for bums.

We can rename it Detroit

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Ah, yes, the old bromide about how the U.S. uses 25% of the world's energy. What is conveniently left out of this is the fact that the U.S. also produces 20% of the world's economic output.

Heh, had to go look up what "old bromide" meant since despite my vocabulary I'd never heard of that one before. It means, essentially, "overly used, trite expression", and is commonly used in a derisive manor. Learned something new today, making it a good day after all.

And that leaves the other 80% of the world producing 75% of the world's economic output...

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I'll try to tolerate stupidity, and I'll try to forgive ignorance. But your comment quoted above is so stupid, arrogant and supercilious, I can't let it go. I think we Europeans deserve an apology for your overstepping the mark. Elitism and, frankly, pure ignorance of things 'European' go to show you are talking out your BUTT. Have you ever been to Europe? I have NEVER been to the USA , and therefore would NEVER use such ill-informed and basically ignorant statements about something I know absolutely NOTHING, and basing my opinions upon the drivel and trash the Media puts out to the eagerly- awaiting brain-dead masses. And if you consider talking about MY homeland in such terms as ' being civil'...try saying it to a European face to face. You MIGHT just regret it. Nick

I could be wrong, but I took it as sarcasm. As in, we actually do look to Europe for those things. I don't think he was trying to be offensive to Europeans, more making a point that Europe does effect America. I'm not certain though.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Heh, had to go look up what "old bromide" meant since despite my vocabulary I'd never heard of that one before. It means, essentially, "overly used, trite expression", and is commonly used in a derisive manor. Learned something new today, making it a good day after all.

The phrase "old bromide" is, itself, an old bromide!

quote And that leaves the other 80% of the world producing 75% of the world's economic output...

What's your point here? It seems to back up my contention that the U.S. is using energy commensurate with it's production, as it is in the rest of the world.

One of the best things about traveling is to see how different people solve different problems. As a person from the states who is currently in Europe I am seeing it every hour. As I see it there are many logical answers to why we do things differently.

Why does Europe have more rail?
Why does the states have more planes
Why are European cars smaller?
Why are American cars bigger?
Why do all four wheels on German shopping carts pivot?
Why do American carts have two fixed pivot wheels?
Why are European cities denser?
Why is gas more expensive?
Why are eastern Europeans more secretive about the things they own?
Why do Germans heat a pot of water with electrically heated pot?
Why are any new German outlets recessed into the wall.
Why are most of the interior walls in Germany masonry.

There are also questions that still leave me wondering
Why are German door knobs levers always and the majority of household door knobs in the US are round?

Anyways the way I see it, we both have things to learn from each other. Clearly we both have ideas that are different and maybe better for the other, but ALSO maybe not. To blindly apply one's solutions to the other's problems is wrong. But I really think we both have a lot we can learn from each other.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Ah, yes, the old bromide about how the U.S. uses 25% of the world's energy. What is conveniently left out of this is the fact that the U.S. also produces 20% of the world's economic output. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/W..._energy_does_usa_use The United States uses about 25% of the world's oil energy. It's hard to calculate exactly, but when all other forms (solar, nuclear, coal, wind, natural gas, etc.) are factored in, the overall percentage used by us is a bit less; maybe 22-23%. This only makes sense when one considers that the U.S. (5% of the world's population) produces 20% of the world's economic output, China is second at about 13%. (as of 2007). Additionally, depending on exactly the numbers used; the U.S. is responsible for 20-30% of the world's GDP (Gross Domestic Pro-duct). In addition to product manufacturing, a large portion of our energy use is devoted to food production; before recent increases in Russian grain production that allowed them to be a net exporter, we practically fed the world. With our usage of lighting, computers, large screen t.v.'s, central a.c , etc. just for residential comfort, it's no wonder why the average person living in the U.S. consumes more energy than others. Next time you hear an environmentalist deride the U.S. for her energy use, ask them about what that energy produces. They will have no idea.

Have any sources for those claims besides wiki-answers? Whoever wrote it seems to contrdict themself.

quote Originally posted by newf: Have any sources for those claims besides wiki-answers? Whoever wrote it seems to contrdict themself.

More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...of_the_United_States

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd...php?Article_ID=18745

quote Originally posted by fierobear: More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...of_the_United_States http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd...php?Article_ID=18745

Thanks, they seem better.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Still believe in Utopia, heh James ? The common good created by socialism or the common good created by the belief in the Bible ? In fact James, one's short term future is the first thing that matters to all people. Second only to one's long term future. Even the animal world has laws. The laws of nature. Which exist for us as well. History must also show examples of people who don't act as though their own short-term future is the only thing that matters. Perhaps you could give an example. Other than Jesus, I can't think of one.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol - silly person History is full of examples, as is current times just because you choose to ignore them is not anyone else's problem but, feel free to continue to hound Jazzman in any thread he posts in really shows the quality of who you are - or - more accurately - the lack of quality of who you are

Heh heh. Au contraire.
Hello Pot. I am Kettle. Mr Kettle to you.
Are you the only one allowed to be a contrarian ? Did you see anything in my post that was not logical ? Was I uncivil in my discourse ? I have permission to hound Jazzman ? You mean like I didn't do in that thread, ..., well hell, let me do it right now.
EU to ban all cars from European cities by 2050 Funny that. This very thread I am posting on now, . I make one reply to his discourse and I am hounding him, ?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Isn't there already a gobal warming bashing thread? Why start a second one?

You spelled global wrong, . This is a gobal bashing thread.
No James, there is not already a global warming bashing thread. There are many. Why do you care that we start another one about a different aspect of it ?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Also, anyone with any common sense knows that proposals and ideas for something 40 years down the road are more speculation, since so much can and will change between now and then.

Goals are being set James. Goals. Yes, things will change but the goal will remain the same, .

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Who's concerned with something in another country that might or might not happen four decades from now but completely overlooked something that will probably happen four years from now in this country?

Why are you concerned with what concerns us James ? Did they not get socialistic health care before we got ObamaCare ?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: That would be the opinion of someone who doesn't live there, doesn't have a stake in any aspect of the present or future there, likely will never travel there and probably has never been there. It's their country, let them speculate and make guesses about their future without demonizing/hating them. Plenty of things closer to home to get all puffed up over.

So, he is not entitled to an opinion ? C'mon James, .
Pot, I am not done yet. See, since you think that I am hounding Jazzman and that he has not invited it, let me point out a few facts to you.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: This forum doesn't have a moderator, it's self-moderated ...

Do you have a problem with me moderating Jazzman ? He doesn't have a problem with moderating us, .
He is on record as saying he is gonna hound us when he does not get his way. Threat worthy because he thinks it annoys us. ('Cept piss ants amuse me.) You are a prime example of someone elevating themselves on the radar screen contrairion Pot.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I'll try to tolerate stupidity, and I'll try to forgive ignorance. But your comment quoted above is so stupid, arrogant and supercilious, I can't let it go. I think we Europeans deserve an apology for your overstepping the mark. Elitism and, frankly, pure ignorance of things 'European' go to show you are talking out your BUTT. Have you ever been to Europe? I have NEVER been to the USA , and therefore would NEVER use such ill-informed and basically ignorant statements about something I know absolutely NOTHING, and basing my opinions upon the drivel and trash the Media puts out to the eagerly- awaiting brain-dead masses. And if you consider talking about MY homeland in such terms as ' being civil'...try saying it to a European face to face. You MIGHT just regret it. Nick

Wow, just wow. I don't think you understood what I was saying at all and I really don't understand where the vitriol comes from. I was not knocking Europe at all. In fact I am a bit of an anglophile. One of my favorite news sources is the BBC I also love the Economist. But you've obviously decided to paint me as the cartoonish Ugly American (with a southern accent no doubt) the likes of which would have appeared in Fawlty Towers.
I was only responding to Jazzman's assertions that people who disagree with him shouldn't comment on the affairs of Europe because they don't live there or have no stake. People do look to Europe and other parts of the world to borrow ideas here in the US sometimes good, sometimes bad. Healthcare is a great example. Both sides use the healthcare systems in Europe, Canada and Japan to make points either for or against in the current healthcare debate in the US.
I'm going to chalk your comment up to you having a bad day.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: I was only responding to Jazzman's assertions that people who disagree with him shouldn't comment on the affairs of Europe because they don't live there or have no stake.

Lie. I made no such assertion...

quote That would be the opinion of someone who doesn't live there, doesn't have a stake in any aspect of the present or future there, likely will never travel there and probably has never been there. It's their country, let them speculate and make guesses about their future without demonizing/hating them. Plenty of things closer to home to get all puffed up over.

Ok so you didn't assert it, only implied it?

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Ok so you didn't assert it, only implied it?

I didn't assert or imply anything, Scott, you need to get your facts straight.

You said, "...I was only responding to Jazzman's assertions that people who disagree with him shouldn't comment on the affairs of Europe because they don't live there or have no stake."

The part that is incorrect is bolded. The specific meanings of the words you use cause your sentence to mean that I said that people I disagree with shouldn't comment. That's a lie. I've never made any such assertion.

I'm going to ask you to stop posting lies and distortions of my words. Please.

Well in my opinion that is exactly what you did as you directed that comment to someone you disagreed with in order to belittle his opinion.
Stop calling me a liar.

I'll stop calling you a liar when you stop lying about me. Ball's in your court.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: That would be the opinion of someone who doesn't live there, doesn't have a stake in any aspect of the present or future there, likely will never travel there and probably has never been there. It's their country, let them speculate and make guesses about their future without demonizing/hating them. Plenty of things closer to home to get all puffed up over.

I will apologize for lying if you can explain how this is not an attack on 2.5's opinion. And pretty much calling him small-minded and unworldly while you were at it.

I have just been back to my post Scott and totally apologised for my misinterpretation of your comment. I regret sincerely saying what I did in this case, because the error was MINE.
Truly VERY sorry, and I retract my 'vitriol' unequivocally.
If you want to get to see Europe, and can manage the airfare...you will be welcome in our house, and I can show you some of Spain...or at least, where we live. At no cost to you
Nick

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Wow, just wow. I don't think you understood what I was saying at all and I really don't understand where the vitriol comes from. I was not knocking Europe at all. In fact I am a bit of an anglophile. One of my favorite news sources is the BBC I also love the Economist. But you've obviously decided to paint me as the cartoonish Ugly American (with a southern accent no doubt) the likes of which would have appeared in Fawlty Towers. I was only responding to Jazzman's assertions that people who disagree with him shouldn't comment on the affairs of Europe because they don't live there or have no stake. People do look to Europe and other parts of the world to borrow ideas here in the US sometimes good, sometimes bad. Healthcare is a great example. Both sides use the healthcare systems in Europe, Canada and Japan to make points either for or against in the current healthcare debate in the US. I'm going to chalk your comment up to you having a bad day.

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 04-05-2011).]

Well Spain just jumped further up the list. Gaudi and the Bilbao and my new Fiero friend!

[This message has been edited by Scottzilla79 (edited 04-05-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I'll stop calling you a liar when you stop lying about me. Ball's in your court.

I play ball. The ball is in your court.

Cliff, I'm still waiting for him to explain his comments. He never will because he is incapable of admitting any error or wrongdoing.

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Cliff, I'm still waiting for him to explain his comments. He never will because he is incapable of admitting any error or wrongdoing.

I've come to realize I've invested too much time in dealing with you. If it were a real-life bullying situation I'd be forced to continue defending myself or fight back like the fat kid did to that little prik that kept jabbing him. But it's not, so away I walk. You may be a fine fellow in real life but here you're a, well, no name calling. Suffice to say, it's apparent to anyone who cares to know.

Have a nice life, Scotzilla79...

Same to you Jazzman, though I don't think you need my well wishes. Life is grand when you can remain oblivious to your own shortcomings and ignore those who point them out to you.
I am a very nice person here and "in real life". I've always thought what makes a person "good" is not having absolute confidence in themselves as a good person. When you are so sure that you are good, or right, is when you end up being a jerk.
I got a hunch you were bullied as a child. It's a classic story. Kid is bullied for being different, when he grows up he is smarter and more successful than the lunkheads who mistreated him in his youth. Some in that situation will payback anyone they see as that "type" with cruelty of their own. They use words and their knowledge to humiliate others, but never give up their victim status thus rationalizing their cruelty as "self-defense".
But in the end you are just perpetuating the vicious cycle of abuse.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: The European Commission on Monday unveiled a "single European transport area" aimed at enforcing "a profound shift in transport patterns for passengers" by 2050.

I'll be dead by 2050 or unable to drive anyway.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 04-06-2011).]