http://www.newsweek.com/id/214254/

Debunking such nonsense and BS as:

1. You'll have no choice in what health benefits you receive.

2. No chemo for older medicare patients.

3. Illegal immigrants will get free health insurance.

4. Death panels will decide who lives.

5. The government will set doctors' wages.

Top 5 problems with Obama followers:

1. They believe everything Obama says is the gospel truth.

2. There vision of the future is short sighted because their heads are up their rears.

3. They can't think for themselves.

4. They think there is an unlimited supply of other peoples money.

5. Government will fix everything, even when it's not broken.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 09-01-2009).]

We're laying the groundwork for these 5 "top lies" to come true, event if they aren't spelled out as such in the bill.


For example, regarding line item #1, instead of "you get to choose your health care", you get to "choose" from either the government's plan or a "list of government approved plans". The plan I select has to meet my approval, not the damned government's!

How can anyone be so gullible as to not see how this will lead to government graft and corruption, from insurance carriers trying to get on "the list" of plans?

Ultimately, the government could also set the requirements to get on "the list" so high, that the only plan left was the government one.

Now some liberal airhead could answer back, "if you don't like these plans, there are always your employer-sponsored plans" BUT once this passed, it would give the green light to employers to stop offering health care plans.


This whole thing is corralling us into a smaller and smaller holding pen, taking little bit by little bit so we don't get "spooked".

The biggest lie is that this bill will be passed into law, like it or not. We are living under the illusion that we have a choice. The government has already decided what is "good" for us and will slant everything to make it appear it is so. We all will have a price to pay for this, including those who vote to pass it.

You really call that DEBUNKING?


You will have NO choice...DEBUNKED!

Well, yeah, you will have SOME choice. Just not ones you would want.


No chemo for older medicare patients...DEBUNKED!

It is REALLY things like dialysis and bypass surgeries and pacemakers and icu treatment that will be unavailable after a certain age FIRST. We aren't at cutting off chemo yet. But when the costs get astronomical, we will work our way there.


Death panels will decide who lives...DEBUNKED!

They aren't going to be called DEATH panels. They are going to be called RATIONAL HEALTH RESOURCE UTILIZATION panels. See? That's WAY different. They will make decisions with the same result, but it isn't DEATH panels.


The government will set doctors' wages...DEBUNKED!

We aren't setting their SALARIES. We are just setting how much they get PAID. Medicare rate plus 5%. That is about 30 to 40% less than they are getting paid right now by private insurance. But we aren't setting their WAGES. See?


So it is OBVIOUS to see how easily these MYTHS are DEBUNKED.


And yet, when an actual plan would get implemented, you would see that the debunking was ALL semantics. And the REALITY is that every single one of the "Top 5 Lies" become a reality. It is just a matter of HOW LONG before they are implemented.
You know, somehow just because the current "bill" doesn't state these things in writing doesn't mean they aren't part of the plan and aren't actually ultimately inevitable.

But there are some "intellectuals" who somehow think THIS time WE are going to be able to do it differently and not have to do these things. Well, congratulations on how smart you THINK you are. But you aren't. And the Obama administration and congress sure isn't.

Goodness. Wake up. They couldn't even smoothly handle cash-for-clunkers. Yeah. Put your trust in that group and hitch your wagon to THAT future.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: http://www.newsweek.com/id/214254/ Debunking such nonsense and BS as: 1. You'll have no choice in what health benefits you receive. 2. No chemo for older medicare patients. 3. Illegal immigrants will get free health insurance. 4. Death panels will decide who lives. 5. The government will set doctors' wages.

Response:
1. You will be able to "keep" your insurance, until anything at all changes. Then, you will have to take a new plan, which will have government regulation on it. More than likely, the public option will force many smaller insurance companies out of business, leaving you the public option to pick from. So yes, technically you will be able to pick what ever plan you want, as long as it's that one.

2. Not sure on this, but I'm pretty sure chemo is the last resort already for older patients as it's very hard on the body. I have no concrete evidence that existing coverages will be denied for elderly patients, so I will not refute this statement.

3. Illegal immigrants ALREADY get free healthcare. At the ER. Been to California lately? You seriously trying to tell me that coverage levels won't INCREASE from the already high burden? Riiighht...

4. Again, the death panels may or may not happen, I have no solid evidence either way. I can only speculate that with human nature the way it is, when the money runs out (and it will, remember CARS?) those that are no longer paying into the system will be eyed as the first to go.

5. The government is already setting wage limits on government subsidized industries, such as banks, investment houses, car companies, etc. Even if the gov't doesn't directly tell doctors what they are allowed to earn, they will WITHOUT A DOUBT give maximum fee per services, while at the same time force them to take public option, effectively limiting pay.
I work in the health care industry, and it's already like this, and we are scared to death of what's coming. This will be the same as the gov't set pricing of the 30's.


It's good that you want discussion on the topic, and I welcome all points of view. I agree that the system needs fixing, but I don't agree that the current plan is the solution. I personally believe that if you limited punitive damages in lawsuits, and removed every single illegal resident, you'd get rid of at least 25% of the current price burden. Secondly, we should be encouraging interstate insurance competition. Thirdly, we need to remove the ER as the "free" stop. If an insurance offered an all-you-can eat plan for just local checkups and quick visits, I'd buy it in a second.

Yes, health care is expensive. So are cars, houses, and big flat screen TV's. If people are going to spend the 10 best years of their life becoming doctors, and going into some SERIOUS debt to do so, I believe they deserve to be well paid for their efforts. If people would prioritize and budget, saving money, than health insurance would not be a problem, would it?

quote Originally posted by aaronkoch: Response: 1. You will be able to "keep" your insurance, until anything at all changes. Then, you will have to take a new plan, which will have government regulation on it. More than likely, the public option will force many smaller insurance companies out of business, leaving you the public option to pick from. So yes, technically you will be able to pick what ever plan you want, as long as it's that one. 2. Not sure on this, but I'm pretty sure chemo is the last resort already for older patients as it's very hard on the body. I have no concrete evidence that existing coverages will be denied for elderly patients, so I will not refute this statement. 3. Illegal immigrants ALREADY get free healthcare. At the ER. Been to California lately? You seriously trying to tell me that coverage levels won't INCREASE from the already high burden? Riiighht... 4. Again, the death panels may or may not happen, I have no solid evidence either way. I can only speculate that with human nature the way it is, when the money runs out (and it will, remember CARS?) those that are no longer paying into the system will be eyed as the first to go. 5. The government is already setting wage limits on government subsidized industries, such as banks, investment houses, car companies, etc. Even if the gov't doesn't directly tell doctors what they are allowed to earn, they will WITHOUT A DOUBT give maximum fee per services, while at the same time force them to take public option, effectively limiting pay. I work in the health care industry, and it's already like this, and we are scared to death of what's coming. This will be the same as the gov't set pricing of the 30's. It's good that you want discussion on the topic, and I welcome all points of view. I agree that the system needs fixing, but I don't agree that the current plan is the solution. I personally believe that if you limited punitive damages in lawsuits, and removed every single illegal resident, you'd get rid of at least 25% of the current price burden. Secondly, we should be encouraging interstate insurance competition. Thirdly, we need to remove the ER as the "free" stop. If an insurance offered an all-you-can eat plan for just local checkups and quick visits, I'd buy it in a second. Yes, health care is expensive. So are cars, houses, and big flat screen TV's. If people are going to spend the 10 best years of their life becoming doctors, and going into some SERIOUS debt to do so, I believe they deserve to be well paid for their efforts. If people would prioritize and budget, saving money, than health insurance would not be a problem, would it?

People always seem to have $$$ for big boy toys, latest computer stuff, more vehicle than they need or can pay for, booze and drugs, but never quite enough $$ for health insurance or life insurance.
Strange how that is ain't it?

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-01-2009).]

Exactly. You can tell a man's priorities by how he spends his time and money.

I was going to address each point individually but Frontal Lobe already did a great job of it.


I do want to share with everyone what Dick Morris said about Obamacare:

http://www.newsmax.com/insi...09/08/22/251128.html

quote Dick Morris: Obamacare to Lead to Rationing Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:15 AM Political expert Dick Morris is warning that President Barack Obama's drive for healthcare reform will result in the rationing of treatment for America's elderly population. "How is Obama going to cover 50 million new people without any more doctors or nurses?" Morris said on the CBS "Early Show." "The answer is he is not. What that's going to mean is rationing, which primarily means that the elderly don't get the medical care they get now. ... "What [Obama is] saying is 'I'm going to cut reimbursement rates to doctors and hospitals.' If you cut reimbursement rates to doctors, you get shorter office visits and fewer office visits. If you cut them for MRIs, you get fewer MRIs. What this is ultimately going to lead to is fewer and fewer doctors because their income is being cut, more and more patients because the coverage is being expanded." Although Morris said he wasn't a fan of the Democrats' plan to reform America's healthcare system, he does agree that the system needs to be changed. "I'm in favor of covering everyone, but the way to do that is expand the number of doctors and the number of nurses," he said. "Expand the supply before you expand the demand." © 2009 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

I heard Dick speaking on the Hugh Hewitt show and he has a very powerful argument. We already cover the elderly, poor and children's healthcare. That means the people that are left uncovered are the ones that choose not to get healthcare because they are too lazy to fill out the paperwork to get it for free or they can afford it but choose not to get it.

So we are going to add all of these people into the healthcare system without expanding the number of doctors and nurses. We already have a shortage of nurses. It is going to be even worse when we add 50 million new people to the system.

If you don't think there will be rationing, you are fooling yourself.

Here's an example of your typical liberal who thinks the government should take care of you. A women I work with loves the government health plan because she was complaining she can't afford lowe's plan. I reminded her that she has a large home..a 35 foot boat...a motor home and at least 6 vehicles. She chose these items over health care so it's not my problem as a taxpayer to pay for her bad choices. They don't like to hear that..for some reason they believe all this is gonna be so much cheaper to have the government running it. You can debunk all the things that are or aren't in this health care bill but it doesn't change the simple fact that government never does things cheaper then the private sector. If they get involved the red tape and costs go up and the benefits go down. They've never proven other wise and this is far to much money to take the chance that this may be the first.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: People always seem to have $$$ for big boy toys, latest computer stuff, more vehicle than they need or can pay for, booze and drugs, but never quite enough $$ for health insurance or life insurance. Strange how that is ain't it?

Part of my American dream, and up until recently was a good job that had paid benefits. It was part of the reward for working hard and putting your time in.
Isn't that what you work for? Or were you not referring to me? (Avarage Joe American)

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Part of my American dream, and up until recently was a good job that had paid benefits. It was part of the reward for working hard and putting your time in. Isn't that what you work for? (Avarage Joe American)

Putting your time in isn't enough. You have to help them be financially successful, so they have money to reward you with a good income.

PART of that income will be given as benefits, such as health care.

But this idea that somehow because someone employs you, that somehow they are responsible for your health care is ridiculous.

They owe you a salary. How it is divided up should be up to YOU. You want more cash? Then no benefits. You willing to take less cash, then your employer can go out and try to get a deal for you on health care (or whatever benefit).

single payer aka government insurance can be way cheaper
because no stockholders to pay
and limited overhead with no big bonuses to the leadership
less rules and less paperwork too
every private CORP needs a profit

the death panel BIG LIES is a interesting point
every private CORP now doing health ins. has them NOW
as they can't give unlimited care and turn a profit too
but the CORPs do not call them death panels
but medi-care and caid do not have then now
so keep your CORPs ins and keep your death panel too

ten years of paying for schools
BS many get scholarships now others get grants or low interest loans
and the intern and resident years are PAID JOBS maybe not as much as the doc would like, but PAID
so a max of 7 years to pay for school for some but not most
every doc is way over paid now tooo many retire early with millions
and no cuts to punitive damages if they screw up they should pay for the damage they do


------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 09-01-2009).]

Here is the biggest lie about ObamaCare: Government involvement will reduce healthcare costs.

Yeah, the federal gov't is really adept at making things cost-effective and efficient, right?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Putting your time in isn't enough. You have to help them be financially successful, so they have money to reward you with a good income. PART of that income will be given as benefits, such as health care. But this idea that somehow because someone employs you, that somehow they are responsible for your health care is ridiculous. They owe you a salary. How it is divided up should be up to YOU. You want more cash? Then no benefits. You willing to take less cash, then your employer can go out and try to get a deal for you on health care (or whatever benefit).

I enable them to make a profit. When I hired on benefits was part of the deal. If they didn't provide me with health care I would find a policy and then ask for that much in a raise and continue looking for work until I found it.
Never have I taken a full time job that didn't offer some kind of health care benefit. It was offered and expected but never demanded and I didnt expect someone from another company pay for my health care. When my job ends I dont expect my health care to continue without me paying for it.

I see this going two ways, we will wise up and chuck the health care plan out the window or we will end up with no health care to speak of.

Sort like when everyone voted to have a train setup to take people from one end of the state to another. It sounded like a great idea until they started filling in the details, then the state had to call a special vote and it was scrapped.

The President is on record as saying he thinks that elderly persons should just learn to live with their conditions that come with age...

The logic seems to be that they're going to cost more to take care of, and they've already outlived their usefulness, so why not spend the money on people who are going to be more productive...nevermind that the system has been carried for the last sixty years by those who have been paying into it...fuggem, they're not gonna be around long enough for their lawsuits to see fruition anyway, so we can delay them in the courts/healthcare system long enough so they won't be a problem for very long...

It reminds me of another government whose people were wildly enthusiastic about their new leader, who had some radical ideas about how to fix things, and nobody was really paying too much attention to how things were getting done...

Do a Google search on eugenics, and all it implies...and who's been associated with these same practices in the past...

What health care bill are you referring to, House or Senate version?
Both ain't even on the floor yet.
A million changes are yet to come before it gets to a vote.
Then before it goes to the pres they will shovel so much pork crap on, that it won't be able to carry the load.
No one knows what this monster will look or act like in the end, but you are asking every future generation to sleep with it.
NO THANKS!

quote Originally posted by ray b: single payer aka government insurance can be way cheaper because no stockholders to pay and limited overhead with no big bonuses to the leadership less rules and less paperwork too every private CORP needs a profit ten years of paying for schools BS many get scholarships now others get grants or low interest loans and the intern and resident years are PAID JOBS maybe not as much as the doc would like, but PAID so a max of 7 years to pay for school for some but not most every doc is way over paid now tooo many retire early with millions and no cuts to punitive damages if they screw up they should pay for the damage they do

Oh my goodness.

Government insurance CAN be way cheaper because no profit to provide to stockholders. AND YET THEY STILL MAKE IT MORE EXPENSIVE!

I mean, you are right to point that out to be able grasp the DEGREE of ineptitude that is a government run program.


No stockholders to pay. Oh, yeah, but there ARE those bill sponsors that need to get paid--with PORK. Uh, we call that negotiation and compromise in the congress. Yeah, we know.


Less rules and paperwork!!! Yes. The U.S. government is KNOWN for having LESS rules and paperwork.

Forget about projecting the future. Let's compare what insurance the government currently DOES run versus the insurance industry. In my day to day job, do I have MORE or LESS rules and paperwork with medicare versus private insurance?

Let me assure you from someone with 2 DECADES of experience with both.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS MORE RULES AND PAPERWORK. WAY MORE.


I mean, if you are THAT far off on an issue in which there is abundant EXPERIENCE, you really disqualify yourself from any serious consideration. Really. Less paperwork and rules. Wow.


Regarding medical students, forget all these supposed scholarships and grants and low interest loans. Even accounting for that, the average medical student graduates with more than $125,000 in debt. AVERAGE.


Regarding the internship and resident years, in 1985 I got paid $21,000 per year (but WITH health insurance benefits!) for my average 110 hour work week. Yeah. We get PAID.

In today's dollars, what would that be? $35,000 per year?


EVERY doc is way overpaid. You know. I'm not going to be nice about this one. You are just plain STUPID.
MANY docs are way over paid. To be sure. But a family practitioner or a pediatrician or an internal medicine doctor making $150,000 per year, which is highly typical, being overpaid. For you to say something like that is STUPID.

quote Originally posted by ray b: single payer aka government insurance can be way cheaper because no stockholders to pay and limited overhead with no big bonuses to the leadership less rules and less paperwork too every private CORP needs a profit the death panel BIG LIES is a interesting point every private CORP now doing health ins. has them NOW as they can't give unlimited care and turn a profit too but the CORPs do not call them death panels but medi-care and caid do not have then now so keep your CORPs ins and keep your death panel too ten years of paying for schools BS many get scholarships now others get grants or low interest loans and the intern and resident years are PAID JOBS maybe not as much as the doc would like, but PAID so a max of 7 years to pay for school for some but not most every doc is way over paid now tooo many retire early with millions and no cuts to punitive damages if they screw up they should pay for the damage they do

I've got $$$ that says ray b is under 25.

quote Originally posted by ray b: single payer aka government insurance can be way cheaper because no stockholders to pay and limited overhead with no big bonuses to the leadership

Wait - you actually said the government option can be cheaper because of LIMITED OVERHEAD?!?!?!

quote Originally posted by aaronkoch: I've got $$$ that says ray b is under 25.

I'll take that bet. I'll say he is over 50. No doubt he lived through the 60's. Actually I'll bet he still thinks he is in the 60's.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 09-01-2009).]

Sorry, pressed quote instead of edit.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 09-01-2009).]

lol you are a funny guy Ray. Please name one thing the government does that has less red tape and is cheaper then the private sector.

A month or so a go when it was the aniversery of the moon landing he was chatting with the original astronauts and they were talking to him about how we should be looking at going to mars. His response was he thinks the best chance of that happening would be for the private sector to take over nasa because that always lowers costs and red tape. NO **** !! And you wonder why people with common sense our so against the government taking over health care!

you want a way to bring down health care costs how bought tort reform..or maybe get the drug companies under control.

Here is RayB's view of Obama.
http://sendables.jibjab.com...als/hes_barack_obama
Too bad this is far away from reality except for the smoking part.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 09-01-2009).]

http://www.factcheck.org

Read it. There is much opinion in it. Since the opinion CONSISTENTLY arrives on the side of placing the best possible construct on the issues in DEFENSE of the bill, it is pretty obvious there is bias by the writers. Many of the "defenses" are as flimsy as the assertions they are defending against.

Helpful to read it but obviously biased, too.

quote Originally posted by aaronkoch: I've got $$$ that says ray b is under 25.

I was 25 in 1975
pm me for my address to send those $$$ to
------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 09-02-2009).]

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: ... it is pretty obvious there is bias by the writers.

In this case, the existence of bias appears to be solely in the mind of the beholder. You are certainly welcome to refute their analysis, point by point, with any facts you can produce. Until then, it is just your unsubstantiated opinion ... no more, no less.

quote Originally posted by ray b: what does a government do better schools

That one is real funny.
Public schools verses private schools?

I have a good job. For how long, no one knows but the benefits are good and the health care is the best I have ever had. I pay half the costs for my family and me, the company pays the other half and it is affordable. I have never been denied a claim. I police my doctor's bills, lab bills, etc. and many times I catch mistakes - over charging, double dipping, etc. I relay these decrepancies to the insurance folks and they in turn get it cleaned up. I realize that most insurance companies have thier own internal audit departments but I take some responsibility to keep the Doc's and the Labs and the clinics honest and make sure that I am billed for only services rendered. That's my little effort to keep my health care costs down. I do not need the Government any where near my personal life. I do not need the Government "deciding" what is best for me. I pay my fair share of taxes and honestly can not imagine having to pay more. Especially when any tax increase related to paying for any type of health care reform is not acceptable to me. The Government talks about funding this reform through the elimination of non essential programs. I say BS. Government controlled health care is a non essential program.

If the Government wants to save money in health care, they should do something about the never ending tide of illegal immigration flowing into this country. The illegals come here because they know the US Government will give them what they need to survive which is far more than they recieve in thier home country. Stop the freebies for non US citizens and they will quit coming here. Police the fraud in Social Security. Like the family of 3 here in El Paso that are not legal US citizens but have 9 SSN's and collect 9 SS Checks every month plus get medicare/medicade, food stamps, free this, free that, etc. etc. I am not saying close the borders rather control them. Immigrants coming to this country is part of what the US is all about. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Just do it in a legal manner. If the Government wants to reform something, reform immigration laws - now that's something that I would not mind payng more taxes for.

The Drug companies need some sort of regulation as well. I am a diabetic and my prescription drugs cost about 200.00 a month. My health care plan uses a "company owned" pharmacy and I pay 10.00 for each 30 day scrip so my out of pocket expenses are low and my actual cost is around 40.00 a month and the pharmacy fills the scrips using the generic form of the dugs. Now I can walk across the border to Jaurez and buy the same, name brand drugs and get a 90 day supply of each for 50.00 total. It's cheaper for me, the insurance company and my doc likes that I am using the name brand drugs versus the generic. To recap, 200.00 a month for generic scrips in the US versus 50.00 every 3 months for name brand scrips in Mexico. Things that make you go "Hmmm"!

What ever happend to the Obama campaign promise to reduce the cost of Government by eliminating Government programs that were non essential or not working? Looks like he is doing just the opposite. How much money did it cost the taxpayers for Obama to spend a week on the island? In these hard economic times, I can't afford to take my family of 4 out in the back yard for one night in a tent. Sacrifices need to be made and I believe in the old "lead by example" thing. Obama and all the politicians need to sacrifice along with the rest of us. If Obamacare was mandatory for politicians and public officials, it would not be anywhere near as popular as it is to those cramming it down the public's throat.

How about this. If health care reform is so important to so many people, put it to the public for a vote. Do not leave it up to the 60 or so Dems that Obama says are in his pocket and have absolutely no care as to what is best for the public and only care to further thier pocket lining. Let "We the People" decide what is best for us. Where does the Government involvement in our personal lives end? It seems to me that the only people that are for Obamacare are those that stand to benefit from it. Problem is that thier gain is my loss. I am not reponsible for my neighbor that keeps pumping illegitamte children out, can't keep a job cause she chooses to be irresponsible, always asks me for spare change so she can go buy cigs and beer instead of food and necessities for her kids, yada yada yada........Why should I pay for her mistakes? I forgot to mention that she is not a legal US citizen but her illegitimate kids are. So she gets a free ride on you the taxpayer's back already. If you think this is an isolated incident, you have your head buried in the sand. Visit any border town and you will see it countless times. Heck, you can go to Liberal Kansas and see it there. Someone above posted they thought we could save 25% if we dealt wth the illegals getting free health care. I believe it is closer to 50 or 60% maybe more. I can give you a thousand examples that have occured right here in El Paso in the last 5 years.

For example:

A police Chief in Jaurez was shot in an assasination attempt. To protect him during his hospital stay, they brought him to El Paso. The city of El Paso and the US Border patrol provided the security at the hospital. He was in ICU for over a week so the hospital was "shut down". The city and the hospital passsed the bill on to the US Government who in turn paid for everything for this guy's health care and protection. It was later found that the reason there was an assasination attempt made on this guy was because he had double crossed the drug cartel he was working for. 4 months later, his head was found in a styrofoam cooler in the front of the Juarez police station. What did that cost "you" the taxpayer?

What about the 20 year old illegal that was illegally riding a fireght train, fell off and was run over by the wheels of the train severing both his feet. A railroad employee found him laying along side the tracks early in the morning. The railroad employee put him in the back of his truck and took him to the US border patrol outpost. When he rang the bell for entry, he was asked over the intercom what his business was. He stated that he had a young man that had been hit by a train that needed an ambulance. The border patrol agent came out to check it out and when he realized that this kid was illegal, he told the railroad employee to take him to town to the local hospital - and that if he took posession of the young man, then the border patrol would be responsible for all his medical care. The railroad employee rushed the young man off to the local hospital who in turn wanted to turn him away. He eventually got medical attention. Now let me say this. I think that denying him medical care was inhumane of the border patrol and the local hospital and is criminal in itself but that is not the end of the story. This young man was not stupid. He got himself a lawyer in the US and got a whole team of them in Mexico. He has several law suits in US courts against the railroad, the broder patrol and the local hospital. Even if he does not win any of his law suits, how much has this cost the US taxpayer already. What will it cost in the end. This guy is still under a US doctors care who is undoubtably billing the US Government. Because he is under this doctors care, and the lawsuits, the US Government is allowing him to stay in the US at the taxpayers expense plus we are paying the bills for his Mexican lawyers. Under our current system, an illegal "non" US citizen has more rights and has better access to legal and medical care than those of us that work our butts off everyday, pay our taxes and provide our own way in society.

This is wrong and "we the people" need to wake up and take action. Vote out the bums that are not representing your best interests. Put someone else in there and if they do not do what we want, get them out the next round. Keep doing that until we clean out the deadwood. I could go on and on - but I won't. Viva la Revolution!

Member of the Angry Mob!

Do any of you think that insurance companies don't already ration health care?!? Every time they delay or deny payment for a medical treatment that somebody needs, THAT'S RATIONING!!!

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Do any of you think that insurance companies don't already ration health care?!? Every time they delay or deny payment for a medical treatment that somebody needs, THAT'S RATIONING!!!

Hell yes they do!
You can sue them over it, but you can't sue the feds unless they let you.
The whole system needs overhauling, but I wouldn't let the government baby sit my children, let alone trust them with their heath care.
There are plenty of real smart people that if brought together could do a good job of overhauling it, but none of them are politicians.
Even if they had all of the answers handed to them, they couldn't pass the regulations without bending to the special interests and the lobbyists.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Do any of you think that insurance companies don't already ration health care?!? Every time they delay or deny payment for a medical treatment that somebody needs, THAT'S RATIONING!!!

They sure don't ration anything for me. They test me to the point of OMG let me go!
I have very good care and worth every damn penny. I wish it was cheaper but Unfortunatly the real reason it costs what it foes is because people are sue happy opportunists and Lawyers groups pay off the government so it won't change.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: They sure don't ration anything for me. They test me to the point of OMG let me go! I have very good care and worth every damn penny. I wish it was cheaper but Unfortunatly the real reason it costs what it foes is because people are sue happy opportunists and Lawyers groups pay off the government so it won't change.

Because it didn't happen to you, that means it never happens? You have been lucky... so far. As for tort reform? Keep that in mind next time some quack misdiagnoses or mistreats you or someone you love. Even if you don't feel compelled to sue to get revenge, you might still be faced with millions of dollars in medical bills for the rest of your life. Without sueing, how ya gonna get that kind of money?

P.S. I also am happy with my current HMO. Doesn't mean they couldn't use some competition to keep them honest, though.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I was 25 in 1975 pm me for my address to send those $$$ to

That makes me the winner.

quote Originally posted by the smart handsome one: I'll take that bet. I'll say he is over 50. No doubt he lived through the 60's. Actually I'll bet he still thinks he is in the 60's.

Jim

quote Originally posted by partfiero: That one is real funny. Public schools verses private schools?

lol all ray did was name a bunch of stuff and say it's better. Guys like him our why were in this situation. You don't want to compare the joke public schools are compared to private schools. I've had my children in both.

quote Originally posted by firstfiero: I got to agree with pokey on this . I've been with and without insurance. If you have insurance they will test you for everything lol

testing is cheap
the real cost is in some treatments esp cancer and other life ending threats
almost all private med ins is capped in dollar amounts per year and per illness
get stuck with a low cap + high cost illness and you get to go broke

fed's medi-care and caid is uncapped
and will pay for the pre-existing illness's
that damm few private ins will touch at all

the neo-conned should be re-named
THE CORPS-CONNED
as they do follow the best for the BIG INS CORP'S LINES and LIES

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?