Here is the actual text of our interrogation techniques which are called "torture". They are no longer used by the current powder puff administration. How Obama expects to get information out of hardened terrorists is beyond me.
Page 2 lists the ten techniques used and describes what they are:
Note: the text recognition of Adobe Acrobat is not that great so you will have to endure the misques.
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These ten techniques are: (1) attention grasp, (2) \valling, (3) facial hold, (4) facial slap (insult slap), (5) cramped confinement, (6) wall standing, (7) stress positions, (8) sleep deprivation, (9) insects placed in a confine.ment box, and (l0) the '.vaterboard. You have informed us that the use ofthese techniques would be on an as-needed basis and that not an of these techniques \\lill necessarily be used. 111C interrogation team would use these techniques in some combination to convince Zubaydab that the only way he can influence his surrounding environment is through cooperation. You have, however; informed us th~it you expect these techniques to be used in some sort of escal81ing fashion, culmillating wirh the vvaterhoard, though hOt necessarily ending with this teduuque. l'Aoreover, you have also orally informed us that although someof these teclmiques may be used with more than once, that repetition wllI not be subst?-!ltial because the techniques generally lose their effectiveness after several repetitions. You have also informed us that Zubaydah sustained a wound during his capture, \vhich is being treated.
Based on the facts you have given us, we understand each of these tedmiques to be as GJl!()ws. The attention. grasp consists of grasping the individual v"ith both hands, Qne hand on each side ofthe coHal' opening, in a controlled and quick motion. In the same motion as the grasp, the individual is ara"vn to\var\1 the interrogator.
For wailing, a flexible false wall will be COnEtructed. The individual is placed with his heels lou.cli.ltig the\\'alLThe ttlte:rrogator pulls the individual fOfwardandthen -q-ui'Cklyancl DTmly pushes the individual into the walL It is the individual's shoulder blades that hit the wall. During this motion, the head and neck are suppOlted with a rolled hood or towel that provides a c-coUar effect to help prevent whiplash. To further reduce the probability of injury, the individual i.s allowed to reboundfron: the flexible wall. You have orally informed us that the false wall is in part constructed ro create a loud sound when the individual hits it, which \vil1 fl.!rther shock or surprise in the individuaL In part, the idea is to create a sound that wilL make the inlpact seem far worse than it is and that \vill be far worse than ful.y injury that might result fTom the action.
The facial hold is used to hold the head immObile. One open 'Palm isplaced oueither side of the individual's face. TIie fillgertips are kept well ,,'.vay fram the individ!lal's eyes.. \Vitb the facial slap or insult slap, the iuten-ogataI' slaps the individual's face w'ith fingers sLightly spread. The band rnakes contact with the area directly benveen the tip of the individual's chin and the bottom of the corresponding earlobe. The interrogator invades the individual's personal space. The goal of the facial slap is not to inflict physical pain that is severe or lastLtlg. instead, the purpose oftlle facial slap is to induce shock, surprise, andlor humiliaticlI1. Cramped confmement involves the placement ofthe individual in a confined space, the dimensions of which restrict the individual's movement. The confined space is uSl.lallydark. The duration ofconfinement varies based upon the size of the container. For the large!' confined space, the individual can sland up or sit do\vn; the smaller space is large enough for the subject to' sit down. Confit1ement in the larger space can last up.. to e~g~teen hours; for the smaHer space, confinli:ment lasts for no more than two hours,
Wall standing is used to induce muscle fatigue. The individual stands about four to .five feet from a waH, with his feet spread approximately to shoulder width His arms are stretched out in front of him, ','lith his fingers resting on'the walL His fingers support all of his body weight. The individual is not permitted to move or reposition his hauds or feet A variety of stress positions may be used. You have iuformed us that these positions are not designed to produce the pain associated with contortions or hvisting of the bodr Rather, somewhat like walling, they are designed to produce the physical discomfort associated with muscle iatigue. Two particular stress positions are likely to be used OD Zubaydah: (1 ) sitting on the floor with legs extended straight out in front ofhi111 with his arras raised above his head; and (2) kneeling on the floor while leaning back at a 45 degree fu'1g1e. You have also oraBy infon11ed us that th.rough observing Zubaydah in captivity, you have noted that he appears to be quite flexible despite his wound.
Sleep deprivation may be used. You have indicated that your pu..rpose in using this technique is to reduce the individual's abiiity to think on his feet and, through the discomfort associatc:dwitll 'lack of;:;teep; tomotivatehimi'O"cooperate: Theet1ectDfsneirsleep'deprivatiol1 will generally remit after one or two nightsofunlnterropte-d sleep, You haveinf{)tmed us that your research has revealed that, in rare instances, sonle individuals who are already predisposed to psychological problems may experience l",bnonnal reactions to sleep deprivation, EYen in those cases, however, reactions abate after the individual is pennitted to sleep. MOl'eover, personnel with medical trainin,g are available to and will intervene in the unlikely event of an abn0f!11al reaction. You have orally infonned us thilt you would not deprive Zubaydah of sleep for more than ele'ven days at a time and that )'OU have previously kenthim awake for 72 hours, from which no mental or pl~ysical harm resulted.
You would like to place Zubayd2Jl in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have infof!11ed us that he appears to have :0 fear of insects. f.n p?Jiic:ular, you \liould like to teli Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would, however, place a hannless insect in the box. You have orally inform'" ' ';131 vou would in fact ce a as a cate .. at in the box with.
Finally, you '.:;,ould like to use a tecbnique called the "water-board." In this procedure, the individual is bound securely loan inclined bench, Which is approXimately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Wateris then applied to the cloth in a wmrolJed manner. As this is done, the cloth is lo\vered until it covers both the nose and 111outh. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers tbe mouth and nose, air now is slightly restric.ted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence ofthe cloth. This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stil1lulates increased effort to breathe. This eiTon plus the cloth produces tbe perception of"suffocation and incipient panic," i.e.,the perception of drowning. tbeindividual does not breathe any wa.ter into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a beight of twelve to t\':venty~four inches. After thlsperiod, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four n!l1 breaths. The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can. ,vith a SlJout. You have orally informed us that till.s procedure triggers an automatic physiological sensation of drov,'ning that the individual cannot control even though he may be aware that he is in fact not dro\'il1ing. You bave also orally infomlcd. us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than 20 minutes in anyone application.
We also understaIld that a medical expert with SEFJ:: experience will be present throughout this phase and uiat the procedures w~ll be stopped if deemed rnedically necessary to prevent severe mental or physical ha.r.m to Zubaydah. A5 menti.oue.d abo\'e, Zuhayd2h suffered an injury during his capture. You have infonned us that steps will be taken to ensure that this injury is not in any way exacerbated by the use of these metllOds and that adequate 111cdical attention will be given to ensure that it will heal properly.
In this part, we reviewtbe context within which these procedures will be applied. You bave tnfom1ed us that you have taken various steps to ascertain what errect, if any, these techniques would have on Zubaydah's mental health. These same techniques, \vith the exception of the insect in the cramped confmed space, have been used and c.ontinue to be used on some members of our miiitary personnel during their SERE training. Because ofthe use of these procedures in training our own military personnel to resist interrogations, you have consulted with various individuals v;ho have extensive experience in the use ofthese techniques. You have done so in order to ensure that no prolonged mental haml would result from the Use ofthese proposed procedures.
[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 04-20-2009).]
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01:34 PM
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blackrams Member
Posts: 33156 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Doug, Thanks for posting this. I'm sure our enemies will be forthright and volunteer any information that we request. If anyone wants to know what torture is, ask Senator John McCain and some of his cell mates then we can talk. The vast majority of those techniques would not get a girl scout to give up information for at least a week. Based on limited research, waterboarding is as close to actual torture as it getting. .
Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-20-2009).]
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02:49 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10004 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
What you say is very true. The left don’t know what real torture is. They water down the word until it has very little meaning. Now these ways of making terrorists uncomfortable are considered “torture.
On a different note, I recorded a program on PBS called “Nova: Sputnik Declassified”. It turns out that the US could have had a satellite in orbit one year before Sputnik was launched. Instead, President Eisenhower chose to let the Russians into space in order to lay the groundwork to allow the US to have spy satellites. The Cold War would have gone very differently if we did not have spy satellites to keep track of where and how many missiles and troops the Soviets had.
President Eisenhower paid a huge political price for this secret. He was flayed in the press for years as being asleep at the switch. This cost the Republicans the election in 1961. At any time he could have just given up the secret and said that we allowed the Russians to launch the first satellite; it was part of the plan all along. Instead, he went to the grave with this secret in order to ensure that we were both safe and free today.
Contrast that great man with the one that occupies the same office today. In just 3 months of sitting in the same chair, this naive fool gives up our interrogation techniques that could have been used again in the future. What did he get for it? Not a damn thing. If anything the world is laughing at how Hugo Chavez made him into a clown. He said there was no harm in talking to these tin horn dictators. Well he just learned first hand that they will use him as a tool for their propaganda machine. Yes, our President is literally a tool now. But that is a different subject.
I knew that he was inexperienced and naïve coming in. I didn’t think he was dangerous. I honestly wish that Hillary would have won. She has 10X more sense and balls than Obama has. I honestly fear for the collective security of the US when this administration is done.
According to the May 30, 2005 Bradbury memo, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.
It took the CIA 183 applications of the waterboard technique in a one month period to get what was considered, at the time, "cooperation" out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
But that's not the interesting part.
The memo below talks alot about the U.S. Governments legal view that the US has not broken Article 16*, becouse these tecniques were being used OUTSIDE U.S. borders. It is a really great read!
On Culpibility: "We conclude that, in light of "an understanding of traditional executive behaivor, of contemporary practice, and of the standards of blame generally applied to them", the use of the enhanced interrogation program as we understand it, does not constitute Government behavior that "is so egregious, so outrageous, that it may fairly be said to shock the contemporary conscience.""
On The Legality: "Based on CIA assurances, we understand that the CIA interrogation program is not conducted in the United States or territories under United States jurisdiction, and that it is not authorized against United States persons. Accordingly, we conclude the the program does not implicate Article 16*. We also conclude the CIA interrogation program would not violate the substantive standards applicable to the United States under Article 16* even if those standards exceded the CIA interrogation program. Given the paucity of relevent precedent & the subjective nature of the inquiry, however, we can not predict with confidence whether a court would agree with this conclusion, though, for the reasons explaned, the question is unlikely to be subject to judicial inquiry. However, it is concievable that a court might attempt to address substantive questions under the Fifth Admendment if, for example, the United States sought a criminal conviction of a high value detainee in an Article III court in the United States using evidence that had been obtained from the detainee through the use of enhanced interrogation techniques."
People might want to read the entire memo to be well informed as to the inner-workings of "The Spin Cycle".
*UN Convention Against Torture - Article 16: 1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture or references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
2. The provisions of this Convention are without prejudice to the provisions of any other international instrument or national law which prohibit cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment or which relate to extradition or expulsion.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-20-2009).]
Why is it we're the only ones who play by the rules? How are we expected to ever accomplish anything when our hands are tied by "decency" as perceived by those who haven't the faintest idea of what's really happening?
As I said before: Common sense has left our society completely.
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07:12 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10004 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I have gone through the entire memo at the link that you provided and cannot find any mention of KSM being water boarded 183 times in one month nor Zubaydah 83 times in one month either. On the contrary, there is specific guidelines in that memo that would be violated if that was done.
Could you state exactly what page(s) back up your claim?
Also, the memo does state the legal arguments citing laws and court cases supporting the use of those enhanced techniques. If anything that vindicates it, no condemns it. Furthermore, the memo goes on to state several times that medical professionals are on hand at all times to monitor the detainees mental and physical state. At any point if the medical people think that serious harm could come to the detainee then everything is stopped.
You ask people to read the whole memo. Have you done so yourself?
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
According to the May 30, 2005 Bradbury memo, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003 and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.
It took the CIA 183 applications of the waterboard technique in a one month period to get what was considered, at the time, "cooperation" out of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
But that's not the interesting part.
The memo below talks alot about the U.S. Governments legal view that the US has not broken Article 16*, becouse these tecniques were being used OUTSIDE U.S. borders. It is a really great read!
On Culpibility: "We conclude that, in light of "an understanding of traditional executive behaivor, of contemporary practice, and of the standards of blame generally applied to them", the use of the enhanced interrogation program as we understand it, does not constitute Government behavior that "is so egregious, so outrageous, that it may fairly be said to shock the contemporary conscience.""
On The Legality: "Based on CIA assurances, we understand that the CIA interrogation program is not conducted in the United States or territories under United States jurisdiction, and that it is not authorized against United States persons. Accordingly, we conclude the the program does not implicate Article 16*. We also conclude the CIA interrogation program would not violate the substantive standards applicable to the United States under Article 16* even if those standards exceded the CIA interrogation program. Given the paucity of relevent precedent & the subjective nature of the inquiry, however, we can not predict with confidence whether a court would agree with this conclusion, though, for the reasons explaned, the question is unlikely to be subject to judicial inquiry. However, it is concievable that a court might attempt to address substantive questions under the Fifth Admendment if, for example, the United States sought a criminal conviction of a high value detainee in an Article III court in the United States using evidence that had been obtained from the detainee through the use of enhanced interrogation techniques."
People might want to read the entire memo to be well informed as to the inner-workings of "The Spin Cycle".
*UN Convention Against Torture - Article 16: 1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture or references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
2. The provisions of this Convention are without prejudice to the provisions of any other international instrument or national law which prohibit cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment or which relate to extradition or expulsion.
I have gone through the entire memo at the link that you provided and cannot find any mention of KSM being water boarded 183 times in one month nor Zubaydah 83 times in one month either. Could you state exactly what page(s) back up your claim?
Originally posted by Doug85GT: On the contrary, there is specific guidelines in that memo that would be violated if that was done.
The same OLC memo passage explains how the CIA might manage to waterboard these men so many times in one month each. (though even with these numbers, the CIA's math doesn't add up).
...where authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction. Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period.
So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you'd need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you've waterboarded 90 times--still just half of what they did to KSM.
quote
Originally posted by Doug85GT: Also, the memo does state the legal arguments citing laws and court cases supporting the use of those enhanced techniques. If anything that vindicates it, no condemns it. Furthermore, the memo goes on to state several times that medical professionals are on hand at all times to monitor the detainees mental and physical state. At any point if the medical people think that serious harm could come to the detainee then everything is stopped.
The memos reveal that the interrogators who waterboarded these men went far beyond even the expansive guidelines for torture described in the Bybee Memo*, notably by dumping water onto their nose and mouth, rather than dribbing it on. *Bybee Memo On Standards Of Interrogation:http://news.findlaw.com/hdo...j/bybee80102ltr.html
The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, and also that it was used in a different manner. See page 37:
"The waterboard technique ... was different from the technique described in the DoJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency Interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is "for real--and is more poignant and convincing."
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Originally posted by Doug85GT: You ask people to read the whole memo.
I never asked anyone to read the whole memo. I said "People might want to read the entire memo to be well informed as to the inner-workings of "The Spin Cycle".
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Originally posted by Doug85GT: Have you done so yourself?
Yes, but you have not, or you would have read the same thing I did in the memo.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-20-2009).]
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09:17 PM
Apr 21st, 2009
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10004 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I missed two sentenses in a paragraph labelled "SERE Training". How thoughtless of me.
Assuming that those guidelines were overstepped, I still don't consider it "torture". The worst thing you can bring up is water boarding. And of all the horrors they dumped a whole bucket on those murderers instead of dripping water on them like they were supposed to. That may be considered abuse but it is hardly torture. Compare that to what Al Qaeda does:
U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said last week that one of those freed was a 13-year-old boy, who "literally had been tortured, electrocuted, whipped, beat by these al Qaeda terrorists."
He said freed people told troops that one or two captives had died during the torture sessions, and the remaining captives expected to be ransomed off to their families, with the money going to support the al Qaeda insurgency.
So we know what the Army Field manual says about interrogating detainees. What does the Al Qaeda manual say?
quote
In a raid earlier this month, coalition forces found a laptop computer containing an apparent al Qaeda manual on how to torture victims, Caldwell said.
The manual, illustrated by graphic drawings, shows how to use drills to torture people, sever hands, drag people behind vehicles, use a blowtorch or clothes iron on skin, remove eyes and electrocute people, among other tactics.
"They made it in a cartoon manner, so that no matter what your literacy rate, what nationality you are, all you've got to do is look at these pictures to understand how to conduct tortures of innocent people," Caldwell said on CNN's "The Situation Room."
I'll be sure to shed a few tears for those terrorists that had a bucket of water pored on them instead of a drip. Don't hold your breath.
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12:06 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
There are people around here who crack me up. If you post information they don't like or wanna admit to, they try to discredit what you post, then when you prove credibility, they make excuses, redirect the topic, or just ignore it. But admit to it or apoligize for implying you were a lier........................never.
But, my FAVORITE tendency of some around here is take a fact or set of facts that are contrary to thier beliefs, and excusing them with, "Well, the other side does worse!".
Oh, wait, maybe my all-time favorite is what I have come to know as, "You're WITH them!". My above post was a set of facts from the "goodguys" own report. But by me passing on that information, I somehow "support" the badguys. Most here know, I don't like bullies. Goodguys OR badguys. Becouse bullies are ALL badguys.
And I don't buy that just becouse badguys burn out eyes with a hot poker, so should we. We're the GOODGUYS, and we're BETTER then that.
And, just for the record, while I don't believe in torture (for LOTS of reasons), I think the stuff we do is about as tame as it gets.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-21-2009).]
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01:03 AM
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Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10004 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I never changed my argument. The very first post I made it clear I do not consider ANY of those things torture. I even gave you full credit for what you posted. It just does not change my argument in the least.
If you have ever served in the military, you would recognise those interregation tactics. You would also know that they are not torture. You would also know what other countries does for torture. Would you rather be water boarded or have a drill go through your hands a few times? It is call perspective. The left doesn't have it.
BTW, I never called you a liar. You posted a 40 page document that does not allow very good text searches without citing exactly where you got your information from. Notice in my first post that I stated page numbers to look for what I cited. I asked you for the page numbers. If you choose to take offense, that is your problem.
Continue with your ad hominem attack.
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Originally posted by Boondawg:
There are people around here who crack me up. If you post information they don't like or wanna admit to, they try to discredit what you post, then when you prove credibility, they make excuses, redirect the topic, or just ignore it. But admit to it or apoligize for implying you were a lier........................never.
But, my FAVORITE tendency of some around here is take a fact or set of facts that are contrary to thier beliefs, and excusing them with, "Well, the other side does worse!".
Oh, wait, maybe my all-time favorite is what I have come to know as, "You're WITH them!". My above post was a set of facts from the "goodguys" own report. But by me passing on that information, I somehow "support" the badguys. Most here know, I don't like bullies. Goodguys OR badguys. Becouse bullies are ALL badguys.
And I don't buy that just becouse badguys burn out eyes with a hot poker, so should we. We're the GOODGUYS, and we're BETTER then that.
And, just for the record, while I don't believe in torture (for LOTS of reasons), I think the stuff we do is about as tame as it gets.
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01:36 AM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Then that would be a violation of my rights but it still would not be torture. There is a difference for people who look at things objectively. If you look at things in black and white like the leftist do, then waterboarding, drill through the hand, pulling finger nails off with pliers, and raping your wife in front of you are all equal. I don't think they are equal and I don't think that waterboarding even comes close to real torture.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
My only question is, when they bring you in for questioning for being a right wing extremist, will waterboarding be torture to you?
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10:26 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Doug85GT: Continue with your ad hominem attack.
If you would take the time to read my original post, without adding your own emotions to it, you will realize that It is NEUTRAL in It's nature. Show me ONCE where I directed anything at YOU, desputed your facts, or made reference to your post at ALL. All I was doing was adding some additional information to the subjectmatter YOU brought up. Go back and read your response to ME. 2 times you point to me DIRECTLY. And you accuse me of an attack.........................
About your "Exemption":
quote
Originally posted by Doug85GT:
Considering that:
1. I'm a US citizen. 2. I'm not a terrorist
Then that would be a violation of my rights but it still would not be torture.
All they have to do is CALL you a terrorist. Then you're shipped to a country where torture is practiced.
Why don't people GET that?! I speak out about torture becouse IT CAN BE USED ON YOU! YOU can be called something, WITHOUT PROOF, jailed, WITHOUT BEING CHARGED, imprisoned INDEFINATLY, and TORTURED. U.S. Citizen or not, YOU WILL HAVE NO RIGHTS!
What people don't get, It's about HUMAN RIGHTS, not "U.S. Citizen Rights".
quote
Originally posted by Doug85GT: There is a difference for people who look at things objectively. If you look at things in black and white like the leftist do, then waterboarding, drill through the hand, pulling finger nails off with pliers, and raping your wife in front of you are all equal. I don't think they are equal and I don't think that waterboarding even comes close to real torture.
They ARE all equal. Just as rape is rape & murder is murder.
It's simple. How do you want YOUR solders treated if captured? I didn't ask how they ARE being treated, I asked how do you WANT them treated.
We are the Goodguys. We lead by example. We don't violate human rights.
P.S. I never attacked you. The closest thing you would call an attack is when I said I read the document, and you questioned that by asking if I really had, and I returned with questioning whether you had, since you denied that some of the information I printed was actually in the link YOU requested I provide. Go back and read the thread. I never directed ONE THING at YOU. You cannot say the same.
Look, lets be truthfull. You did not like the information I posted. It didn't matter what the subject was, I posted something that went against something you believe in. So you tried to discredit it, to make it go away.
Tell the truth, you would like it better if the report I posted did not exsist at all, wouldn't you? Eventhough it is a part of the WHOLE truth. Part of EVERYONES truth.
We can't just take parts of the truth we LIKE. We have to take it all, as hard as that might be to swallow sometimes. You can still hold on to your beliefs while acceping that EVERYTHING has a clean side, and a dirty side. That don't make it bad. It's what you DO with it that shows whether your INTENT is good, or bad.
It boils down to this: America would like to see ALL countries to be like us. It's a good life. Freedom & personal rights. But you can't go around selling those things while behind closed doors you are doing the very things you condem in others.
All this writing, when really, it's just 3 words: LEAD BY EXAMPLE! So simple, but still will be excused by others who will claim, "We're better!".
Doug, this is not an attack on you. I don't know you, however, I respect your right to an opinion. But when you ask me for something and I provide it, acknowlagement would be nice, instead of the brush-off.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-21-2009).]
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11:57 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
some are just frustrated by what others are "getting away with".....
.
Hey, I totally GET it. I can't STAND the sickness of someone cutting off peoples heads. I can't even TELL you what I would like to do to them. It would make torture look like daycamp.
But we must not let the horrable actions of others change our beliefs. Becouse when you immitate the Devil, the next thing you know, you ARE the Devil!
I think this country is better then that.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-21-2009).]
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12:14 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33156 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Boondawg: They ARE all equal.
Definitions change from time to time, from one culture to another, from one person versus another person. I do not consider what the CIA did as torture, never have, harassment probably but, that's just me. Torture is what occurred in the POW camps of Viet Nam and Hanoi. Physical harm, maiming, breaking of limbs, joints, ect.... injuries that require medical treatment and healing is true torture. Mental anguish is a whole different category. Just my opinion, differs from many, apparently.
I've never been a POW but, I did go through some pretty intense POW training. Even in the military, no one expects any American captive to maintain the code of silence for ever. Given the right circumstances, anyone will talk, we all have that boundary where we'll tell just about anything and then there are those things that nothing could get the information out of us. Some folks would rather die than give the enemy information, some of those folks will do just that, die. Some will lie just to make the harassment or torture stop. Anything learned through intense interogation must be verified because, the first thing we're all gonna do is lie.
Being captured is one of the worst nightmares most military folks dread most. Can I hold out? Will what I tell them cost my buddy's their lives? Will we lose because of what I couldn't keep secret? The same things hold true for the other side. I still don't consider what the CIA did as torture but, definations have been changed before and I never was good at keeping up with what was in fashion.
Fighting for and defending a country, nation or cause has always been dangerous business.
Ron
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12:23 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10004 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
President Obama left the door open Tuesday to prosecuting Bush administration lawyers who wrote the rules allowing tough interrogation techniques to be used on suspected terrorists.
The president said intelligence officers who were following the rules should be immune, but when it comes to the lawyers that wrote the legal memos, he will leave it up to Attorney General Eric Holder.
Somewhere in a dark cave in Southern Asia, Osama Bin Ladin is laughing his ass off.
[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 04-21-2009).]
The president said the debate over interrogation techniques "has been a difficult chapter in our history," and said his decision to release four Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel memos outlining acceptable techniques was "one of the tougher decisions I've had to make as president."
As a general view I think we should be looking forwards, not backwards," he said. .
Well, if that were true, then why were the reports released in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I don't consider the CIA actions as torture but, if we're going to leave the past in the past, why release these reports at all. Let the sleeping dog alone. Yeah, sure, looking forwards, sure.
Just because I'm in a boat with a fishing pole and I baited the hook doesn't mean I'm fishing officer.
Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-21-2009).]
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03:17 PM
katatak Member
Posts: 7136 From: Omaha, NE USA Registered: Apr 2008
Anyone who doesn't think any of these methods are torture are welcome to sign up for 183 water boardings per month and all the rest. How many takers we got? 6 simulated drownings, anybody? Step right up, no need to push.
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12:34 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
WASHINGTON — The program began with Central Intelligence Agency leaders in the grip of an alluring idea: They could get tough in terrorist interrogations without risking legal trouble by adopting a set of methods used on Americans during military training. How could that be torture?
In a series of high-level meetings in 2002, without a single dissent from cabinet members or lawmakers, the United States for the first time officially embraced the brutal methods of interrogation it had always condemned.
This extraordinary consensus was possible, an examination by The New York Times shows, largely because no one involved — not the top two C.I.A. officials who were pushing the program, not the senior aides to President George W. Bush, not the leaders of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees — no one investigated the gruesome origins of the techniques they were approving with little debate.
According to several former top officials involved in the discussions seven years ago, they did not know that the military training program, called SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, had been created decades earlier to give American pilots and soldiers a sample of the torture methods used by Communists in the Korean War, methods that had wrung false confessions from Americans.
Even George J. Tenet, the C.I.A. director who insisted that the agency had thoroughly researched its proposal and pressed it on other officials, did not examine the history of the most shocking method, the near-drowning technique known as waterboarding.
The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.
They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Department would later renounce.
The process was “a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm,” a former C.I.A. official said.
Today, asked how it happened, Bush administration officials are finger-pointing. Some blame the C.I.A., while some former agency officials blame the Justice Department or the White House.
The bad guys set the rules in war. If they bomb cities and kill civilians, the good guys bomb cities and kill civilians. (WWII, Nazis bombing London, Allies bombing German cities)
Compared to the actions of our adversaries, waterboarding is pretty tame.
Unless you just don't want to win this thing.
You wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight, would you?
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10:26 AM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Let's say that there is a gang of really badasses in your area, they are stealing, raping, murdering and kidnapping folks for ransom, they have not been prosecuted because they haven't been caught yet. They kidnap your family, you just happen to catch one of the group. Now, we all know that we should call the law and I beleive you would do that. But, he won't talk, he won't tell you or the police where or who has your family. The dead line is nearing, they're going to kill their captives (your family), is waterboarding still out of the question?
You're probably a better person than I, you see, I consider all those soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen as part of my family and I know the "other" side is trying to kill them, you, all of us. I also know that they won't take mercy on my or your soul, they'll carve your heart out of your chest while you watch them. That is not the reason I say waterboarding isn't torture but, knowing that our guys are protecting you, your family, all of us and the persons being interogated will still be whole makes it less than torture in my mind.
Ron
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01:07 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 10004 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I thank you for your honestly. You illistrate your side's view well. Those of us that don't think in black and white will disagree with you. Those that do will agree.
There are degrees of rape and degrees of killing. I guess in your world there is no such thing as involentary manslaughter, the three degrees of murder nor killing in self defense. It is all murder to you or as you put it: "murder is murder." On that same line of thinking you must think abotion is murder and so is execution.
If anything, I guess life is easier to live in a binary world.
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
They ARE all equal. Just as rape is rape & murder is murder.
It's simple. How do you want YOUR solders treated if captured? I didn't ask how they ARE being treated, I asked how do you WANT them treated.
We are the Goodguys. We lead by example. We don't violate human rights.
P.S. I never attacked you. The closest thing you would call an attack is when I said I read the document, and you questioned that by asking if I really had, and I returned with questioning whether you had, since you denied that some of the information I printed was actually in the link YOU requested I provide. Go back and read the thread. I never directed ONE THING at YOU. You cannot say the same.
Look, lets be truthfull. You did not like the information I posted. It didn't matter what the subject was, I posted something that went against something you believe in. So you tried to discredit it, to make it go away.
Tell the truth, you would like it better if the report I posted did not exsist at all, wouldn't you? Eventhough it is a part of the WHOLE truth. Part of EVERYONES truth.
We can't just take parts of the truth we LIKE. We have to take it all, as hard as that might be to swallow sometimes. You can still hold on to your beliefs while acceping that EVERYTHING has a clean side, and a dirty side. That don't make it bad. It's what you DO with it that shows whether your INTENT is good, or bad.
It boils down to this: America would like to see ALL countries to be like us. It's a good life. Freedom & personal rights. But you can't go around selling those things while behind closed doors you are doing the very things you condem in others.
All this writing, when really, it's just 3 words: LEAD BY EXAMPLE! So simple, but still will be excused by others who will claim, "We're better!".
Doug, this is not an attack on you. I don't know you, however, I respect your right to an opinion. But when you ask me for something and I provide it, acknowlagement would be nice, instead of the brush-off.
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01:23 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective.
Boonie, this is not directed at you. This is part of the general discussion.
Here you have a mainstream media outlet that is blatantly pro-Obama, and blatantly anti-Bush. You have someone in OBAMA'S ADMINISTRATION admitting that the techniques resulted in intelligence that WAS valuable, and the techniques therefore WERE effective.
Now you take ANY criminal, any terrorist, or just even any zealot. Forget that. Take a relative sissy like me. Let's see. They can't grab me. They can't grab my face and make me look at them. They can't slap me. They can't even make me stand in the corner for very long. Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable I wouldn't crack.
Now, I would like someone on here to tell me. Why, then, would you even interrogate ANYone? Do you really expect to get ANY information from them? What are you going to do? TRICK them into spilling something?
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01:44 PM
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3152 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
There are people around here who crack me up. If you post information they don't like or wanna admit to, they try to discredit what you post, then when you prove credibility, they make excuses, redirect the topic, or just ignore it. But admit to it or apoligize for implying you were a lier........................never.
But, my FAVORITE tendency of some around here is take a fact or set of facts that are contrary to thier beliefs, and excusing them with, "Well, the other side does worse!".
Oh, wait, maybe my all-time favorite is what I have come to know as, "You're WITH them!". My above post was a set of facts from the "goodguys" own report. But by me passing on that information, I somehow "support" the badguys. Most here know, I don't like bullies. Goodguys OR badguys. Becouse bullies are ALL badguys.
And I don't buy that just becouse badguys burn out eyes with a hot poker, so should we. We're the GOODGUYS, and we're BETTER then that.
And, just for the record, while I don't believe in torture (for LOTS of reasons), I think the stuff we do is about as tame as it gets.
Yup. I guess that makes me a traitor too. At least I'm in good company, Boonie.
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06:09 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Yup. I guess that makes me a traitor too.
Actually, it kind of hurts. Until I remember the men who started this country were called traitors, too.
But even that gives me some discomfort, becouse if 99% of the people are calling me a traitor, and i'm in the company of the above great men, what does that make the 99%?
I guess the difference between me & the 99% percent is, I would never be so cruel as to place them where they are trying to place me.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-22-2009).]
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07:12 PM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
Actually, it kind of hurts. Until I remember the men who started this country were called traitors, too.
But that gives me some discomfort, as if 99% of the people are calling me traitor, and I'm in the company of the above great men, what does that make the 99%?
I guess the difference between me & the 99% percent, is I would never be so cruel as to place them where they are trying to place me.
It isn't 99% in the real world, only here. There is a loud, persistent minority who have trouble distinguishing right from wrong. For an example, just look at the last two national elections. The majority rejected torture, and voted the ones who supported torture out of office. The American people know better. Even John McCain is against torture. Don't let the bullies get to you dude. Just let them stew in their own bitterness. Remember: If we allow ourselves to sink to the level of the bad guys, then we are no better than the bad guys. In effect, we will have let the "evildoers" win.
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Mean People Suck
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-23-2009).]
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08:18 PM
Apr 23rd, 2009
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
Based on limited research, waterboarding is as close to actual torture as it getting. 
