its what the gov is telling dealers to use to destroy the engines for their turn-in program.... sadly, we are selling it, they have to add a 3-1 mixture of this and water to the engines and run them till they lockup...
makes me sad to know this crap might get put into a fiero one day
[This message has been edited by hookdonspeed (edited 07-24-2009).]
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03:11 PM
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Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Well, they gotta find some way to make up for lost market share I guess--think of it as a govt subsidy. One of the results of this will be Instead of being able to go to a salvage yard and getting a needed used part, you'll soon be forced to buy new from one of the suppliers in the Big 3 logistic train.
"We're the govt--we're here to help you--trust us."
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Sodium silicate (water glass) is a clear, colorless liquid with a viscosity of 42 degrees Baume. Used in soaps, detergents, adhesives and in waterproofing. Sometimes used to seal small cracks or leaks in the cooling system.
CASH FOR CLUNKERS... Sodium silicate is recommended by USDOT "CASH FOR CLUNKERS PROGRAM" to permanently disable trade-in vehicle engines. They cite a simple procedure which involves removing engine oil from the crankcase and replacing it with a 40% solution of sodium silicate, then running the engine for a short time at a low speed untill it becomes inoperable.
To make a 40% sodium silicate solution combine four parts (by volume) sodium silicate with six parts (by volume) tap water. For example, to make a little over one quart, mix one pint (16oz) sodium silicate with 24oz tap water to make 40oz of a 40 % solution.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-24-2009).]
LOL... on a side note the one junkyard we use to get our used parts has already stated they will NOT buy any cars that were disabled in this way, supposedly there is a long list of yards against this, that if the dealers are participating in the program, wont accept ANY cars from the said dealer.
because they "want to get all the old gas guzzlers off the road"
thats funny, most the people here with the dukes get better gas milage then my moms ecotec....
I guess it just comes down to not understanding the mechanics of gas milage. The 3800SC does not get very good gas milage in the Bonneville but put that same engine in a Fiero and you get great gas milage. Even if the engine were put into the same model car, you end up using less resources because it is better to recyle even a gas guzzler than it is to build a new car from scratch.
Damn ignorant hippies.
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04:57 PM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
I always thought the more environmental issue would be emissions. Yeah your 20+ year old engine might get better mileage but it's still not going to be as efficient as a modern designed engine which should put out much less CO2s which is a greenhouse gas. It is interesting that they are using some concoction to seize the engines though you would think there would be a more useful way to take the engines out. Oh well that's politics.
[This message has been edited by The Poopsmith (edited 07-24-2009).]
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05:14 PM
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hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
I always thought the more environmental issue would be emissions. Yeah your 20+ year old engine might get better mileage but it's still not going to be as efficient as a modern designed engine which should put out much less CO2s which is a greenhouse gas. It is interesting that they are using some concoction to seize the engines though you would think there would be a more useful way to take the engines out. Oh well that's politics.
taking the engines out would require paying the tech to do such, and they want the engines "gone", as in not able to be put into anotehr car, ever.
This makes me VERY sad..... Its too bad that a distinction can't be made between old cars worth saving and clunkers, but I guess its too late now. Its a subjective call anyway, one mans trash is another mans treasure.
There's a similar process for old stationary engines that are replaced with more efficient engines. Kinda, they just use a big sledge hammer through the side of the block.
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07:35 PM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by Doug85GT: I guess it just comes down to not understanding the mechanics of gas milage. The 3800SC does not get very good gas milage in the Bonneville but put that same engine in a Fiero and you get great gas milage. Even if the engine were put into the same model car, you end up using less resources because it is better to recyle even a gas guzzler than it is to build a new car from scratch.
Damn ignorant hippies.
not sure what bonne's you've driven but the 3 that ive driven all got 27+ MPG highway with the 3800 s/c and around 29MPG highway with the n/a 3800's
matthew
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08:29 PM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
Sort of like melting down or chopping up perfectly good firearms that are seized by police depts..........
i work right across the hall from our firearms section, the expensive firearms we sell back to our suppliers, they give us credit towards police issue firearms, the cheap, no good, or damaged weapons get cut up with a plasma cutter then thrown in the trash.
the sad thing is when we have to get rid of stolen recovery stuff, its sat outside in a pile, the hazardous stuff that cant be burned is destroyed (not sure how) but anything that can be burnt is burnt, i always hate seeing all the car stereo stuff being tossed into a fire.
although you always know when they are burning pot, they do it in the middle of the night and the boss's dont tell anyone when its going to happen so people dont gather around.
matthew
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08:32 PM
scrabblegod Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lexington, KY Registered: Jun 2003
We are the only salvage yard approved to accept them in our area. The regulations say once we accept the car, we have to disable the engine via the liquid glass method. The engine and components can not be sold. We can sell the rest of the drivetrain and any other parts. The engine and body shell have to be crushed within 180 days and must be crushed at the same time.
We have dealers that already have 10 to 20 cars on their lots. We have told them we will take the cars, but will not pay for them other than the tow bill. They can disable them themselves, drain the fluids, remove all the mercury, fuel tank and wheels then haul them to the local metal recycling center to be crushed, but I do not think it is worth their time.
The interesting part is once it enters a recyclers yard. it can not leave until it is crushed. We can not even haul them to the crusher two blocks from us. They have to be crushed on the premises.
Yea let's just reinforce the wasteful ideology of our consumer frenzied society.
Im not saying buying new things is bad, or throwing away junk is bad, but perhaps swindling people to take on new debt by convincing them they "have" to have this new car, and giving them further justification to do so. Then just destroying perfectly good cars.
Just like the damn cell phone market has convinced people they 'have' to have a new phone every 2 years, even though, for the most part people just buy phones that have the exact same features as their old phones. Sure, some people upgrade to PDAs or what not but I bet %80 of people lock themselves into another 2 years just for the same old phone in a different color.
This makes me VERY sad..... Its too bad that a distinction can't be made between old cars worth saving and clunkers, but I guess its too late now. Its a subjective call anyway, one mans trash is another mans treasure.
That's what happens when you elect ultra-left liberals. Some of us WARNED you about this. But it would seem you can't connect the dots, can you?
We are the only salvage yard approved to accept them in our area. The regulations say once we accept the car, we have to disable the engine via the liquid glass method. The engine and components can not be sold. We can sell the rest of the drivetrain and any other parts. The engine and body shell have to be crushed within 180 days and must be crushed at the same time.
We have dealers that already have 10 to 20 cars on their lots. We have told them we will take the cars, but will not pay for them other than the tow bill. They can disable them themselves, drain the fluids, remove all the mercury, fuel tank and wheels then haul them to the local metal recycling center to be crushed, but I do not think it is worth their time.
The interesting part is once it enters a recyclers yard. it can not leave until it is crushed. We can not even haul them to the crusher two blocks from us. They have to be crushed on the premises.
Gene
I assume ( hope ) that existing cars on the lot are grandfathered in and not subject to this stupidity so we will still have some parts to pick from?
I wonder when they will not allow engine parts from a speed shop be put on a passenger car even...
Sort of like melting down or chopping up perfectly good firearms that are seized by police depts..........
Thats after healthcare is absorbed. He's working down his list.
I see the same sort of "buy back" program some cities have had where you get a free sandwich coupon for turning in a weapon, but on a national level. Then banning private sales, even of parts..
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10:16 AM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Even if we don't like it, this is the free market at work. Under "Cash for Clunkers" the government buys old cars, probably most at above market value, and sells them for scrap. Just like any other owner, the government can do anything it wants to a car it owns, including permanently disabling the engine. Any private citizen is free to outbid the "Cash for Clunkers" program. I wouldn't be surprised to see an ad in the future stating, "Let us evaluate your car first. We may give you an even better price than the government for your old clunker."
From the recently-published rules for the program: "[For a car to qualify,] It must be less than 25 years old and have a combined city-highway fuel economy rated at 18 miles per gallon or less. The program is advantageous only if the trade-in value is less than the minimum $3,500 offered by the government. ... the program requires the vehicle be in drivable condition, continuously insured and registered to the same owner for at least a year before the trade-in." See www.cars.gov for full details Thus it appears that most Fieros do not qualify for the program.
Many of the program rules are intended to prevent fraud, e.g. people buying non-running, salvaged cars and submitting them to the program, or dealers accepting trade-ins under the program and then reselling them.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-26-2009).]
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12:46 PM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
Even if we don't like it, this is the free market at work. Under "Cash for Clunkers" the government buys old cars, probably most at above market value, and sells them for scrap. Just like any other owner, the government can do anything it wants to a car it owns, including permanently disabling the engine. Any private citizen is free to outbid the "Cash for Clunkers" program. I wouldn't be surprised to see an ad in the future stating, "Let us evaluate your car first. We may give you an even better price than the government for your old clunker."
From the recently-published rules for the program: "[For a car to qualify,] It must have been manufactured in 1984 or later and have a combined city-highway fuel economy rated at 18 miles per gallon or less. The program is advantageous only if the trade-in value is less than the minimum $3,500 offered by the government. ... the program requires the vehicle be in drivable condition, continuously insured and registered to the same owner for at least a year before the trade-in." Thus it appears that most Fieros do not qualify for the program.
Many of the program rules are intended to prevent fraud, e.g. people buying non-running, salvaged cars and submitting them to the program, or dealers accepting trade-ins under the program and then reselling them.
Even if we don't like it, this is the free market at work. Under "Cash for Clunkers" the government buys old cars, probably most at above market value, and sells them for scrap. Just like any other owner, the government can do anything it wants to a car it owns, including permanently disabling the engine. Any private citizen is free to outbid the "Cash for Clunkers" program. I wouldn't be surprised to see an ad in the future stating, "Let us evaluate your car first. We may give you an even better price than the government for your old clunker."
I have no problems with the program really--until/unless the govt starts dictating in any way--whether it be directly or with incentatives--which brand you have to purchase.
And, what determines the "combined city/highway economy rated at 18mpg or less"? The original manufactorer's sticker? What about a poorly maintained 1999 vehicle that gets 10mpg--doesn't qualify?
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06:00 PM
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hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
And, what determines the "combined city/highway economy rated at 18mpg or less"? The original manufactorer's sticker? What about a poorly maintained 1999 vehicle that gets 10mpg--doesn't qualify?
whats funny is i just rented a car, its a 2009 hyundai sonata.... the onboard system says its averaging 19.5mpg.... thats after a 45min drive down i95.
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06:14 PM
Jul 26th, 2009
scrabblegod Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lexington, KY Registered: Jun 2003
These rules only apply to cars traded in on new car purchases that meet the cash for clunker rules. The program only runs 90 days. Once they start rolling in, I will post a list of the types of cars we are getting.
Gene
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02:13 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37914 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by CoryFiero: But the Gov't is using OUR MONEY!
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Originally posted by maryjane: I have no problems with the program really--until/unless the govt starts dictating in any way--whether it be directly or with incentatives--which brand you have to purchase.
They already have Don. Why do we have to buy a car ? Can't we just pay our income taxes with it ? Maybe a student loan ? This is a scam from the get go.
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02:24 PM
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3152 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
They already have Don. Why do we have to buy a car ? Can't we just pay our income taxes with it ? Maybe a student loan ? This is a scam from the get go.
Because the program is really an attempt at getting people to borrow and spend; 'cause any edumacated person knows the way to prosperity is to borrow borrow borrow until you're up to your eyeballs in debt.
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03:05 PM
Fformula88 Member
Posts: 7891 From: Buffalo, NY Registered: Mar 2000
And, what determines the "combined city/highway economy rated at 18mpg or less"? The original manufactorer's sticker? What about a poorly maintained 1999 vehicle that gets 10mpg--doesn't qualify?
The calculation is based on the revised "combined" Fuel Economy estimates with the most recent new cars (I think 2007 and newer) as seen on their window stickers. For older cars, they applied the revised calculations to come up with "new" economy numbers.
Example: In 1988, the window sticker on my V6/auto was 18 city, 24 highway, 20 combined. Based on the revised figures (which are used for the CARS program) my car's sticker would have read 16 city, 22 highway, 18 combined.
That is of course completely inaccurate in my experience too. I generally get between 20 and 22 mpg in mixed driving, and see about 25-26 on straight highway. The original figures seemed more accurate to me, both on this car and others I have owned.
There is, of course, no provisions to differentiate between well maintained and poorly maintained engines, or real world economy.
[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 07-26-2009).]
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03:13 PM
Old Lar Member
Posts: 13798 From: Palm Bay, Florida Registered: Nov 1999
I have no problems with the program really--until/unless the govt starts dictating in any way--whether it be directly or with incentatives--which brand you have to purchase.
What? No problems? it is your money that is being spent to give others a discount on their car. I don't see the logic here. GEEZ, I work hard and why should my money be used to reward someone else? I am totally against the use of tax payer money to buy someone else a car.... WHICH is NOT required for survival... it isn't food or shelter.
