After maybe 20 hours of trying, I cannot remove the starter motor. I think the starter was fitted to the engine and gearbox before being dropped into the engine bay, and the only alternative would be to take off the turbo and exhaust downpipe...but the bolts on the turbo are frozen in place, and I am scared to round the heads off the bolts...worst fitting 13mm head bolts I have ever come across. I am now thinking of taking a sawzall to the floor and transmission tunnel, just to get at ONE REMAINING LOUSY BOLT that holds the starter TO THE BELL HOUSING!!!!! Even if I get it undone, it is impossible to get it out without dropping one side of the front axle. Who was it that said people who design cars have never been a mechanic, and therefore don't consider the problems their crappy designwork will create for mechanics further down the line??? ANYWAY.....as a last resort...does anybody own a Haynes manual for a 1998/9 Cherokee 2.4TD? If they DO, can you scan the part explaining how to remove the starter motor please? Although it may not help too much, because this one is RHD, and the steering rod passes slap bang through the area I need to work in GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR... Nick
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06:06 PM
PFF
System Bot
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by fierofetish: Who was it that said people who design cars have never been a mechanic, and therefore don't consider the problems their crappy designwork will create for mechanics further down the line???
I say it just about everyday.
Take a torch to the exhaust manifold Nick, you know this. Heat the area around the bolt orange hot. Then beat a point socket on the bolt. Or weld one on it. And yes the starter was put on the motor before it was put in the engine bay.
Ease of assembly and what is quicker.
Will unbolting one engine mount give you enough room to get the starter out? I have had to do that on something, for the life of me I can’t remember what but I know I have had to do that.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
I'm going to give it just 12 more hours Steve, and if I can't do it, it goes back together, I give the guy his money back, and he can take it away . I'll take a couplke of pics today, to illustrate how impossible this is to do without removing the engine I need to undo the draglink arm and remove it from the car...but we all know they get seized on, and the bolts snap...and then you can't remove the darned thing anyway..and you have just created MORE work and expense, which you are unlikely to get back again If I could get the manifolds off, I might stand a chance...but there again, the nuts and bolts at the firewall end are totally inaccesible. EVERY route that can be taken eventually leads back to the same solution: remove the engine. There are two aluminum and asbestos heat-shields fitted to the starter motor and the exhaust downpipe...and they are impossible to remove without destroying them too. Fitted before dropping the engine in No WONDER I can't find ANYBODY who admits to having been able to remove this blasted thing on ANY Forum!! NOBODY SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SUCCEED!! The only guy who professess to have done it furnished such scant information, and untrue as well, I just don't believe him Nick
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 12-30-2010).]
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05:41 AM
craigsfiero2007 Member
Posts: 3979 From: Livermore, ME Registered: Aug 2007
Did you try hosing all the bolts down with PB Blaster? PB Blaster has been my friend for removing lots of bolts that have been subjected to salt in Maine winters. If PB Blaster doesn't work, I will heat it and try that way and if that doesn't work I drill out the bolt and use an easy out or just drill it out entirely and run a tap through the threads to make sure those ain't ruined.
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05:51 AM
craigsfiero2007 Member
Posts: 3979 From: Livermore, ME Registered: Aug 2007
I did some searching for you Nick. This job sounds like it really sucks. I actually found two different ways to go about it, the first link sounds more cost effective, but I will let you decide because you are the one under it fixing it. But here are the links to them.
Here are a few photos. You can see the turbo, where the four bolts holding it on have totally welded themselves in place , ansd also how the bolts holding the two manifolds on cannot be reached in situ. The starter motor is directly below the turbo, but further back toward the firewall. There is one retaining bolt somewhere behind the solenoid on top of the starter, and the heatshield prevents any access. And I can't get even MY tiny hands up into that tiny space. St5ill contemplating cutting out a section of the transmission tunnel to get at it Nick
Thanks so much for your help, but I found those already Craig The first one is the oine I referred to in my original post as not trelling the truth He made it sound relatively simple, and it AIN'T!! Good luck trying to find that third bolt that is hidden behind the solenoid!! The second one is the one I am trying now...but I can't get the turbo off, and that needs to come off to get access to the manifold bolts. Yes, it DOES suck! Thanks again for your very kind efforts...typical of you, as I have found before Nick
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 12-30-2010).]
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07:41 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Air chisel with the panel cutter, muffler cutter tool. And cut that floor out. I have done it to do gas gauges on jeeps before. No sparks and relatively quick, as long as you don’t hit a frame rail.
Then just rivet or screws are better to seal a flap over the door you create.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Hi Dougal!! And....welcome to the place that survives on our insanity...be it Fieros, or virtually any other vehicle in T/OT
Yes, I managed to get it out, and yes...I had to undo the RH engine mount and slide it along towards the front of the engine bay to be able to take the starter out. I couldn't remove the Turbo, because all the bolts were frozen into their threads, and I didn't want to make even more work for myself by shearing them off. I thought of taking the manifolds off, but you have to remove the turbo to do that...and anyway, somebody had butchered the three lower retaining manifold bolts, so that was out too. In the end, I had to tear the heat shields off the starter and the exhaust downpipe , remove the water pump rear junction plate, and using two extensions, a universal joint, and a 2 inch extension bar, I managed to remove the third, and most difficult of all the retaining bolts for the starter motor. My starter is a Bosch model, S577, with 9 teeth on the dog.... most expensive of them all, I guess...180 pounds including shipping. Absolute robbery, when you consider what they are made up of... just the name Bosch.... Anayway, thanks for the interest...and how about an introductory post here? We have several other PFF'ers in Europe and the UK..( I am in Spain)and it would be nice to learn a little more about you!!!!! WELCOME!! Nick
http://i1083.photobucket.co...epi****itledjpeg.jpg source unknown but gratefully acknowledged. hi again thank you very much for your prompt reply and glad you made it. i was thinking about removing the a/c compressor only 4 bolts .for a bit more access at the top.(for the 1 week a year it might be needed in the uk) the pic shows the little b******r.not mine unfortunately... will post again later. hopefully your post will be valuable as someone who has actually done the job, for the many who will be facing this job with, as you say, very little info, thanks again dougal
OMG?! They made a Jeep Cherokee with a Turbo Diesel???
Is this the same 2.5 that was originally the AMC motor, and the Fiero Iron Duke? I know the normal 2.5 in the Cherokee is the GM 2.5... (or at least was at one point in it's life).
Don't know the heritage of this particular engine Todd, but as Dougal has mentioned, it was used in a couple of other Euro cars too. This one has 120,000 miles on it, and it is, IMHO, a crutless geice of pap And it is barely any more economical than the good old 4 litre gas engine...which I happen to love !! I will NEVER work on one of these again!! NEVER!! Thanks for the extra photo Dougal. About the ' air conditioning pump'....do you mean the brake servo? I see they removed that in the photo, but I don't think they gained much, if anything by doing so.Edit: just looked again, and they didn't remove the brake servo...and that starter motor looks different to mine If they had cut out a 1/2" section of thge engine mounting plate...none of this nonsense would have been neccessary. The starter would have cleared the mount then, and slipped right out, easy peasy BAH! Nick
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-05-2011).]
OMG?! They made a Jeep Cherokee with a Turbo Diesel???
Is this the same 2.5 that was originally the AMC motor, and the Fiero Iron Duke?
No--the original 2.5 "Hurricane" engine in the 84 was NOT an iron duke. It was pure AMC. It was similar, but definitely not a duke vin 4 engine. Intake and starter are on the same side. Distributor on the opposite side. Solvac carburator--no fuel injection on the 84 Cherokee. I had an 84 Cherokee for many years, and I can tell ya, that engine will run circles around a duke as far as reliability, quietness, and everything else. 250,000 miles on it when I sold it, had never had the valve cover off, and still running strong today on a deer lease out in West Texas. Oh, it also used a Ford type "duraspark" ignition, with that module mounted on the fenderwell just like a Ford.
Edit--I be wrong about the starter location--it was on the passenger side too--same as the exh and dist.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-05-2011).]
Nick did you find the solenoid in the way of the top bolt? yes my pic just seems to show the back end of the solenoid ,wierd . i thought perhaps removing the aircon pump would allow a straight run to the ***** top bolt, but re reading your post youve done the same thing by removing the water pump housing,
apparently the vm engine started out as a marine engine, which explaines its lack of accessability when shoehorned into a car. presumably for the export market,unusually it has 4 seperate cylinder heads, to allow for expansion?
i must confess to loving my jeep,the bodywork is supberb,im told they are good for +30mpg,and on a good day goes like a rocket, perhaps im exagerating there, engine and the gearboxes seem to be bombproof ,although ive heard complaints of head/gasket probs. the spec is amazing- air bags, abs,electric seats,metallic paint,aircon,full amplified stereo etc,one of the best 4wd systems around,all for around a grand in the uk.
downside - as youve found many parts are unique to this vehicle so this is unfortunately reflected in the price.oh and the heater can develop problems at this age, involving almost gutting the interior .a huge job.
Nick, i appreciate your time on this and hope to see you again on the forum. regards dougal
Since you are in the UK... Would you happen to know anything about where to find Leyland or Nufield tractor parts or shop manuals?? The pride of my farm, (Leyland) is ill, and they are no longer distributed or sold here in the US..
hi maryjane i will make some enquiries, unfortunately we have lost much of our tractor manufacturing, coincidently i live just down the road from david browns which still has a small facility here. regards dougal
JFYI Don...and maybe it was a typo...but it is NUFFIELD with 2 f's Might make a difference in Googling Nick ---sure does make a difference .... http://www.charnleys.com/ Nick
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-05-2011).]
Hehehe!! It is soooo horrible, I could probably throw it over . Why Brad? It is gutless, certainly not economical, and a pig to work on...other than that....IDK...probably around $800? Nick Dougal...what year is yours? I'm a bit confused about the 4 separate cylinder heads? I've never looked at that, because I have been concentrating on the blooming starter motor
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-05-2011).]
Dougal, I now understand the photo you linked to: the heatshield is still strapped around the starter motor!! That darned thing caused me SO MUCH aggravation trying to get to the third bolt...I dragged and ripped it out in the end...and the heatshield on the down pipe too. After I removed the heat shield, the rear water pump housing and the various tubes etc, I managed to get my tiny hands down under the turbo, and locate the third bolt, and guide a socket onto it, on the end of THREE extension bars and a universal coupling between the second and third extension . I can't get the power wire off the solenoid!!... So I'm just going to wait for the new motor to arrive, and see what it looks like on the new one... Nick
SO....7 days into quitting smoking, and I am faced with removing the nut on the solenoid, which is an impossibility. I managed to get a socket on it at last, and jumped for joy...only to turn the ratchet about 20 times....and find it hasn't come undone! The blasted terminal is embedded in plastic, and the plastic has deteriorated, allowing the whole darned lot to spin! Here is the view : Thank GOD I bought a copy dremel some time ago! Went to the local DIY store and bought 5 cut-off wheels for it, and after much manipulative, cursing, and whatever, I managed to cut through the nut and the stake, and prise off the eyelet from the solenoid. Thjen HAD to jack up the car until the draglink dropped far enough....and dragged that efffffffiiiiiinnnnngggggg thing out!! Now all I need is for the new one to arrive (48hr delivery...now 4 days and 12 hours non-delivery....BAH!!), and put it all back together...and go and get...drunk? Nope...don't drink...smoke a cigar? nope...don't smoke ( )...drag the wife off to bed? Nope....forgotten what to do nowadays( )
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03:56 PM
Finally_Mine_86_GT Member
Posts: 4809 From: Hyde Park, New York Registered: Sep 2006
i think i might put mine off for a while it dosen,t always go into mesh.
if the jeep your working on is well down on power particularly over 30 mph, its a good bet its the no 1 injector, it has a electrical sense needle that controls the turbo etc, easy to check.
pretend its a pontiac...... regards dougal
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01:19 PM
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7497 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
This is going to be one big bill for changing one starter. You started this when? LAST YEAR! 12/29/10 and it is now 1/11/11 and I have seen you saying you already put in 30+ hour and haven’t gotten the thing OUT!
Please tell me you didn’t quote the guy a price already? Because this is going to be a wopper of a bill if you charge him by the hour.
Or is this your?
I hope you get it out before next year.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
hi i have the "factory service manual" for this and basically it says "remove the 3 bolts and remove the starter"........ haynes does not cover the diesel.however the ford scorpio and rover 800 which has the same engine does. im a bit puzzled, as i mentioned before the vm was/is fitted to a large number of vehicles, even im told, black cabs . and yet there dosent seem to be a recognised procedure, or anyone apart from nick whose done this. even on the jeep forums. perhaps the exhaust manifold and turbo could be removed as a unit, but the centre manifold bolt is behind the downpipe and virtually impossibleto get to.
This job is hellish! Steve, if I charged him the hours I have spent, he would have a heart attack. Let me explain Dougal:
There are two ways to do this: Remove the turbo, water pump, RHS engine mount, starter motor. Great!! Sounds simple, eh? Turbo mounting bolts are all seized, so impossible to remove it. Can't get at the exhaust manifold to turbo mounting nuts...because the turbo is in the way! Can't get the manifolds off...because....the turbo is in the way!!! Alternative? Pull the engine...literally!!! UNLESS....... DISCONNECT THE BATTERY CABLES FROM THE BATTERY!!!!
1. Remove all the turbo pipes and tubes, all the water pump tubes and the rear plate of the water pump. Get underneath the car, and remove the oil return tube from the turbo to the sump. Try to remove the exhaust heatshields in one piece...BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Undo the bottom and side bolts that hold the starter in place. Undo the rhs engine mount from the engine, making sure you have something to take the weight of the engine. Slide a 13mm socket on the end of a 10 inch extension bar, onto the third mounting bolt hiding somewhere behind the solenoid and the engine block. Undo the bolt and remove it. Let the starter motor slide out of the hole in the bellhousing, tilting it downwards until you can undo the two wires to the solenoid Once disconnected, jack the front driverside (in a rhdrive car ) of the car up until the draglink from chassis to front axle drops far enough to enable the removal of the starter motor from below.
Now,,,, the reason this has taken me so long is simple. To remove the engine etc would be an expensive job, and futile, IF you could remove the turbo. So I set about finding the cheapest way to get the starter out, and replacing it for the minimum cost to the owner. More fool me I lent him my Renault Kangoo to use whilst his jeep was off the road. First problem was trying to identify the starter motor, as there are at least 5 different ones for this Jeep. I was told the only way to identify it was to remove it, beause the serial number was stamped on the faceplate of the motor. (This subsequently proved to be rubbish!! I could clearly see the number stamped on the body of the starter...but they said this wasn't the correct number!! BAAAAHH"!!!!!!! It WAS!!! So, I couldn't order the new starter until I removed the old one. I undid just about every blasted nut and bolt in view, trying to get it out!!! In the end, I just succeeded out of sheer stubbornness!
I ordered the new motor, and it should have been here in 48 hours. Apparently snow and ice will delay parcels for up to a WEEK It arrived yesterday. I have spent 5 hours today, putting the dagnabittyblastedbasteweredsassfdf back together...and also finished putting up the new water cistern in the basement... I NEED A FREAKING HOLIDAY...and I STILL DIDN'T CAVE IN AND SMOKE A CIGARETTE,EVEN THOUGH ELLIE'S WERE JUST SITTING THERE TEASING ME
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-12-2011).]
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01:57 PM
PFF
System Bot
Finally_Mine_86_GT Member
Posts: 4809 From: Hyde Park, New York Registered: Sep 2006
hi nick as i say i might put mine off a bit. a chance its the ring gear as well,looks like its too big a job for me, unless i can twist my sons arm.
unless you fancy doing another******,dont answer that.
wish i could stop smoking.my daughter who also smokes,in her thirties, shes just been told she got the lungs of a 60 year old.
re the actual starter no, there is i think a 9 tooth, an 11 tooth, i recently put a new water pump on, which could be clock or anti-clock, so i assume the same applies to the starter.which explaines all the different numbers.
while im on, anyone tried these car warrantee companies,how can they possibly cover any eventuality?
in my own case heater repair £1200 as ive said a massive job dash, steering column out plus aircon stuff (ive put this job off as wel)l starter say £500 no 1 injector £400
new engine zillions
nick, thanks for the detailed info, much appreciated, im sure my jeep forum would appreciate it as well would you have any objection to my putting up the link.? regards dougal
Please do! Be my guest With regard to the 'Car Warranty' thing...it works by Law of Averages, IMHO.100.000 take out membership at, say, 100 pounds each. That is a pool of 10 million quid! Now, if only 10% (10,000) actually claim on it, and their average claim is 500 quid...then the company are 10 million minus (10.000x500) 5 million in pocket! And don't forget they probably get a big discount on the bill from the repair shop....and if they get too near negative equity...they will find some reason as to why the warranty system won't pay your repairs.. Nick
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04:07 AM
tutnkmn Member
Posts: 3426 From: York, England, U.K. Living in Ohio Registered: May 2006
while im on, anyone tried these car warrantee companies,how can they possibly cover any eventuality?
in my own case heater repair £1200 as ive said a massive job dash, steering column out plus aircon stuff (ive put this job off as wel)l starter say £500 no 1 injector £400
new engine zillions
nick, thanks for the detailed info, much appreciated, im sure my jeep forum would appreciate it as well would you have any objection to my putting up the link.? regards dougal
1200 for a heater? Wow!
Once upon a once upon I had a Mustang Cobra II (with aircon). The heater core exploded on me and needed to be replaced. The shop manual called for a complete disassembly of the dash board. I decided to locate the approximate position of the core and cut a hole inside the car. I cut through the fibre-glass cover with a die grinder and gained access to the core. Replaced it and packed the area with insulation. Then I screwed a sheet metal cover over the hole and all was well again.
I have little problem modifying a car my way when the design engineers have been arses!
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 01-13-2011).]
yes i have a detailed internal layout of the heater assembly which is nearly the full width of the car, and thought about getting the dremel or angle grinder and removing just the bit with the heater matrix in.which seems to be fairly accessable, or at least cutting a panel in it . tricky stufft to cut thick plastic, anything too fast will turn it into gunge, i suppose a hot knife, or maybe those shears that have a centre blade thingy,
The Cherokee went back to its owner fixed. NEVER to return to darken my workshop doorway again. I can fix other peoples' problems...but I can't fix my Nissan Primera Si... Nick
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...
Because this is going to be a wopper of a bill if you charge him by the hour. 
