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Today and Tomorrow in Civil War history by tbone42
Started on: 11-18-2010 02:38 PM
Replies: 105
Last post by: JazzMan on 08-08-2011 07:40 PM
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Report this Post11-24-2010 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
dont be forgetting john c fremont!

i worked with a woman who is a bit younger than me (so maybe 50-55) who grew up picking cotton by hand, so that would have been in the 1960s. granted, these people were poor dirt farmers who wouldnt have been able to afford slaves had they been legal.
it wouldnt surprise me if certain businesses could make a good profit in semiskilled slave labor today.

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Report this Post11-26-2010 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
Tuesday Nov 25th
Death rides on every passing breeze
and lurks in every flower.
Each season has its own disease,
and peril every hour.
Henry Boosel has been a little unwell for a few days; but did not complain much and but very few know anything of it till about dark last night when he suddenly took quite bad. I helped to remove him from his tent into the Capt. marquee where we had more room to attend him. Both our surgeons appeared to do all they could, but it was of no avail. He was entirely deranged and could not speak but appeared to suffer extremely. Working in a kind of spasm from dark to midnight. In the after part of the night and this forenoon he appeared to rest some easier but life was still "slipping away".
About three o’clock the breathing stopped and nothing was left but the lifeless body. What a lesson this sudden death should teach us! How uncertain is life! How certain is death! How often are we warned to prepare for it; and how little attention we give to these warnings. God first warns us by his word and now he has repeated that warning of his providence to us by striking down one of our most healthy comrades. "The time is short, the season near, when death will us remove; to leave our friends, however dear, and all we fondly love". "My soul attend the solemn call. Thy earthly tent may quickly fall and thence must take thy flight Beyond the vast expansive blue to love and sing as angels do or sink in endless night".
O: Lord -
Teach me to live that I may dread the grave as little as my bed; Teach me to die, so I may rise, glorious, at the awful day. Henry's brother John of the 134th happened to be here and saw him die. He will remain to see him buried.

Wednesday Nov 26th
This morning was wet again. In the forenoon we were reviewed by Gen. Sumner and in the afternoon we paid the last tribute of respect to our deceased comrade. We had no boards to make a coffin so he was buried in his blanket. Mr. Brown conducted the religious exercise by reading the 20th Ch. of Rev. and singing the 23rd Psalm. His exhortation was earnest and the prayer quite affecting. An important lesson has now been taught us; God grant that we may lay it to heart.

Thusrday Nov 27th
The reports now are that the rebles are largely reinforced on the other side of the river and are putting up earth works to the rear of the town.
This is the day appointed by the Governors of the Northern States as a day of Thanksgiving. I expected we would have had services but we were ordered to move our camp and consequently did not have any. We moved back further from the river in the woods with a warmer location and more convenient to the fuel. If we remain long here, we will clear out a good deal f land not only of fences but of timber of all kinds.
Tonight in my tent we read 27th Ch. of Deut. and sang the 60th psalm ??? version. I still love my hymn book and although I think much more of the old Psalms than I used to I would like very much Mr. Brown would use some hymns in our evening worship. He confines our singing to too few selections.

Friday Nov 28th
A good many from the 134th have been visiting us for a few days back, and a great many of our boys have been visiting them. They are camped about three miles from here. As a Regiment they are a good deal unhealthy, much more so than we are. They are also very tired soldiering and many of them are quite homesick. Capt. Bentley went to see them today. I was down at the river opposite Fredericksburgh today. The Reble pickets were on the opposite shore of the river but the city appeared to be nearly deserted. I could see the smoke of the large camps back on the hill to the rear of the city. I also could see fresh earth thrown up - some think they are evacuating but I could see no signs of it. The longer we stay the more I am thinking their forces are large and that they intend to stand firm. The rail road to this place is now fixed so the cars arrived this morning for the first with a load of provisions.
The pontoon bridges are now here so as soon as sufficient stores are accumulated we may expect to advance. Gen. Lee is said by deserters to be here in person. Jackson is still up in the valley.

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Report this Post11-30-2010 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
Saturday Nov 29th
Walker and I went to the 37th Regt. today and saw our neighbors Jas. Martin and William Guiher. They both looked quite well but lonesome. They wish they had come out with us.
In all the Regts we have visited I think the men in ours are the most cheerful and contented. There appears to be more jollity and fun going on in our camp and less thinking and longing for home than any other Regt I have seen. Home sickness unless it is among some of the recruits is entirely played out.

Sabbath Nov 30th.
There was an inspection and review of this Brigader this morning by Col. Leasure. I do not see any necessity for such things on the Sabbath, and am glad to hear that President Lincoln has issued orders both in regard to keeping the Sabbath and profane swearing.
The military laws in regard to both these things are very good if they were only put into effect. We had Brigade services today conducted by the Chaplains of the 36th and 45 Regts. Mr. Brown is unwell and was unable to attend - I fear he has been exposing himself too much of late.

Monday Dec. 1st
Cold bleak December once again finds us soldiers with but poor provisions to face the Storm King which must soon come. Some of the boys are building little houses with fire places. It is amusing to see how many little habitations can be made, each with a particular form or particular advantage peculiar only to itself. Much as I dread cold weather I would rather keep moving and doing something to close up the rear than to lie inactive. I would willingly forego all the hardships of a winter campaign if by doing so we may get home to enjoy the fruits and pleasures of peace next summer.
I really do think if our land and Naval forces would only do all in their power we can at least give the entire South one pretty thorough wiping and cleaning out 'ere the leaves appear in the spring. I think a great many of our Generals are beginning to feel that their only hope to keep peace with the Rail Splitter and retain their commands is to be in earnest and work with vigor. I see by some orders lately issued that inactive do-nothing Generals are not likely to be considered dear. Gen. Burnside has arrested the parties having the delivering the pontoon bridges here.
We have a story in camp that a lot of rebles crossed the river the other night and took three hundred of our men prisoners. Gen Hooker whose command they are in had their Colonel arrested - took his sword from him and dismissed him from the Service. Strictness and discipline appear to be orders now, and I hope the orders shall be rigidly enforced. We have orders to drill now daily.
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Report this Post11-30-2010 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
Good stuff lurker. Appropriate to the dates, I finally noticed. (I am a bit thick at times) I am enjoying reading these. I would have never made it in the Union army.. I swear like a trucker who recently left the navy.
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Report this Post11-30-2010 07:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
well, the title is "today and tomorrow...
the diaries actually start in fall of 61, but since someone brought up burnside and fredericksburg...

the diarist was a staunch presbyterian who attended religious services at nearly every opportunity, belonged to several tract societies, and regularly condemned cursing drinking, smoking and gambling, though he would occasionally loot books from an abandoned seccesh home. by contrast, the 79th NY with whom his regt. were brigaded had a well-earned rep for cussin, drinkin', fightin, and chicken-an-hog-stealin'.

i figured i'd keep posting through the actual fight at fredericksburg.
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Report this Post11-30-2010 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
i enjoy sharing this stuff.

in about 95 i did a series on my BBS titled "today in the Atlanta Campaign"

in 96, transcribed a WW2 vet's experience in the Pacific, excellent description of the battle of leyte gulf

in 98 i corresponded with a korean war vet, helped him organize his documents, persuaded him to publish his account. got a free book out of that one!

about 2000 started transcribing the current set of CW diaries(4 years worth), finished about 3 years ago. life interferes, y'know?

i've been CW reenacting for 10 or 12 years. got into it by accident because i wanted to understand the soldier's experience. it's not all running in the field shooting blanks, there's a lot of living history and education days, and a lot of "junk" history.

i'm an associate member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. to my knowledge i have no confederate ancestors, but they promote history so i help them. no, i don't always agree with them. if there was a union bunch nearby, i'd join them too.

i was a grad student at MTSU studying, of all things, American CW History, but was unable to complete the program.

as always, i urge all veterans: no matter how prosaic or mundane, write it down. even if it's camp life, it's history.

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Report this Post11-30-2010 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageClick Here to Email normsfSend a Private Message to normsfDirect Link to This Post
Hello, this is great stuff, for a lack of sufficient command of English subtleties. Thanks Norm
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Report this Post12-04-2010 09:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
Tuesday Dec. 2nd
We hope to get our pay now soon. The payrolls have been sent back to C. Commanders to be signed. Money will be of very little use to us here for we cannot get anything we want, even if we have the money. I think sutlers will soon find us. Mr. Brown is still unwell but our evening meetings are still held before his tent, conduced generally by Major Dawson.
The major, unlike many high officers, always finds time to be present at Prayer meeting and all his conduct shows marks of a true Christian soldier. He made some very good remarks this evening on "influence" and requested each who is in the habit of attending these meetings to try to influence more to attend. Mr. Cline also spoke of the benefits of very frequently holding intercourse with God, with one another, and with our own souls in such meetings. Just as we were being dismissed, an old man stepped forward and voluntarily offered up a short touching prayer - also pronounced the benediction, then introduced himself to the Major as Chaplain of the 29th Massachusetts Regt. Their Regt had moved into our vicinity today and the Chaplain had been attracted here by the singing.

Wednesday Dec 3rd.
Nothing worth noticing today. The day was chilly and cool. The usual camp talk, rumors and surmises, debates and discussions on public measures "nothing to do" lossers(?) around the different cook fires. One rumor and subject of talk today is that Burnside has been removed and Gen. Hooker put in command - another important rumor is that Gen Hunter has asked and is to have all his old troops taken back to South Carolina again - Some believe it and some disbelieve it. Some hope it is so, and others hope it is not so. There is also not a little talk on the President's message. It is considered by many to be the greatest production of the age; and with the exception of Job's writings has never found its equal in past Literature. I do really think if the Southerners wish to preserve their Peculiar Institution they had better come to Lincoln's terms. We had Prayer meeting this evening conducted by Mr. Strang. He made some very sensible remarks on being on God's side, and having him on our side.

Thursday Dec 4th
Today Uncle Sam stuck a lot more of his greenbacks at us - four months' pay. They appeared very welcome visitors although as yet I can’t see what good they will do us here and I know of no way of getting any home except by mail or by sending checks to New York. The mail is said to be quite uncertain but I will risk mine and if I lose it, it will not cost me anything for checking.

Friday Dec 5th
I went to Falmouth today to get a few things but found the stores crowded and selling things at four prices - vis. butter 66 cts cheese 40. common coarse boots $8.00 Do Fine $12.00 common cotton handkerchief 50 cts small silk ones $1.00. I went into a house and bought a doz dozen little cakes 30 cts. Fully three times what they should be but I suppose they can not be baked here much cheaper. The flour cost $28 per barrel. The woman I bought from came over the river from Fredericksburgh yesterday. She has a son over there in the reble army; but by her talk she has no very strong wishes for success to the reble cause. She wishes strongly for peace thinks a great deal of Burnside Said he looked so pleasant she would like to kiss him - about noon it commenced raining and towards evening turned to snow. Very unpleasant soldiering.
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Report this Post12-07-2010 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
Saturday Dec 6th
This morning is stinging cold. Some of the boys have built chimneys at the end of their tents and can make them pretty comfortable. If it continues cold a few days longer and there is no orders to move we will have to get at and build little houses. I still think it is not the intention to lie here all winter and if it is we will have to be scattered out more so as to get wood more convenient. It is getting quite scarce just around here.

Sabbath Dec 7th
This morning is still colder than yesterday - the coldest we have yet had. Walker and I were compelled to go to the woods and cut wood and build a fire at the end of our tent. A chimney has to go up to survive if we can possibly get some mud to daub it - The fires were all kept going today and such a smoke I never saw. The wind kept shifting around so it was impossible to get out of it. About noon we got orders to be ready to go on picket at three o’clock. It will be very cold, especially if we have to do without fire. Although I am excused, I feel as though I am a good deal abler to go than many others, and will endeavor to do my soldiers duties and with my fellow comrades share the hardships. Picketing here is not considered dangerous. Both sides lie and look at each other in very short range. yet neither are allowed to show any disposition to fire. Very different from what it has been in some other places.

Monday Dec 8th
It was right smart of cold last night; as a Virginian would say but to correspond we kept on a right smart of fire. I never put in many more comfortable nights on picket than last night as we made it - although strict military rules might censure us - about all we done was to borrow an axe from a house near by and as we were in the woods with plenty of young hickory and white oak we had a pretty big fire all night. The rumors today are that all the states have come into the Union again except Va. and South Carolina and they offered to come in too if we would replace the rails we have burnt.
The pickets (contrary to orders) still keep up considerable conversation across the river - although neither side tells much which is of any military importance. Late in the evening we were relieved, marched back to camp and recd. a small mail. We get a mail now about every other day but it still don’t come very late - mostly a week on the road.

Tuesday Dec 9th
Nothing worth noting is going on as far as war is concerned. Everything still quiet in front. Some think we will winter here and not make any move till Spring but I think Gen. Burnsides will act Napoleon a little more than McClelland did last winter. Will not stop for snows muddy roads or Reble batteries either.
I think the Rebles have changed their camp or moved back further from the river. Some think they are evacuating but I am afraid if we were to go over, there would be enough left to give battle. Burnsides has been fooled so long waiting on the pontoons and good shells that the rebles have had a good time to prepare for him.
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Report this Post12-09-2010 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
Nice collection of rare civil war portraits from the Library of Congress:
http://www.flickr.com/photo...s/72157625520211184/

Way too many union pictures... my only complaint

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 12-09-2010).]

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Report this Post12-09-2010 04:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tbone42:

Nice collection of rare civil war portraits from the Library of Congress:
http://www.flickr.com/photo...s/72157625520211184/

Way too many union pictures... my only complaint




Thanks...


I personally don't have an issue with the union pictures.

Here is my great, great, great, great, grandfather:

Union Army Captain Watson E. Crandall, Company G of the Missouri 23rd





Captured at the battle of Shiloh and imprisioned in Richmond, VA... was parolled, and went back to his command and fought again.

His son Egbert Crandall enlisted at 15, was kicked out when they realized his true age, re-enlisted again at 18, fought for the remainder of the war. He also fought in the Spanish American war too.


------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-09-2010).]

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Report this Post12-09-2010 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TDirect Link to This Post
I live in Virginia, right in the middle of the Wilderness Battlefied at that. I;ve been hee 20+ years and just don't get it? Why do so many people love to fly the rebel flag, here dress up like rebel soldiers and cellebrate a war fought in support of support of slavery? And don't tell me it was about 'State's Right' , yeah the right to own a person. If I were born here I sure would not be proud of that fact that my Great Grand Daddy fought for the south.
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Report this Post12-09-2010 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Francis T:

I live in Virginia, right in the middle of the Wilderness Battlefied at that. I;ve been hee 20+ years and just don't get it? Why do so many people love to fly the rebel flag, here dress up like rebel soldiers and cellebrate a war fought in support of support of slavery? And don't tell me it was about 'State's Right' , yeah the right to own a person. If I were born here I sure would not be proud of that fact that my Great Grand Daddy fought for the south.

this is a very complex question, and deserves a clear answer, much longer than anyone can give in an internet post. but consider this: politicians start wars for one set of reasons, and the soldiers fight for another. usually, in order to reconcile these two sets of reasons, the politicians lie. at some point the soldiers figure it out, but usually by that point they've invested too much, so they rationalize it to make their sacrifices worthwhile. i think that about sums it up. any further questions?

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Report this Post12-09-2010 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
That war was being fought for a year and a half before slavery became the official reason behind the actions of the North. Even according to the north, who should be taken at their word, it was for union. Historian Barbara Fields said it best when she said that unimaginable slaughter for the reason of "Union" had become unacceptable. There had to be the adoption of a higher reason, a nobler cause mid-war.. thus slavery became the issue but not the cause, but only after almost 2 years of carnage.

Now, you ask why southerners fought in that war? Because the north for the most part was the aggressing army, and peoples home were destroyed and livelihoods lost simply because they lived in the south, even some that did not own slaves. One southern prisoner was asked by his captors: Why do you fight this war, you do not own any slaves? His answer was "Because you are down here." And it was completely valid. Most soldiers who lived in th esouth fought for the south because they were defending their homes from Northern invaders like Sherman, who destroyed anything in his path. He did not stop and ask if they owned slaves, he just left a trail of chimneys behind in his wake. (Which was all that was left of houses when they burned down.)

So ask yourself, was the war only about slavery if it had been fought for so long without an emancipation proclamation, which freed no slaves in the north at all? There is more to it than slavery, although the reasons include slavery. If I lived in the south when the war was happening, I would have fought for the Confederacy because they were defending my home, my family, and my state...not because I believe slavery was right (It wasnt) The soldiers were not defending slavery, as most southern soldiers never even owned a slave. They were defending, as they would have told you, their right to be sovereign from northern aggression.. otherwise why would lincoln need to raise 80,000 troops to invade the south when only one Union position had been aggressed against? No, he was going to bring all states in the south back into the union, and slavery had little to nothing to do with it.. as Lincoln himself has said if he could end the war without freeing a single slave, he would. I will say his stance on slavery certainly lead to uncertainties in the south for reasons that Lurker listed, but once invaded, what choice did a southerner have but to defend their home?

I think people fly confederate flags in your neighborhood because they are proud of their ancestry and heritage. What kind of people would we be if we had to condemn the lives of ancestors who came before us because of a cause voiced by the North that did not even exist when the war started?

Yes, its complex.

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Report this Post12-09-2010 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
here are 2 articles from tennessee newspapers, one by a US congressman from tennessee, the other from the secession convention of the state of mississippi.

Supplement to the Nashville Union and American, Jan 9 1861 (EXCERPT)
Address of Hon. John V. Wright of Tennessee to his constituents
Washington D.C., Dec 28, 1860.
Fellow Citizens: The distracted condition of the country and the relation I bear to you are my apologies for addressing you at this time. The difficulties and embarrassments attending a public discussion on the floor of congress, and the length of time that would necessarily intervene before I could address you through that channel induce me to seek this method to express my views on the duties and interests of Tennessee in the present alarming crisis. The time for the profitable discussion of many preliminary questions has passed. It is no longer useful to discuss the relations existing between the States and the Federal Government, and the right which each of the States may possess to remedy aggressions already made or attempted to be made upon them by the Federal authority, or by citizens of one State upon another. Neither shall I endeavor in this letter to exhibit to you the blessings of the Union, nor the evils which many suppose will inevitably flow from a dismemberment of the Confederacy.
Questions rendered far more practical by recent events now present themselves and stand out before you as great and startling facts, and demand your serious consideration.
When I say that amid all the trials and troubles which have surrounded the confederacy since Tennessee became a member thereof, her people have been sincerely desirous of upholding the Constitution and upholding the Union, and that since I have represented you I have most fully concurred in this sentiment, I but express a fact which is well known to you all, and when I affirm that our noble State has ever been faithful and loyal to all her obligations to the Federal Government, and true to her devotion to the rights and honor of all her confederate sisters, I do but justice to her fame and history. Tennessee and Tennesseeans are in no wise responsible for the condition of affairs as now existing. I know that you have been devoted to the Union. The world knows that you have been forbearing and conservative, that though in common with your sister States you have seen and felt the aggressions, unwarranted and unconstitutional as they were, of your sister States of the North, nevertheless you have borne them with patience, hoping that time and a sense of returning justice would heal your injuries and secure peace and fraternal concord. You have in deed and in truth evinced an honest desire rather to “bear the ills we have than to fly to others we know not of”.
I know, and all the world knows that you have desired to save the Union. I would yet preserve it, if it could be done on principles of justice and equality and without surrendering the vital rights of my state and people as guaranteed by the Constitution. In this sentiment I know I have your concurrence. When I parted with you a few weeks ago, though dark clouds were hanging over us, I had not entirely despaired, and I came here hoping (faintly I confess) that something could be done to avert a disruption of the Confederacy and at the same time preserve the Constitution and thus preserve the rights of the Southern people.
I had hoped that though the abolitionists had succeeded in electing Mr. Lincoln as their President, yet, seeing the dangers in which they had involved the country by their sectional warfare, they would pause in their career and give us some assurances that our rights would be respected. In this I have been mistaken. Congress has now been in session for nearly four weeks. A gloom dark and dreary has been hanging over this city and over the country for two months, and yet no word of promise or of hope has been heard from the camp of abolitionism. A sullen and portentous silence has invaded their camp, save when Mr. Wade and Mr. Doolittle and their confederates have broken that silence by threatening to visit the South with fire and sword, and reduce your brethren who have taken precautions to provide for their own safety to the condition of conquered provinces. Soon after the assembling of Congress, Southern men in the Senate and House of Representatives moved to raise committees to take into consideration the dangers of the country, and to try and avert the evils of disunion and civil war.
Mark you, fellow citizens, these movements to reconcile difference and difficulties were not inaugurated by men of the North- from that section whose people have by their course of conduct brought on this crisis- but by men from the South, who are and have been throughout this whole controversy the injured parties. Propositions for settlement have been submitted to these committees, embracing all the various causes of disaffection, and yet up to this good hour no proposition in the least manner calculated to do justice to the Southern people has received the countenance of a single Black Republican. Upon the contrary, every offer has been treated with scorn and contempt, until even the most conservative and honest men have lost all hopes of receiving justice from the Black Republican representatives.
What do Southern men claim as their rights under the Constitution of the United States?
1st They claim a right to enjoy equally with the people of the North the settlement of the common Territories of the United States, and the right to carry with them their horses, cattle slaves and other property, and to enjoy it without molestation on equal terms with their brethren of the North. This Mr. Lincoln denies them and though his speeches and platform declares that the people of fifteen states who did not vote for him shall not have equal rights with the people of those States he voted for him.
2nd The Southern people think it would be unjust and unwise to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, because it originally belonged to Maryland and Virginia, which States were, and are yet slaveholding States. And because slaves would thereby be set free in the midst of a servile race, greatly endangering the peace and safety of the white population without in any manner improving the condition of the negro, and because it would be in direct violation of the spirit in which the District was ceded to the Federal Government. Notwithstanding this, and in the face of the fact that all parties have refrained from intermeddling with this District, Mr. Lincoln and the Black Republican party up to this moment have stubbornly refused to give the people any assurances that he will not as soon as possible after his advent to power, entail upon the people of two slaveholding states, the evils, continued and sustained by the full power of the Federal Government, of a free negro population, and upon the country the calamity of an example which may prove most disastrous in the end.
3d. The Southern people claim that the clause in the Constitution which provides for the delivery to the master of runaway slaves shall be faithfully and honestly carried out.
Mr. Lincoln and his party, though two months have elapsed, have given us no assurance that this shall be done. Upon the contrary, his party in the North have used every means to defeat this just right. Many of the States through their Legislatures have made it criminal to obey the Constitution, and have thus added willful and deliberate perjury to bad faith. It would not be doing injustice to the party which elected Mr. Lincoln to say that they do not regard the Constitution nor their oaths; and that in their fanatical eyes perjury is a virtue if it aid them in defeating their known sworn obligations to the Constitution of the Country. Though the honest Union-loving men of the North have constantly warned the abolitionists of the inevitable results of their unconstitutional acts, yet we find State Legislatures, as if to add to the insults and wrongs of the South, contemptuously refusing the evils we complain of, and boldly defying us, when we are only seeking in a proper way to heal the difficulties which threaten the Confederacy with destruction.
4th. Southern men do not believe that negroes are or ought to be on an equality with the white race, nor do they believe that the men who made the Constitution intend that they should be equal. We have been taught by history and experience that the white race is superior and must necessarily control the black race whenever and wherever the two races come in contact. We have seen the white race constantly progressing in intelligence and power, whilst we have seen no evidences of progress in the negro, except when he has been under the control and direction of the white man, his master and superior.
Here, and again, Mr. Lincoln is against us. He believes that all men--negroes and white men – are, politically, socially, and morally, equal. He has said in substance that if the Declaration of Independence means anything, it means that, and hence that we are to infer that, if he has his way, and you submit to his rule, you are to be placed on an equality with the negro as has already been done in many of the States which voted for Mr. Lincoln for President.
Are you prepared, then, to have the negro set on our juries, represent you in your legislatures and in Congress, marry your daughters and in all things be the equal of yourselves and your families? I will not insult you by leaving this question unanswered, and yet I do not exaggerate the facts when I tell you that in many of the States which voted for Lincoln and Hamlin. Thing have well-nigh progressed to this point, and abolitionism would bring you to this condition if it were only permitted to get a foothold among you. I know you would scorn such a state of things; yet such is the condition to which ambition, urged on by abolitionism, would reduce you.
5th. The Southern people believe that the existence of African slavery in fifteen or more States of the Confederacy is not inconsistent with the continuance of the Union. They believe that African slavery, instead of being a curse, is a blessing both to the negro and the white man. They believe God in His providence has allowed this as a means of civilizing and Christianizing the African, who in his native country is a heathen and a barbarian, enduring slavery of a far more miserable character than is even conceived of in the Southern States. Mr. Lincoln, on the contrary has declared that he “hates slavery as much as any abolitionist and that this Government can not endure permanently half slave and half free.” He is, therefore, committed to the policy not only of abolishing slavery in the District of Columbia and all the Territories, but in the States themselves and when the negroes are once free his for placing them on perfect equality with you and your children. I need not attempt to depict to you the horrors of such a policy. History is full of warnings, and St. Domingo, with all its bloody scenes, rises before you. In the event of the success of this scheme, either you and your children must inevitably be exterminated or you must redden your hands in the gore of massacred millions. These doctrines are the principles of Mr. Lincoln. In his zeal for the negro he has lost sight of the white man. He has a wonderful sympathy for the poor negro, forgetting the wants and sorrows of the poor white men, who black his boots and drive his carriage and work his lands. He cannot endure to see a negro work for a white man whilst he has no pity upon the poor white man, who, under the pressure produced by his own sectional party, is suffering for the want of bread. He shuts his ears against the cries of poverty in his own cities of the North, and relieves his conscience by destroying the Union on account of the condition of well-clad and well-fed negroes a thousand miles from Springfield. On these doctrines Mr. Lincoln stands to-day, and though State after State is seceding from the Union, and star after star is disappearing from your flag, on account of these unconstitutional and destructive doctrines, Mr. Lincoln wraps himself in solemn silence, and allows his authorized organs to proclaim to the world that abolition must rule, though liberty perish.
…..

Nashville Weekly Union and American, February 10, 1861.
A Declaration of the immediate causes which induce and justify the secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union, reported by Mr. Clayton of Marshal, from Special Committee to prepare a Declaration &c.
In the momentous step which our State has taken in dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the products which constitute by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. The blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principle had been subverted to our ruin.
That we do not overstate the dangers to our institutions a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.
The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well known ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory. The feeling increased until in 1819-1820 , it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France. The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico. It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses that protection on the high seas, in the territories, and wherever the government of the United States has jurisdiction. It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union and seeks to extinguish it by continuing it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion. It tramples the original equality of the South underfoot. It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain. It advocates negro equality socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst. It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice. It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists. It seeks not to elevate or support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better. It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings and the weapons of destruction to our lives. It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system. It knows no relenting or hesitating in its purposes. Its tops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or pause. It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unholy schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.
Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation,. And to the loss of property worth four millions of money, or must secede…

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Report this Post12-09-2010 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Francis T:

I live in Virginia, right in the middle of the Wilderness Battlefied at that. I;ve been hee 20+ years and just don't get it? Why do so many people love to fly the rebel flag, here dress up like rebel soldiers and cellebrate a war fought in support of support of slavery? And don't tell me it was about 'State's Right' , yeah the right to own a person. If I were born here I sure would not be proud of that fact that my Great Grand Daddy fought for the south.


Just so I'm clear... my g,g,g,grandfather and g,g,grandfather faught for the Union. Viva Missouri 23rd!!! hah...


 
quote
Originally posted by tbone42:

I think people fly confederate flags in your neighborhood because they are proud of their ancestry and heritage. What kind of people would we be if we had to condemn the lives of ancestors who came before us because of a cause voiced by the North that did not even exist when the war started?

Yes, its complex.




Putting all the reasoning for the war aside... I think everyone should be proud of what their parents have done... unless of course one of your family members was responsible for killing Lincoln... I hesitate to mention it, but there is a Booth lineage in my family's tree... I haven't attempted to really dig down that path. Did I mention my g,g,g,grandfather and g,g,grandfather fought for the Union Missouri 23rd?

Anyway, that said... I live in Cooper City (as you can see to the upper left). It's right next door to Davie, FL. If you're unaware of what Davie, Florida's history is... type in "KKK" and "DAVIE, FL." You will find some unfortunate matches. Basically, it was the former KKK headquarters of the South East (or whatever...) for many many years. We have quite a few people down here who fly the rebel flag on the back of their trucks. Unfortunately, the ones who typically fly it, are often the ones who are also trying to suggest something. I'm not saying everyone is like that... and I'm not even suggesting the flag represents that... but MANY of the people who DO fly that flag (today) in places like Davie, are representing something else.

Regardless... the Union and Confederate armies were made up of Americans. I'm glad the South lost... because I would hate to think the United States would not be a union today. Perhaps it was a war that needed to be fought. I know it must have killed people to know that they were fighting their own brethren. I can only imagine... realizing of course that the revolutionary war had just taken place less than 100 years before. I'd imagine how the children of the revolutionaries must feel seeing that.

Anyway... total side note... I wonder what it must feel like to be German and have grandparents who were NAZI soldiers... can you ever be proud of your family's heritage knowing what they did? I'm glad I don't have to worry about that.


------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

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Report this Post12-10-2010 01:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
Today in 1864:

"Uncle Billy" completed his march to the sea and arrived in Savannah Georgia and began the fight to take the city. On December 23rd, Savannah was conquered. The taming of Georgia complete, he set his gaze on South Carolina, where secession began.


I love this picture.

http://ngeorgia.com/ang/William_Tecumseh_Sherman

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Report this Post12-11-2010 09:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
Wednesday Dec 10th 1862
The camps present a very busy and business appearance these days. The "Army Robbers" commonly called sutlers are bringing in loads of goods which they are selling very rapidly at enormous prices. As many as can get tools are busily engaged in fixing up their little houses and putting chimneys to them so as to be more comfortable. We had anther inspection today and fitting out of what clothes are needed. Also three days' rations are ordered to be cooked. The bridge builders have orders to go to work three o'clock in the morning to put pontoons across the river. I suppose Burnsides is going to try to cross but I fear the results. One half our number can keep us back.

Thuesday December 11th
This morning before daylight we were awakened by a couple of heavy shot from cannon. I think by the sound they are from gunboats - I hope we will have plenty of them to assist us. If we only had the old Wabash with her forty guns. Dear Pity the Reble Batteries- Just as we were eating our breakfasts about a half hour before daylight cannonading commenced in earnest and just at daylight several heavy vollies of musketry were fired. Then followed near after roar of artillery. I think I never heard the like of it before. At sunup we were in line with 60 rounds of ammunition and three days rations also our blankets. We leave our knapsacks behind. The morning was quite cold but Old Sol came out very bright and clear and changed the hard frozen ground to mud. Large bodies of troops from the rear kept coming up till the whole vast plain was nothing but a live map of soldiers ornamented with the glittering Steel of bayonets. It was a grand sight to any who could get moving around to see them but our orders were to remain by our arms ready to move at a moments notice. Thus we with thousands and tens of thousands of others lay listening to the roar of artillery, within a mile of the conflict and getting to know nothing of what was accomplished or doing on either side - save that several times we could hear the sharp crack of rifles and also learn that our engineers were several times driven from their work on the pontoons. Just before sundown loud cheering was heard down at the river which intimated that something is accomplished. Soon the news comes - the pontoons are completed and our troops have possession of Fredericksburgh. Shortly the order to move came and our Division was marched toward the river, but just when the front reached the river, the order was countermanded and we were marched back again to our old beds and fire places again. Where we were today we could see but little, but we saw some pretty large fires in the city. The day was unusually calm or the whole city would no doubt have been burnt. I judge it is pretty badly used up anyhow. Our orders tonight are to be ready to move again by daylight. Tomorrow will very likely be the great day of the war. Some think the Rebles have evacuated and their main force is gone only leaving enough for a rear guard. I can’t see why they occupied the city and suffered it to be destroyed without giving us a little more trouble in crossing. They no doubt have pretty strong works back on the hill behind the city. If we get them as easily as we got the city we will come off pretty safe. The rumors tonight are that Gen. Franklin is across 14 miles below and Gen. Seigel is crossing ten miles above. If these rumors are true then we have the Rebles notwithstanding their breastworks in a pretty tight place.
Banks is said to be near Richmond and is to strike there at the same time Burnsides strikes here. The 134th and in fact all of Hooker's Division are lying here and will probably cross tonight. Gen. Wilcox is reported killed, but I think it is false.
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Report this Post12-19-2010 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
sorry, guys, had to go to florida on short notice. here's the last bit, as promised.

Friday Dec 12th
This morning as soon as it was light we were in line and quite early crossed the river and formed a line of battle on the shore below the city. Our pickets are only out a short distance. Of our loss yesterday I have not heard. Not over a couple of hundred, mostly of the engineers and of the Regts first sent over to drive back the sharpshooters. The city is entirely destroyed. What escaped the flames are so badly torn up and riddled by our artillery that the buildings will be past repairing. Although we are under orders to remain close to our arms and be in line at the word attention, a great many are running all through the city seeking for plunder. There as been a great deal of stuff left notwithstanding the long delay before the attack. The boys are cooking fish and baking cakes - flour appeared to be quite plenty. The greatest thing is tobacco. Of this there has been a big supply. When our troops first arrived it was expected we would take the city at once. Speculators in the city had laid in very large stores of this costly article expecting when our troops arrived to realize a handsome profit by selling them the tobacco. It appears that Gen. Lee smelled the rat, and had the principal ??? of it--- amounting to twenty or thirty thousand dollars worth thrown into the river. Our boys are now fishing out the boxes, very little damaged and peddling it around to others giving as much for 25 cts as the sutlers have been selling for $2.00.
I obeyed orders and remained at my proper place with the exception of once going into a house nearby and getting a couple of books. One the title "The Power of Prayer" by Rev. Prime, editor of the N. Y. Observer. It gave a history of the commencement and influence of the Fulton St. Prayer Meetings. I found it to be very interesting. About one or two o'clock I was sitting and reading in this book when all at once the Rebles pitched a shell in among us causing no little confusion among two or three regts who had their arms stacked just behind ours. One or two men were killed and a few others wounded. One of the 20th Mishigan who was lying beside where I was and i believe was reading on my book was struck by a fragment of the shell and considerably wounded. Our boys did not seem to mind the whizzing intruders much, and strange to say Although they continued to come for several minutes, most of them passing over our heads and planting into the river and quite a number bursting over our heads and wounding several of other Regts. we did not have a man hurt. James McCune had a hole knocked into his canteen and one or two others made very narrow escapes. Who knows but this is as great an instance of the power of prayer as any of which I have just been reading? Not only are our friends praying morning and evening for our safety and preservation, but we ourselves have been meeting every evening to implore the Great Captain to lead us in safety. There was very little fighting done today.

Saturday Dec. 13th.
Last night we were marched up into town, stacked arms in the street and quartered in the houses. It appeared to me to be a very imprudent move to fill up the city with troops when the Rebles could open their batteries and not only cause great confusion but destroy many lives. They could hardly have thrown a shell anyplace in the city without killing some. The most of our Co. occupied the lower story of a frame building where we would have been pretty safe as far as shell was concerned. This morning we were taken out below the town nearly half a mile where we lay concealed behind a battery all day. There was a very heavy fog so the fighting did not commence very early but when it did commence which was about nine or ten o’clock it seemed to be in earnest. There was very heavy fighting on both sides of us, but we were so fortunate as not to be called into action. On our left it was one continual roar both of artillery and musketry. We could not see but from the noise and cheering it was a hard contested fight. On the right we could both see and hear and I should think it would almost compare with the great battle of Antietam in fierceness. The Rebles had all the advantage and I fear our loss is very great - much greater than theirs. So far it appears to have gained nothing. Several attempts were made to storm the earthworks but without success. From where we were we could distinctly see line after line advance up the hill but about the time they would get in short musketry range the Reble infantry would pour in a galling fire and this in conjunction with a cross fire of grape and canister from numerous batteries proved too much even for our brave troops and they would be compelled to give back. At repulse a fresh line of Reble infantry would come up and cheer and relieve their predecessors. Late in the evening about dark and even for an hour after the fight raged furiously. It was a grand and terrific sight to see the many flashes of artillery musketry and bursting shells. It is a kind of fight above all others I never wish to be in. If we ever have to fight I hope it will be in daylight. Those who fall wounded tonight will probably have to lie on the field till morning. It is a very fortunate circumstance that the air is quite warm for the season.
I did not lay down till quite late thinking I would hear the news or result and casualties of the day. The news from the left is both bad and good. We have lost a great many men. Gen Jackson is dead and the Pa. Reserves are badly cut up, but we have succeeded in turning the Rebles right and the flanking of an enemy is almost a sure sign of victory. I have listened anxiously all day to hear of Seigel coming in on their left but I am beginning to fear he is not here at all. I read a good deal today in my book "The Power of Prayer" and feel much benefited. I think God is for us, and if we could only throw aside our many personal and national sins and then call on God to help us we then might have strength to surmount all difficulty and bring the war to a speedy conclusion.
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Report this Post02-14-2011 03:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
The Rebel Yell- What did it sound like? This is as close as we can get, modeled after and example given in 1935 by a 90 year old CSA veteran. Late in the recording comes a model created to sound like a whole company giving the rebel yell:


Now, can you imagine thousands of charging Johnnys screaming that at you on the run while charging? Its no wonder in the Seven Days many green Union troops dropped their muskets in fear.

And here's a grainy film of the 75th anniversary of Gettysburg, where the remaining union and confederate veterans gathered to recognize and celebrate the deeds in battle from their youth. If you listen closely at the end of this short segment, one of those old confederate soldiers gives the yell and another man in gray tells you what it is.

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Report this Post02-14-2011 10:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for starlightcoupeSend a Private Message to starlightcoupeDirect Link to This Post
I am surprised you (and I) didn't post REL's 202nd birthday last month. But you're a Yankee and I understand.
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Report this Post02-14-2011 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for htexans1Click Here to Email htexans1Send a Private Message to htexans1Direct Link to This Post
The viewpoints about the war of northern aggression in Texas are slightly different.
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Report this Post02-14-2011 03:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by starlightcoupe:

I am surprised you (and I) didn't post REL's 202nd birthday last month. But you're a Yankee and I understand.


Sorry, I missed everything Civil War for the last 2 months.. last night I finally decided to start posting again after finishing "Stars in their Courses" by S. Foote. I have to take breaks from the war now and then to keep it fresh and fun.

Although birthdays are important, it has never been something I have kept too close of track on.. it was the civil war events themselves that I like to highlight- their actions. Everyone is born, but these men truly lived. Lee's birth was not nearly as fascinating as his death.. calling out for AP Hill in delirium, and his final words. Good stuff.

I have been busy and had taken a break from the posting, and so Marsh Robert's b-day suffered as well. Its too long and convoluted of an answer to post here, but "Yankee" does not apply to me. As far as being a "yankee" I may live in the north, but my family is half from the south. In fact, I share a common ancestor with Marsh Robert, although I am not descended from him. My blood comes from Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio and Indiana. "Yankee" is as much a state of mind as a location, IMHO.

I understand all too well that war was fought for 2 years before the issue of slavery was thrust forward as an excuse for all the bloodshed. Not saying that ending slavery was wrong.. you could not get more right.. but the CSA's first act should have been freeing the slaves.. and not only would Europe have sided with them, but they would have had a lot more soldiers to defend their home from the invaders. But history had to sort that whole situation out in blood, and God punished all for complicity in slavery.. north and south.

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Report this Post02-14-2011 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by htexans1:

The viewpoints about the war of northern aggression in Texas are slightly different.


Slightly different from what? What viewpoint presented is contrary to your perceptions?

I think history has done a fine job pointing out all the things that have led up to the war and how it went and how it changed... there is no simple answer, the truth of the war, its causes and effects, is quite complicated. The real problem is the interpretation of the war through modern eyes of everyone. We didnt live it, and we use our modern morays and sensibilities to judge people who died a hundred years ago or longer. The main cause of the war, in my eyes, has always been the stubborness and inability compromise on both sides. (Sounds like some of the problems we are having today as well..)

I would love to discuss your views if you want to share them.. you should know by now I am rarely critical of the viewpoints of others, although I do receive a bit of flack for my own opinion from time to time. I dont get to talk to many people about this, and there really are not wrong answers, but there are some general misconceptions that can be disproved through historical data. Lets hear it! This could be the most intersting conversation I have had all year.
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Report this Post02-14-2011 04:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for starlightcoupeSend a Private Message to starlightcoupeDirect Link to This Post
I was just joshing with you about REL's birthday. Your profound comment about Lee's death is spot on. "Strike the Tents" is so much more meaningful than "Its a lovely day in the neighborhood."

htexan's comment was more than likely meant in jest but growing up, I heard a totally different story than probably told in the North. My old great aunt Grace was a young girl during Reconstruction and she told stories of rape, pillage, plunder, summary killings, forced evictions, etc by Northern troops. She died in 1944 when I was six and while I don't know her dying words, I am sure they weren't complimentary about Yankees.

I read about your bout with sleep apnea. Hope you're doing better. I have it and use a CPAP machine--I hate it but I'd rather use it than die or suffer oxygen deprivation to the brain.

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Report this Post02-14-2011 04:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for starlightcoupeSend a Private Message to starlightcoupeDirect Link to This Post

starlightcoupe

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Sorry--my stupidity at work again.

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Report this Post02-14-2011 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by starlightcoupe:

I was just joshing with you about REL's birthday. Your profound comment about Lee's death is spot on. "Strike the Tents" is so much more meaningful than "Its a lovely day in the neighborhood."

htexan's comment was more than likely meant in jest but growing up, I heard a totally different story than probably told in the North. My old great aunt Grace was a young girl during Reconstruction and she told stories of rape, pillage, plunder, summary killings, forced evictions, etc by Northern troops. She died in 1944 when I was six and while I don't know her dying words, I am sure they weren't complimentary about Yankees.

I read about your bout with sleep apnea. Hope you're doing better. I have it and use a CPAP machine--I hate it but I'd rather use it than die or suffer oxygen deprivation to the brain.




Oh no, thats legitimate. Some Northern soldiers absolutely decimated the South, particularly those who worked under "Uncle Billy". I dont like that any more than you do.. it sickens me that crap happened. And the other part that gets me is northerners who said they were "freeing the slaves" and in the meantime they themselves committed atrocities against the very people they were "saving".. in other words rape, robbery and murder of southern blacks by Northern troops. The argument many enlightened in the north had was "How can they want their own rights preserved while denying rights to others?" And that is also legitimate, except that many northerners in that war ALSO denied rights to blacks.. as well as women. In fact, legal slavery existed in the north until war's end.. so how can that be their "cause" with such apparent hypocrisy going on in states like KY and MD?


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Report this Post02-14-2011 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for htexans1Click Here to Email htexans1Send a Private Message to htexans1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tbone42:


Slightly different from what?


Why the "Yankee" viewpoint of course. Remember, History (and schoolbooks) are written primarily by the "victor." Many of my cousins do not see the "Yankee-viewpoint" as entirely accurate. While they see the "slavery issue" as paramount for the war, many Texans see the war of northern agression as a states rights issue, and at least a couple see it as a federal government putting its nose where it does not belong. Sounds like today huh?

Feel free to ask other southerners what their viewpoint is about the war. You'll see its different from what Yankees see it as.

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 02-14-2011).]

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Report this Post02-14-2011 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by htexans1:


Why the "Yankee" viewpoint of course. Remember, History (and schoolbooks) are written primarily by the "victor." Many of my cousins do not see the "Yankee-viewpoint" as entirely accurate. While they see the "slavery issue" as paramount for the war, many Texans see the war of northern agression as a states rights issue, and at least a couple see it as a federal government putting its nose where it does not belong. Sounds like today huh?

Feel free to ask other southerners what their viewpoint is about the war. You'll see its different from what Yankees see it as.



On history being wrote by the Victor... I believe we have thousands of books written on the subject by southern authors. The dope thing about our country is our first ammendment right, and many many alternate views of history's greatest subjects. Certainly, schools try to give the one-size-fits-all explanation of things. So yes, if you accept your grade school explanation of the war and look no further, then the flawed explanations for the war is all you know. However, to be truly knowledgable on any subject, you must force yourself to read between the lines. I hate the idea of slavery, and could have very easily accepted what was taught at face value.. but my love of the conflict and the study of it allowed for more in-depth explanations of the situation. Besides that, if every southerner had been an evil slave lord, why would we have let them rejoin the union and not just destroyed them outright? (Which, if you have seen the numbers, could have EASILY happened with enough time and dedication..) Southerners had to feel the shame of defeat because they lost the war, but the real truths are still out there for those who want to look.

As you already may have noticed, I live in the north and dont believe the war was truly slavery-centric until after 1862. Even journals from northern soldiers during the time point that they were not particularly fond of "fighting to free the slaves" and a whole Illinois Union unit went AWOL, declaring they would "rather lay in the woods until moss grew on their backs than risk their lives to help free the slaves." I read Shelbey Foote and other southern authors on the subject to get the perspective you speak of in Texas.

Although, as I said before, the outlaw of slavery may not have been the issue that started the war, I am damn glad its banned for all time now. The 'cause' may be lost in confusion, but the end result, at least to me, was satisfactory in that regard. However, the federalizaton that occurred as well was, to me, less than desirable. States rights were destroyed, and that was unfortunate. The fact is the south let themselves be boxed in by their least desirable aspect, and the propaganda value of that in the north was too great for Lincoln to any longer ignore... he was a politician, after all.

I dont believe Columbus discovered America, either.. maybe for the European Kings and Queens.. but Vikings AND native americans were here long before that. I find that most elementary education is dumbed down to get the point across, but rarely explains alternative point of views in spite of historical evidence. We are obligated to dig deeper on all subjects we want to truly understand. I dont think I would have it any other way.. now I can say "I have knowledge because I seek it" not because it was served up on a silver platter for me to accept and reiterate. If there was one simple explanation to why it happened, there would be no need to research and it would be quite boring to learn about.
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Report this Post02-15-2011 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanClick Here to Email uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanDirect Link to This Post
..I am so proud of My dead rebellious veteran relatives,who served in the confederate Army only my USMC service is more important to me,not one ever owned a slave,they fought for the rights of thier home land ,,The stars & bars are an American Flag ,an honored battle flag,unfortunately now we have many that would slam any thing American .
..Lincoln was our 2nd greatest President like him or not,only Washington who is the Father of our Country, is the greater servant of America ,There would be no America with out George Washington,,.NO MAN GAVE MORE!!
LEE was the greatest American General,no other comes close .not Patton or any other.
Even if Lee had listen to Longstreet at Gettysburg, the cause was lost,when the Army of Virginia surrendered there were very few men around each regimental flag
..There was only doubt about the outcome of the Civil War the first year,after the first year,, the barefoot hungry cheerful killer peasant soldiers of the south were doomed by the overwhelming population of the North ,and the abundance of Northern supply.

..I saw some of that Rebel spirit in the Marines ,now sadly it is diminished ,shamed by many,just another sad day for America
..I still have the American flag I carried with me in the Marines ,I have never owned a rebel battle flag,I will now Buy one, and fly it proudly because of the disparaging comments here,
In my only bayonet charge ,I have heard the Rebel yell ,, we carried the day with deadly enthusiam
I am an American,but I stand proudly with my Southern Rebel bretheren,a strike at them, is a strike at me..
..I have heard so many slam america, slam the American military,slam our heritage ,screw you!! Look me up and say it to my Face,,,Im a rotund 70 years old in another 14 months, ,Avengador says I would not hurt a fly,, try me!!
..
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Report this Post02-15-2011 12:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysClick Here to Email twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
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[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 02-15-2011).]

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Report this Post02-15-2011 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
Brad is one of my favorite people on this website... he rocks and everything he has done for Kris has impressed me greatly.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 02-15-2011).]

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Report this Post02-15-2011 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysClick Here to Email twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post02-15-2011 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
Brad is a Civil War buff, too... he's researching the capture of New Orleans by Gen Ben Butler as we speak.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 02-15-2011).]

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Report this Post02-15-2011 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
We've all had bad days, but of course there's no reason to fight another civil war over it. Back to the discussion!

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 02-15-2011).]

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Report this Post02-15-2011 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysClick Here to Email twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tbone42:


Now tell me why you have to destroy this thread for your own amusement.. because I cannot see any other reason why you are posting that crap.


Your right, I'm wrong, posts deleted.

All apologies sir.

Brad
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Report this Post02-15-2011 02:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

..I am so proud of My dead rebellious veteran relatives,who served in the confederate Army only my USMC service is more important to me,not one ever owned a slave,they fought for the rights of thier home land ,,The stars & bars are an American Flag ,an honored battle flag,unfortunately now we have many that would slam any thing American .
..Lincoln was our 2nd greatest President like him or not,only Washington who is the Father of our Country, is the greater servant of America ,There would be no America with out George Washington,,.NO MAN GAVE MORE!!
LEE was the greatest American General,no other comes close .not Patton or any other.
Even if Lee had listen to Longstreet at Gettysburg, the cause was lost,when the Army of Virginia surrendered there were very few men around each regimental flag
..There was only doubt about the outcome of the Civil War the first year,after the first year,, the barefoot hungry cheerful killer peasant soldiers of the south were doomed by the overwhelming population of the North ,and the abundance of Northern supply.

..I saw some of that Rebel spirit in the Marines ,now sadly it is diminished ,shamed by many,just another sad day for America
..I still have the American flag I carried with me in the Marines ,I have never owned a rebel battle flag,I will now Buy one, and fly it proudly because of the disparaging comments here,
In my only bayonet charge ,I have heard the Rebel yell ,, we carried the day with deadly enthusiam
I am an American,but I stand proudly with my Southern Rebel bretheren,a strike at them, is a strike at me..
..I have heard so many slam america, slam the American military,slam our heritage ,screw you!! Look me up and say it to my Face,,,Im a rotund 70 years old in another 14 months, ,Avengador says I would not hurt a fly,, try me!!
..


Great post Stan, hearing the Rebel Yell in battle.. thats awesome! I agree with you about Lee.. no general was more knowledgable.. and I believe if he had Stewart where he needed to be at Gettysburg, he would have won that fight, too. And if Jackson was alive and leading his brigade instead of Ewell, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Little Round Top on the first night of battle, which Ewell refused to do.

Thanks for contributing.. and when you get that Confederate Battle Standard, post a picture here!

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 02-15-2011).]

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Report this Post03-01-2011 01:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
I found this to be fun, interesting, and historical. It's Uncle Bill! And he was one of the veterans featured in "The Civil War" by Ken Burns in the last epsiode.
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Report this Post03-01-2011 01:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post

tbone42

8387 posts
Member since Apr 2010
It's the beginning of March, and armies were on the move. New month, New Avatar. Say hello to Marsh Robert.


Today in Civil War history.. they were busy.

1861 - Texas was accepted as a state by the provisional government of the Confederate States of America. Texas' secession from the Union was not official until the next day.

1864 - Union General Hugh Johnson Kilpatrick arrived at the outskirts of Richmond, Virginia. Colonel Ulrich Dahlgren was killed while trying to rejoin Kilpatrick. (Kilpatrick-Dahlgren raid)

1864 - U.S. President Lincoln nominated Ulysses S. Grant for the newly revived rank of lieutenant general.

1865 - General Thomas Rosser set fire to a bridge along the middle fork of the Shenandoah River. General George Custer's troops charged across the burning span and extinguished the fire before the bridge was destroyed.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 03-01-2011).]

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