I will be installing a 2600 watt solar system on my house in the coming 90 days. I just wanted to share my cost/benefit breakdown for those of you who still doubt solar energy.

13 Canadian Solar 200 watt panels - $3900
1 2500w SMA 2500 grid-tie inverter - $500
Misc install parts - $2000
Installation and permits/certifications - $2000

Total:$8400.

Power company rebate: $2/watt = -$5200.

Total out of pocket expense: $3200

30% 2011 Federal Tax Credit: -$2520

Actual system cost: $680.

Power production: 3700kwh per year, at 15c/kwh cost savings of $557/year. My power bill will be about cut in half. The system will pay for itself in 1.5 years (vs the 15 it would with no incentives). After that it’s like free money! I’m considering adding additional ground-mount panels and selling the excess power to the grid. Unfortunately I ran out of space on my south-facing roof.

go for it.
Here the gov. are scrapping the solar rebate cause that can no longer afford it

I thought (and am still thinking) about going full solar. My main limitations are shade (I have lots of it) and cost (I can use my meager retirement savings). The biggest boon for me would be telling Oncor to kiss my ... because they came through last year and wrecked my trees with they butcher hack trim job. They also damaged a vehicle and left garbage and litter all over my yard. Where'd you get your panels at a buck fifty/Watt? Cheapest I've found them so far is 1.99.

Congratulations on taking the plunge! You couldn't even get a decent Fiero parts car for that price.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I thought (and am still thinking) about going full solar. My main limitations are shade (I have lots of it) and cost (I can use my meager retirement savings). The biggest boon for me would be telling Oncor to kiss my ... because they came through last year and wrecked my trees with they butcher hack trim job. They also damaged a vehicle and left garbage and litter all over my yard. Where'd you get your panels at a buck fifty/Watt? Cheapest I've found them so far is 1.99. Congratulations on taking the plunge! You couldn't even get a decent Fiero parts car for that price.

They have thin film panels with lower efficiencies (larger panels, less wattage) for $1/watt:

http://sunelec.com/

What is the life expectancy for these panels?

In 20 years, they'll be running at about 80% of the power when you bought them new. The industry defines that as "one lifetime"... with proper care, 40 years is not out of the question. Granted, they may only be putting out 60% power at that point...

What kind of upkeep do these require? What kind of conditions are you calculating your estimates based on? 12 hours of perfect sunlight 7 days a week? half that? I'm just curious. Also, with the government picking up half the tab, this becomes much more attractive.

edit to add... 80% at 20 years ain't too shabby..

[This message has been edited by TommyRocker (edited 03-17-2011).]

Power estimates are based on location. For my location, the average power delivery is 5 hours of sunlight per day (obviously it's more in the summer and less in the winter, that's why they give you the average). So in a typical day I'm generating 5hr x 2.6kw = 13kwh. Average use for me is 24 kwh/day.

Also I wanted to add that 80% over 20 years is worst case. Many panels still in service put out 80% over 40 years....

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 03-17-2011).]

Not to mention that in 20 years the panels they are making then, will likely cost a fraction of what these cost, and be multiple times more efficient.

Do you still have to replace shingles under the array? Does the pitch of your roof equal your latitude or is the array tilted?

I've seen them mounted flat on flat roofs so maybe my knowledge is dated.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Congratulations on taking the plunge! You couldn't even get a decent Fiero parts car for that price.

I've had 10 Fiero's, and have yet to pay over 600 bucks for one, including the 4.9 I drove home.

Now, where do I go to figure my power use, and how many panels I need? Can I get them one at a time or so?

Brad

Good for youuuuu! Now, write a nice thank-you note to the people who actually paid for it.

Electric company ratepayers = $5,200
Federal taxpayers = $2520

Actually, I AM glad for you. If these programs exist, somebody should use them. It's good to see that the somebody is a guy who's excited about it and will make sure its taken care of.

As for the .000000000001 cents that came from me, you're welcome! THAT I can afford.

I didn't see any cost figured in for your battery bank, that's going to be substantial.

quote Originally posted by Shananigans: I didn't see any cost figured in for your battery bank, that's going to be substantial.

Could he just feed it into the "grid" and buy it back later?

Brad

I think that's the plan here. He's not going "off the grid."

My main goal to do it would be to have the Electric company pay me.

If I could make enough I would hook an extra system at another location and double my money. All to get them back just a little for the butt secks they have given me over the past 12 years.

Brad

One of the benefits of solar is that you store the power in your battery banks for 24 hour service. I would only use a puresine wave inverter for delicate electronics. With the wattage his panels will be producing, a five thousand watt inverter seems more appropriate, but he could always upgrade later. It's possible to sell the power back to the utility company and I have heard of electric meters running backwards,but that will only be possible when the sun is shinning,cloudy day forget it.

My boat is fully equipped with solar and wind power, It runs my refrigerator and freezer and all my electronics, I am very happy with my system,and it's much smaller than the system he is talking about.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Could he just feed it into the "grid" and buy it back later? Brad

Correctemundo. Anything extra I don't use gets put onto the grid. I still need power at night because there are no batteries, so I'm still "connected"...

quote Originally posted by spark1: Do you still have to replace shingles under the array? Does the pitch of your roof equal your latitude or is the array tilted? I've seen them mounted flat on flat roofs so maybe my knowledge is dated.

Yes, but only because I need a new roof anyways... The pitch of the roof is 6/12 = 26.6 degrees. My latitude is 28 degrees, so they will lay flat on the roof. Lucky coincidence I think.

Hmmmm. And you say they're paying $2/watt for it? I wonder what a sunny day surge plant to cover A/C loads would cost them? More than $2/watt?

Does the power company get money from the feds for going solar? Are they double-dipping on this? I hate it when other people are smarter than me.

I spend a LOT of my time hating that.

Make sure you call your electric compnay and have them set you up with the right kind of meter for selling the electric back... that would be an easy getting started point.

We are planning solar and wind ... you have until 2016 to take advantage of tax breaks on solar and wind. We have a nice unobstructed southern slope on the roof.

Way back in the 70's during the first oil crisis I installed a solar water heater in/on my house in Phoenix. There were also tax incentives then and the payback was only a year or two. The system worked well for over 20 years till the tank (80 gallons) started to leak. That was in front of my 52 gallon electric heater so we had lots of hot water while the kids were growing up. It was a two-stage Grumman system that used a pump to circulate antifreeze in a closed loop through two collectors and a bib around the tank.

Solar water heaters were a great way to reduce electric costs then, don’t know if they still are now. We were in an all electric home at the time and there were no natural gas lines in the neighborhood. I would seriously consider installing a solar power system just to run the pool pump if I still lived there. We were able to use time-of-day billing and ran the pump during low rate hours so that helped.

Good luck with your new system, sounds like you will get a very good return on your investment.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 03-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Yes, but only because I need a new roof anyways... The pitch of the roof is 6/12 = 26.6 degrees. My latitude is 28 degrees, so they will lay flat on the roof. Lucky coincidence I think.

The absolute mounting angle isn't that important anyway. Consider 1) that the insolation coefficient varies as the sine of the relative angle between the sun and the panel, and 2) that the declination angle of the sun varies about +/-23.5 degrees throughout the year. (A 23.5 degree declination angle will reduce insolation at the panel by about 8%.)

What about the glazing on your panels, both with respect to hail resistance and sun degradation? Glass provides the best transparency, but it's heavy and has the poorest hail resistance. 20 years ago, Tedlar was the glazing of choice ... but I'm sure there are better alternatives today. Fogging of the glazing due to high humidity and less than perfect sealing used to be a problem, too. Has that improved with modern panels?

Another thought... make sure your insurance knows, as one hurricane and you could be looking a huge replacement cost that might not be covered under your current policy.

J.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: What about the glazing on your panels, both with respect to hail resistance and sun degradation? Glass provides the best transparency, but it's heavy and has the poorest hail resistance. 20 years ago, Tedlar was the glazing of choice ... but I'm sure there are better alternatives today. Fogging of the glazing due to high humidity and less than perfect sealing used to be a problem, too. Has that improved with modern panels?

It's tempered glass rated for 1" hail stones.

I don't have any information on the glaze...

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I will be installing a 2600 watt solar system on my house in the coming 90 days. I just wanted to share my cost/benefit breakdown for those of you who still doubt solar energy. 13 Canadian Solar 200 watt panels - $3900 1 2500w SMA 2500 grid-tie inverter - $500 Misc install parts - $2000 Installation and permits/certifications - $2000 Total:$8400. Power company rebate: $2/watt = -$5200. Total out of pocket expense: $3200 30% 2011 Federal Tax Credit: -$2520 Actual system cost: $680. Power production: 3700kwh per year, at 15c/kwh cost savings of $557/year. My power bill will be about cut in half. The system will pay for itself in 1.5 years (vs the 15 it would with no incentives). After that it’s like free money! I’m considering adding additional ground-mount panels and selling the excess power to the grid. Unfortunately I ran out of space on my south-facing roof.

Wow, that's awesome Ryan... the rebate is through FPL? I wasn't sure if they were still doing that. I know they ALSO have a rebate for high efficiency A/C units which I took advantage of when I improved my house a few years ago. (paid for almost half of it)

It's nice because the rebate isn't government sponsored, but instead actually sponsored by the power company (Florida Power & Light).

What do you figure you'll be able to run on the 2600 watts? I was seriously considering this a while back, but at the time, when I ran the cost estimates, it came out to something like nearly $20,000 in cost. When I ran the numbers, it looked like it wouldn't even pay for itself by the time everything would need to be replaced anyway... so it was a bit discouraging. I don't remember what wattage I had calculated at the time, but this was around ~2005-2006. From what I understand, the cost of solar power has gone down considerably. I thought I remember reading that Germany had the market cornered becuase there was such demand there for it... but whatever program they had going was scrapped, and I guess now it came down.

Your system is one of the ones that does not have any battery power storage, correct? I don't see it as needed anyway, but if you don't have anyone at home during the day, that's probably enough to cover the entire cost of your home and earn back some money.

For those reading this who don't know, Florida Power & Light will actually GIVE you money if you generate power. Some of the systems offered tie the power you generate back into the grid, and if you produce more than you use, that goes back on the grid.

So during the late morning in full sun, you're probably generating power, and making money (or at least cutting off your overall bill for the month).


2,600 watts I guess would run a 1000 watt microwave, a house full of CFLs on at the entire time, maintain a water heater, and probably your fridge all at the same time... that's pretty decent. Are they going in the back of your house on the roof, or do they have to go in the front? Are you worried about hurricanes? I know my neighbor has to remove his solar energy water heater just before every hurricane...

solar shingles would be cool!
http://building.dow.com/med...s/2010/20100119d.htm

Of course, they wouldn't work up here, as our roof is covered with snow 6 months out of the year. So, all of you people in the South... put up solar panels so we can have cheap electricity up here

(To be honest, about 20-30% of our power comes from hydroelectric at the moment and once wind power becomes affordable, I will believe we will see that. Currently wind mills are pretty pricey, but that will come down in time and we have a lot of wind here.)

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Wow, that's awesome Ryan... the rebate is through FPL? I wasn't sure if they were still doing that. I know they ALSO have a rebate for high efficiency A/C units which I took advantage of when I improved my house a few years ago. (paid for almost half of it) It's nice because the rebate isn't government sponsored, but instead actually sponsored by the power company (Florida Power & Light). What do you figure you'll be able to run on the 2600 watts? I was seriously considering this a while back, but at the time, when I ran the cost estimates, it came out to something like nearly $20,000 in cost. When I ran the numbers, it looked like it wouldn't even pay for itself by the time everything would need to be replaced anyway... so it was a bit discouraging. I don't remember what wattage I had calculated at the time, but this was around ~2005-2006. From what I understand, the cost of solar power has gone down considerably. I thought I remember reading that Germany had the market cornered becuase there was such demand there for it... but whatever program they had going was scrapped, and I guess now it came down. Your system is one of the ones that does not have any battery power storage, correct? I don't see it as needed anyway, but if you don't have anyone at home during the day, that's probably enough to cover the entire cost of your home and earn back some money. For those reading this who don't know, Florida Power & Light will actually GIVE you money if you generate power. Some of the systems offered tie the power you generate back into the grid, and if you produce more than you use, that goes back on the grid. So during the late morning in full sun, you're probably generating power, and making money (or at least cutting off your overall bill for the month). 2,600 watts I guess would run a 1000 watt microwave, a house full of CFLs on at the entire time, maintain a water heater, and probably your fridge all at the same time... that's pretty decent. Are they going in the back of your house on the roof, or do they have to go in the front? Are you worried about hurricanes? I know my neighbor has to remove his solar energy water heater just before every hurricane...

The rebate is through Progress Energy. Their program opened at 8am on tuesday. They had a million dollars, and maximum $20,000 rebate per person = 50(!!!!!!!) rebates. I submitted my application at 8:05am. I think I got it (knock on wood) because they called my installer asking for more details. My installer, ironically, also wanted in on the program but didn't get his application in until 9 oclock. As far as I know he didn't receive a call back. I expected the program to be popular, and was prepared weeks in advance

It's grid-tied and net-metered, so whatever I don't use gets put back on the grid as a credit for me. Like I said, I use an average of 24kwh/day. This will shave off 13kwh/day off my bill. What's being run by what doesn't really matter to me, but I would imagine while in the heat of the day I will be putting power into the grid. And at night vice versa.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Power production: 3700kwh per year, at 15c/kwh cost savings of $557/year. My power bill will be about cut in half. The system will pay for itself in 1.5 years (vs the 15 it would with no incentives). After that it’s like free money! I’m considering adding additional ground-mount panels and selling the excess power to the grid. Unfortunately I ran out of space on my south-facing roof.

Maybe you should wait until that year or year and a half have run its course before assuming it will do as advertised?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: The rebate is through Progress Energy. Their program opened at 8am on tuesday. They had a million dollars, and maximum $20,000 rebate per person = 50(!!!!!!!) rebates. I submitted my application at 8:05am. I think I got it (knock on wood) because they called my installer asking for more details. My installer, ironically, also wanted in on the program but didn't get his application in until 9 oclock. As far as I know he didn't receive a call back. I expected the program to be popular, and was prepared weeks in advance

So a whole lot of taxpayers *can't* get the same deal, but help pay for *your* solar set up? Hmmm...not so sure about this.

Don't get me wrong, I would really like to have solar power *and* be 100% off the grid. But I remain skeptical about it. If it doesn't work without heavy government subsidies, then it isn't economically viable.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 03-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I've had 10 Fiero's, and have yet to pay over 600 bucks for one, including the 4.9 I drove home. Brad

You're not buying Fieros in my market. Add in a few hundred bucks to transport one from there to here, plus Fieros down here don't have rust because it rarely snows here.

------------------
Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: So a whole lot of taxpayers *can't* get the same deal, but help pay for *your* solar set up? Hmmm...not so sure about this. Don't get me wrong, I would really like to have solar power *and* be 100% off the grid. But I remain skeptical about it. If it doesn't work without heavy government subsidies, then it isn't economically viable.

Progress Energy is footing the largest portion of the rebate. If you don't like where their power comes from, you can shop around here. Free enterprise, capitalism and all that...

Also, assuming 80% output, steady electricity cost(HA!) and no rebates - they pay for themselves in 19 years... Over their 40 year lifetime they'll make you $9400. Or if you go by the warranty of the PV panel, over 25 years they'll make you $2700. It's economically viable but Americans don't think long term. 3 months - maybe.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 03-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Progress Energy is footing the largest portion of the rebate. If you don't like where their power comes from, you can shop around here. Free enterprise, capitalism and all that...

Aren't they getting subsidies from the government for that? It's not free enterprise if it is government subsidized. I'll be a lot more impressed if/when solar power can stand on its own.

quote Also, assuming 80% output, steady electricity cost(HA!) and no rebates - they pay for themselves in 19 years... Over their 40 year lifetime they'll make you $9400. Or if you go by the warranty of the PV panel, over 25 years they'll make you $2700. It's economically viable but Americans don't think long term. 3 months - maybe.

I'll be a lot more confident about this if all these "theoreticals" end up working as well in practice as on paper.

I wish I could be happy for you. Really, I do. But considering all of the people that have to dig out of their own pockets so that you can do this, well, I can't. Not so much what you are taking advantage of, but that the government is involved at all. Even more so that only a 'select few' can take advantage of this.

Solar electric would fail miserably if not for subsidies. The payback is simply too long, the square feet required to generate any reasonable amount of wattage is huge. Solar thermal, now that is good stuff, and thus, there's very few 'incentives' for that.

Again, please understand that I'm not really upset with you, but rather that the government (and the power companies via SREC's) are subsidizing this.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Aren't they getting subsidies from the government for that?

That I don't know. If you do, please post the proof.

My experience from dealing closely with the power company is that they don't give away anything. Either they are getting the money from the government (taxpayer) or they have been charging all users a "green" fee and this pays for such projects. For example, Consumers Energy is giving away lightbulbs and other items, but they have been charging each user a "fee" to pay for it. Now, I think this is part of a government program that requires they do this. Again, I have not seen a power company go bankrupt yet

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: My experience from dealing closely with the power company is that they don't give away anything. Either they are getting the money from the government (taxpayer) or they have been charging all users a "green" fee and this pays for such projects. For example, Consumers Energy is giving away lightbulbs and other items, but they have been charging each user a "fee" to pay for it. Now, I think this is part of a government program that requires they do this. Again, I have not seen a power company go bankrupt yet

I actually suspect the government may be requiring all energy companies to have some % renewable power generation. If it's 0.2% (or whatever) it would be cheaper to do a program like this than build a commercial plant, lease land, etc.

Did you see this? And the requirements for the FL rebate?

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/faq/index.htm

They may or may not be getting subsidies, but they are most definitely being required by our dear government to produce a certain percentage of their power via "green" sources. Providing incentives for customers to install solar panels on their own houses is cheaper then building a solar plant of their own - government meddlers satisfied, customers satisfied? Win/Win.

edit: Beat me to it while I was typing:

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I actually suspect the government may be requiring all energy companies to have some % renewable power generation. If it's 0.2% (or whatever) it would be cheaper to do a program like this than build a commercial plant, lease land, etc.

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 03-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I actually suspect the government may be requiring all energy companies to have some % renewable power generation. If it's 0.2% (or whatever) it would be cheaper to do a program like this than build a commercial plant, lease land, etc.

I believe it is still cheaper to have one or two large sources of power than it is to pay people to install power production equipment. That was the whole reason for a power company... they can produce energy cheaper because they make it in large quantities. The problem is our current restrictions by governments and tree huggers. You mentioned that it could take 20 years or so to see a return on investment. Since it isn't free money from the money tree, then someone is paying for it and it will take 20 years to see a return. Well, a lot can happen in 20 years, such as a broken panel, which then costs money to replace. So... instead of a power company building a generation plant and recouping that in 10-20 years, you have a bunch of people generating power. These people may or may not keep generating the power for 20 years. Therefore the investment loses money.

Just my thoughts... I like the idea, but I don't see the practicality.. like the VOLT.... $40K for a $15K car... and you will never save enough in fuel to make up the $25K difference.