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Planned Parenthood voted down by House by Butter
Started on: 02-22-2011 03:12 PM
Replies: 234
Last post by: ktthecarguy on 03-05-2011 01:39 AM
ktthecarguy
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Report this Post03-03-2011 04:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:


But where we are today allows us to infringe in the most final way possible on another's right to live.


What other? The unborn, or the mother? Which one's rights do you prefer to infringe upon? My preference is in favor of the existing person (the mother), over the potential person (the unborn).
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Report this Post03-03-2011 05:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Newf, I don't think anyone is attacking you for your beliefs. I believe abortion is murder. Not just for me... it's murder for all people. That's why we DO discuss it with those who think differently. That's why we don't just agree to disagree... because it's SUCH an important issue.


I hear what you are saying but my point is exactly that, YOU believe it is murder, many don't and to impose your beliefs on others is a tough call in my books.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 05:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:


I hear what you are saying but my point is exactly that, YOU believe it is murder, many don't and to impose your beliefs on others is a tough call in my books.


...which is why the laws that we have, although imperfect, are probably the best we can do. They allow us to have our own beliefs, but not infringe on anyone else's beliefs.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 08:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:

Right now, today, the answer is, abortion is NEVER murder. Maybe someday, when science advances further, we may be able to make a finer distinction. But not now.


Reading your responses, in your view, and what you believe is societies view, it does seem that if the one to be destroyed is aware of itself being destroyed, aware of what it will be missing by dying, then it is murder.

If it is possible in the future science advances enough they decide abortion is murder, and has been all along, and "we were wrong", imagine living with that oops moment. Maybe society will be so cold by then that it will not matter.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 08:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post

2.5

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quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:

And, yet again, you are blurring the distinction between human life and human INTELLIGENT life. Cancer is certainly not intelligent, but it is most definately human.


Cancer is not (a) human life. It is a growth (upon) a human being.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick's DadClick Here to visit Patrick's Dad's HomePageClick Here to Email Patrick's DadSend a Private Message to Patrick's DadDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:

If you believe that human intelligent life begins at conception, I ask you this: show me the brain and nervous system in a blastocyst. Hint: it can't be done, because there isn't any.


This argument is actually superseded by practicality. A woman doesn't discover that she is pregnant until two to three weeks after conception. If she then makes an appointment, she usually waits three to four weeks. At best, she is in her fifth week, worst (in this example), seventh.

Week five (truncated), courtesy pregnancy.org:

• First heartbeats begin
• Umbilical cord develops
• Blood is now pumping
• Most other organs begin to develop - Your infant's lungs start to appear, along with her brain.

Week seven (truncated):

Elbows form
Fingers start to develop
Feet start to appear with tiny notches for the toes
Ears eyes and nose start to appear
Intestines start to form in the umbilical cord
Teeth begin to develop under the gums

I had read that most abortions happen in the 10th through 15th week, but I can't find the source at the moment. Safe to say, by week ten, the preborn baby has a brain, a spine and a nervous system that can feel pain.


 
quote
Originally posted by newf:

Your (or my) political system is not set up for a opinion poll on every issue, we elect politicians to represent us and they have to make decisions about what they think is best for the country, state, city, town and/or individual. You think the electorate wants or has the time to consider every issue completely? With the amount of voter apathy for elections I can only imagine what it would be like for individual issues.


Would that we could have it in the legislature. Abortion (essentially "on demand") was forced on us by Roe v Wade, and its companion Doe v Bolton, later enhanced by a ruling that I can't find (I believe it is a 1998 ruling by SCOTUS, dealing in "privacy"). The courts have been used as a hammer to force abortion on the Nation. This is done because supporters knew that they would never prevail in the legislative process, despite the advent of the DIsco era. Abortion is a hot button that no politician wants to touch - Liberals are afraid of waking the sleeping beast, and Conservatives are afraid of the Lamestream Media.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ButterClick Here to Email ButterSend a Private Message to ButterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad:


Abortion is a hot button that no politician wants to touch - Liberals are afraid of waking the sleeping beast, and Conservatives are afraid of the Lamestream Media.


Just thought it interesting the above is what was going through my head when I started this thread. My original intentions of this thread was to see if the forum could maybe come up with a better way of conducting government business around this controversial subject but I didn't want to be obvious about it. I appreciate everyone's input ideas and views. It has been interesting to see how this thread has progressed. Never thought it would get this long.

 
quote
Originally posted by Butter:

Planned Parenthood voted down by House of rep. I don't think that was a good idea to vote down.
How does one go about finding out about this vote on Planned Parenthood?

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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for avengador1Click Here to Email avengador1Send a Private Message to avengador1Direct Link to This Post
I just wanted to add these articles to the discussion.
Roe Changes Her Mind
http://www.newshounds.us/20...changes_her_mind.php
 
quote
Billed as an exclusive announcement for Hannity&Colmes, Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe) appeared tonight with her lawyer, Allen Parker, to announce that she has changed her mind about abortion and wants to see Roe vs. Wade overturned. Her lawyer will be filing with the Supreme Court tomorrow morning to have the original ruling overturned. 1/17/05

Norma McCorvey stated tonight that she had felt responsible "for all the children murdered" until she was "saved through the blood of the lamb" Her lawyer added that abortion hurts women physically which is a fact unknown previously.When Colmes asked Roe if more women didn't die from illegal abortions,she claimed that she didn't know.Parker claimed that suicides among women who had abortions are very high. Roe added that she is trying to make up the loss of children with re population.

Then Colmes asked them what penalty should a woman pay if she has an abortion once it is made illegal? Parker was vague about the legality except that abortionists should be punished.
"People pressure them.Then they never see the abortionist until he's between their legs,"Parker said while skirting Colme's question.

Hannity was pleased to announce that there will be a press conference outside the Supreme Court tomorrow at 11AM. Guess what news channel will take you there live.

Comment:They're sure not wasting any time on this issue and looks like this administration intends to roll right over us now that they think they can. I couldn't help thinking about Paula Jones while watching McCorvey tonight.Who's paying for Norma's legal fees?



'Roe v. Wade For Men' Suit Filed
http://www.cbsnews.com/stor...al/main1385124.shtml
 
quote
Contending that women have more options than men do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit — nicknamed "Roe v. Wade for Men" — to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter. The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have — it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Mich.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that — because of a physical condition — she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear (from the court) is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court will probably rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.

Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government — literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."


I guess nothing ever became of these. The male 'Roe v. Wade' suit was ridiculous. All the guy has to do is to wear a rubber to prevent an unwanted pregnancy and avoid any future obligations.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by avengador1:

I just wanted to add these articles to the discussion.
Roe Changes Her Mind
http://www.newshounds.us/20...changes_her_mind.php

All the guy has to do is to wear a rubber to prevent an unwanted pregnancy and avoid any future obligations.


Condoms and the "pill" aren't 100% I'm afraid.

Plus think of all those potential lives murdered in the tip of a condom.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-03-2011).]

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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:


Condoms and the "pill" aren't 100% I'm afraid.

Plus think of all those potential lives murdered in the tip of a condom.



Unfortunately, some people actually believe that . They want to outlaw condoms too.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:


Unfortunately, some people actually believe that . They want to outlaw condoms too.


I doubt hardly any actually believe that. The percent would undoubtedly be less than the percent of abortions due to rape /incest. Less than 3%.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-03-2011).]

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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:
Condoms and the "pill" aren't 100% I'm afraid.

Plus think of all those potential lives murdered in the tip of a condom.


yup, and the one that every woman of child bearing age leaks out EVERY month....

but, them dont count....do they? nor do miscarriages, for some reason - even late term ones.....
maybe that would be the thing to do: charge a woman who has a miscarraige for murder. see how far that goes.

they call it a BIRTH certificate for a reason.
there IS a line. a well established, and long respected, line.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Cancer is not (a) human life. It is a growth (upon) a human being.


OMG

okay, you are right. Cancer is not human life. IT'S CHEETAH!!! Or is it earthworm?! NO, IT'S ALIEN!!!



Just out of curiousity, did you reread your own post? Cancer is not life, but it is growing?!? Can you explain that OBVIOUS contradiction?!?
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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


they call it a BIRTH certificate for a reason.
there IS a line. a well established, and long respected, line.


I see, back to the magic labia then?
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2.5

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quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:


OMG

okay, you are right. Cancer is not human life. IT'S CHEETAH!!! Or is it earthworm?! NO, IT'S ALIEN!!!



Just out of curiousity, did you reread your own post? Cancer is not life, but it is growing?!? Can you explain that OBVIOUS contradiction?!?


You explain yours please. My sentance makes perfect sense.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


yup, and the one that every woman of child bearing age leaks out EVERY month....

but, them dont count....do they? nor do miscarriages, for some reason - even late term ones.....
maybe that would be the thing to do: charge a woman who has a miscarraige for murder. see how far that goes.

they call it a BIRTH certificate for a reason.
there IS a line. a well established, and long respected, line.


Funny you should mention that... I just now heard on the news, a representative in some state (didn't hear which, was just half listening) introduced legislation to make the DEATH PENALTY optional for miscarriages.

Wait... WTF??????
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ktthecarguy

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


You explain yours please. My sentance makes perfect sense.


Are you saying that cancer is:

a) not alive

b)not human cells

c) not a separate individual

d) something else (elaborate please)
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Report this Post03-03-2011 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post


Not a separate individual, and never will be.


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Report this Post03-03-2011 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
I see, back to the magic labia then?


it is not magic
but - yes - that is where it all hinges

there is no "intend to birth" certificate

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Report this Post03-03-2011 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
Hmmmmm when is the soul introduced to the unborn?
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Report this Post03-03-2011 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:
Funny you should mention that... I just now heard on the news, a representative in some state (didn't hear which, was just half listening) introduced legislation to make the DEATH PENALTY optional for miscarriages.

Wait... WTF??????


DAMN! most I'd could fathom would be manslaughter charges for a miscarriage

there is also RU486
and, there is now a even better "morning after" pill, which can be taken regularly, after potentially fertile sex.

fear not - there are many ways for a woman to NOT give birth. with or without PP.
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Pyrthian

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quote
Originally posted by newf:
Hmmmmm when is the soul introduced to the unborn?


when it takes its first breath
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Report this Post03-03-2011 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:

Hmmmmm when is the soul introduced to the unborn?


I thought scientists didn't believe in a soul.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-03-2011).]

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Report this Post03-03-2011 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


I thought scientists didn't believe in a soul.



You thought wrong. I'm sure there are plenty that do.

[This message has been edited by newf (edited 03-03-2011).]

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newf

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quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


there is also RU486
and, there is now a even better "morning after" pill, which can be taken regularly, after potentially fertile sex.

fear not - there are many ways for a woman to NOT give birth. with or without PP.


Yup they'll be back to getting abortions done in back alleys using coat hangers.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:


You thought wrong. I'm sure there are plenty that do.



It was a little tongue in cheek.
The subject seems to keep changing around here.
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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


It was a little tongue in cheek.
The subject seems to keep changing around here.


Blahhh sorry, long day.
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Report this Post03-03-2011 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:
Yup they'll be back to getting abortions done in back alleys using coat hangers.


naw - I'll provide a much better service than that
not exactly rocket science
just like when they ban guns - I'll be making guns
if abortions become impossible to get - I will be a source

it is good to be skilled - and - I am always willing to train

but - glad that is NOT a likely scenario. in either case.
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Report this Post03-04-2011 02:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Not a separate individual, and never will be.



Okay, so Cancer is not a separate individual. We agree on that.

Is cancer alive?
Is it made up of human (mutated) cells?
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Report this Post03-04-2011 02:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:


OMG

okay, you are right. Cancer is not human life. IT'S CHEETAH!!! Or is it earthworm?! NO, IT'S ALIEN!!!



Just out of curiousity, did you reread your own post? Cancer is not life, but it is growing?!? Can you explain that OBVIOUS contradiction?!?


Man, you SERIOUSLY need to adjust your tone. I don't mean to play father, but this is NOT how you debate. Show some respect. That can go for others on both sides in this thread, but you are one blatant rude individual.

 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:
One major difference... a person in a vegetative state, is already born.

So, you consider ALL human life sacred? Including cancer?


Sure, they are born, but you keep trying to make the distinction between intelligent life and mere human life. So which is it? Are people in vegetated states intelligent.. or not?

Cancer is not human life. Cancer is a mutation from a human cell, sure. I also don't consider my blood human life, or my arm, or my head. It is the system that makes up the complete human life. It's a mixture of all kinds of amazing workings. In the first few days of pregnancy, those combined male and female cells are growing at an exponential rate... they are already forming something, with a desired end result. It is a complete system working together and growing new parts every day. It is human life, and it is sacred.

You and I are seeing things completely differently, but I think there is something to say about how you are reacting to all of this, compared to how I am. Relax, and let's talk about this with rational thoughts and calm language.


Newf, I completely understand your point of view. Just like in every case, it's hard to determine whether to fight for what you believe in, or let something go. In this case, I do think there is more than just something worth fighting for. There is someone. But again, I respect your views... I just wish you and others thought differently. But there is nothing I can do to change that.
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ktthecarguy
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Report this Post03-04-2011 03:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Sure, they are born, but you keep trying to make the distinction between intelligent life and mere human life. So which is it? Are people in vegetated states intelligent.. or not?

Cancer is not human life. Cancer is a mutation from a human cell, sure. I also don't consider my blood human life, or my arm, or my head. It is the system that makes up the complete human life. It's a mixture of all kinds of amazing workings. In the first few days of pregnancy, those combined male and female cells are growing at an exponential rate... they are already forming something, with a desired end result. It is a complete system working together and growing new parts every day. It is human life, and it is sacred.

You and I are seeing things completely differently, but I think there is something to say about how you are reacting to all of this, compared to how I am. Relax, and let's talk about this with rational thoughts and calm language.


Newf, I completely understand your point of view. Just like in every case, it's hard to determine whether to fight for what you believe in, or let something go. In this case, I do think there is more than just something worth fighting for. There is someone. But again, I respect your views... I just wish you and others thought differently. But there is nothing I can do to change that.


I admit I got kinda worked up in that exchange, but I didn't call him any names (which is more than I can say for some people on this forum). But it really bothered me that he, and now you, keep insisting that cancer is not alive. BTW when I refer to cancer as human life, I am referring to it as being alive, not that it is a separate being, which it obviously is not. But it is most definately alive.

Hearing anyone insist that growing cells are not alive is, to me, akin to insisting that the Earth is flat. It goes againt all scientific evidence to the contrary, and is maddening as hell!
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Report this Post03-04-2011 04:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Newf, I completely understand your point of view. Just like in every case, it's hard to determine whether to fight for what you believe in, or let something go. In this case, I do think there is more than just something worth fighting for. There is someone. But again, I respect your views... I just wish you and others thought differently. But there is nothing I can do to change that.


Hey, I know it's a sensitive subject for some so I hope no one is too offended by anything I said. I certainly can't say anyone is wrong for being a pro-life supporter. I think it's a matter of personal opinion akin to religion and such.
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Report this Post03-04-2011 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:


I admit I got kinda worked up in that exchange, but I didn't call him any names (which is more than I can say for some people on this forum). But it really bothered me that he, and now you, keep insisting that cancer is not alive. BTW when I refer to cancer as human life, I am referring to it as being alive, not that it is a separate being, which it obviously is not. But it is most definately alive.

Hearing anyone insist that growing cells are not alive is, to me, akin to insisting that the Earth is flat. It goes againt all scientific evidence to the contrary, and is maddening as hell!


Lol, I didn't say cancer cells weren't alive. I stated in my post that cancer cells are mutated human cells. I know how cancer occurs, how it spreads, and why many of the different types happen... I'm not uneducated.

What I mean, is it is not A Human Life, which IS what the body of cells that start growing at conception are. They form a system of a living, fleshly human being. They are by all emotional and logical reasoning a human being. Now, if you want to start getting into whether or not it is a human being as defined by science, then that is when I'll leave the conversation because you just don't get it. It's not a heartless and cold decision... this is literally the balance between killing a child in a womb, or not, from my eyes.

I completely understand that you think differently. You are trying to show me that cancer is human life, when I don't consider that in that qualification. It is a mutation upon a human cell, which is only a small part of the system's entirety. The system as a whole is the human Life, by my reasoning. Again, I'm trying to show you that while science IS important and even vital to this discussion, when it comes to the definition of a human life, I don't think it can be put on such a cold scale and measured. When would the child be considered human life? Upon birth? Nothing is different except it's now out of the womb. After the third trimester starts? Why wasn't it a human life the day before? Second trimester? Same question.... I find the "calculation" too cold for the subject matter. You MUST include emotions in your logic to ensure a reasonable answer.


Newf, I don't really think I could ever be offended by anything you ever say. Sure, we are almost always on opposing sides, but your calm manner gives way to pleasant discussion without offense.
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Report this Post03-04-2011 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Lol, I didn't say cancer cells weren't alive. I stated in my post that cancer cells are mutated human cells. I know how cancer occurs, how it spreads, and why many of the different types happen... I'm not uneducated.

What I mean, is it is not A Human Life, which IS what the body of cells that start growing at conception are. They form a system of a living, fleshly human being. They are by all emotional and logical reasoning a human being. Now, if you want to start getting into whether or not it is a human being as defined by science, then that is when I'll leave the conversation because you just don't get it. It's not a heartless and cold decision... this is literally the balance between killing a child in a womb, or not, from my eyes.

I completely understand that you think differently. You are trying to show me that cancer is human life, when I don't consider that in that qualification. It is a mutation upon a human cell, which is only a small part of the system's entirety. The system as a whole is the human Life, by my reasoning. Again, I'm trying to show you that while science IS important and even vital to this discussion, when it comes to the definition of a human life, I don't think it can be put on such a cold scale and measured. When would the child be considered human life? Upon birth? Nothing is different except it's now out of the womb. After the third trimester starts? Why wasn't it a human life the day before? Second trimester?
.


This explains my view as well.

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Report this Post03-05-2011 01:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ktthecarguyClick Here to visit ktthecarguy's HomePageSend a Private Message to ktthecarguyDirect Link to This Post
Well, it seems like we are all dancing around the same side of the argument, but not realizing it. I agree with you both that living cells are NOT a separate human being, just the building blocks that make up a human being. And that is ultimately my point about this whole discussion: I think the wrong terms are being used to describe what we are talking about.

The point I have been trying to make is that our society values the human sentient life, not the individual cells. That's why it's okay to amputate a gangrenous arm, or kill cancer, and at this time, to abort an embryo. (Personally, I have strong reservations about aborting fetuses, for the reasons you all mentioned. Too close to being a sentient being at that point. But again, that is my opinion, not supported by facts).

As for when the group of cells has a soul? It seems opinions are all over the map on this one. Some say when it takes it's first breath. some say when the egg is fertilized. I think it is somewhere in between. But no one knows for sure. So I think it is important that we all respect each other's opinions, until such time (if ever) that one opinion can be proven above the others.
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