OpenCarry.org Press Release - May 10, 2008 ************************************************************ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ************************************************************ Dickson City, PA police demand gun owners’ “identity papers” & conduct Katrina style gun confiscation!
Gun owners to demand Habeas Arma!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- It looks like the Dickson City (a borough in Lackawanna County, PA) police and Lackawanna County District Attorney have erected a “new order” in Pennsylvania – one where citizens must present their identity papers and give up their guns to police on demand.
Or, maybe Dickson’s finest are just trying to borrow a page from the play book of their bros’ in blue from the City of Brotherly love. . . [1]
The facts[2]
The facts are simple and not in dispute – a few folks, including families with small children, met up for dinner at the Old Country Buffet on Friday, May 9.[3] Apparently a customer called the police to report that some of these people were openly carrying handguns. Next thing you know, Dickson City Patrolman Tony Mariano and female Officer Gallagher rolled up and proceeded to roust everyone away from their dinners, demanded identity documents from anyone they saw openly carrying guns, and seized the guns for some sort of Orwellian “serial number check.”
When Luzerne County resident Rich Banks[4] and his wife Judy went over to the police and asked them what was going on, the police threatened to arrest Judy unless she turned off her camcorder, and then unlawfully arrested Rich when he declined to show identification[5] – Rich was then searched and placed in cuffs in a squad car.[6] Rich’s 6 year old son was upset and crying and several of the women in the party became nearly hysterical.[7]
For some time thereafter, squad cars full of police from the city of Scranton and Lackawanna County rolled up to assist in the illegal detention, ID checks, and serial number gun checks of these law abiding citizens just trying to eat dinner together.
Police start to get nervous
But something was wrong – Banks could see officers from the various jurisdictions franticly making cell phone calls and talking to each other – after a while, Officer Karen Gallagher, the mean spirited officer in charge, who told Rich’s wife she did not want to be filmed because she might want to go back to “under cover work some day,” came over to Rich and said they were going to go easy on him and release him. But . . . Gallagher said he could not get his gun back until he “proved ownership” because there was no record of his gun in police records. Mr. Banks – a “gun smith” with a federal gun dealer license – explained to Gallagher that her seizure, arrest, and search of his person was unlawful and demanded his property be returned immediately because there was no more reason he had to prove he owned the gun than to prove he owned the TV in his house. Retorted an angry Gallagher, “I heard enough from you tonight!,” slamming the squad door in a huff.
Incredibly, officer Gallagher then claimed to have contacted unknown elements of the Lackawanna District Attorney’s office which allegedly ordered her not to return Banks’ gun until he “proved ownership.”[8] Banks demanded a receipt from the police – so they wrote a note (attached, with serial number redacted).
So that’s the story – a bunch of police, acting like thugs, unlawfully roust and harass gun owners and their families for the crime of obeying the law – and then drive away after stealing a gun.
Police look for cover from restaurant management
As the police began winding down their Kafkaesque theater act, one of the officers asked the Old Country Buffett manager on duty if he “had any problems” with the group remaining at the restaurant. The manager responded laconically that “we had no problems ‘till you showed up.”
The law:
It’s pretty simple actually. Pennsylvania is like most states. There is no gun registration, and, generally, anyone 18 years of age or over can openly carry a handgun on foot without any license to do so, even while eating dinner.[9] As a constitutional matter, a mere 911 call reporting a “man with a gun” does not allow the police to detain or search anyone.[10] And while it is true that the Pennsylvania State Police maintain a handgun sales database consisting of information reported to them by Pennsylvania gun dealers,[11] it is not a crime to own or carry a gun not listed in the database which only consists of guns transferred through Pennsylvania gun dealers anyway.[12] And the police have no power to confiscate personal property for failure to carry proof of ownership.
What’s next?
Habeas Arma!
OpenCarry.org calls on the Lackawanna County District Attorney to order Mr. Banks gun returned to him immediately without any further demands for “proof of ownership,” whatever that is supposed to mean.
Further, we call for the suspension and prosecution of Patrolman Mariano and Officer Gallagher and any member of the Lackawanna District Attorney’s office involved in this travesty for violations of civil rights under federal and Pennsylvania law, including Pennsylvania’s “Official Oppression statute.”[13]
Finally, Dickson City Police Chief William Stadnitski had better get his Department under control such that no officer ever treat guns like “contraband” or gun owners like second class citizens. And it looks like the Chief knows his officers’ were out of control – this incident has not been posted to his Daily Activity report at ]http://www.dicksoncityboro...index.jsp?id=13.[14]
John Pierce/Mike Stollenwerk
########################## Contact anytime on gun stories: -- Mike Stollenwerk
Mr. Stollenwerk is a lifelong legal resident of Lancaster County, PA. In 2006, Stollenwerk prevailed in a federal lawsuit against the Pennsylvania State Police to quash their unlawful demands for social security number disclosure from gun purchasers and License to Carry Firearms applicants. Stollenwerk v. Miller, 2006 WL 463393 (E.D. Pa. 2006). -- John Pierce Mr. Pierce is an IT professional and works for an Allentown, PA area firm. -- http://www.OpenCarry.org A national pro-gun Internet community with more than 5,800 registered members News media reports citing OpenCarry.org's perspective: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum63 ##########################
[2] Assembled from OpenCarry.org’s very reliable members who witnessed this debacle first hand.
[3] See discussion thread at http://www.pafoa.org/forum/...kson-city-5-9-a.html - at first this thread was just a way to talk about an upcoming social event – at page 15, it became a thread to talk about police misconduct and the thread’s name was then changed.
[5] Pennsylvania has no “stop and ID” statute. Further, the United States Supreme Court has struck down state statutes requiring anyone to carry ID credentials. Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). And last month the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals held that an officer arresting someone for merely refusing to show identification is not due qualified immunity in a civil lawsuit. Stufflebeam v. Harris, 521 F.3d 884 (8th Cir. 2008). See also Rob Moritz, Fed appeals court says motorist's refusal to give police his name is no cause for arrest, Ark. News Bureau, April 5, 2008, available at http://www.lawreader.com/in...owse/node/7438.html.
[8] The story is a bit more complex – by this point, the police realized they were in the wrong generally and proceeded to back down. The police told one man he could not get his gun back because it was not “registered to him” but to his wife. The man told the police there was no registration in Pennsylvania and that Pennsylvania law does not require handgun transfers between family members to be conducted through dealer checks and record keeping anyway. The police handed the gun to the wife and walked away. Another man, who happened to have a License to Carry Firearms (required to “conceal” handguns in Pennsylvania) flat out told the police “you’re not taking my gun or running the serial number,” and the police quickly backed off.
[9] Commonwealth v. Hawkins, 692 A.2d 1068, n.4 (Pa. 1997) (“In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108. Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license.”). Interestingly, on the same day as Bank’s arrest and theft of his gun by police, the Associated Press reported that gun carry in restaurants is becoming pretty ho hum. Mathew Barakat, Guns in restaurants draw stares but little outcry, Associated Press, May 9, 2008, available at http://tinyurl.com/536htc.
[10] Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000).
[11] Only 13 other states are like Pennsylvania which generally bans the private **transfers** of handguns, see http://www.opencarry.org/transfers.html, but it is not a crime to move into Pennsylvania with a handgun, or transfer a handgun to a family members without going through a dealer – and so besides the point that the police have no lawful authority to seize guns and check their serial numbers against the PSP handgun transfer database, the fact that the handgun is not listed in the data base, or not associated with the person carrying the handgun is completely irrelevant. Regardless, it’s not a crime to **receive** a handgun in a private transfer under Pennsylvania law.
[12] Obviously the Dickson City and the Lackawanna District Attorney either don’t know the law, or are purposefully violating the law.
[13] 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 5301 ("Official oppression") provides that "[a] person acting or purporting to act in an official capacity or taking advantage of such actual or purported capacity commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if, knowing that his conduct is illegal, he: (1) subjects another to arrest, detention, search, seizure, mistreatment, dispossession, assessment, lien or other infringement of personal or property rights; or (2) denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity. See also Matt Miller, Constable charged with official oppression, Mid State News, April 3, 2008, available at http://www.pennlive.com/mid...d_with_officia.html.
[14] I wonder what the report will say, if it is ever posted – maybe something like, “To Old Country Buffet on a call about families eating out while some adults carrying holstered side arms. Police harassed a group of law abiding citizens for over an hour, and stole one gun from a man who would not keep his mouth shut.”
Huh. Interesting. Yea, Wisconsin does not outlaw open carry either, but I don't think I would ever do that for fear of situations like what you posted (CCW is illegal in wisconsin)
According to the Constitution, it's legal to open carry anywhere in the US of A. It's when you conceal the weapon that you need a permit. Of course, then there are cities/counties/states that pass unconstitutional laws, banning some particuliar type of firearm (like pistols, for example), or any firearm. Of course they're the places where crime is rampant, because all the criminals know that a law abiding citizen will not be able to defend themselves. (If any of you don't believe it check the stats.) It's fine for the police to check a serial # to make sure something isn't stolen, but that's the limit of their LEGAL actions. Of course, ALL the cops I run into BREAK the law on a regular basis so they don't care ANYWAY - they do WHATEVER THEY WANT TO. Paul
Edit: I actually had one cop STEAL the ammo from my Glock, WITHOUT TELLING ME!!!! Lotta freakin' good it would have done me if I had to defend myself before I found out!!!
[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 05-14-2008).]
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04:51 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Yea, last I checked, it was legal to arm yourself anywhere in the country, assuming you are of legal age and it isnt concealed, barring some reasonable locations like government buildings and schools. I wouldnt even consent to a check of the serial number, its a unreasonable search. People's cell phones cost more than guns, does that mean police should be able to check the ownership of a cell phone in public? Or any other piece of property? Just because its a gun doesnt automatically imply there should be something criminal about it, and gives no cause for a search of any type.
I hate to give them a hard time for doing thier jobs, but I think someone does need to be made an example of in this case, and taken to the fullest extent possible, make it known that they were completely out of line in thier actions there. Carrying a gun is legally no diffrent than wearing a watch, and really little diffrent than carrying a pocket knife. Its one thing to temporarilly disarm someone when there is a criminal investigation going on, to ensure the saftey of all those present, but to disarm, harass, search and detain people in a situation like this is rediculous.
According to the Constitution, it's legal to open carry anywhere in the US of A.
*snip*
While i agree, the problem is who is going to take that risk and be able to take it all the way up to the supreme court and hope they are willing to hear it?
Myself i conceal and keep a low profile as i don't really want the ( unjust ) hassle.
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06:13 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Ohio is weirder. IF you have a conceal carry permit, you CANT carry a weapon in the open....you HAVE to conceal it.... If you dont have a CCP, you can carry it loaded in your hip holster.
In NC you can open carry as well, BUT there's a statute they can use to harass you if they want. It's called "going armed to the terror of the public." Basically, if you scare someone, you're guilty. It's incredibly vague and open to all kinds of interpretation. And unless you're walking around armed like Rambo, you can probably win in court - but after how long and at what cost?
The part where you can be under 21 and own a hand gun. You just can't buy one.
"Thank you for your inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). According to Federal law, individuals under the age of 21 (and under certain special circumstances, under the age of 18) may possess handguns; however, Federal law prohibits a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) (i.e. firearms dealer) from selling handguns or handgun ammunition to persons under the age of 21. Said another way, individuals under the age of 21 may not purchase a handgun from an FFL.
A person must be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun or handgun ammunition, and 18 years of age to buy a rifle or shotgun or ammunition, from a retail firearm dealer. (GCA, 1968)
A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun ammunition, and it is illegal for a person to provide a handgun or handgun ammunition to a person under age 18, except for target shooting, hunting, or certain other exempted purposes. (Youth Handgun Safety Act, 1994)
[This message has been edited by Phranc (edited 05-14-2008).]
In this case you have a gun grabber for a governor. Do you think it's a really bright idea to walk around with a gun? Rendell and a large segment of the legislature are not going to do anything but endorse police harassing you for doing nothing more than open carrying a firearm. Rendell fully supports Nutter and has called for banning guns openly since events last week. Never mind that Rendell and other PA policies let the three crooks run the streets. No... Let's blame the guns... It's all the guns... It's never the Criminals that should still be in jail. Barf.
More importantly, it takes almost nothing for the police and gun grabbing DAs to turn your legal carry into Terrorism of various kinds. They can lock you up for "Terroristic Threatening" and probably a number of other things. Anyone that wants to do this needs to accept that they may need a really good lawyer.
Do this in allot of places and many cops will show up, probably with SWAT in tow.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Ohio is weirder. IF you have a conceal carry permit, you CANT carry a weapon in the open....you HAVE to conceal it.... If you dont have a CCP, you can carry it loaded in your hip holster.
No, you can still carry open or concealed regardless of license. I carry concealed all the time under license, but can carry open whenever I feel like it as well.
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08:57 PM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13602 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
but i conceal carry everyday, unless i'm working on a car or sleeping, you can be sure that i have a pistol on me. i dont care if i *print* or not. the only people that are going to notice are good guys and bad guys... good guys wont care if i am armed. bad guys will pick someone else to rob.
No, you can still carry open or concealed regardless of license. I carry concealed all the time under license, but can carry open whenever I feel like it as well.
It must change back n forth frequently then. During the 2 day class to get CCP, and personally from Sheriff and Highway Patrol officers, Ive been told you cannot. Of course that was last summer. I do know they just changed it a few months ago that you could still carry with your permit when driving in your car. Previously,WITH the permit, you still had to lock it away unloaded in your trunk and could not keep it on your person inside a car.
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07:22 AM
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
I really don't know the laws, so if someone does, can you educate me? If you carry a gun in a hip holster, "wild-west style" is that considered concealed? Or open? Is that the style that is then considered legal in all states, if I am reading correctly?
It seems to me (totally uneducated on this subject) that open carry would be the way to go. I mean, I wouldn't mess with a guy strapping on a six-shooter in public, would you? And criminals would think twice, I am sure.
Any thoughts?
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07:41 AM
Rainman Member
Posts: 3877 From: Cincinnati, Ohio Registered: Jan 2003
It must change back n forth frequently then. During the 2 day class to get CCP, and personally from Sheriff and Highway Patrol officers, Ive been told you cannot. Of course that was last summer. I do know they just changed it a few months ago that you could still carry with your permit when driving in your car. Previously,WITH the permit, you still had to lock it away unloaded in your trunk and could not keep it on your person inside a car.
Cops are not lawyers, never take their advice.
In Ohio, you have always been allowed to open carry even if you have conceal license, but until about a year ago, if you were in a vehicle it HAD to be open carry if you had a conceal license. They have revised that and now it can be concealed in a vehicle.
Local news coverage - I'm struck by the Chief's lack of knowledge concerning what his officers have a right do regarding search and seizure as well as his knowledge of PA law in general. There is no gun ownership database, the database the Chief refers to only tracks the sale of guns transferred through PA FFLs, any gun sold FTF or out of state would not be in the database. Therefore lack of info in that database would not be cause to seize that gun. Mike Stollenwerk was 100% correct with regard to the law.
Gun owners protest police action BY CHARLES SCHILLINGER STAFF WRITER 05/14/2008 Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly DICKSON CITY — A Friday evening police incident spilled over into a Borough Council meeting Tuesday, with gun-rights advocates alleging harassment by two police officers. The regular monthly meeting erupted into a full-blown debate on the Second Amendment, with more than 20 Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association members — many of whom were openly armed — arguing their right to carry a weapon in public.
Police have yet to release a report of the incident in which a group of customers at Old Country Buffet were questioned about openly carrying handguns in public. At least one of those customers, Rich Banks, of Luzerne County, was detained for refusing to cooperate with police in regard to his concealed .38-caliber handgun, Police Chief William Stadnitski said. Mr. Banks’ weapon remains confiscated, but the chief said he can pick it up at any time.
Pennsylvanians are required to carry a permit for a concealed weapon; however, there are exemptions, such as in the case of Mr. Banks, who Dickson City police later found out had a federal gun-dealer license.
“We don’t feel there was any misconduct. We did what we had to for the safety of the customers,” Chief Stadnitski said of his part-time officers, Karen Gallagher and Anthony Mariano, who responded to the restaurant after 911 received complaints. The chief said no charges will be filed.
But some, like Andrew Koch, disagreed. Mr. Koch drove more than five hours from Pittsburgh to speak out for Mr. Banks and the other gun owners who were “embarrassed, oppressed, harassed and violated” by the police.
“These officers need to be disciplined, and criminal charges need to be brought against them,” Mr. Koch said.
Firearm association members turned out from all over the state at Tuesday’s meeting after postings on Internet sites, such as www.opencarry.org. The co-founder of that site, Lancaster resident Mike Stollenwerk, drove from Washington, D.C., to protest the police conduct.
“Normally when hiccups like this happen, they don’t go as far as gun seizure. ... Usually it gets cleared up much quicker,” he said.
Bill Grumbine, of Kutztown, carrying a Springfield XD-45 handgun, said he brought his 15-year-old daughter, Emily, for a “real-life civics lesson.”
“The last thing we want to do is use our guns, just like the last thing you want to do is use the air bag in your car,” he said. “But we believe in being prepared, and we believe in exercising our rights.”
Several council members and Mayor Anthony Zaleski defended the police officers.
“Our officers did not know what to expect. They could be walking into situations similar to shootings at school campuses and other public events,” said council President Barbara Mecca.
Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit. “Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”
Contact the writer: cschillinger@timesshamrock.com
"Friday night an armed group of people entered the Old Country Buffet. They were aggressive. They were intimidating. They knowingly broke numerous laws. And, they were the police."
- Opening statement by PennsyPlinker at the Dickson City council meeting
Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit. “Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”
DA Jarbola apparently needs to visit a law library and look up Terry Stop, which was ruled legal by SCOTUS. The "Terry Stop" is what allows any police officer to demand ID at any time and WITHOUT the usual probable cause requirement. If you don't have, refuse to provide, or the cop simply claims it may be forged/tampered ID, they can detain you for as long as they like until it's either cleared up or they find something to charge you with. The "Terry Stop" ruling is what enables Wilmington DE and any other city to use "jump out" squads that do just that. Philly Mayor Nutter has publicly stated he plans the same tactics in that city.
Regardless of what DA Jarbola says publicly, the police CAN stop you any bloody time they want for any reason they can pull out of thin air or nothing at all. Frankly I'm surprised that he didn't use just that ruling to justify what as done even if PA state law says otherwise. Assuming PA law says exactly that, it may or may not be valid given the SCOTUS ruling.
Walk around Philly with a gun on display and see how long it takes for police and maybe even SWAT to show up. I'd be amazed if they didn't shoot first and not bother to ask many questions later.
I thought that the Terry Stops was about the police being able to frisk people of suspect actions to ensure safety? Not the ability to demand ID.
A recent SCOTUS ruling says that one must provide a name but not ID. ( Hiibel vs Nevada)
That is correct. Terry stops have nothing to do with ID, we are NOT a police state and no one is required to carry their "papers" everywhere they go "just in case" the cops want to go crime-phishing. Plus, IIRC Terry stops still have the same probable cause restrictions and therefore are only allowed if there is reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed.
[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 05-16-2008).]
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11:46 PM
May 16th, 2008
OKflyboy Member
Posts: 6607 From: Not too far from Mexico Registered: Nov 2004
"[5] Pennsylvania has no “stop and ID” statute. Further, the United States Supreme Court has struck down state statutes requiring anyone to carry ID credentials. Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). And last month the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals held that an officer arresting someone for merely refusing to show identification is not due qualified immunity in a civil lawsuit. Stufflebeam v. Harris, 521 F.3d 884 (8th Cir. 2008). See also Rob Moritz, Fed appeals court says motorist's refusal to give police his name is no cause for arrest, Ark. News Bureau, April 5, 2008, available at http://www.lawreader.com/in...owse/node/7438.html. "
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02:10 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
The part where you can be under 21 and own a hand gun. You just can't buy one.
"Thank you for your inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). According to Federal law, individuals under the age of 21 (and under certain special circumstances, under the age of 18) may possess handguns; however, Federal law prohibits a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) (i.e. firearms dealer) from selling handguns or handgun ammunition to persons under the age of 21. Said another way, individuals under the age of 21 may not purchase a handgun from an FFL.
A person must be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun or handgun ammunition, and 18 years of age to buy a rifle or shotgun or ammunition, from a retail firearm dealer. (GCA, 1968)
A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun ammunition, and it is illegal for a person to provide a handgun or handgun ammunition to a person under age 18, except for target shooting, hunting, or certain other exempted purposes. (Youth Handgun Safety Act, 1994)
I was selling guns at Wally World back when the NICS check started and that is where I got my info on selling handguns and handgun ammo. We were not allowed by federal law to sell either to anyone under 21.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Honestly, this makes me want to organize a nationwide "Public Open Gun Carry Day."
Sign me up ! We have a right to keep and bear arms, we should excercise the right . It might put things in perspective for politicions, that americans don't want their right enfringed upon.
------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 05-16-2008).]
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10:29 AM
PFF
System Bot
OKflyboy Member
Posts: 6607 From: Not too far from Mexico Registered: Nov 2004
Interesting to note, my state, Oklahoma, prohibits Open Carry completely. OK does allow Concealed Carry with a permit and IIRC is a "shall issue" state (meaning its very easy to get a CCW permit, basically you "shall be issued" a permit of you take the class and apply). In the state we're looking into moving to, Missouri, it is legal to OC in most localities. Just another point towards moving to MO, I guess.
[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 05-16-2008).]
Originally posted by ktthecarguy: It seems to me (totally uneducated on this subject) that open carry would be the way to go. I mean, I wouldn't mess with a guy strapping on a six-shooter in public, would you? And criminals would think twice, I am sure.
Any thoughts?
Open carrying not only makes it easier for you to get to, it also makes it very easy for SOMEONE ELSE to get to. you're walking through a store, minding your own business when someone comes up from behind you, takes your gun, and shoots you with it.
NEVER make the mistake of thinking that because you're armed, people won't mess with you.
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12:23 PM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13602 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by OKflyboy: In the state we're looking into moving to, Missouri, it is legal to OC in most localities. Just another point towards moving to MO, I guess.
I think that changed when we became a shall issue state.
Honestly, this makes me want to organize a nationwide "Public Open Gun Carry Day."
25th show we could have a firo gunowners open carry day. i think that would be rather funny a bunch of guys walkin around strapped. im pritty shure no one would say anything bad about the fiero that day.
25th show we could have a firo gunowners open carry day. i think that would be rather funny a bunch of guys walkin around strapped. im pritty shure no one would say anything bad about the fiero that day.
Haha you might just be onto something there. I like it.
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03:38 PM
OKflyboy Member
Posts: 6607 From: Not too far from Mexico Registered: Nov 2004
If you dont have a CCP, you can carry it loaded in your hip holster.
