I have always thought that if i was being mugged, car jacked, burglarized, whatever... As long as I didn't feel that my life or family was in danger, that your life was worth more than whatever I had that you were trying to take from me. And I would never draw my weapon.
Oh, don't get me started!! I have wanted to kill a couple of people for years now They had better pray very hard that I don't contract some kind of terminal illness which would give me just enough time to do it, before I die
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05:07 AM
87antuzzi Member
Posts: 11151 From: Surrounded by corn. Registered: Feb 2009
The fit survive. Some people find justification to steal from society. It's not just money, often its other values that are stolen?
I'd have to say it would depend upon what was stolen. My value system is my own, but commonly held. Herd mentality really, but the herd seldom looses to it's own members. It looses to outside predators, if the predator dies , trying to steal from the herd? The fit survives Of course your mileage may vary .......
------------------ Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto. Turning white on top, like owner. Leaks a little, like owner. Doesn't smoke....... OK, we're trying to quit.
The fit survive. Some people find justification to steal from society. It's not just money, often its other values that are stolen?
I'd have to say it would depend upon what was stolen. My value system is my own, but commonly held. Herd mentality really, but the herd seldom looses to it's own members. It looses to outside predators, if the predator dies , trying to steal from the herd? The fit survives Of course your mileage may vary .......
Yep, your mileage WILL vary, depending where you are positioned within the herd. The protected, at the innermost hub will get good mileage. Those on the outer periphery--those who do the protecting, will get less mileage, but won't live their lives in the shadow of others' courage and conviction.
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05:57 AM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13620 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
Being prepared to kill and wanting to kill are not the same thing.
Catching someone breaking into my car in the daytime while parked in a public place would warrant me holding them until the cops show up, if they resist with force trying to run I would let them run. The same situation in a secluded spot would be handled a lot differently, they had better start running before I see them or they are not getting the chance to come back. Fear of getting arrested would make them brave and they would be more likely to hurt or kill me or my family if there were no witnesses. I would not hold back. Catching someone breaking into my house in the middle of the night would get them killed, if you are bold enough to come in my house then expect the worse this is Florida.
Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:
Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm; Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 08-22-2009).]
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07:27 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
I would kill pretty quickly in self defense if I thought someone was trying to take my life or the life of another, but that's not the only kind of killing.
What would it take for you to go out and hunt someone down and kill them? Just stone cold kill them. Or even make it last a long time before you killed them?
I can't think of very much that would make me do that. If someone were to intentionally (as opposed to accidentally) kill my wife or son and the law didn't take care f them, I would. Without a doubt I would. I wouldn't care about the consequences, it would be something I would have to do. That would probably apply to my dad as well.
One of the single most heinous crimes I can thin of is rape. If my wife, or family or close friends were ever raped, and I knew who did it, the law wouldn't get a chance to deal with them. They'd be put down like the animals they are. Not slowly, not torture. On their knees and in the back of the head. They did it once they'll never do it again. Something like that would simply cause me to snap and again, I wouldn't care if I spent the rest of my life in prison.
Other than that, I can't think of anything that would make me cross that line Buddy was talking about, but those two things would.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:
Being prepared to kill and wanting to kill are not the same thing.
Catching someone breaking into my car in the daytime while parked in a public place would warrant me holding them until the cops show up, if they resist with force trying to run I would let them run. The same situation in a secluded spot would be handled a lot differently, they had better start running before I see them or they are not getting the chance to come back. Fear of getting coughed would make them brave and they would be more likely to hurt or kill me or my family. I would not hold back. Catching someone breaking into my house in the middle of the night would get them killed, if you are bold enough to come in my house then expect the worse.
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09:24 AM
Finally_Mine_86_GT Member
Posts: 4809 From: Hyde Park, New York Registered: Sep 2006
Steal from me, or hurt my family and i'll explode. Hurt my son and i will consciously hunt you down and torture you for weeks till i finally drop you off at a hospital so i can do it again in a few weeks. Then repeat these steps about 2 or 3 times till i get bored, then i'm sorry but it's gotta end. My son is the line of me becoming psychotic.
Hurt my fiero and i'll calmly destroy either your face or if you run away i'll just hunt down your car and torch it!
Yeah... i'm a little mental i guess, But otherwise a nice guy. My closest friends call me "the nicest a-hole you'll ever meet"
------------------ "And remember: amateurs built the ark .... professionals built the Titanic."
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09:40 AM
hklvette Member
Posts: 1439 From: Roanoke, VA Registered: Nov 2007
Lets see. from a defensive perspective, if you break into my home, you'll be answering 12ga. slugs. Once I can afford to pick up an LCP and get a CCP, if you present clear danger to my life or those around me (even strangers), you're going down.
As for purposely hunting someone down, rape/ murder of a very close friend warrants that extreme of an action.
I don't think I could sit down and plan on killing someone, they would rally need killing and it wouldn't take much planning I would just walk up and shoot them twice in the chest and once in the head. I probably wouldn't even use a gun, just walk up behind them and cut their windpipe at the neck because it would be available at the time, going and getting a gun would take planning and in that state of mind I wouldn't be making plans just reacting.
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12:03 PM
MidEngineManiac Member
Posts: 29566 From: Some unacceptable view Registered: Feb 2007
Flat-out stab/shoot/strangle somebody---It would have to be a face-to-face, life and death, type situation.
Steal from me or my friends, hurt somebody I care about, something like that.......
Well, lets just say that there is a VERY good reason to have and know people with esoteric knowledge. Its NOT like fatal accidents have never happened 6 months or a year later without anybody ever laying a hand on the thief.
One of my favorite quotes (dont even remember what movie it came from) is " If you want forgiveness, talk to God."
2 guys came up to me and a buddy as we were getting in his car, one pulls a gun on me, i reacted in the dream towards the gun and managed to bend his arm and take the gun out of his hand and i turned the gun on them and actually started to click the trigger but the gun was not firing. I look at the butt of the gun and there was no clip in it. My friend then pops his trunk to get his gun and im telling him SHOOT THEM SHOOT THEM and he does not so i take the empty gun and start pistol whipping the would be robbers with the gun they tried to rob us with
Being prepared to kill and wanting to kill are not the same thing.
Catching someone breaking into my car in the daytime while parked in a public place would warrant me holding them until the cops show up, if they resist with force trying to run I would let them run.
You are a better man then I. If they resisted, id not hesitate in taking action.
If its a survival situation, be it protection of myself and family ( or even a stranger being attacked ), or if society broke down ( food and shelter ), i also wouldn't hesitate.
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01:12 PM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25019 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
It depends... I'm not one for retribution, because more often than not, the law takes care of them in it's own way.
An example I have is from when I was about 19 years old. The kids I hungout with were not the greatest role models. I never did anything bad, personally, but some of my friends used drugs, etc. I stayed on the straight path, and eventually I grew apart from them because they stayed the same, but I grew up.
Never the less, when I was 19, my pride and joy was basically my 1987 Fiero SE / V6. This one kid who was "friends" of mine, became insanely jealous of me. It wasn't through anything I did to him, but he just eventually became jealous of me. I came from a good home, I was starting to do well in my career (at the time, I worked tech support making $12 dollars an hour and that seemed like an amazing job for most of us). I didn't brag about anything, but he just grew an insane resentment towards me.
He snuck into my apartment complex one night, keyed all three of my Fieros (I don't know why I owned three Fieros then) and loosened the lug nuts on one of the wheels on my 85 Fiero GT (almost caused me to crash).
Another friend told me he confessed to him that he had done it and that he would back me up if I wanted to press charges. So I called the police and wanted to know what I would need to do if i wanted to press charges. I also confirmed from them that because of the total damage to the paint and the loosening of the wheel lugs that it would end up being a felony, and some other kind of charge (willful injury or something, I don't remember).
Anyway, I knew that the kid's mom had died from a drug overdose (she was a crack whore) and his dad was addicted to heroine...
So what it came down to was this... I had to decide if the damage to my car was worth ruining this kid's life, probably for good... I figured that once this kid ended up in jail, that was proabbly it for him and it would have resulted in life long crime, or at least a permenant felony on his record.
In the end, I told him what kind of charges he was facing, but that because I felt sorry for him, I wasn't going to press charges, but that if I ever saw him again, I would re-consider. (I was twice his size too, so I wasn't afraid of him).
About 10-11 years later, I get an e-mail from an old friend who hung out with that crowd, that one of our mutual friends (who never grew up) died of a drug overdose and was having a funeral. So I went to it to pay my respects, and that "kid" now 28-29 was also there too. He came up to me (I didn't recognize him) and he talked to me and apologized continuously for everything he had done and said that he was just a messed up kid and that he felt aweful for what he had done. He then asked me if I still had the Fiero, and I said yes, and he felt even worse. As it would end up though... he straightened himself out, got a job and was in a career that he was proud of.
So... I think I made the right decision. Although, my Fiero still has the scratch across it's side. Most of it was able to be buffed out, but the front right panel is messed up.
As far as killing someone though... if someone breaks into my house at night, and I had a gun (which I don't), I'd make a couple of quick decisions.
If the guy had a gun himself, and I could clearly tell it wasn't a police officer or anything, then I'd shoot him right in the chest, no hesitation.
If he had a knife, I'd shoot him in the leg, or the stomach.
If he was unarmed, then I'd warn him that he needs to get the hell out of my house. If he then lunged at me or refused, he would get shot in the stomach or the chest, depending upon how I perceived his next actions would be.
I'm a Marksman (civilian), so I'm familiar with guns.
I have a family, wife and a 7 month old daughter, and I'm not willing to compromise THEIR safety for that of the robber / mugger (whatever).
I don't intentionally want to kill anyone, but my concern for them takes a back seat to my daughter and wife.
So what it came down to was this... I had to decide if the damage to my car was worth ruining this kid's life, probably for good...
*snip*
Yes it was worth pressing charges. Who knows what he would do to the next guy he was jealous of. Rape and kill his wife? Burn down his house with him in it? He should have been put away forever.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: As far as killing someone though... if someone breaks into my house at night, and I had a gun (which I don't), I'd make a couple of quick decisions.
If the guy had a gun himself, and I could clearly tell it wasn't a police officer or anything, then I'd shoot him right in the chest, no hesitation.
If he had a knife, I'd shoot him in the leg, or the stomach.
If he was unarmed, then I'd warn him that he needs to get the hell out of my house. If he then lunged at me or refused, he would get shot in the stomach or the chest, depending upon how I perceived his next actions would be.
You would not have time to put that much thought into it. There are plenty of marksmen that when put in a situation where they are under distress they had a hard time just hitting a target. You ever wonder why you always hear about a cop shooting at or hitting someone 7 times and wondering why, they want to make sure because in that situation wounding the guy will get you killed. What to find out then next time you go out shooting run a mile, then sprint the last 100 yards to the range and see if you can hit the target before your heart rate comes back down below 130.
Not a jab at you as I would like to think I could do the same but thats why you train to shoot center mass and not one to the leg. And never underestimate and "unarmed" man
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: As far as killing someone though... if someone breaks into my house at night, and I had a gun (which I don't), I'd make a couple of quick decisions.
Unfortunately, that second of 'decisions' can get you killed. if someone breaks in to your house, they are a threat and you should instinctively react. Chances are that in the 'heat of battle' in such a environment you wont kill them anyway, but you will stop them in their tracks.
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03:03 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
An example I have is from when I was about 19 years old. The kids I hungout with were not the greatest role models. Never the less, when I was 19, my pride and joy was basically my 1987 Fiero SE / V6. This one kid who was "friends" of mine, became insanely jealous of me.He snuck into my apartment complex one night, keyed all three of my Fieros (I don't know why I owned three Fieros then) and loosened the lug nuts on one of the wheels on my 85 Fiero GT (almost caused me to crash).
Another friend told me he confessed to him that he had done it and that he would back me up if I wanted to press charges. So I called the police and wanted to know what I would need to do if i wanted to press charges. I also confirmed from them that because of the total damage to the paint and the loosening of the wheel lugs that it would end up being a felony, and some other kind of charge (willful injury or something, I don't remember).In the end, I told him what kind of charges he was facing, but that because I felt sorry for him, I wasn't going to press charges, but that if I ever saw him again, I would re-consider. (I was twice his size too, so I wasn't afraid of him).
About 10-11 years later, I get an e-mail from an old friend who hung out with that crowd, that one of our mutual friends (who never grew up) died of a drug overdose and was having a funeral. So I went to it to pay my respects, and that "kid" now 28-29 was also there too. He came up to me (I didn't recognize him) and he talked to me and apologized continuously for everything he had done and said that he was just a messed up kid and that he felt aweful for what he had done. He then asked me if I still had the Fiero, and I said yes, and he felt even worse. As it would end up though... he straightened himself out, got a job and was in a career that he was proud of.
So... I think I made the right decision.
Dude, that was a good lesson and a happy ending for the guy who grew up (It would've been nice if he slipped you $100 or so for the troubles he caused).
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03:34 PM
greasemonke50613 Member
Posts: 1005 From: Cedar Falls, Iowa, US Registered: Mar 2009
for me: harm any of my family, or my son. or catch me on the wrong day and simply touch my car, or gently tap me on the arm, i will instinctively choke you. Army BCT taught me hand to hand combatives, and as much as i try not to, i end up using almost everything they showed/taught me in the heat of the battle. it's not a decision, it's a reaction. i am not one to fight, anad generally will wait until you have me where you think you have me pinned and i cant do anything, then it's all over. i always make sure i have a way out. now hand me a weapon, and come near me with intentions to harm, you wont have any kneecaps left and i will make sure your pinky toes are gone too. can't keep your balance w/o your pinky toes.
As for me-- I could've killed several offenders, but I took the alternative route. One episode; thieves were trying to break into my condo 25 or so years ago. I heard the two young kids talking about how hard it was to opening the sliding patio door (I had one of those security locks on the corner--- apparently he didn't see it).
Awakened, my first thought was to flee with my keys towards the front door, but I couldn't find the darn keys to open the dead bolt door (you needed a key to get out) so I un hooked the front window and went to my neighbor's condo to call the police. Foolishly, I came back to the bedroom and this kid was still at it---10-20 minutes; rocking the patio door back n' forth! I went back to the kitchen and got a big, long, sharp butcher's knife--- yeah, you're dead now sucker!
I thought about it for a few seconds and decided to get heavy blunt object (I forgot what it was-- maybe a baseball bat). Anyway, the kid is hard at it-- rocking the patio window side-to-side and now separating the frame from the drywall. I decided to shout and scare them (since these guys were tearing down my condo).
The would be thieves initially ran, but decided to walk the rest of the way back to the get-a-way car that was parked on the other street. I saw them measly walking like nothing ever happened-- thus I gave chase with some type of heavy long object in my hand (stupid for chasing them--- I know). Anyway, I chased them-- through a field and over a fence (actually, I hit the wood fence with the object to scare them as the last guy jumped the fence).
Comically, I was hollowing like a werewolf with no shoes, no shirt, and baggy pants, hehe. I took the short cut and block them off from entering their car that was parked around the block. Some how I knew it was their car parked (it looked out of place or something) so I sat on the car-- smacking my hand with the blunt object taunting them to, “come on out.” Twenty to thirty minutes later.... the werewolf (that I was) started to get cold. You see it was in Fresno, CA during the winter and the temp was 30 degrees or so.
A few of the other neighbors heard about what was going on so I ask the young guy to stand guard-- for the thieves are over there hiding in the bushes and I need to put some clothes on. During this interchanging of the guards the thieves took off speeding in their car. The police (Fresno's finest ) arrive 40-minutes later and they never caught the thieves. I gave the description of the car, but I didn't write down the plates (I was coming back once I got my pants on).
Conclusion. I could’ve killed at least the first thief and or maybe the second too, for would've waited until he was completely inside before stabbing them, but who knows the outcome could've been me being killed (at the time I didn't know they didn't have weapons). Either way, these guys did have a second chance at life. I know one thing; they must be laughing about it for years.... a black guy chasing them while hollowing like a werewolf.
------------------
"I drive modified Fieros- anything less would be uncivilized."
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04:26 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16228 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I have some ideas, like defending my life or the lives of loved ones... but since I've never faced that situation I cannot honestly say how I'd react. I know how I'd like to react, but I don't know if I would cross that line in the moment.
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04:51 PM
PFF
System Bot
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Generally, I wouldnt hesitate to kill someone if my or someone else is in great danger of injury or death. I bend the rules a little when someone is stealing from me. I dont care if its a $2.00 whatever in my cars console. If they thought their life is worth the risk to take it, Ill take them up on it without any problem whatsoever.
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04:53 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: As far as killing someone though... if someone breaks into my house at night, and I had a gun (which I don't), I'd make a couple of quick decisions.
If the guy had a gun himself, and I could clearly tell it wasn't a police officer or anything, then I'd shoot him right in the chest, no hesitation.
If he had a knife, I'd shoot him in the leg, or the stomach.
If he was unarmed, then I'd warn him that he needs to get the hell out of my house. If he then lunged at me or refused, he would get shot in the stomach or the chest, depending upon how I perceived his next actions would be.
I'm a Marksman (civilian), so I'm familiar with guns.
I have a family, wife and a 7 month old daughter, and I'm not willing to compromise THEIR safety for that of the robber / mugger (whatever).
I don't intentionally want to kill anyone, but my concern for them takes a back seat to my daughter and wife.
If you know a local cop, lawyer or the like ask them if the next time they go down to Hogan’s Ally if you can go.
Marks man or not, when someone confronts you, you do not have time to, “take a deep breath, let half out, site and squeeze the trigger.”
quote
Originally posted by madcurl: rocking the patio door back n' forth! I went back to the kitchen and got a big, long, sharp butcher's knife--- yeah, you're dead now sucker!
I thought about it for a few seconds and decided to get heavy blunt object (I forgot what it was-- maybe a baseball bat).
Never bring a knife or bat to a gun fight. You were lucky, lucky to still be alive yourself. You really didn’t know if these people were armed.
When confronted in a situation like described use the police tactic.
If the perp is unarmed, use a night stick, or bat in your case.
If the perp has a knife use your gun.
Always confront the aggressor with superior firepower.
Aim for center mass, and keep squeezing that trigger until they go down, or stop moving, or you run out of bullets.
The idea of going back to jail doesn’t bother me, Dieing or having someone I love die does.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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04:59 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I will never aim a gun at anyone with the intent to wound them. I only shoot at them if I intend to kill them. Someone just on my property acting suspiciously may get a shot in the air warning. Chambering a shotgun is also usually enough to send them running.
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05:11 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I would kill pretty quickly in self defense if I thought someone was trying to take my life or the life of another, but that's not the only kind of killing.
What would it take for you to go out and hunt someone down and kill them? Just stone cold kill them. Or even make it last a long time before you killed them?
I can't think of very much that would make me do that. If someone were to intentionally (as opposed to accidentally) kill my wife or son and the law didn't take care f them, I would. Without a doubt I would. I wouldn't care about the consequences, it would be something I would have to do. That would probably apply to my dad as well.
One of the single most heinous crimes I can thin of is rape. If my wife, or family or close friends were ever raped, and I knew who did it, the law wouldn't get a chance to deal with them. They'd be put down like the animals they are. Not slowly, not torture. On their knees and in the back of the head. They did it once they'll never do it again. Something like that would simply cause me to snap and again, I wouldn't care if I spent the rest of my life in prison.
Other than that, I can't think of anything that would make me cross that line Buddy was talking about, but those two things would.
John Stricker
Amen!
Sounds totally reasonable to me. I feel the same way.
I have been in many bad situations,, I have taken actions many on this site would not,,I was a very vengeful person,previously, I have let somethings pass and others stewed for months and acted where I could Never do any thing that will land you in Jail,,I,ve spent a lot of time in Jail,, avoid this at all cost (bail out) real jail time is not like the time spent for minor offenses or driving offenses
use common sense even when the anger is recent Shooting someone is more serious than many think,,this can lead to unexpected consequenses.
I think there Are to many scumbags walking the earth ,but only the men who are serious owners of shovels should shoot people, unless you have no choice defend your home and those you love,, killing while in fear, is very different from killing from anger and revenge and the court is not forgiving.. Ive done time in the jail where cool hand luke did his time ,,avoid jail at all cost.. even one day In June I was cheated out of 2 weeks wages,,I listen to the others say they wanted to Harm them or strike out in someway.. ..ME,, I followed them halfway to thier home,, then the next day resume watch at the half way point and pick them up the 2nd watch day before I came to my senses,, these acts are stupid often the guilty go free ..Let them go!! let the police do the best they can. There are times in my life I want to load the 22 with half loads,, due to the greedy & uncareing,, Then I want to throw the shovel in the back of the Jimmy & hunt for remote burial sites,but now I am a responsible citizen and the smart people let it ride..
$500g and OJ's lawyers, as a guy who has worked in retail most of his life, I have been able to hone my answer to this question many times. call me sick, psychotic or what you want, those in retail will understand the answer. lol
dan
p.s who am i kidding some customers (and pre-madonna techs) i would kill for free. plus prison offers 3 square meals a day, cot, cable tv, and all the sex i don't need.
They had better pray very hard that I don't contract some kind of terminal illness which would give me just enough time to do it, before I die 
and a happy ending for the guy who grew up (It would've been nice if he slipped you $100 or so for the troubles he caused).
but I couldn't find the darn keys to open the dead bolt door (you needed a key to get out) so I un hooked the front window and went to my neighbor's condo to call the police. Foolishly, 
I came back to the bedroom and this kid was still at it---10-20 minutes; rocking the patio door back n' forth! I went back to the kitchen and got a big, long, sharp butcher's knife--- yeah, you're dead now sucker!
I decided to shout and scare them (since these guys were tearing down my condo).
-- thus I gave chase with some type of heavy long object in my hand (stupid for chasing them--- I know). Anyway, I chased them-- through a field and over a fence (actually, I hit the wood fence with the object to scare them as the last guy jumped the fence).
Twenty to thirty minutes later.... the werewolf (that I was) started to get cold. You see it was in Fresno, CA during the winter and the temp was 30 degrees or so. 
