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Ok, so the EPA just approved using more ethanol in gasoline... what will this mean? by 82-T/A [At Work]
Started on: 10-13-2010 04:36 PM
Replies: 42
Last post by: avengador1 on 12-29-2011 07:34 PM
82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post10-13-2010 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
As I understand it, most gas pumps "can" have 8-10 percent ethanol mixed in with the regular gas. I know that horsepower is reduced ever so slightly, but with the extra 5-7% ethanol, it can cause other problems. As I understand it, it's not a big deal for normal cars that are driven daily, but when allowed to sit, it can attract water in the fuel tank, and even goes bad in significantly less time than gas did just 5 years ago.

What do we do in our collector cars, especially when they often don't get driven but maybe once or twice a month? With my VW Bus, I've had the same tank of gas in there for over a year... I just don't drive it that much.

Should I install a drain screw in the fuel tank???

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
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Report this Post10-13-2010 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacDirect Link to This Post
On something like your van (carburated) higher ethonal can cause a higher risk (larger temp/humidty curve) for carb icing...it also aint real good for rubber seals, fuel lines ect.
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Report this Post10-13-2010 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ditchSend a Private Message to ditchDirect Link to This Post
Overall I don't think you'll see much more ethanol mixed in with the gas, maybe in some localized areas, but overall there should be plenty of low ethanol gas available if you want to avoid it. I avoid it because ethanol, producing less energy than gas, lowers fuel mileage

Little piece of info I read somewhere: if the US used all of it's corn production to produce ethanol (none for food), that would only be enough to dilute all of our gasoline to 15% ethanol, and that's at todays consumption. Our gasoline consumption goes up every year, but there are so many corn fields, so that number could probably trend downward over time.
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Report this Post10-13-2010 05:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
yes, much like the less zinc in oils

the new stuff aint for old cars. always been an issue. I expect the worst was the switch to unleaded gasoline.
which I expect your VW bus also needed to make changes for - but - probably not even a thought anymore

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Report this Post10-13-2010 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac:

On something like your van (carburated) higher ethonal can cause a higher risk (larger temp/humidty curve) for carb icing...it also aint real good for rubber seals, fuel lines ect.


Damn, I figured... the rubber seals thing is what gets me. I'm worried on the effect it will have on my Fiero? Incidentally, I'll be re-doing everything anyway.

The Bus shouldn't be too bad. I've already replaced all the lines with steel, except for a small portion that connects the nipple on the bottom of the tank, to the steel lines, and the small portion from the electric pusher pump to the carb. It's a gravity feed tank, so it gets it's fuel from a hole in the bottom of the tank.

The carb did ice-up one winter... I was driving it not but 15 miles and the entire carb had a layer of frost / ice all over it... and this was in 50 degree weather...

Do you think those water inhibitor additives that they sell will work?

 
quote
Originally posted by ditch:

Overall I don't think you'll see much more ethanol mixed in with the gas, maybe in some localized areas, but overall there should be plenty of low ethanol gas available if you want to avoid it. I avoid it because ethanol, producing less energy than gas, lowers fuel mileage

Little piece of info I read somewhere: if the US used all of it's corn production to produce ethanol (none for food), that would only be enough to dilute all of our gasoline to 15% ethanol, and that's at todays consumption. Our gasoline consumption goes up every year, but there are so many corn fields, so that number could probably trend downward over time.


Seems like every gas station I go to, it tells me that there's 10% ethanol. Is there a way I can tell if it doesn't?


 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

yes, much like the less zinc in oils

the new stuff aint for old cars. always been an issue. I expect the worst was the switch to unleaded gasoline.
which I expect your VW bus also needed to make changes for - but - probably not even a thought anymore


Yeah, it is a 73, and it was the first year that included it. The engine was replaced anyway with a SLIGHTLY larger motor... 1.8 liter, up from 1.7... heh...

I do remember though that when I rebuilt my 69 Olds 455 big block 2 years ago, that I had to have hardened valve seats installed because of the unleaded gas.


------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-13-2010).]

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maryjane
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Report this Post10-13-2010 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

As I understand it, most gas pumps "can" have 8-10 percent ethanol mixed in with the regular gas. I know that horsepower is reduced ever so slightly, but with the extra 5-7% ethanol, it can cause other problems. As I understand it, it's not a big deal for normal cars that are driven daily, but when allowed to sit, it can attract water in the fuel tank, and even goes bad in significantly less time than gas did just 5 years ago.

What do we do in our collector cars, especially when they often don't get driven but maybe once or twice a month? With my VW Bus, I've had the same tank of gas in there for over a year... I just don't drive it that much.

Should I install a drain screw in the fuel tank???



No, you should buy corn futures.

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Report this Post10-13-2010 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


No, you should buy corn futures.


And whiskey futures.
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Report this Post10-13-2010 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for partfieroSend a Private Message to partfieroDirect Link to This Post
With all of the hungry people in the world, the libs want to burn more food?
Thought it was proven to be of no benefit to pop corn in our motors.
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Report this Post10-13-2010 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Nurb432Send a Private Message to Nurb432Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by partfiero:

With all of the hungry people in the world, the libs want to burn more food?
Thought it was proven to be of no benefit to pop corn in our motors.


Even if it costs more, if it helps get us away from foreign fuel oil id support it. As far as burning food, we still have tons and tons go to waste ever year, so until we get to the point its honestly effecting feeding people ( either directly or indirectly as animal feed ) i don't think its a big deal.
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Report this Post10-13-2010 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ditchSend a Private Message to ditchDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:


Even if it costs more, if it helps get us away from foreign fuel oil id support it.


It really won't help us get away from foreign oil. Maybe a little, but like I said before, if we used ALL the US corn to produce ethanol, that would only supplement about 15% of our gasoline needs. Again, that's if we used all of it. That of course would never even come close to happening as it would have severely negative effects on our agriculture market.....food prices being the first thing that comes to most peoples mind.

Also, it definitely costs more, all of us more, even costs those who don't use it. Why?...becuase the process is so expensive that it has to be subsidized by the government in order to be competitive. Our government has to pour money into it so the ethanol producers can actually make a profit. I'd much prefer they let me keep my money and I will decide the best way to spend it.
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Report this Post10-13-2010 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for spark1Send a Private Message to spark1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


No, you should buy corn futures.


Needed that tip six months ago.

It's more efficient to burn corn directly for home heating than to convert it to alcohol for fuel to be burned.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 10-13-2010).]

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Report this Post10-13-2010 08:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for deceler8Send a Private Message to deceler8Direct Link to This Post
It's just the Dems kissing farmer ass before the election.

Anyone one else notice corn is at a two year high ?

Your average ethanol plant has probably cut production for that reason...unless the gubment mandates 15%, nothing's gonna change.

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Report this Post10-13-2010 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
The carb did ice-up one winter... I was driving it not but 15 miles and the entire carb had a layer of frost / ice all over it... and this was in 50 degree weather...



Ice on the outside is no problem...its when the ice forms on the inside of the venturi and gradually (sometimes just a couple minutes) chokes off the intake that is the real problem...Its a very common thing in carbureted airplane motors, and they have carb heat built in to handle the issue (it directs warm air from around the exhaust manifold into the intake to melt the ice).

Google "carb icing chart" and "mogas carb icing" to get a crapload of charts and graphs that will give you the "danger zones" of temp/ humidity for it to happen.

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Report this Post10-13-2010 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
All cars are made to run on a 15% ethanol mix since the 80’s. so it shouldn’t affect many here. Don’t believe me? Look at your Fiero’s owners manual. Even they were made to that specification.
Even my carbureted 86 Burban allowed for it.
Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-13-2010).]

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Report this Post10-13-2010 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DtheCSend a Private Message to DtheCDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nurb432:
Even if it costs more, if it helps get us away from foreign fuel oil id support it. As far as burning food, we still have tons and tons go to waste ever year, so until we get to the point its honestly effecting feeding people ( either directly or indirectly as animal feed ) i don't think its a big deal.

There is maybe 2-3 cents of corn in a box of Corn Flakes. The cost of transport is any ones guess?
The Corn used in Ethanol is not 100% used to create Ethanol !!!
About 70 - 80 % is "Millers Grain' that is fed to livestock, a much more efficient food stock than regular Corn.

I'm going back to 'Regular' if the 15% is mandated, I'd rather pay a few cents more and avoid having to rebuild a fuel line and maybe re-program my ECU?

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Report this Post10-13-2010 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for skuzzbomerSend a Private Message to skuzzbomerDirect Link to This Post
I don't know about you but there's a co-op about 10 minutes from my college campus that sells real gas - its about $0.08 more per gal than the Shell across the street.


I'm going to get a 5gal gas can and have it filled there - then I'm going to drive until I run out of gas and fill 'er up with the real stuff. Will see what happens to my mileage after that.
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Report this Post10-14-2010 01:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RamsesprideSend a Private Message to RamsesprideDirect Link to This Post
i am fortunate enough to live a short drive from a petrolstation that sells all 0 ethanol gases still.

when i fill up on Kwik Trip gas my engine in my Jeep dosnt like to run and the built motor in my old Intrepid would actually Vapor Lock at times and if the temp was below -20*F it wouldnt start atall without a ZOMGTOOMUCH shot of ether!

I living in a corn state for one feel that Ethanol is a bad idea for fuel.
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Report this Post10-14-2010 06:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
All cars are made to run on a 15% ethanol mix since the 80’s. so it shouldn’t affect many here.

"Built to run on" or "will not be damaged if run on" ? It will and has affected all of us. By having less power and worse mileage.
So, we add ethanol to decrease foreign oil consumption but have to use more gallons of gas to go the same distance, ?
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Report this Post10-14-2010 07:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nmw75Send a Private Message to nmw75Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:

"Built to run on" or "will not be damaged if run on" ? It will and has affected all of us. By having less power and worse mileage.
So, we add ethanol to decrease foreign oil consumption but have to use more gallons of gas to go the same distance, ?



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Report this Post10-14-2010 07:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishDirect Link to This Post
So, just to be clear it's been a while since I read the book, mind you, but there is a book out there called "alcohol can be a gas."

FYI, brazil runs quite a bit of there economy on ethanol just so you know, and they are only the 5th biggest economy in the world

First, I am not a liberal, I'm somewhere between a libertarian and conservative. The auther of the book however is a huge liberal, so if you read it and you are not a lib, it takes some getting used to.

Now that my disclaimers are out of my way. According to this book ethanol has the ability to replace gasoline without using food as a fuel source. Sure, we do use corn, but it's because we have a lot of it in this country, not because it's a good fuel source. Couple interesting things about corn in america. #1, MOST of it is used in animal feed. #2, if you fermented alcohol out of corn, and used the leftovers to feed the cattle, they do better in both health, and growth. Cattle can not actually digest the starch in corn like humans can.

Next, there are FAR better feedstocks our there for alcohol production, one of which is called a cat tail. a cat tail (which people don't eat BTW) grown on secondary sewage can yield 2000+ gallons of alcohol per acre (corn is 150ish per acre if I remember).

Also, there are feedstocks that can be grown in ponds and oceans, like algae for example, that can have very high yields of alcohol. I don't remember ever eating algae FYI

It went on and one about different feedstocks, re-using things, and maximizing efficiency to grow crops. Things like using greenhouses and burning wasted parts of plants to run the plant, capturing the CO2 and pumping it back into the greenhouses so the plants would grow faster, re-using the leftovers from alcohol production as fertilizer for the next back, etc.

Cars;

There are more than one type of alcohol, The two big ones being methanol, and ethanol. Methanol is the one that will eat rubber lines, aluminum, etc.

Ethanol will not.

As for your fuel mileage? yes your engine built to run on gasoline will loose some power, and fuel mileage from switching to ethanol. However, if you build the engine to run on alcohol it will do BETTER on fuel, and make MORE power. let me explain. Gasoline is 93 octane at best. E98 is 113 octane. What can be do with all that extra octane?

Turbo's and/or high compressions. An alcohol engine can tolerate as high as 15:1 compression, compression makes a lot more power and better fuel mileage at the same time. The same can be done with turbo, you are increasing the compression, just in a different way.

Gasoline can run Air fuel mixtures in the 10-15 range (some can run 17 if you are careful). Alcohol for max power needs 9.5 ish, but, it can run as lean as 23:1 when cruising.

gasoline is a hydrocarbon, it has no oxygen in it, so as it starts burning it gets harder to burn the fuel because there is less oxygen around to burn. It also polutes the oil, turns everything black and sooty, etc.

Alcohol is a carbohydrate, it has oxygen in it, and burns more completely than gas despite it's lower energy content. Also, like propane, it will never turn the engine, or oil black. It will look just as pretty and shiny when you put it together, as when you take it apart.

I plan on building to fieros to run on alcohol,
85 SE, 4 spd, swap in a 3500 stock, run on gasoline, take it to the track, test fuel mileage, etc
Switch to alcohol, change fuel maps, and timing, and repeat above tests.
3rd, Twin turbos (very small) to make the compression high, and repeat.

Second car
87 GT
hybrid 2.8 with 3100 block, heads, intake. 2.8 crank, rods, pistons. custom camshaft. 12.5 or so compression and I only plan on running alcohol.

I could go on and on, but I don't have time, and this should wet you kids appetites anyways

-Brandon

------------------
The List;
-98 Jetta TDI (55+ MPG) DD -95 BMW 325i 5 spd Wife's
-82 Chevette Diesel 50+ MPG spare -87 Fiero 3800 S1 S/C 5spd project for sale
-88 Fiero Formula 5 spd for sale -85 Fiero SE (7730 ecm, 3500)
-87 GT (7730 ecm, hybrid 2800, izusu 5spd swap soon)
-85 S10 diesel 5spd (engine donor) -84 S10 (receiver)
-91 Mercedes 190E (diesel 5spd swap) -84 Mercedes 190D (donor)

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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post10-14-2010 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:

So, just to be clear it's been a while since I read the book, mind you, but there is a book out there called "alcohol can be a gas."

FYI, brazil runs quite a bit of there economy on ethanol just so you know, and they are only the 5th biggest economy in the world

First, I am not a liberal, I'm somewhere between a libertarian and conservative. The auther of the book however is a huge liberal, so if you read it and you are not a lib, it takes some getting used to.




Thanks guys, appreciate all the responses.

Thanks cooguyfish, yeah, I've known about Brazil for a little while now. They still make the late 60s / 70s version of the Volkswagen Bus that we used to have in America. The version they have is nearly identical, except that it has a slightly raised roof, comes with air conditioning, and is water cooled. They also ONLY come as ethanol powered vehicles.


Are you absolutely sure about Ethanol not having any effect on the lines? I wouldn't doubt that methanol would... and while I don't think ethanol is a corrosive agent that will eat through metal, I do wonder about the effect it will have on regular gaskets. It seems to me that they wouldn't be designing cars specifically made for E85 (FlexFuel) if it wasn't just more than simple computer programming to make it compatible.


I don't have a problem with Ethanol. I do have a problem with putting it in an older car that is as of yet, untested... however, since I'm completely going through my car anyway, I'd like to know sooner than later if there are special seals that I need to use to make it last longer. I'm going to end up pulling the motor and replacing all the fuel components except the injectors themselves (17# and only have like 2,000 miles on them).


Thanks!!!

------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

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Report this Post10-14-2010 08:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id32.html

How To Adapt Your Automobile Engine For Ethyl Alcohol Use
Now that we've explained the fundamental differences between alcohol and gasoline fuels, we can get on with the actual conversion of a conventional gasoline-burning engine to alcohol use. We'll cover the three major changes (main jet, idle jet, and timing), and we'll also go on to cover some other areas that may be of interest to those who want to go further to increase the efficiency of their alcohol-burning engines.

MAINJET CHANGES
The first thing you'll have to alter is the main metering jet in your carburetor. In most carburetors, this is a threaded brass plug with a specific-sized hole drilled through the center of it. This hole is called the main jet orifice, and its diameter dictates how rich or lean the air/fuel mixture will be when the car is traveling at cruising speeds. Naturally, the smaller the hole is, the less fuel will blend with the air and the leaner the mixture will be. As the orifice is enlarged, the mixture gets richer.

Since alcohol requires a richer air/fuel ratio, it's necessary to bore out the main jet orifice when using ethanol fuel. The standard jet size in MOTHER's alcohol-powered truck was .056" ... in other words, this was the diameter of the jet orifice. In order to operate the engine successfully on alcohol fuel, it's necessary to enlarge this opening by anywhere from 20 to 40%.


now this is to convert to 100% ethanol so it is different then just 15% ethanol.

lots more info on that site but it is more for those wanting to go 95% ethanol.

CONVERTING GASOLINE ENGINES TO RUN ON ALCOHOL

You can make you own E85 fuel!
If you want to use your home-made ethanol in your car as E-85 (85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, before you mix it with gasoline, it has to be 100% pure: 200 proof. This will be a high octane fuel: about 102 octane. You may get about 10% less mileage as there is technically less energy in alcohol than gasoline. If you increased your compression and do everything to optimize your engine for alcohol, it will actually get better mileage and/or more power, as a higher octane (slower burning) fuel is more efficient. But even though the Charles 803 still will make 194 proof, first time, every time, you can never remove that last 3% of water using a still of any kind. You will need to use a molecular sieve. This sounds technical, but it is real easy. Just read this letter I got from Dr. Grant Carlson with Eco-Rebuilders. "Since we remanufacture old third generation Corvettes with big horsepower-high compression-fuel injected engines, homemade E85 is important to our customers. A molecular sieve is just zeolite: link to information about the manufacturer we use is shown here. Buy Type 3A in 10lb bags (looks like a small pea gravel) it is only a couple of bucks and it works very well to dehydrate the ethanol. We mix about 5lbs in a 5 gallon can and let it sit with the ethanol overnight and pour the dehydrated ethanol through a screen, into another can the next day. To get the water out of the zeolite we just broil it on the backyard grill - it is reusable indefinitely.


http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html
steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-14-2010).]

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Report this Post10-14-2010 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:
As for your fuel mileage? yes your engine built to run on gasoline will loose some power, and fuel mileage from switching to ethanol. However, if you build the engine to run on alcohol it will do BETTER on fuel, and make MORE power. let me explain. Gasoline is 93 octane at best. E98 is 113 octane. What can be do with all that extra octane?
Turbo's and/or high compressions. An alcohol engine can tolerate as high as 15:1 compression, compression makes a lot more power and better fuel mileage at the same time. The same can be done with turbo, you are increasing the compression, just in a different way.
Gasoline can run Air fuel mixtures in the 10-15 range (some can run 17 if you are careful). Alcohol for max power needs 9.5 ish, but, it can run as lean as 23:1 when cruising.
gasoline is a hydrocarbon, it has no oxygen in it, so as it starts burning it gets harder to burn the fuel because there is less oxygen around to burn. It also polutes the oil, turns everything black and sooty, etc.
Alcohol is a carbohydrate, it has oxygen in it, and burns more completely than gas despite it's lower energy content. Also, like propane, it will never turn the engine, or oil black. It will look just as pretty and shiny when you put it together, as when you take it apart.
.... thiss should wet you kids appetites anyways

Thanks for the reply cooguyfish, and yes, my appetite is wet now. Please, when you do have more time, elaborate some more. One thing which did puzzle me though was ...
 
quote
Originally posted by cooguyfish:
Gasoline can run Air fuel mixtures in the 10-15 range (some can run 17 if you are careful). Alcohol for max power needs 9.5 ish, but, it can run as lean as 23:1 when cruising.

... the correlation of 10-15/9.5 and 23:1. I am guessing that it would be 10-15:1 and 9.5:1 which you meant, understanding you were rushed for time.
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Report this Post10-14-2010 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:

... the correlation of 10-15/9.5 and 23:1. I am guessing that it would be 10-15:1 and 9.5:1 which you meant, understanding you were rushed for time.



Yes, the gas engines can run the ranges of 10:1 through as little as 17:1. I said 15:1 earlier, and just mentioned the 17:1 briefly, 17:1 is called a "lean burn engine" apparently as your drop past 14.7:1 it starts getting hotter, and around 17:1 it cools back off enough to run, but I remember there being some kind of problem with emissions at 17:1. Something about it making more NoX emissions I think.

Alcohol can run the range of 9.5:1 (I think, it's around there) to as lean as 23:1.

Gasoline's ideal AFR is 14.7
Alcohol's ideal AFR is 9.5 ish.

But that's why I made the point about what it can tolerate on light throttle cruising.

To answer your question 82-T/A. I do not know from personal experience about ethanol being safe for rubber lines. But the guy that wrote the book was adamant that it wouldn't.

As far as E85 capability, I've heard they do put in different fuel lines and injectors, but I don't know if that's true or not. I do know most of the differences are the fuel and spark tables though.

Also, just for fun, the authors name is david blume BTW. He said in the book that cars were originally built to run on alcohol and gasoline came later. He mentioned and showed that the for model T was actually a "flex fuel car" in that you could from the drivers seat adjust the air fuel mixture and the ignition timing for alcohol.

I'll dig the book out later and bring up some of the key points. It really did make it sound like you could VERY easily produce your own alcohol, convert your own car, etc. The house I bought happens to have a little over and acre of extremely fertile ground so I planned on conducting my own experiments.

I was going to do it in stages though
1) Buy E85 from the local station and covert a car to run on it. (and the reason for choosing to turbo it was to make it flex fuel capable since I could lower the boost PSI if I had to run gas).
2) Buy my own feedstocks to ferment alcohol with
3) Start growing feedstocks to ferment alcohol with.

I never bring this up though because it will be a several year plan, and I like to wait til I have my results before I start talking about it. O, and also, I have a lawncare business and if everything went well with cars I had considered converting all my equipment to run on alcohol.

-Brandon
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guitarjerry
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Report this Post07-10-2011 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for guitarjerrySend a Private Message to guitarjerryDirect Link to This Post
I hope no one minds me bumping this. I think I may just try this myself and make my own fuel. Not just to save money.
Every morning when I am driving somewhere, whether work or somewhere else, I get on the freeway and can see over the valley and I see this pinkish brown cloud of air hanging over the valley. This concerns me, It's not just the gasoline industry, everywhere I see we are doing things and using forms of energy that aren't sustainable, and the other better, "green" ways of doing things are mainly left out bc everyone is afraid of change, and mostly the people whose wallets get fat, but other people too seem ignorant and believe what they are told without questioning.

I've also noticed almost no one mentions the idea of using the sun to heat the still, instead of wasting other resources. I mean, we are talking about a "green" form of energy, right? So why not the sun? A while ago, a friend showed me this lighter he had that was basically a metal parabolic mirror that focused the sun on the end of the cigarette. This was in the middle of winter, on a day the sun was shining. I mean, you could even use the ethanol itself to heat the still, right?

Now, what would it take to set up a fiero to run on ethanol, or even E85? I know you have to have more heat in order for it to vaporize. I came across this the other day and think it would run well on ethanol:
http://www.legendarycollect...our-exclusive-video/

a carb actually might be a better option for ethanol, even though you cannot exactly control the mixture, it atomizes fuel better. It is easier to set up, too.
What other options as far as heating the mixture? The iron duke runs at 230 degrees normally, so that will help.

also if fuel injection is still run, what about reprogramming computer, etc?
I watched a demonstration where a fuel additive designed to clean entire engine and fuel system was burned on a plate, alongside regular gas. The ethanol burned blue and burned completely and the gas burned dirty, red and yellow, and left a residue on the plate. Blue indicates a higher amount of heat, so yes, with the right setup and more compression we will get better gas mileage and more power.

also, i read about a setup where you have an extra smaller tank full of regular gas setup on a switch for starting on cold days (ethanol will not vaporize at lower temps), but what about an intake heater or something. kind of like how diesels use glow plugs.

[This message has been edited by guitarjerry (edited 07-10-2011).]

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Report this Post07-10-2011 04:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
You could try using stable in it.. or dry gas. I used stable in my IMSA while it was parked for the winter.. dident have a problem with the gas but the car is still a basketcase.
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Report this Post07-10-2011 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
It MEANS my lawnmower won't run on it.
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Report this Post07-10-2011 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for avengador1Send a Private Message to avengador1Direct Link to This Post
According to a local news story only cars made before 2001 will be affected by this, for the rest of us it just means less fuel economy. Sta-bil makes an Ethanol stabilizer product.
http://www.goldeagle.com/pr...ts/4_oz_ethanol.aspx
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Report this Post07-11-2011 03:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

All cars are made to run on a 15% ethanol mix since the 80’s. so it shouldn’t affect many here. Don’t believe me? Look at your Fiero’s owners manual. Even they were made to that specification.
Even my carbureted 86 Burban allowed for it.
Steve




I have been arguing for ethanol for years. If you have a boosted application, ethanol can enable more boost for more power. With more power, you can run less throttle and consume a little less fuel. Is it less than straight gas? Probably not but...

Also, ( http://papers.sae.org/932953/ )

The objective of this study was to evaluate iso-butanol (C 4 H 9 OH) as an alternative fuel for spark ignition engines. Unlike methanol (CH 3 OH) and ethanol (C 2 H 5 OH), iso-butanol has not been extensively studied in the past as either a fuel blend candidate with gasoline or straight fuel. The performance of a single cylinder engine (ASTM=CFR) was studied using alcohol-gasoline blends under different input parameters. The engine operating conditions were: three carburetor settings (three different fuel flow rates), spark timings of 5°, 10°, 15°, 20°, and 25° BTDC, and a range of compression ratios from a minimum of 7.5 to a maximum of 15 in steps of one depending on knock. The fuels tested were alcohol-gasoline blends having 5%, 10%, 15%, and 20% of iso-butanol, ethanol, and methanol. And also as a baseline fuel, pure gasoline (93 ON) was used. The engine was run at a constant speed of 800 RPM. Torque, power, brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC), and thermal efficiency were determined at all the operating conditions. A direct comparison was drawn among the three alcohol blends and pure gasoline.

Increasing alcohol content of the blend resulted in improving the anti-knock quality of the fuel but decreasing the power, and increasing BSFC. Thermal efficiency remained comparably constant within the range of fuel alcohol contents (5-20%). Methanol, ethanol, and iso-butanol showed nearly the same anti-knock effect. Iso-butanol blends resulted in more power, higher thermal efficiency, and lower BSFC than corresponding methanol and ethanol blends. Gasoline showed better results for torque, power, BSFC, and thermal efficiency than any of the blends studied.


It would be nice to see the actual charts to see how close the BSFC ratings were with the various configurations. Without the actual numbers it would be difficult to continue this thread and not have opinions and emotions taking over.

[This message has been edited by Xyster (edited 07-11-2011).]

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Report this Post07-11-2011 04:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tbone42:

It MEANS my lawnmower won't run on it.


Yep--all the new mowers I looked at last week have a warning label NOT to use more than 15% ethanol fuels.
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Report this Post07-12-2011 12:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for turboguy327Send a Private Message to turboguy327Direct Link to This Post
E85 is a great fuel. My buddy has a 800 hp Evo. And if you ask I just watched it do 831 AWHP on a mustang dyno on sunday. He runs E85 with the car. He knows how to tune a car to run E85. And they have been playing with E85 in many other evo's. The cost is less in a boosted application in the long run with corn juice over gasoline. You can tune the car to actually run less boost than stock by 3-4 PSI and make 40 more AWHP. And the fuel economy drops by 2-3 mpg. Which is alot less than you would think. With the added power you dont need to give it as much throttle.
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Report this Post07-12-2011 03:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by turboguy327:

E85 is a great fuel. My buddy has a 800 hp Evo. And if you ask I just watched it do 831 AWHP on a mustang dyno on sunday. He runs E85 with the car. He knows how to tune a car to run E85. And they have been playing with E85 in many other evo's. The cost is less in a boosted application in the long run with corn juice over gasoline. You can tune the car to actually run less boost than stock by 3-4 PSI and make 40 more AWHP. And the fuel economy drops by 2-3 mpg. Which is alot less than you would think. With the added power you dont need to give it as much throttle.


Exactly. E85 is how Koenigsegg gets 1000+hp for the CCXR.
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Report this Post07-12-2011 03:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xyster:

I have been arguing for ethanol for years. If you have a boosted application, ethanol can enable more boost for more power. With more power, you can run less throttle and consume a little less fuel. Is it less than straight gas? Probably not but...

Also, ( http://papers.sae.org/932953/ )

The objective of this study was to evaluate iso-butanol (C 4 H 9 OH) as an alternative fuel for spark ignition engines. Unlike methanol (CH 3 OH) and ethanol (C 2 H 5 OH), iso-butanol has not been extensively studied in the past as either a fuel blend candidate with gasoline or straight fuel. The performance of a single cylinder engine (ASTM=CFR) was studied using alcohol-gasoline blends under different input parameters. The engine operating conditions were: three carburetor settings (three different fuel flow rates), spark timings of 5°, 10°, 15°, 20°, and 25° BTDC, and a range of compression ratios from a minimum of 7.5 to a maximum of 15 in steps of one depending on knock. The fuels tested were alcohol-gasoline blends having 5%, 10%, 15%, and 20% of iso-butanol, ethanol, and methanol. And also as a baseline fuel, pure gasoline (93 ON) was used. The engine was run at a constant speed of 800 RPM. Torque, power, brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC), and thermal efficiency were determined at all the operating conditions. A direct comparison was drawn among the three alcohol blends and pure gasoline.

Increasing alcohol content of the blend resulted in improving the anti-knock quality of the fuel but decreasing the power, and increasing BSFC. Thermal efficiency remained comparably constant within the range of fuel alcohol contents (5-20%). Methanol, ethanol, and iso-butanol showed nearly the same anti-knock effect. Iso-butanol blends resulted in more power, higher thermal efficiency, and lower BSFC than corresponding methanol and ethanol blends. Gasoline showed better results for torque, power, BSFC, and thermal efficiency than any of the blends studied.


It would be nice to see the actual charts to see how close the BSFC ratings were with the various configurations. Without the actual numbers it would be difficult to continue this thread and not have opinions and emotions taking over.



Lol try tellin that to my formula.. the thing is a pig.
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Report this Post07-12-2011 04:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:


Lol try tellin that to my formula.. the thing is a pig.


If it's not boosted than you should expect a decrease in mpg and no benfits in hp.

The line "Gasoline showed better results for torque, power, BSFC, and thermal efficiency than any of the blends studied" supports that.

However, if it's forced induction, crank up the boost and enjoy.

[This message has been edited by Xyster (edited 07-12-2011).]

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Report this Post07-12-2011 06:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gokart MozartClick Here to visit Gokart Mozart's HomePageSend a Private Message to Gokart MozartDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by deceler8:

It's just the Dems kissing farmer ass before the election.

Anyone one else notice corn is at a two year high ?

Your average ethanol plant has probably cut production for that reason...unless the gubment mandates 15%, nothing's gonna change.



It's not the farmers controlling the market, it's the big companies. They control the EPA. Look how more products are corn based like high fructose corn syrup. Soy is a close second.
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Report this Post07-12-2011 10:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
So, what can we expect for our stock Fieros?
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Report this Post07-12-2011 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Gas stations won't likely be replacing all, or even most, of their pumped product lines with E15. Most consumers know that the higher the ethanol content the lower the mileage, and will do the price calculation accordingly. E15 would have to be sold for enough of a discount off of the price of the lowest grade of E10 to get people to buy it, and even then only those who have newer cars will do so. A mom and pop with 4 pumps won't likely carry it at all. A big mega distributor may add new underground tanks so that they can convert some pumps to E15, but it won't be the majority. If the ethanol subsidies get canceled or rolled back (as I sincerely hope) then E15 may become non-profitable enough to disappear entirely.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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Report this Post07-12-2011 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Direct Link to This Post
This was actually a really old post that I made (something like 7-8 months ago). Last I heard, just a month or so ago, that E15 law never actually passed??? Can someone confirm or deny? It doesn't look like it's going to take place in part because they've now agreed to end corn subsidies.
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Report this Post07-13-2011 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedDirect Link to This Post
i heard a rumor that some stations were going to be offering an "off road" fuel, for small engines that are carbed, would be unleaded, but old style good gas... anyone else heard this?!
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Report this Post12-29-2011 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for avengador1Send a Private Message to avengador1Direct Link to This Post
EPA sets final US renewable fuel volumes for 2012 at 15.2B gallons
http://www.platts.com/RSSFe.../RSSFeed/Oil/6803090
 
quote
The US Environmental Protection Agency opted Tuesday to set a more ambitious goal for the production of cellulosic biofuels in 2012, saying the 31% boost from 2011 levels would drive growth in the fledgling industry. The EPA is requiring that 8.65 million gallons of cellulosic biofuels be used in 2012, up from the 6.6 million gallons it required in 2011. That number is still far below the 500 million gallons required by statute. But it is higher than the low end of the range it had originally proposed in June, when it said it was considering a volume of 3.45 million to 12.9 million gallons. The cellulosic requirements are part of the larger Renewable Fuel Standard targets for 2012. Refineries and other blenders will have to use the equivalent of 15.2 billion gallons of ethanol, cellulosic biofuels, biodiesel and similar renewable fuels next year -- the same amount as the EPA had initially proposed in June. That compares with 13.95 billion gallons the EPA required in 2011. The volumes, part of the so-called RFS2, represent 9.2% of the nation's transportation fuel supply in 2012. The EPA set a requirement of 1 billion gallons for biomass-based diesel in 2012. But it punted a decision on 2013 volumes for biomass-based diesel fuel until next year, saying more analysis was needed. In setting the higher goal for cellulosic fuels, the EPA said that meeting the statutory goals of predictability and reducing uncertainty "does not require the EPA to specify an applicable volume for cellulosic biofuel that is as low as possible or based only on demonstrated (as opposed to reasonably anticipated) production," the final rule states. The EPA acknowledged its higher targets could create uncertainty. And the agency estimates of projected available volumes of cellulosic fuels, based on its analysis of six companies, is higher than the Energy Information Administration's more conservative estimate of 6.9 million gallons in 2012. Still, it said, "Our intention is to balance such uncertainty with the objective of promoting growth in the industry." The EPA decision was slammed by the National Petrochemical & Refiners Association, which said the agency acted "unwisely." "Once again, refiners are being ordered to use a substance that is not being produced in commercial quantities -- cellulosic ethanol -- and are being required to pay millions of dollars for failing to use this non-existent substance," NPRA President Charles Drevna said in a statement. "This makes no sense."
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