quote Originally posted by Pyrthian:...with Hugo in charge...? isnt Hugo dead? does this imply Jacob was dead all along? and his twin Bro? and their fake mom? well, does make sense in that only dead people could see Jacob.....wait - no - Richard saw him....is again - is rRchard dead? UG!

They actually covered that one. When Jack asked Christian if eveyrone was dead he (Christian) said something like some died with him, some before, some long after. Hurley told Ben he was a good number two, and Ben returned that he was a good number one. I took that to mean Hurley had spent however much time protecting the island with Ben at his side. Whereever they were in that church, there was no "now" so everyone could be there together at what ever age they were when the connection was made. That was sort of explained, just stupid. Up to that point the time shifts had meaning and consequence, then time was suddenly irrelevant.

I thought they would bring Mr. Eko and his stick back - maybe there were contract disputes with some of the former cast members. They may have valued their contribution to the show more than the producers did.

Wow, I feel like I have been called out about something we are all guessing on...

Watch scene where Jack falls down and closes his eye. He has the same injury he had in the first episode, laying in the same place as the beginning, with the same wreckage as the beginning. They even pan past a shoe hanging on a tree. The wreckage is all still on the island, no tarps, no camp, just wreckage.

I think he landed there, and died there, and everyone else died as well. The rest was a dream based on people he saw before the crash.

The human mind is a strange thing, and this was just a look into it.

I have been through several surgeries, and the dreams that I had when I was under was similar to this, threads of things that didn't make sense in the real world, and seemed to go on for years in the dream world. Very in depth dreams that I wish I could go back to, but are merely little threads now.

Like I said earlier, your wrong . I'm 100% sure none of us know the actual meaning.

Brad

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: They actually covered that one. When Jack asked Christian if eveyrone was dead he (Christian) said something like some died with him, some before, some long after. Hurley told Ben he was a good number two, and Ben returned that he was a good number one. I took that to mean Hurley had spent however much time protecting the island with Ben at his side. Whereever they were in that church, there was no "now" so everyone could be there together at what ever age they were when the connection was made. That was sort of explained, just stupid. Up to that point the time shifts had meaning and consequence, then time was suddenly irrelevant. I thought they would bring Mr. Eko and his stick back - maybe there were contract disputes with some of the former cast members. They may have valued their contribution to the show more than the producers did.

ya ya - but - my main Q at the moment - was Jacob dead all along?

and - we do now see that Ben actually DID die when Sayid shot him?

Well, I have all but the final season on DVD, and I'm now going to start watching the entire thing again. I'm not sure how many times this will make, I've watched it all several times, since I have a terrible memory I watch, and re-watch episodes to make sure I am following it. It also helps you realize things you missed before, I now follow that up with the various web site, chats with friends, and a Wiji board. (So far the board has been the most accurate).

Brad

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Sorry, your response doesn't really answer the questions. There is no REAL answer to how the electromagnetism caused the island to jump. Moving a wheel made the island shift in time? Right.... Lame. How did the wheel get there? We seen an episode with the wheel, but the well was destroyed. Just saying the fake mother was supernatural is not good enough. As for the statue... why only 4 toes? I don't care who built it, I want to know why and why it only has 4 toes! The problem is that people want to read more into this show than was provided. The Darma experiments were decades before the Lost crew showed up. How can a polarbear survive there? It isn't explained. Just saying that the Darma group was experimenting is not good enough. Why did the MIB turn to smoke? Am I just supposed to accept that it happened and not wonder how that would happen? If some of the island residents had they powers that they did, why couldn't they keep others off the island? What supernatural powers did they have and how did they get them? I just won't accept that they have powers. I want to know the reasons. Sorry, I just don't accept the answers, the producers of the show didn't have a plan, they just wrote one season at a time and hoped for the best.

All of your questions are things that CAN'T be explained. It's part of the mystery and wonder of the island. Yes, we don't know how electromagnetism moved the island because ISLANDS DON'T MOVE. How can they explain that scientifically? They can't, it's supernatural. Scientifically, why did the MIB turn into smoke? Idk, nobody has ever turned into smoke. But I know that it was worse than death for him, and I know Jacob couldn't kill him so that's what brought it about. It's supernatural.

It's like how can I explain God? I can't, it's beyond explanation. Same thing here. I don't know why you are fighting the given answers so much. Discussing the show brings fans together, it keeps a mystery alive while also providing a lot of answers. It leaves us with answered questions--but we have to interpret them ourselves.

If they had just answered everything black and white, it wouldn't be realistic. Where along the line of a realistic script would they find someone that could tell them exactly how the polar bear lived for so long? It would create far too many unbelievable stretches.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: All of your questions are things that CAN'T be explained. It's part of the mystery and wonder of the island. Yes, we don't know how electromagnetism moved the island because ISLANDS DON'T MOVE. How can they explain that scientifically? They can't, it's supernatural.

Which is when they lost me forever and I never went back.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Wow, I feel like I have been called out about something we are all guessing on... Watch scene where Jack falls down and closes his eye. He has the same injury he had in the first episode, laying in the same place as the beginning, with the same wreckage as the beginning. They even pan past a shoe hanging on a tree. The wreckage is all still on the island, no tarps, no camp, just wreckage. I think he landed there, and died there, and everyone else died as well. The rest was a dream based on people he saw before the crash. The human mind is a strange thing, and this was just a look into it. I have been through several surgeries, and the dreams that I had when I was under was similar to this, threads of things that didn't make sense in the real world, and seemed to go on for years in the dream world. Very in depth dreams that I wish I could go back to, but are merely little threads now. Like I said earlier, your wrong . I'm 100% sure none of us know the actual meaning. Brad

You're right, I called you out like a douche bag when all of us are just speculating. I didn't notice that the shoe had that significance. You could very well be right!

Sorry for the way I phrased my post. I realize I stepped over the line.

It's true that mystery is a part of what made the island what it was, and that some things have to remain a mystery. That's a given. What could be done is provide a more consistent plot. Revealing how Jason and the MIB/Smoke Monster ended up how they were didn't ruin the story, nor did telling Richard's story. Those things made the whole story better. It added just enough detail to keep those of us who are more inclined towards science interested. Another example was the code Desmond had to enter. Telling why didn't hurt anything. Imagine if he had just remained in that hatch for the entire series doing that with no explanation. Most people would have become bored with it and stopped caring.

On the other hand, insisting that the survivors weren't dead, but then sending all of them to "heaven" in the final hours, was a stupid choice because it dumps all science on its head and sums it all up as a dream about heaven and hell. Making matters worse, no matter what they seemed to be struggling with throughout the course of the show, they all seemed to smile their way into glory at the end! Am I watching an adult drama or a kid's fable?

And they all died happily ever after...

--edit to add... I had avoided this thread for 5 weeks until today!

Well... guess who just watched the season finale last night?

I too felt a sense of loss and confusion at the end... even though I knew they were all being drawn towards Christian's funeral.

As far as finale's go... it was pretty good. The little clip segments in the flash-sideways as our characters re-discovered each other were very powerful. Like a 20 second best of character xxx... that was strong. I liked that the show ended just as it began (well opposite really)... zooming out of Jack's eye and then ends zooming in on it. I knew he was a key figure... but I didn't realize up to that point that this story was really just his.

I didn't quite buy that Sayid... after years of pining for Nadia... his only love... and that his flash sideways was about her... and all the history we had with Nadia character... was just nothing. No... his true love winds up being some shallow blond party girl he had a picinic with?... Well... now that I think about it... yeah.

I guess my biggest question is "When did Jack die?"...

1) was it when the bomb went off?... dead Juliette leaves a message through Miles that "it worked." We have Rose, in the first flash sideways telling Jack... "it's Ok now... you can let go..." It makes me think that Jack (and I would have thought the other characters in the vicinity of the bomb) would have died then.

2) or was it when Oceanic 815 went down?... that explains the very last scene as the credits roll, with a wreckage strewn beach, and no sign of habitation. Though I thought that Christian or somebody said something to the affect that what happened on the Island, REALLY did happen, but I can't recall.

It was such a broad epic, which built a following on making more mysteries than answers... it was just impossible to tie it up neatly at the end. I guess in general that I am glad that the characters, this story I invested so much time on... ended happy... focusing on the best of what brought them together in life.

------------------
<---- did you buy Cliff a beer?

[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 06-25-2010).]

they all died when the bomb went off - tho - still not quite sure if the entire island was destroyed?
all of the last season was a "dream sequence"

but - this does mean a few things:
Walt was the only flight 815 survivor, in the end + Arron
Desmond is still alive & well

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: they all died when the bomb went off - tho - still not quite sure if the entire island was destroyed? all of the last season was a "dream sequence" but - this does mean a few things: Walt was the only flight 815 survivor, in the end + Arron Desmond is still alive & well

see... I think you might be right about this... but I also get hung up on this long overly unrealistic (duct tape?... sigh) story arc that Kate, Sawyer, Lepudis, Miles, Richard, and Claire manage to fly a jet off the Hydra island. What did that mean?... Shouldn't most of those guys have gone 'boom' with Jack if your premise is correct?... I mean Sawyer was leaning over the dang well!
Also... the last thing Jack sees... is a jet. You reckon it was them?

it is those guys leaving Hydra that keep me bouncing between options 1 & 2. BTW... I am not sure what to think about Miles being the only character of those 6 not on the purgatory flight 815... It showed everyone else on the plane in that first flash sideways, but Miles was back at LAPD waiting to give Sawyer the 5th degree about going to Ausland.

---edit... wait... was Richard on the sideways 815?... I can't remember!... does it even matter?
blast you LOST!... you still confound me!

[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 06-25-2010).]

none of the "flash sideways" had ANY actual content, and were just one big red herring. a glimpse of what may have been had the island not existed in the first place.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: none of the "flash sideways" had ANY actual content, and were just one big red herring. a glimpse of what may have been had the island not existed in the first place.

Matthew Fox said something like the whole series was what went through the airplane passengers minds the moment they died - you know 'flashing before your eyes'? All that weird crap was them resolving things in their life in their own minds. And some random stuff, like polar bears (Hugo had the Spanish comic book with them on the cover Walt was reading at on point). I guess Desmond was sort of caught in a purgatory-like holding pattern - just like Christian was already dead - and joined in.

Ok... after talking to Tom Slick... and re-watching the end of the finale again... I have a new theory that I am going to stay with... It seems to answer most questions I had, and fill the most voids.

There is a 3rd option to Jack's death... he died near the beach when he closed his eyes.

I think that is it. Supporting statements...
Christian tells Jack that he is real, they (the people in the church are real), what happened is real... In other words, their life on the Island was real. Those experiences, everything from Ernst blowing up to Jack taking the place of Jacob... was real.
In order for Ben to be a good number two, and Hurley to be a great number one... that had to be real. Jack dying and passing on the succesorship.
I don't think our beach survivors were killed by the initial crash. If they did, what would be the significance of gathering all these souls to one location to continue their journey? Those players became significant because of their experiences on the island... not because they all happened to have the same plane ticket. (and some of them like Penny and Des...were not even on Oceanic 815).

Which brings up my last point...

The so called flash-sideways. I have been thinking about them wrong all along. To say they are 'sideways' implies that they happened at the same time, or congruently, or alternate reality... to what was happening on the Island. That is not the case at all... They are not sideways. Think of them more like 'Soul Flashes.' Basically, the soul flash is the story, the means, that their spirit used to gather and congregate before moving on. It did not happen while they were alive, but after they died. And it did not matter when, where, or how they died... the soul flash is just what brought them together. Christain tells us... "there is no 'NOW'... there is no 'HERE'..." That is all just spiritual plane stuff.

So basically, as Jack, ironically laying in the same spot he awoke on the Island... looks up... and sees a plane fly overhead... that would be Kate, Sawyer, Claire, and the other 3... going on to lead their real life for some time. Then congregating once again as souls to continue their journey.

ahhhh... now I can sleep better.

I'd still like a little more insight on the end of season 5, after the bomb went off, and then they show the island at the bottom of the sea. this really implied to me that everyone who was stuck back in the 70's died.

I really gotta watch season 6 again, especially the first epsiode.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I'd still like a little more insight on the end of season 5, after the bomb went off, and then they show the island at the bottom of the sea. this really implied to me that everyone who was stuck back in the 70's died. I really gotta watch season 6 again, especially the first epsiode.

Pyr... I can't recall exactly... but when they showed the Island at the bottom of the sea... that was a 'Flash-Sideways', right?... In other words... that was not real... just a part of tool or web or thread that souls destined to be together used to congregate. Like I said... the sideways is not a future, or past, or what might have been, or what could be, or an alternate timeline... it is a mechanism to a means... and the sideways is the 'story' of those mechanisms of fate. Not reality. How surreal is it that all these people intertwine by chance to wind up at a concert with a classis pianist and a rock band ending up at a funeral... and half of them in jail just hours before? Like I said... all that was just a means to find each other again when you died. Clever and interesting actually.

Remember when Locke figured out in the sideways kinda what was going on?... he told Jack that "you have no son." Jack (Jack's soul/spirit/karma) was not ready to accept that truth at that time... but what Locke said was true. Jack had no son... (likewise, Juliette had no son)... just a representation or somesuch that was guiding him to meet the other important souls of his life.

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: Pyr... I can't recall exactly... but when they showed the Island at the bottom of the sea... that was a 'Flash-Sideways', right?... In other words... that was not real... just a part of tool or web or thread that souls destined to be together used to congregate. Like I said... the sideways is not a future, or past, or what might have been, or what could be, or an alternate timeline... it is a mechanism to a means... and the sideways is the 'story' of those mechanisms of fate. Not reality. How surreal is it that all these people intertwine by chance to wind up at a concert with a classis pianist and a rock band ending up at a funeral... and half of them in jail just hours before? Like I said... all that was just a means to find each other again when you died. Clever and interesting actually. Remember when Locke figured out in the sideways kinda what was going on?... he told Jack that "you have no son." Jack (Jack's soul/spirit/karma) was not ready to accept that truth at that time... but what Locke said was true. Jack had no son... (likewise, Juliette had no son)... just a representation or somesuch that was guiding him to meet the other important souls of his life.

maybe. being at the end of season 5, before we actually saw "flashsideways" - so - it may have been the very first flash sideways....
yes, thinking back - it is a VERY slick thing they did. but, me being more of a sci-fi guy am still endlessly upset about no actual answer to "The Island". besides some magnatism, nothing substantial was ever revealed. just "magical" & implied things. what were the actual powers held by Jacob and the other "caretakers"? there was alot of Egyptian implications. was this actually the place were the orginal story of the virgin birth in egyptian mythology took place? there was alot of emphasis on pregancy & children thru the series.

yeah... you're right about the scientific loose ends...

One thing I grapple with is the whole Widmore arc... He gets off the Island... spends a lifetime trying to get back... why?
Why did he leave in the first place? (maybe that was answered, and I just can't remember...)

What I came to believe, just my theory... Is that the Island, the heart of the Island specifically..., is a like a physical portal to a spiritual realm. And Widmore wanted to control that... or harnass that... (protect that?) or something like that.

If what happened on the Island is real, we know that there is a glowing energy at the heart of the Island. That same glow overtook Jack and the rest of our band in the church at the close of the finale... that is kinda why I think maybe the Island acts like a gate between the human plane and the 'next' plane. Why it needed protection. Why it could give un-explicable powers.

Now... I could certainly be convinced to some other theory too!

Sorry to keep bumping this...

Does anyone happen to have an explanation on why TMiB/Smoke Monster decided to take Locke's visage instead of what he had been running around with the whole rest of the time?

Is it something obvious like they wanted to keep the actor in a major role... and the viewing audience is more familiar with his face than the original MiB actor?

or some other reason that I just missed?

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: Sorry to keep bumping this... Does anyone happen to have an explanation on why TMiB/Smoke Monster decided to take Locke's visage instead of what he had been running around with the whole rest of the time? Is it something obvious like they wanted to keep the actor in a major role... and the viewing audience is more familiar with his face than the original MiB actor? or some other reason that I just missed?

I think it was more of a toll used to confuse the viewer. Lock is really FLock, wait, here is Lock, and here is FLock, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Just there to keep us wondering.

But, I know when he came back to the island MIB was then able to use his body, and used the "fright" of seeing Lock whom was supposed to be dead against the other characters. I think it was just another huge red herring to make us wonder. Another thread to pull at.

Man, I'm about to sit down and watch it all again from the beginning. I'm still curious about a lot.

Them dying on the beach, right there in the beginning would also explain how they kept coming up with tarps for tents. I mean come on.

According to the story line, they were close to Fiji. What if they made it to Fiji, or an outlying island, perhaps even Hawaii, and crashed on the beach, and died there, the rest was just their minds making up excuses for why nobody was finding them. If you look at a map of the Pacific Ocean, there are thousands of islands, plenty of places to crash.

Brad

He originally wanted to look like Locke so he could convince Ben to kill Jacob. Why he kept looking like Locke? - Dunno.

I've been using Netflix to catch up on Lost from the beginning. Yeah, it took a while. I'm just posting to say I was VERY SURPRISED at how satisfied I was with the way they ended it. I was not expecting an ending that wouldn't make me throw a shoe at the TV, but it was great.

Now I need to catch up on this thread and see if I have any input to some of the questions posted earlier.

When I started watching, I wasn't sure that I wanted to waste time on something so confusing and full of insane stuff that can't happen. But I'm real glad I stuck with it through to the end. I don't feel it was a waste of time. I now feel thoroughly entertained.

Oh, and Blake... the episode I watched at your house didn't spoil anything for me.

I was cleaning out old DVD revcordings... (trying to catch up on 'V' actually)... and wound up watching the episode when Jin & Sun go down with the sub.

What a great show. I find myself missing it.

So Chuck, did you find anything else to add? I still find my end of series explanations holding merit.