I am sure that some of you here have been thru this before, but it is new to me.
http://www.car-on-water.com/
I don't believe it is all they make it out to be. But I am interested in your opinions on it.

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1. Violates the rule that you can't get something for nothing.

2. If getting hydrogen to work as fuel was this easy, why has no major manufacturer done it? Why are companies like BMW and GM still working on fuel cells?

3. If it actually worked, the oil industry would buy it and keep the technology off the market.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: 3. If it actually worked, the oil industry would buy it and keep the technology off the market.

And you know for sure they haven't already?? I hear from one source, that a certain major alreadt has it just about in place and perfected. I believed it enough to go ahead and invest a little $ in that co. A fool and his money are soon parted................

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: 1. Violates the rule that you can't get something for nothing. 2. If getting hydrogen to work as fuel was this easy, why has no major manufacturer done it? Why are companies like BMW and GM still working on fuel cells? 3. If it actually worked, the oil industry would buy it and keep the technology off the market.

The first two I agree on. BUT the 3rd I disagree with you ( I am sure you dont really believe in a conspearcy) but for those that do: I am an ANTI CONSPRACY person. Basically I don't believe in any government conspiracy OR a conspiracy to hide a MULTI BILLION dollar money maker. I just cant see an oil company missing out on making money on "alternative" fuels when the Government puts pressure on them to "clean up there act" or help find alternatives. Just don't have any place in reality.

Why do scams always use the exact same web template? Red fixed border with a bunch of highlighted and bolded text.

That's one of the ways you recognize them as scams, Xanth.

Oh no! Their sale ends tomorrow! I better buy now.

Why do I get the feeling if I checked it tomorrow, the sale would end tuesday?

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: That's one of the ways you recognize them as scams, Xanth.

You would think they'd change it up a bit though. For example, get the WhoIs report of that site, the guy who registered car-on-water.com is from www.thegodzilla.com

And shazam:
http://thegodzilla.com/wate...run-car-on-water.php

So TheGodzilla.com is recommending a product via ClickBank urls, that someone from the TheGodzilla actually runs.

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 04-20-2008).]

Why am I not the least surprised?

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

Don't let the gimmicky name fool you - this is the closest I've seen to practical hydrogen conversion kits.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

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[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: The only way you could make enough H to be usable as a transportation fuel (or any other fuel for that matter) using electricity would be if the electricity was essentially limitless and mostly free. Of course, if electricity was that cheap it would be better to use it directly to charge electric cars since you would lose half the electricity's energy making an equivalent miles of travel's worth of H.

Electricity is that cheap. For instance:

Lets say your average car uses 20hp travelling at 60mph.

That is 15 kilowatts, 15kwhr per hr.

Lets quadruple that to account for engine and hydrogen "charger" losses. (this is a gross overestimate)

60kwh = $6 dollars (typical).... to travel 60 miles. If your typical sedan gets 30mpg, that's the equivalent of $3 per gallon. Well at last check we're at $3.50 and climbing. Electrolysis can/is approaching 80% efficiency. $1.50/gal equivalent is very realistic, IMHO. Power distribution is a problem. Our grid is overstressed as-is. However, your "electric car" replacement is not feasible. Hydrogen can be adapted to any ICE. Storage can be accomplished with metal hydrides. Best of all, it would be a hybrid in the sense that you could keep the original gas tank and swap back and forth depending on which fuel was readily available. Electric cars would require a complete overhaul of the system. Hydrogen cars are a good intermediary to bridge the gap between gas and electric. Hydrogen is just a chemical battery......

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Electricity is that cheap. For instance: Lets say your average car uses 20hp travelling at 60mph. That is 15 kilowatts, 15kwhr per hr. Lets quadruple that to account for engine and hydrogen "charger" losses. (this is a gross overestimate) 60kwh = $6 dollars (typical).... to travel 60 miles. If your typical sedan gets 30mpg, that's the equivalent of $3 per gallon. Well at last check we're at $3.50 and climbing. Electrolysis can/is approaching 80% efficiency. $1.50/gal equivalent is very realistic, IMHO. Power distribution is a problem. Our grid is overstressed as-is. However, your "electric car" replacement is not feasible. Hydrogen can be adapted to any ICE. Storage can be accomplished with metal hydrides. Best of all, it would be a hybrid in the sense that you could keep the original gas tank and swap back and forth depending on which fuel was readily available. Electric cars would require a complete overhaul of the system. Hydrogen cars are a good intermediary to bridge the gap between gas and electric. Hydrogen is just a chemical battery......

That sounds like a feasible hybrid setup, but from the ads I'm reading it sounds like they're using the car's electrical system to generate the hydrogen real time, rather than charging up a system from the power grid. Generating 15kwh on a 12V system would require 1250 amps sustained current.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That sounds like a feasible hybrid setup, but from the ads I'm reading it sounds like they're using the car's electrical system to generate the hydrogen real time, rather than charging up a system from the power grid. Generating 15kwh on a 12V system would require 1250 amps sustained current.

Yeah... Anything that uses the car's electrical system won't work. I was speaking about the "united nuclear" system being practical, not the "water 4 fuel" system.

instead if running completely off of the hydrogen, you can boost your MPG by running a small amount of hydrogen into your intake to force the mixture rich so the computer then trims the injectors back. I am unsure of the combustion temps and the pressures, and how long it could last, but around 20mpg increase highway is average for people who done tests. But it depends on how you run your hydrogen generator I guess

There are any number of ways to recover waste heat from cracking/frac towers, and to re-use that waste heat effeciently. Hydrogen can be cracked from water, but the facility needs to be located in close proximity to endless supply of said water. Hydrogen storage is the biggest hurdle.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn:2. If getting hydrogen to work as fuel was this easy, why has no major manufacturer done it? Why are companies like BMW and GM still working on fuel cells?

Considering there isnt enough platinum in the entire world to replace any significant percentage of the cars on the road this is actually a damn good question.
http://hydrogendiscoveries....tinum-in-fuel-cells/

Solar and renewable biofuels (and hopefully hydrogen fusion) are the end-game. Research into hydrogen needs to be diverted solely into fusion research and leave ideas that you cant put into practice.

quote To make hydrogen using electrolysis loses about half the input energy as mostly waste heat. Any scheme that uses electrolysis to make H is a scam because of that loss. Currently the only way to mass-produce H is by cracking natural gas, that loses about half also unfortunately. The only way you could make enough H to be usable as a transportation fuel (or any other fuel for that matter) using electricity would be if the electricity was essentially limitless and mostly free. Of course, if electricity was that cheap it would be better to use it directly to charge electric cars since you would lose half the electricity's energy making an equivalent miles of travel's worth of H

If you lower the voltage across each plate to 1.86V (the dissociation voltage of water, which is also lowered slightly by a specific molality of potassium hydroxide), you can push efficiency near %100. The only problem is that the yeild rate is poor.

For electrolysis you can have two qualities: cheap, efficient, high production.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 04-21-2008).]

HHO? LOL what the heck this that

two H's, and an O. H2O.

there is absolutely NO way two hydrogens and an oxygen are gonna rearrange themselves
any way other than a polarized molecule ("bent" shape, VSEPR- valence shell electron pair repulsion)

let's see:
-covalent bonding
-electronegativity
and lets not forget about intermolecular forces
-Hydrogen bonding
-Polarity (london dispersion / weak intermolecular / van der waal's)
-dipole-dipole

. . . .

yeah, sure, all these laws of molecular physics can be violated with ELECTROLYSIS

LOL

what's really sad is since this "HHO" came onto the internet a while ago so many have propagated its lies
heck Fox News somewhere even reported it! (not really a suprise, for Fox; reporting Science & not politics incorrectly is just not their usual topic)

but it has patents! well heck the patent office are not scientists. they give a patent to anyone with any hair brained scheme- it doesn't HAVE to work!
and a patent is NOTHING without a lawyer. I wonder how many patents issued by the same office there are right now that infringe on each other.'

/

so anyway,
between hydrogen and ethanol from corn as the next fuel,
man I dunno which is better. hopefully the research will decide and not special interest groups.
i sure do like corn though and so do a lot of our livestock. I wonder if we have enough corn to fuel our cars too

hydrogen can be used pretty easily with a rotary engine, so that gets my vote
but if the engineers cant find a way to industrialize hydrogen production effectively enough, then ethyl alcohol it is!
we already have the gas stations for it (no 'gas' gas stations with gas pipelines for hydrogen)

[This message has been edited by Kuta (edited 04-21-2008).]

quote between hydrogen and ethanol from corn as the next fuel, man I dunno which is better. hopefully the research will decide and not special interest groups. i sure do like corn though and so do a lot of our livestock. I wonder if we have enough corn to fuel our cars too hydrogen can be used pretty easily with a rotary engine, so that gets my vote but if the engineers cant find a way to industrialize hydrogen production effectively enough, then ethyl alcohol it is! we already have the gas stations for it (no 'gas' gas stations with gas pipelines for hydrogen)

Hydrogen (right now) has far too many hurdles to overcome to be anywhere close to viable, nevermind closed-loop on a global production scale. The platinum problem, hydrogen embrittlement, storage, production, et cetera. How does hydrogen work well with a rotary as opposed to a piston engine?

Anyway, the reason that we are using corn in the first place is because of special interest groups that like government money. Special interest groups are the ones that represent the corn industry (which makes America the world's #1 corn producer) and the ones that have conned Congress into believing that corn was the answer when it is extremely expensive in both dollars, water, and energy to produce the ethanol.

RandomTask is probably going to chime in with something about how ethanol plants use the waste parts (he builds them for a living) or some other nonesense. Great. Mulch it up and throw it back into the fields. There are many other ways to produce ethanol that dont require insane amounts of fertilizer and that yeild much more ethanol. Sugar beets, potatoes, and sugar cane are three I can name off the bat that are easy to grow, require little fertilizer and pesticides (compared to corn), and all yield much more ethanol per volume than corn. Then again, once we get the cellulose ethanol problem cracked, the final answer to which fuel the next energy generation will be using and what crop it will be using (barring special interests) will be obvious.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 04-21-2008).]

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=tdcpub001

It's sad that these guys CONSTANTLY attempt to make you think you can get a GIGANTIC increase in MPG. If you go to Google or YouTube or Ebay and put in HHO, you'll find that the average is usually LESS than 50%. HOWEVER, if it works I'D ACCEPT 50% ANY DAY! Heck, at today's price--I'd accept 25%!!

The guy in the link above says he has a group every Saturday that gets together to show and discuss these products. Is this the beginning of a GIANT CONSPIRACY? Dunno. But I'd sure like to find out. I have asked this question in another link but...,.

Does anyone have EXPERIENCE (not theory) with the HHO generator?

We all know that IN THEORY the bumble bee can't fly...but he doesn't know it, so he flies. I know the THEORY that you can't get something for nothing. SOMEWHERE you gotta get SOMETHING to get SOMETHING ELSE. But...if you check the above sources, DOZENS of people are not only MAKING these things but USING THEM!! One guy is even running NO gas in his lawnmower. I'd be hard pressed to believe the energy is coming out of the air.

So---ANY EXPERIENCE?

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John

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: Does anyone have EXPERIENCE (not theory) with the HHO generator? We all know that IN THEORY the bumble bee can't fly...but he doesn't know it, so he flies. I know the THEORY that you can't get something for nothing. SOMEWHERE you gotta get SOMETHING to get SOMETHING ELSE. But...if you check the above sources, DOZENS of people are not only MAKING these things but USING THEM!! One guy is even running NO gas in his lawnmower. I'd be hard pressed to believe the energy is coming out of the air. So---ANY EXPERIENCE?

Again, to keep this in one thread.

I don't have any experience with this specific equipment. But I've done a lot of fooling with water electrolysis. You may not like what I have to say, but I'm going to say it. You can't fool thermodynamics. No process is 100% efficient or reversible. A professor in Russia is working on water electrolysis but his details are sketchy at best. That being said, there is always more to discover about the way the world works, but this is a pretty well understood process.

Hydrogen is not an efficient energy storage mechanism for surface transportation. A litre of gasoline contains more hydrogen by mass than a litre of liquid hydrogen (at reasonable temperatures and pressures, which is still pretty severe when you're talking about liquid hydrogen). Either someone is not being honest, or there's some other process that is undiscovered going on here. Occam's razor says it's the former not the latter.

Maybe if you produce the power from some other source lets say Solar. to Make the hydrogen then this could help with mpg. But if you do this why not build a hybrid that powers the eletric motor via solar panels.

quote Originally posted by linuxpowered88: Maybe if you produce the power from some other source lets say Solar. to Make the hydrogen then this could help with mpg. But if you do this why not build a hybrid that powers the eletric motor via solar panels.

Exactly. Using the hydrogen as an intermediary is inefficient at best.

quote Originally posted by AntiKev: Exactly. Using the hydrogen as an intermediary is inefficient at best.

Agreed. There is no point in converting your car to run on any significant amount of hydrogen because of embrittlement issues. In the end, its more efficient to use straight solar which comes in either electricity from steam, direct DC power, or a biolfuel. (think about that one for a second)

Now, water induction, on the other hand, is known to give you better gas milage, fuel economy, and a small power boost, and has no negatives.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: 2. If getting hydrogen to work as fuel was this easy, why has no major manufacturer done it? Why are companies like BMW and GM still working on fuel

it makes more money.

quote Originally posted by AJ7: it makes more money.

Take the tin foil off, step away from the computer and take the coat hangers off of your ceiling. They are not out to get you.

How about, it's readily available, it's relatively cheap, it's storable, safe, and has a high energy density.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Oh no! Their sale ends tomorrow! I better buy now. Why do I get the feeling if I checked it tomorrow, the sale would end tuesday?

I was right!

A Regular $297 Value!
(click here to see our sale price)
This sale expires on April 22nd, 2008!

If this works, it would seem more likely to help gas burn more completely (fewer unburned hydrocarbons left over) than to add energy to the system. It would be more like adding pure O2 to an intake than additional fuel. So the fuel savings this system "adds" would be burning fuel that would normally leave the combustion chamber unburned and not so much any power added by the HHO.

The sites "limited time sale" doesn't help its credibility. I'd like to see some independant reports on the system.

quote Originally posted by Sjuice: If this works, it would seem more likely to help gas burn more completely (fewer unburned hydrocarbons left over) than to add energy to the system. It would be more like adding pure O2 to an intake than additional fuel. So the fuel savings this system "adds" would be burning fuel that would normally leave the combustion chamber unburned and not so much any power added by the HHO. The sites "limited time sale" doesn't help its credibility. I'd like to see some independant reports on the system.

Ill see what I can do to make one myself if you want. I can use Electrolysis on a mix of Baking Soda and Water (not PURE water, but the Baking Soda, being a base, turns the water into an electrolyte) and T it into my Ford Ranger's Vacuum ports on the throttle body, so the electrolysis chamber is in constant vacuum, with a water catch in the middle of the hose so I dont go sucking water into my combustion chamber. We can see if the theory holds water... No pun intended

EDIT:

Found this on Youtube:

Pay CLOSE attention to the idiocy... Particularly at 1:31... H2O... 2 small Hydrogens to one Oxygen, right? Well... Watch and laugh at what they put...

Doesnt help their claim much! HHO and H2O would be the same thing, no, if you think about it? 2 hydrogen, one oxygen, unless its Hydrogen on Hydrogen on Oxygen, instead of 2 Hydrogen on one Oxygen

[This message has been edited by Racing_Master (edited 04-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Racing_Master: Doesnt help their claim much! HHO and H2O would be the same thing, no, if you think about it? 2 hydrogen, one oxygen, unless its Hydrogen on Hydrogen on Oxygen, instead of 2 Hydrogen on one Oxygen

Which is physically impossible. Each hydrogen only has one bond site (one unpaired electron in the outer shell) unless there's some covalent structure that we don't know about. So they're each going to bond to one site on the oxygen. HHO is a crock thought up by people with no education in the sciences (and I wonder if they have any education at all beyond how to be scam artists).

As said above, this may just be another way to lean out the mixture in the cylinders, which will actually make the engine run hotter.

Dennis Klein is the person who is pushing the HHO gas.
BTW ~ HHO is Oxyhydrogen.

The HHO gas ADDED to a gasoline engine (I.E. Hybrid of gas and HHO) does increase MPG. The thing is HHO gas requires more energy usage to make. It is not as efficient as gasoline.
You can run an engine on straight HHO but you output power is less. Another negative is the system requires more standard maintenance. Finally it requires straight water, You cannot mix anything in the water or the HHO output is reduced. Hence those of us that live in the north will have a freezing issue.

The major car manufacturers will not use HHO on typical production cars because of the increased maintenance and the freezing issues. GM does make a Hummer for military use that has an HHO system designed by Mr. Klein. Last I heard Hummer was still testing it out.

So to add to the debate water cand be used to make HHO gas and you can use it for fuel, But it has problems as with any alternative fuel system.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

I'm always amazed at their claim that a "259 degree" HHO welding flame can somehow produce temperatures up to "10,000 degrees" in the material being welded. (They claim that it can even "subluminate" tungsten!)

We don't just violate the second law of thermodynamics, we violate all of them!

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: We don't just violate the second law of thermodynamics, we violate all of them!

Equal opportunity idiots.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan:they seem so hell-bent on getting ripped off anyway. ... When you guys get done with the HHO thingie I got some electric superchargers, fuel line magnets, gas pills, and Tornados to sell ya.

Do you offer stock?

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-05-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: I'm always amazed at their claim that a "259 degree" HHO welding flame can somehow produce temperatures up to "10,000 degrees" in the material being welded. (They claim that it can even "subluminate" tungsten!) We don't just violate the second law of thermodynamics, we violate all of them!

They are mistaking the burning of brown's gas (H2 + O + water vapor) and real hydrogen welding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...mic_hydrogen_welding

quote [QUOTE]Originally posted by AntiKev: Which is physically impossible. Each hydrogen only has one bond site (one unpaired electron in the outer shell) unless there's some covalent structure that we don't know about. So they're each going to bond to one site on the oxygen. HHO is a crock thought up by people with no education in the sciences (and I wonder if they have any education at all beyond how to be scam artists). As said above, this may just be another way to lean out the mixture in the cylinders, which will actually make the engine run hotter.

[/quote]

If the engine runs with a carb or mechanical fuel injection, sure. But an O2 sensor is going to pick up on any extra oxygen you put into it.