Today, Lincoln boarded a train to Gettysburg in 1863 on the eve of his most famous speech, the Gettysburg address. Tomorrow will be the 147th anniversary of his address.
http://www.on-this-day.com/...otd/uscivilwarotd.pl

DEDICATION DAY REMARKS
SOLDIERS' NATIONAL CEMETERY
GETTYSBURG, PA

A Gettysburg Address
November 19, 2008
By Ken Burns

Good morning. November 19th. This day is one of my most favorite of days, a day of possibilities. Indeed, this day is one of the most important and sacred days in our national life. It celebrates the speech that symbolizes the moment of our rebirth as a nation; the beginning of our collective second act as a democracy; the moment when we outgrew the ancient animosities and hypocrisies that had impeded us since our inception; the moment when a handful of carefully constructed sentences altered the course of human events. I am honored-and grateful-that you feel that what I have to say to you today, on such a momentous occasion, is worthy of your precious time and attention. And I thank you in advance for that.

Listen. "The cheek of every American must tingle with shame as he reads the silly, flat, dish-watery utterances of the man who has to be pointed out to intelligent foreigners as the President of the United States." That was the Chicago Times' response to Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. It shows, among other things, that the partisan politics we so bemoan today has been with us for a very, very long time. On the other hand, Edward Everett, the featured speaker that November day in 1863, who by the way, himself spoke for more than two hours without notes, wrote to Lincoln after the tall, thin lawyer man from Illinois had delivered his now immortal address and said, "Mr. President. I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion in two hours, as you did in two minutes."

What is that "central idea" that has animated our imaginations for so long, that pulls us here today, that gives us the possibilities we feel? Why are we still so drawn to this man, this horrific battle and these words that seemed to define us-so urgently-as a people?

In many ways we are ourselves forced back, four score and seven years before Lincoln spoke his magical words, to our founding, and the profound contradictions embodied in the words and deeds of the man who wrote our creed; the man who distilled a century of enlightenment thinking into one remarkable sentence, that famous second sentence the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..." it began. But the man who wrote those words owned more than a hundred human beings, never saw the contradiction, never saw the hypocrisy, and most important never saw fit in his lifetime to free those human beings, and so set in motion an American narrative that has been constantly bedeviled-but also ennobled, particularly now so ennobled-by a question of race. The bloody war that prompted Lincoln to this hallowed spot would not have come had we not ignored "the sleeping serpent" of slavery, as one observer put it, which lay coiled under the table as we started this complicated Republic of ours.

In defense of poor Mr. Jefferson, we are obliged to point out to ourselves that he could have followed the British philosopher John Locke and argued, at the end of that famous sentence, for "life, liberty and property" as the cornerstone of the new government he and others were creating for us. Instead, he left us with a miraculous legacy of restless search when he instead substituted the inscrutable phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." That has made all the difference for us Americans.

Most other societies have seen themselves as an end in and of themselves. We Americans still quest, relentlessly. Not just for a hedonistic pursuit of objects in a marketplace of things, but for a lifetime of learning and self-perfection, happiness to Jefferson and his contemporaries, in a marketplace of ideas. And the key to that mysterious sentence is not the word "happiness" at all; rather, it is the pursuit. We weren't meant to actually achieve happiness, but to pursue it, restlessly, energetically, our whole lives. In a sense, we are a nation in the process of becoming.

And the conscious vagueness of those words, that one sentence, have pulled us inexorably into our future, constantly enlarging as the generations pass what "all men are created equal" actually means. If you had asked Thomas Jefferson to please be more specific, he would have said it meant all white men of property, free of debt. But he didn't, he didn't, and now that phrase means all men and women, men and women of all colors, our vulnerable children, the elderly, the handicapped; and we still debate today the unborn, those of different sexual preferences, and more. More possibilities, for a nation forever becoming, tilting toward a more perfect union.

Abraham Lincoln magnifies as he comes down the ages to us. The momentum of his collected words reminds us, we think, of those "mystic chords of memory" and "better angels of our nature" he tried so hard and so often to summon, the difference between his actual achievements and those we too generously and posthumously bestow on him, simply our collective wish for ourselves. It is interesting that we come back again and again and again to this now distant war and Abraham Lincoln for the kind of sustaining vision of why we Americans still agree to cohere, why unlike any other country on earth, we are still stitched together by words, and most important, their dangerous progeny, ideas. It is altogether fitting and proper that some of those powerful words and ideas of Lincoln's should have echoed at ground zero on the first anniversary of September 11th and amplified our own feeble and yet terribly moving attempts at memorial. We have counted on Abraham Lincoln for more than a century and a half to get it right when the undertow in the tide of human events has threatened to overwhelm and capsize us. We return to him continually for a sense of unity, conscience and national purpose. (That is why we stand together on this cold, cold day.)

We are all constantly moved by Lincoln's ability to reconcile the contradictions that have attended, and at times, indeed bedeviled us since our inception. He never lost sight of what was worth fighting for and what the cost would be; he seemed to instinctively comprehend and then tried to bridge the innate tension between our psychological and civic lives. He gave our fragile experiment a conscious shock that enabled it to outgrow the monumental hypocrisy of slavery inherited at our founding and permitted us all, slave owner as well as slave, to have literally, as he put it here, "a new birth of freedom." New possibilities. Possibilities in the midst of a challenge almost too great to comprehend, a challenge mirrored in the difficult times we face today, a challenge we can not begin to solve without the kind of shared sacrifice, the kind of mystical kinship that Lincoln evoked, that we pay homage to today.

A little more than a year before he gave this address, on September 22, 1862, just five days after the battle of Antietam, the bloodiest day in all of American history, the President issued his Emancipation Proclamation. "If my name ever goes into history," he said with characteristic modesty, ‘it will be for this act." A few days later, at a Washington dinner, John Hay, Lincoln's 23 year old, impossibly young, secretary, noted that, "Everyone seemed to feel a new sort of exhilarating life. The President's proclamation had freed them as well as the slaves." "It was no longer a question," a Frenchman fighting for the North wrote, "of the Union as it was that was to be re-established. It was the Union as it should be ; that is to say, washed clean from its original sin...We were no longer merely soldiers of a political controversy...we were now the missionaries of a great work of redemption, the armed liberators of millions...The war was ennoble; the object was higher."

That December-December of 1862-this gift of a man who was once mocked by his rivals as having almost no political experience, this one-time, one-term former congressman who had recently lost two consecutive senate races, this tall, skinny lawyer from Illinois who had been thrust into the Presidency in the midst of the gravest crisis in our history, understood better than anyone what the stakes were for his fragile Republic, and in his Message to Congress, what we now call the State of the Union address, he said, " The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."

And he went on: "Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history...The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation. We say we are for Union. The world will not forget that we say this...In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free-honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last, best hope of earth."

Lincoln's words and deeds had their deep and meaningful effect; their "higher object." Just a few weeks later, on December 31st, a large crowd of abolitionists, including Harriet Tubman and Wendell Phillips, gathered together in the Music Hall in Boston. At midnight, the Emancipation Proclamation would finally take effect. On the stage William Lloyd Garrison wept with joy beside Frederick Douglass. The cheering crowd called for Harriet Beecher Stowe. She stood in the balcony, tears in her eyes.

At a Washington, D.C. contraband camp, former slaves testified. One remembered the sale of his daughter. "Now, no more of that," he said. "They can't sell my wife and children any more, bless the Lord." On the Sea Islands off South Carolina, federal agents read the Proclamation aloud to former slaves under the spreading boughs of a huge oak tree. As the commander of a new all-black regiment unfurled an American flag, his men broke into song. "It seemed the choked voice of a race at last unloosed, "he wrote.

(In the beauty of the lilies,
Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom
That transfigures you and me:

As He died to make men holy,
Let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Glory, glory hallelujah, etc.)

The Civil War was fought in ten thousand places, from Valverde, New Mexico, and Tullahoma, Tennessee, to St Albans, Vermont, and Fernandina on the Florida coast; at Big Bend, Big Sandy and the Big Sunflower River; from Bunker Hill, West Virginia and Cairo, Illinois to Golgotha Church, Georgia and Christianburg, Kentucky; at Citrus Point on the Cimarron River, and along Cowskin Bottom; at Pebbly Run and La Glorietta Pass and here, in Gettysburg, where armies totaling more than 150,000 men fought over three days, the greatest battle in the Western Hemisphere, leaving more than 7,000 dead, more than 50,000 wounded and a heretofore peaceful town of 2,400 with ten times their number to care for-and to bury; leaving a war weary President with the opportunity to remind his fellow citizens of the possibilities they had-even in crisis; even in a civil war which was tearing his beloved country apart.

Possibilities. It is now our responsibility, in our full awareness of the power of words, specifically these words, spoken on this spot one hundred and forty five years ago today, that we, the living, as the great man said, must re-dedicate ourselves "to the unfinished work which they have thus far so nobly carried on."

We find ourselves today captive again to the forces that threaten the Union, from which so many of our personal as well as collective blessings flow. The dogmas of past are inadequate to our stormy present. We know that the fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor to the latest generation. We sense again that we might be the last, best hope of earth. And we heed the voice of our wise father Abraham, sense through tears of our own joy, a higher object and new possibilities for this our momentous time, and welcome a new skinny lawyer from Illinois into our hearts and prayers. And we concur on this important day, marking the delivery of the greatest speech ever given in our English language, that we, as our flawed Mr. Jefferson said, do solemnly "pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor" to the great tasks-the great possibilities-that lie just before us.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 11-18-2010).]

quote Originally posted by tbone42: In the beauty of the lilies, Christ was born across the sea, With a glory in His bosom That transfigures you and me: As He died to make men holy, Let us die to make men free, While God is marching on.

Something about that verse has always choked me up.

My woman says I'm a textbook sentimentalist. She's right, I guess.

Thanks Doni.. its been one of my favorites as well. It gives me chills when i hear it.

I try to make sure everyone has a real understanding what that war means to who we are today, the people who fought it and for whom it was fought, how when and why. It seems to me God changed the rules every time a person thought they had the war pegged, knew what was going on, and believed they were right. Its the most complex event in American history, and its still being fought.

Historian Barbara Fields says:

"I think what we need to remember, most of us, is that Civil War is not over until we,
today, have done our part in fighting it, as well as understanding what happened
when the Civil War generation fought it .... If some citizens live in houses and
others live on the street, the civil war is still going on, it’s still to be fought and
regrettably, it can still be lost."

Thus, my fascination for the war and educating those who dont know or think they know. I find most people know the glossed-over elementary school version, but don't know too much about why it happened, what affect it had (other than the obvious) and how it shaped and is shaping American culture.

What wierds me out is my own familly history..........how can one brother get so angry with another to be willing to kill him???

I know my bro and sis wont ever=ever agree about anying besides vanilla ice cream..........

I userstand family fights.......but I'm not willing to shoot a cousin over politics,

I just dont understand how civil war could have shot-to-kill against family.............

You amerecinas are wierd...

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 11-18-2010).]

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: What wierds me out is my own familly history..........how can one brother get so angry with another to be willing to kill him??? I know my bro and sis wont ever=ever agree about anying besides vanilla ice cream.......... I userstand family fights.......but I'm not willing to shoot a cousin over politics, I just dont understand how civil war could have shot-to-kill against family............. You amerecinas are wierd...

Oh man! I have been waiting my WHOLE LIFE to answer this question. Are you ready? Many times when family members were on opposing sides of battle in Civil War, they did not know it until the battle was over. Can you imagine the grief finding out your son or brother was in the unit you just crushed on the battlefield?

What makes a family fight on two different sides of the war? Thats complicated, but the easy answer is one part of the family lived in the South, and the North invaded the South. General Lee was the head of the Union army when the Confederate states split from the Union. He saw Abraham Lincoln call for 80,000 troops to invade the south. Lee knew, if he led that army, he would be leading them against his own family, his own friends, and his own state, whose only deserts was living where they lived. He always said he would rather die than raise a sword against his home.

Especially in states in the middle of the coutry like the Carolinas, Virginas and Kentucky and Tennessee, families had members in the north and south. If you were in the northern army, it very well meant at some point you would be attacking a town you had family living in. Rarely did the Confederates invade the north, but when they did, all hell usually broke loose. (See: Antietam, Gettysburg) The South also lost both of those battles.

Thanks for asking MeM, it was a pleasure to answer that question.

Antietam was essentially a draw--about a couple thousand more Yanks died than Rebs. I don't know the exact figures--total was near 30,000 killed in about four hours. It probably would have been a different story had Lee's orders not been found wrapped around a cigar.

Chambersburg was a rebel success but temporary and some incidents notwithstanding, the Rebs acted gentlemanly.

Kaintuck(aka Kentucky) was not a Confederate state but it sympathized with the South. It was taken over by the Union to keep it from going with the South.

Lee's home (Arlington House) was taken over by Yanks and used as a cemetery and eventually became Arlington Cemetery. Mrs Mary Custus Lee was given a wagon to bring her belongings and given a safe pass through the lines to the South.

Yes, MEM, we Americans are a strange breed, eh?

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: Antietam was essentially a draw--about a couple thousand more Yanks died than Rebs. I don't know the exact figures--total was near 30,000 killed in about four hours. It probably would have been a different story had Lee's orders not been found wrapped around a cigar.

Historians claim it as a Northern victory because the South withdrew and did not keep the ground after the battle.. of the 3 fronts, Stonewall Jackson is the only southern commander that did not lose his position. (Big surprise.) Yes, the southerners were gents when they came back into the north, for the most part, except when they sent free black men into slavery into the south where they found them.. that? Not so gentlemanly. Otherwise, there were no town razings like Sherman ordered, and supllies that were seized were given worthless confederate money and promissary notes in exchange.

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: Antietam was essentially a draw--about a couple thousand more Yanks died than Rebs. I don't know the exact figures--total was near 30,000 killed in about four hours. It probably would have been a different story had Lee's orders not been found wrapped around a cigar. Chambersburg was a rebel success but temporary and some incidents notwithstanding, the Rebs acted gentlemanly. Kaintuck(aka Kentucky) was not a Confederate state but it sympathized with the South. It was taken over by the Union to keep it from going with the South. Lee's home (Arlington House) was taken over by Yanks and used as a cemetery and eventually became Arlington Cemetery. Mrs Mary Custus Lee was given a wagon to bring her belongings and given a safe pass through the lines to the South. Yes, MEM, we Americans are a strange breed, eh?

Yup..strange as hell ...As for Arlington...I have a serious doubt that you can find any Canadian troop that wont stand and salute at that place.......

But you guys are still still strange...menthol smokes proves that.

The Spring before Katrina hit Biloxi (2005) , I did a week at the Beau Rivage Casino. While I was there, I visited Jefferson Davis' home on the Gulf. Rick Forte (the director and a classic Motown fan) gave me a tour of not only the buildings but also some of the artifacts they had stored there. They had just completed a 5-year renovation of the main structure. I was heartbroken to hear of the damage caused by the storm. As far as I've been told, they're still rebuilding the main house, Beauvoir. Somewhere around here, I've got a piece of the original wallpaper from the 1860's given to me by Mr. Forte.

I'm not really sure why I'm mentioning this other than the subject reminded me of it.

The most important and special 269 words ever spoke in the history of Western Civilization and the American Civilization.. 147 years ago today.

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 03-10-2011).]

Hello, I really enjoy these American Civil War threads and TBone I have found a new respect for you, while not always agreeing with some of your Political views you do offer a good perspective and solid writing skills. Thanks Norm

Just a good American, like yourself. Gotta know where we came from to see where we are going. Cheers Norm.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 11-19-2010).]

ken, paul and me, on education day. by chance, i happen to be federal this time.
we do these 6 or 8 times a year.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: The Spring before Katrina hit Biloxi (2005) , I did a week at the Beau Rivage Casino. . . . I'm not really sure why I'm mentioning this other than the subject reminded me of it.

Glad you did mention it. I was staying at Beau Rivage at the same time. Was damn glad to board that plane back to KY.

Ron

quote Originally posted by tbone42: Historians claim it as a Northern victory because the South withdrew and did not keep the ground after the battle.. of the 3 fronts, Stonewall Jackson is the only southern commander that did not lose his position. (Big surprise.) Yes, the southerners were gents when they came back into the north, for the most part, except when they sent free black men into slavery into the south where they found them.. that? Not so gentlemanly. Otherwise, there were no town razings like Sherman ordered, and supllies that were seized were given worthless confederate money and promissary notes in exchange.

The old saw that victors write the history applied to Antietam (we'uns call it Sharpsburg). McClellan snapped a draw from the jaws of victory. If he hadn't been so timid and afraid of "Bobby" Lee then he could have been at Antietam Creek waiting for Lee. The Confederates lost the element of surprise, were away from their supply lines and only AP Hill's counterattack saved the battle from being a Confederate slaughter.

I really appreciate your posts about the War of the Rebellion and I admire your knowledge about it. My fascination with the Civil War was in the early '80s.

My interest shifted to the Korean War after attending a meeting of the Korean War Veteran's Association and hearing about the battle of Chipyong-ni. Forty-five hundred Americans in the 23rd Regiment held off more than 35,000 Chinese soldiers in three days of battle(Feb 13-15 1951). An all black 155 artillery outfit fired point blank into the Chinese when the perimeter was breached. The French Battalion mounted a bayonet charge that killed more than 100 Chinese when their line was pierced. A tank column from the 1st Cav Division with an infantry company riding on the tanks broke through from the south. Two medals of honor were earned in that battle and a smaller one about three miles to the south. 4500 Chinese died in that battle and they are still finding Chiense bodies as the Koreans reclaim the area. Of course the Chinese won't claim them.

quote Originally posted by lurker: ken, paul and me, on education day. by chance, i happen to be federal this time. we do these 6 or 8 times a year.

I approve! I have never done a reenactment, but it looks like a load of fun. I will be in Gettysburg on July 2-4, 2013. I'll be looking to charge little roundtop, or at the very least help Pickett in his doomed march to the Union middle..

here are two 1862 diary entries by a federal soldier in the run-up to Fredericksburg. before the war he was a school teacher. He enlisted as a private in august of '61, mustered out as sgt. in '65, and served in Burnside's 9th Corps during most of the war.

Thursday Nov 20th.
It still rained some last night or rather drizzled. In fact there has been very little rain fell yet considering the time it has been at it. About noon our Regt. or all fit for duty were ordered to "pack up". We were then called in line and stood in the rain which by this time was coming down in earnest, probably an hour. We then marched out a road leading to Bell Plain, the nearest landing on the Potomac, about three miles, where we put up our tents in the wet and mud. Lucky for us a couple of haystacks stood not far distant part of which we applied between the wet ground and our wet clothes. It reminded us of Pine Island and our first week on that muddy isle. The rain appeared much colder but we were better prepared for it, and better inured for it too. The greatest of jolity and seeming cheerfulness prevails. I doubt whether there is a Regt. in the service that takes such things with a better grace. When we were coming out wading through the mud and the rain falling quite fast the boys commenced singing old familiar songs which they had learned from the negroes there. The harder it rained the louder they sang.

Friday Nov 21st
I don't believe I slept half an hour last night. My bed clothes and all was so wet and my bones commenced acking that I almost wished for and I was at home. It rained all night and is still raining some this morning. Our mission out here is to repair roads. A wagon came out this morning bringing us two days rations and a lot of axes picks and spades.
The Regt. went out and commenced operations this afternoon. I did not go out, it being optional with me whether I went or not, but kept on a big fire in front of my tent and dried my clothes, blankets etc so that I might have a more comfortable bed for tonight. There must have been at least a thousand wagons passed by this today. The roads are becoming almost impassable. The poorly fed and cared for mules are pulled and pounded till many of them become past going at all, and then they are just turned loose to die.
I saw more heartless cruelty today toward animals of draught than I ever saw before or wish to see again. In the evening Walker brought in some turnips and we has a mess of cooked ones for supper.

Thanks Lurker.. you are an asset to this website and our country. Thats some good stuff right there... nothing better than history from the mouths of those who lived it.

Over 600,000 casualties, if ever war was hell, this one was.

Thanks for posting that, I have never seen many of those imgaes before. And some, unfortunately, are just too hard to watch like the emaciated prisoner from Andersonville. At 2:58, is my 2nd favorite picture from the war with the grave digger and the skulls.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 11-20-2010).]

Abraham Lincoln was a good man, but his presidency was the beginning of the downfall of the U.S. His attacks on states' rights and systematic power grabbing set some pretty dangerous precedents. He was doing what he thought was right, but he was destroying this country. Sound familiar? All this talk about this great nation of democracy is flawed. This is supposed to be a republic...

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: Abraham Lincoln was a good man, but his presidency was the beginning of the downfall of the U.S. His attacks on states' rights and systematic power grabbing set some pretty dangerous precedents. He was doing what he thought was right, but he was destroying this country. Sound familiar? All this talk about this great nation of democracy is flawed. This is supposed to be a republic...

You are correct, one of the reasons he was shot. Jason Lewis has written a very good book on Statesrights and where increasingly their rights have been eroded, for example when a state pays fed highway taxes and the DOT gives back dissaportiontly to other states.

I believe Lee's original plan when he crossed into the North was an attack on Washington to force a negotiated peace on the North or at least give the French and British governments reason to recognize the South and run the Federal naval blockade. Gettysburg was a meeting battle and a huge gamble for him, but victory there would have ended the war. He knew the South couldn't compete with the North in a war of attrition, as was proven later when the North lost battle after battle but eventually smothered the South with men and material. Sherman (I will make Georgia howl) knew that to truly defeat the South he had to break their will, not only the will of their army to fight, but the will of the people. Countries run by committee's do not achieve great things, a collection of States didn't and couldn't have sent a man to the moon, only a strong central government made that and other achievements possible.

Good post grand daddy. Perhaps if Ewell had taken Little Round Top on Day 1 of Gettysburg like he was ordered to do by Lee when it was unoccupied, the war would have ended that very battle. But..there is evidence that the North had a lot of gas in the tank. Perhaps they could have gotten to Washington, but the siege and battle there would have been too costly to sustain in enemy territory, especially considering the heavy artillery that fairly blanketed the washington area. It would have been a hard approach, to say the least.

I like what Shelby Foote said about the North: They fought that war with one hand tied behind their back. Lincoln had the manpower to keep throwing troops at the south, who kept losing men they could not replace in battles. There were tens of thousands of men of service age that were never part of the Union Army in the north. There were hundreds of northern units that never saw combat. Lincoln knew the math, and had the patience.. he just needed to find generals with the will to do the dirty work.. and here comes Grant and Sherman. Grant I will respect because he did not exhult over his enemies, and though Mary Lincoln condemned him as a murderer, Lee said he managed his affairs well and like a soldier. Sherman was seen as murderer and looter who took the hardships straight to civillians. I'm afraid I have to agree with that, but remember, he was the one who said:

"War is all hell." and "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over."

quote Originally posted by Grandaddy84SE: I believe Lee's original plan when he crossed into the North was an attack on Washington to force a negotiated peace on the North or at least give the French and British governments reason to recognize the South and run the Federal naval blockade. Gettysburg was a meeting battle and a huge gamble for him, but victory there would have ended the war. He knew the South couldn't compete with the North in a war of attrition, as was proven later when the North lost battle after battle but eventually smothered the South with men and material. Sherman (I will make Georgia howl) knew that to truly defeat the South he had to break their will, not only the will of their army to fight, but the will of the people. Countries run by committee's do not achieve great things, a collection of States didn't and couldn't have sent a man to the moon, only a strong central government made that and other achievements possible.

Actually, LtGen Jubal Early made a raid on Washington rather late in the war to divert Union troops from Virginia. Lincoln stood tall at Fort Stevens to watch the battle and the Union was lucky that the Rebel sharpshooters weren't accurate that day. The raid was a case of initiative taken too late and the belief that who holds the capital will win the war. Lee's move was brilliant and he chose the one general who could make it happen. Stonewall Jackson was dead by that time.

"Two Soldiers" - Traditional, arranged by Garcia and Grisman

He was just a blue-eyed Boston boy
His voice was low with pain
I'll do your bidding comrade mine
If I ride back again
But if you ride back and I am left
You do as much for me
Mother, you know, must hear the news
So write to her tenderly

She's waiting at home like a patient saint
Her fond face pale with woe
Her heart will be broken when I am gone
I'll see her soon I know
Just then the order came to charge
For an instant hand touched hand
They said "aye" and away they rode
That brave and devoted band

Straight was the track to the top of the hill
The rebels they shot and shelled
Ploughed furoughs of death through the toiling ranks
And guarded them as they fell
There soon came a horrible dying yell
From heights they could not gain
And those that doom and death had spared
Rode slowly down again

But among the dead that were left on the hill
Was the boy with the curly hair
The tall dark man that rode by his side
Lay dead beside him there
There's no one to write to the blue-eyed girl
The words her lover had said
Mom, you know, awaits the news
She'll only know he's dead

Yes Washington would have been a tough battle for the South, but Lee was in the same boat as Yamamoto. He knew he could win battles for a few months, then the weight of a large industrial base would come in to play and defeat would be inevitable, an attack on Washington would hopefully give the South access to French and English supplies, and allow a negotiated peace before the North's industry began to produce war material. In the same vein, Japan wanted to knock out the entire Pacific Fleet in two decisive blows then negotiate a peace agreement allowing them full reign in Asia. When that failed defeat was inevitable.

These lyrics by Crosby, Stills and Nash send chills up my spine every time I read or hear them sing it. It is relevant to the Civil War and all other wars our brave men and women have fought.

Daylight Again/Find the Cost of Freedom by David Crosby, Stephen Stills and Graham Nash

Daylight again
Following me to bed
I think about a hundred years ago
How my Fathers bled

I think I see a valley
Covered with bones in blue
All the brave soldiers that cannot get older
Been asking after you

Hear the past a' calling
From Armageddon's side
When everyone's talking and no one
Is listening
How can we decide

Do we find the cost of freedom
Buried in the ground
Mother Earth will swallow you
Lay your body down.

Saturday Nov. 22nd.
Col. Leasure came out to see us today and asked us if we wished to be relieved. We told him no - I believe nearly all would rather be out here even if we do have to work some than in the crowded camps. It seems a little like our picketing on Port Royal Island. The news from Fredericksburgh today might be thought of interest but we pay little attention to it. Our pickets and the Reble pickets still keep each their own side of the river. They are said to be quite saucy of their late victories both at South Mountain and Antietam. They also asked us how we liked Jackson and Stewart? They offered to exchange tobacco for coffee but our men told them we had plenty of both and if they would come over we would (give) them some. Gen. Burnside sent in a flag of truce yesterday demanding them to surrender but they didn’t consider themselves under his orders and would do as they pleased about it. He gave them to this morning to either surrender or leave before he would shell the town. All the batteries were ordered to be in ready by day light but for some reason which I did not hear the order was countermanded. We have certainly the advantage in an artillery duel across the river. Gen . Lee is said to be in command with his entire army. I still doubt it, and if he is I hardly think he will fight over the city but let us over and thus save much valuable property, besides getting us in an better place to whip us than where we now are. The rains seem to be over for the present; today was quite clear and pleasant. We worked on the roads today making corduroy roads by putting in poles from four to six inches in diameter and throwing a little dirt on them. If we only had plenty of tools and would all work we could make a power of roads. We number about 400.

Sabbath Nov 23rd.
Some of our boys played rather a sharp trick on a wealthy old native last night. They were out through the day and saw that he had a large flock of turkeys and as he was of Secesh proclivities they proposed that they should send a guard to his house that night. He thanked them for the suggestion.
When night came three or four slipped out with guns and proceeded to the house. The old man was very particular about giving them their instructions when a half dozen more made their attack on the fowls. The old man flew around saying to the guard "If you were sent here as guards don’t let them take the turkeys". The guards replied "Oh, that's what we came for, to guard you while the rest took the turkeys". The thieves, guards and a flock of eighteen or twenty turkeys all made their exit about the same time, leaving the old Secesh to ponder over Yankee tricks and curse the Union soldiers.
This morning we moved toward camp again, stopping several times to fix bad places in the road. The day was quite chilly and we had no religious exercises at all. I fear if the weather continues to get colder we will be deprived of these pleasant useful meetings.

Monday Nov 24th
There was a great stir in the neighboring camps this morning and a rumor was offered that we were soon to commence operations against the Reble city. They still refuse to surrender and possibly will continue to do so until they are burnt out. Quite large camps can be seen on the hills opposite the city. The forces here are said to be commanded by Gen. Longstreet. Jackson is said to be in our rear in the vcinity of Leesburgh and Warrington. Gen. Lee is said to be at Richmond and has been appointed to Commander in Chief. We have another rumor, that is McClelland is going up the the James River with a force sufficient to take Richmond,. Still another that Mobile is taken by our men. If the half we hear was only true we would have great reason to cheer up and take courage. Our hope is in God, yet we have the means, and as Napoleon once said "the largest cannon generally wins". A great deal was done last winter by our Naval force and we will certainly have at least four times the amt of gun boats and last winter's experience to help us this winter. So we now appoint till Next Fourth of July to finish up the war and return home.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: Thanks for posting that, I have never seen many of those imgaes before. And some, unfortunately, are just too hard to watch like the emaciated prisoner from Andersonville. At 2:58, is my 2nd favorite picture from the war with the grave digger and the skulls.

The thing that young Americans should take from the Civil War, is two fold. No matter what happens in America, we have been through much worse in time, and have overcome. Second however, is that at times our disagreements can lead to this.

EDIT: The song in that video is the same song that they played in your video as well. I've known how to play this song on my violin since I was just a kid. I don't know where I learned it, why I learned it... but I'd love to know what the name of it is. I think I remember watching something on PBS (hahah) and heard that song, and then started playing it on my violin and just never forgot. It is very "period."

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: Abraham Lincoln was a good man, but his presidency was the beginning of the downfall of the U.S. His attacks on states' rights and systematic power grabbing set some pretty dangerous precedents. He was doing what he thought was right, but he was destroying this country. Sound familiar? All this talk about this great nation of democracy is flawed. This is supposed to be a republic...

I take offense to this, both because Lincoln was the man who essentially created the Republican party, and started the long history of civil rights movements by the Republicans. I hate to get into this argument again, but let's specifically remember what the states rights were that we disagreed upon. I know there was a basket of issues, but a prominent issue among them was the right of slavery. I'm versed on the history, and I know the quotes from Lincoln, so save your time.

I have a slew of family that fought in the Missouri 23rd for the Union Army, and am proud of their history, just as Southerners should be proud of theirs as well.



------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 11-23-2010).]

The name of the song in the first video with all the civil war images is "Ashokan Farewell" by Jay Unger. It was the also the song we came together down the aisle at in our wedding. It will also be the song they play when I am finally laid to rest.

You heard the song on "Ken Burns' Civil War" which could be the greatest documentary of all time. It's over 10 hours, and took longer to film than the war took to fight. I recommend you watch it again as an adult, the only true undertsanding of who we are as Americans is by understanding what the Civil War did to our country, both good and bad things. This is the most comprehensive and accurate account of that war. It is about the most enjoyable thing I have ever witnesses, and you will be surprised by some uncommon Civil War knowledge in it, including how the South was demonized as a slavery-only cause to that war, when it was just plain untrue. Answers are much more complicated then we were taught in school. (And Columbus did not discover America either..) I fear you may lose respect and gain respect for Lincoln at the same time, for things you just never knew about him. He was a very complicated man.

I own it on DVD.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 11-23-2010).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I take offense to this, both because Lincoln was the man who essentially created the Republican party, and started the long history of civil rights movements by the Republicans. I hate to get into this argument again, but let's specifically remember what the states rights were that we disagreed upon. I know there was a basket of issues, but a prominent issue among them was the right of slavery. I'm versed on the history, and I know the quotes from Lincoln, so save your time. I have a slew of family that fought in the Missouri 23rd for the Union Army, and am proud of their history, just as Southerners should be proud of theirs as well.

I'm not interested in the things Lincoln said. He could have said he was Jesus come down from the cross. The fact is that he far exceeded the powers afforded him by the constitution. The FACT is that the states were given the right to secede and then denied that right. The FACT is that he set terrible precedents as president. He wasn't a bad guy. By all accounts he was a great man. He just wasn't a very good president. Slavery was horrible, and it should have been abolished. It should have been abolished LEGALLY. Also, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was only a tool, it wasn't out of the kindness of his heart. Slavery could have been ended in a peaceful, legal manner. All the other civilized countries of the world managed. Had the Confederate States of America been left alone as they should have been the US and England and all the other nations of the world who were opposed to slavery could have used economic sanctions to end slavery. The states had the right to secede and that right was trampled upon as soon as it was exercised.

Yes, it's unfortunate, but Lincoln did not write the EmProc until a year and a half into the war, and it freed no slaves in the north. At all. It only said that those slaves in the south willing to rise up could be freed It took the 13th ammendment to do actually free all slaves. In the meantime, Kentucky, Maryland and a few other states in the North still had legal slavery. It was a political tactic to demonize the South in the eyes of Europe. It worked.

Indeed, this action was only after the real prompting of Frederick Douglas, who called Lincoln a "First rate second-rate man" (meaning he was angry with Lincoln for not freeing all the slaves in the North and South then and there). My favorite Lincoln quote: "If I can win the war without freeing a single slave, I would. If I could win the war by freeing all the slaves, I would. And if I could win the war by freeing some slaves and leaving others in slavery, I would do that too." In other words, he was not concerned with the morality of slavery as much as he was concerned with winning the war. If you want to give anyone credit for starting the civil rights movement from that era, it would HAVE to be Frederick Douglas, whom without the tireless efforts of, lincoln would have never even wrote the emancipation proclamation. Lincoln also did not create the Republican party, he was just their first presidential nominee.

Additionally, Lincoln invaded the South and waged an illegal war against the southern states. He authorized the attacking and killing of people he still considered his countrymen.. and in at least that action, should we not take him at his word? Those who fired on Fort Sumter could have been individually dealt with, but attacking the South and everyone in it also guaranteed comple disenfranchisement by every civillian in the south. Attack my family even though I did nothing to you? Jjust because where I live? I fear if I lived in the south, I would be fighting because the North was coming in and destroying the houses and farms of my friends and families. Not to mention killing them. One southern soldier who owned no slaves was captured and asked "Why are you fighting?" His answer was "I'm fighting because you're down HERE." Which was competely valid.

Now did the Southern States have a right to break away? Their argument was "We joined willingly, we should be able to leave willingly" And Lincoln was of the opinion the Union must be perserved, even at gunpoint. General Longstreet later evoked a sentiment found commonly across the south: "We should have freed the slaves, THEN fired on Fort Sumter." So at least then Northern propaganda could not hurt the war effort and alliance with England and other european countries.

Intreresting fact most people don't know: The Confederate Constitution was nearly identical to the actual constitution, and one of the few diferences was that it OUTLAWED the international slave trade forever and all time. It took the 13th ammendment to do that to our constitution, and at the end of the war. We can coulda-shoulda-woulda, but within 30 years, technology had advanced enough it made slavery completely impractical and obsolete. Unfortunately, many scientific advances came about precisely because the war happened... so we just never will know.

Isn't it funny all the confusion over something that happened so long ago? No simple answers to the hows, whens and whys of that war.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 11-23-2010).]

i dont buy the "technology would have made slavery obsolete" argument. it was eli whitney's cotton gin and mass production that made slavery profitable.

In the 1890s technology had already been developed that picked cotton.. it was clumsy and shredded a bit, a process that did not get PERFECTED until the 50s, but within 30 years of the end of the war a method already existed that did not involve hand picking. Since then (the 50s), nobody picks cotton by hand. I guess the point I was making was within a single lifetime, picking cotton by hand was no longer done. I am sure oppressive slave owners of some sort could ALWAYS find something for slaves to do, even today.

I actually know a man who's first job was handpicking cotton, and he's about 87 right now.. but he told me there were already horse drawn and tractor drawn machines that did a lot of the work. He lost his job when they perfected that technology. From what he tells me, it was not much of a fun job to have, so you can imagine how slaves felt having to do it for 16 hours a day for free.

He's a preacher now, but retired.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 11-23-2010).]