In The Book “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother,” Amy Chua describes her relentless determination to make her two daughters successful by raising them in a strict fashion, contrary to what she sees as modern American standards of permissiveness and mediocrity. In this excerpt, she starts to explain her parenting philosophy.

A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it’s like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I’ve done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:

• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the #1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.

Even when Western parents think they’re being strict, they usually don’t come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments thirty minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It’s hours two and three that get tough.

Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that “stressing academic success is not good for children” or that “parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun.” By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be “the best” students, that “academic achievement reflects successful parenting,” and that if children did not excel at school then there was “a problem” and parents “were not doing their job.” Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately ten times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.

This brings me to my final point. Some might think that the American sports parent is an analog to the Chinese mother. This is so wrong. Unlike your typical Western overscheduling soccer mom, the Chinese mother believes that:

1. Schoolwork always comes first;
2. An A-minus is a bad grade;
3. Your children must be two years ahead of their classmates in math;
4. You must never compliment your children in public;
5. If your child ever disagrees with a teacher or coach, you must always take the side of the teacher or coach;
6. The only activities your children should be permitted to do are those in which they can eventually win a medal;
7. That medal must be gold.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/...5969/ns/today-books/

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-11-2011).]

I have no doubt that American kids can live with those rules. It's their pansy parents that wouldn't be able to do it.

While some of it is good for sure, and many here are too lax. Chinese also commit suicide do to stress, and I would argue lack of childhood.

....hmpf...really.....not only one - but TWO daughters?

so - why they make such low grade products? or is them only the ones they send to us? lol

and this is from a communist nation? such competition? how can that be?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ....hmpf...really.....not only one - but TWO daughters? ?

Is there still a one child policy in places in China?

jeesh... well while I don't want my kids to be disrespectul, criminals, or a drain on our society in general, I think I can raise productive HAPPY children without following her rules - in fact I did and I am. I believe in a well-rounded raising - sports if you find it fun (not if you don't) and I will support you in that decision, school before sports (if you don't study you can't play), family time (you will spend time with me even if you think I'm a dork - and that extends to your siblings and your father too), church (you need to go and learn about God), respect (you will respect me and other adults, you will help little 'ol ladies cross the street, you will respect our home and the things we have in it and outside of it, you will respect our country and the soldiers who fight for our freedom, you will respect the life of yourself and others around you), friends (have lots, have them over so I can meet them too, spend time at their house if I am comfortable with that. friends are an important part of your social development), and have some fun. I want my kids to look back on their childhood and remember "happiness" not 3 hours of cello practice.... but that's just my opinion

quote Originally posted by nellieship: .... but that's just my opinion

You should write a book too.

What's more important, 'happiness', or 'success' ?

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 01-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: While some of it is good for sure, and many here are too lax. Chinese also commit suicide do to stress, and I would argue lack of childhood.

And Americankids commit suicide because... someone made fun of them on the internet....


Gotta find a balance. Even a Tiger ocasionally stops to swat at a Butterfly.

I think that children should be able to "play", but self disipline and a posessing a desire to learn (and possibly fail) are important. Most kids would like to just sit there, and play have their parents feed them , and be that way forever. Th

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ....hmpf...really.....not only one - but TWO daughters? so - why they make such low grade products? or is them only the ones they send to us? lol and this is from a communist nation? such competition? how can that be?

Oh, they make some very good products, but American consumers won't pay the prices they demand. America wants demands cheap crap, and that's what we get and that's what buy.

Ya ever stop to ponder the strife in this world caused by so many people chasing what they determine to be best? Competition is not inherently bad or anything, but an A- is good enough to be globally competitive. Good enough is valid, and has it's applications.
But these Chinese parents are half driven by personal pride and personal aspirations.
We all want our kids to live the best life this world can offer, but Bill Gates was NOT a straight A student. Nor was Donald Trump. Nor was Oprah Winfrey. Nor Will Smith. Every one of them had play time.
Pride in your outstanding children is good, but believing your kids are inherently superior, no. They may not claim that, but how else to explain the aspects we are privy to?
Competition for diminishing resources breeds division. In those circumstances, all peoples will naturally split into competing factions, with each faction believing they are inherently superior. Not every individual will jump into the fray, but the tendencies are part of humanity.
It could be argued that feelings of inferiority are driving them, but equally and oppositely, it can be desire to prove yourself right, and be sure of convincing others. It takes a hell of a lot to convince most people they were wrong, but what a huge psychological advantage it is if successful.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 01-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: This part is messed up. Trying to remove all thinking from parenting? Kids are not all the same.

I'm not trolling, or trying to start an argument here.

How successful are your kids?

The way I see it right now, right or wrong, China has surpassed us on everything that is important. Right down to how they feel about their country.

This is a 100% relationship to how they were raised.

Now, I ask you again, financially, and structurally, how do your children compare to the children the author raised? Structurally includes, are they ever late, do the make sure every bill is paid on time? Do they have a pride in their country that is unequaled? Do/did they get straight A's in school, and were they proud of that?

There is more to it, I'm generalizing of course, but you get my point.

Brad

Last weekend the guest soloist performing with the Kansas City Symphony was 20 year old pianist Haochen Zhang. At a "meet the artist" talk preceding the performance, he related his interesting story:

When he was about two years old his family was living in Shanghai and his mother was learning English. One day she was reading an old Readers Digest and came across an article that said studying music increases a child's IQ, so she immediately enrolled him in piano lessons. It was the first piano he had ever seen. His first public piano performance was at age 3 1/2, and his first recital was at age 5 ... where he performed all of J.S. Bach’s two-part inventions, plus sonatas by Haydn and Mozart. His debut performance with a symphony orchestra was a year later, at age 6. At age 19 he won the Van Cliburn International Piano Competition.

Now that's a prodigy!

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Isolde: We all want our kids to live the best life this world can offer, but Bill Gates was NOT a straight A student. Nor was Donald Trump. Nor was Oprah Winfrey. Nor Will Smith. Every one of them had play time.

Imagine how much these people would have done had they actually been straight A students! Just imagine as driven as they are now, if they had started the same path when they were children. And Bill Gates did not have "play time" as you put it, that guy was driven beyond what the average person was, had he been pushed further we wouldn't be putting up with crap from Jobs right now IMHO.

Brad

Interesting points re: some of the "successful" people weren't exactly "A" students...but they existed in a time and place where they were able to grab hold of their destiny and make themselves a success. They all have AMBITION, and are in an enviroment which allowed them to find a different way to succeed...

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Is there still a one child policy in places in China?

For the most part that is true.
Mostly in the big cities,
However a second child is usually had with the blessing of the government base on an evaluation.
The attitude of most Chinese is they are OK with the rules,
When visiting China one comes to the conclusion immediately that there are just too many people.
The Chinese feel the same way, they have to deal with it their whole lives.
One of my friend who is poor was allowed to have a second child even thought here first was a boy.
Though most Chinese are strict parents it does not always equate to being a good parent.
As we all know parenting is a very complicated thing.
Their society, where there are no safety nets or free rides helps in the equation.
You know from an early age that life it tough, and competing against a billion others is your challenge. Thinking for them is way more black and white than ours is.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: For the most part that is true. Mostly in the big cities, However a second child is usually had with the blessing of the government base on an evaluation. The attitude of most Chinese is they are OK with the rules, When visiting China one comes to the conclusion immediately that there are just too many people. The Chinese feel the same way, they have to deal with it their whole lives. One of my friend who is poor was allowed to have a second child even thought here first was a boy. Though most Chinese are strict parents it does not always equate to being a good parent. As we all know parenting is a very complicated thing. Their society, where there are no safety nets or free rides helps in the equation. You know from an early age that life it tough, and competing against a billion others is your challenge. Thinking for them is way more black and white than ours is.

I think that is some very good insight.

..The murdering stupid chinks finally figured it out,,these assassins are piggy backing on the success of American,s .If we stop doing business with these murdering slant eyed scum they would fall apart in 2 years
..Tiger mothers are chink mothers in America
..Stop chinese imports & see how far these monsters fall into the crapper
The up & comming chinese are taught we are dirt bags,the majority dislike us,,So get out there and buy some monster chink products ,,They still need time to consolidate thier control of British Columbia,not even china has more informants..
...Wonder how many chink new born babies were drown in rice paddies
..The chinks are the worst people in the world today,still murdering, still torturing..Putin & the muslims can't come close ..I hope at least one of our nuclear missiles has "special delivery to the sons of Han on it"" written on it..

I'm not Chinese and I wasn't allowed a grade lower than an A, that included gym. Also had to be in better shape than everyone else, and was dragged to some kind of physical activity every night. I learned to like it, and I still do it today. I'm grateful my parents were hard on me and had high expectations. I would raise my kids the same way and not think twice.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: I think if you combined Gates and Jobs, you'd have a nice OS + Entertainment + Technology. Gates' OS' were too flat, and Jobs was too artsy-fartsy. ""Tiger Mother" Parenting Is Why The Chinese Produce "Prodigies"." I keep seeing "Perogies"

I agree completely.

And I wasn't, but dang it now I do.

Brad

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Is there still a one child policy in places in China?

I think if you'll look at their first names, you'll agree they are probably living in America.

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: The up & comming chinese are taught we are dirt bags,the majority dislike us,

So they are teaching them the truth?

Look around you man, how many people would rip you off, rather cut your throat than let you do even as simple a thing as merge into traffic?
How many "punk" kids do you think there are nowadays? Hell, I've even had kids tell me off just to be punks.

I say a little teaching of any sort is just what is needed.

Brad

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: What's more important, 'happiness', or 'success' ?

Success breeds happiness... no?

Interesting about the Tiger Mothers. I saw them in the '60s in Japan and Korea.

Here is an interesting article that wasn't googled or quoted from a right wing blog but it is interesting in that it states a case that a homogenous population such as the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and some Western cultures excel because of a common cultural goal and mindset. http://www.washingtonpost.c...AR2011010904011.html

A diverse population such as the United States is both blessed by our diversity and to a point, cursed because of diverse values and socioeconomic situations. i am not a racist but this article could be interpreted as racist except that the numbers reflect the diversity of our best resource: Our children.

[This message has been edited by starlightcoupe (edited 01-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by carnut122: I think if you'll look at their first names, you'll agree they are probably living in America.

The mother's English is the better clue.
Virtually every person that I know in China has or wants an adopted American first name.
They go by their adopted American name whenever they are conversing in English. My best friend Kelly who speaks English perfectly, her Chinese first name is "she".
She was reluctant to tell me figuring I might find humor in it.
I had many people, mostly girls ask me what would be a good name for them.
One of the girls at the restaurant I ate dim sum every morning asked me to give her a name, I said Molly fits you perfectly.
She asked me to write it out on a paper so she could spell it right.
A few days later I get an email from her saying she really likes her new name Morry.
I called her and she explained that one of the girls she works with told her I misspelled it and it was supposed to have two R's no L's.
In Hong Kong because of British influence the name Mary is ofter taken by the locals. but in Cantonese it is pronounced like Morry even thought they spell it correctly. Has to do with how they pronounce their a. So this girl in China who said I spelled it wrong, had heard the name Mary a thousand times but never seen it written, and had never heard the name Molly before, figured I was all screwed up.
So now there is a girl in China who was given the name Molly, but thinks it is spelled with two Rs and she has the email addy morry****@ hotmail.com.
(Left off her last name.)

[This message has been edited by partfiero (edited 01-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Success breeds happiness... no?

Depends - success certainly creates the opportunity to be happy- if you have enough to live a comfortable life, have healthcare and all that...how many 'car guys' do you know that enjoy the build more then the successful end result? They go on to the next build... They enjoy their success, but are happier when they are restoring/upgrading/etc.

But I know a LOT of "successful" people that are miserable.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: • not be the #1 student in every subject except gym and drama

I wonder what happens to the kid who isn't #1.

quote Originally posted by css9450: I wonder what happens to the kid who isn't #1.

They bring shame upon themselves and their family.
(They're number 2)
But if you settle for being one of the top 10, and then you're 12, you don't feel so bad. Then your'e 15, who cares? You're still 15/30, and thats....mediocre. meh.
You tell your kid to strive for the best, but there comes a point when perhaps you realize they aren't. But until that day, push push push for them to succeed. and if you don't push your kids, why complain about those parents who push their kids? So they have a 'crappy' childhood, or a shortened one, or none at all. it's the parent's choice.

What bugs me is the parents who don't give two sh*ts about their kid, and then their kid learns how to get by by being a little disruptive f*cker,or a bully, because they can get the work they need THAT way, or because they are jealous that the other parents actually give a crap about their kids.(Not talking about parents who need to work 2 jobs just to make ends meet, I'm talking about parents who treat their kids like they are their goldfish - sprinkle some food in the bowl ocassionally)

Two of my best teachers - one would send home a "your kid's failing" note if you were getting less then an "A". The other gave us grades such as "broccoli", "peas", "carrots", etc. They were meaningless. Depends on the class, though. The 'gradeless' one was a Religious studies class, he wanted us to enjoy learning, not worry about grades.

One things I gotta say, they sure are adaptable, even if they don't want to accept other traditions they will take on a second persona to succeed in a society which has trouble pernouncing their name. Also some will do some 'fun' "tax"/gov assistance stuff w/ that.
Most of the friends I have who use a second name, I tend to use their original name.

More and more people being born, less and less jobs. I remember taking a business class where the teacher said we needed to slow down and adapt to other cultures, I totally disagreed, because here - you slow down, *bump*,someone else just replaced you. It would only work if the whole business culture shifted...

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 01-12-2011).]

When I was in grad school, there were quite a few Chinese students who were total whizzes at passing tests, but
get them in a laboratory or any "problem solving" situation and they're practically worthless. Humans need to be
free in order to realize their full potential. Kids need to be allowed to make mistakes and deal with the outcome.
These tiger mothers are turning their kids into mindless robots. You can program a computer to play music or do
math, but creativity and problem solving are the marks of real intelligence.

Notice that anytime you see some Chinese musical prodigy, what music are they playing? It's not Chinese music,
it's Mozart, Bach, or something else from western culture. Whose software (and music, movies, etc.) is it that the Chinese pirate?
How manyNobel prizes have gone to scientists in China?

All that said, there are still too many rotten parents here in America--mainly parents who want to be the kid's
"friend" instead of the authority figure.

[This message has been edited by BigGuyTinyCar (edited 01-12-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Success breeds happiness... no?

Heh, I stumbled this last night, and saved it for another reason entirely.



Brad