University of Delaware Requires Students to Undergo Ideological Reeducation October 30, 2007
FIRE Press Release
NEWARK, Del., October 30, 2007—The University of Delaware subjects students in its residence halls to a shocking program of ideological reeducation that is referred to in the university’s own materials as a “treatment” for students’ incorrect attitudes and beliefs. The Orwellian program requires the approximately 7,000 students in Delaware’s residence halls to adopt highly specific university-approved views on issues ranging from politics to race, sexuality, sociology, moral philosophy, and environmentalism. The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) is calling for the total dismantling of the program, which is a flagrant violation of students’ rights to freedom of conscience and freedom from compelled speech.
“The University of Delaware’s residence life education program is a grave intrusion into students’ private beliefs,” FIRE President Greg Lukianoff said. “The university has decided that it is not enough to expose its students to the values it considers important; instead, it must coerce its students into accepting those values as their own. At a public university like Delaware, this is both unconscionable and unconstitutional.”
The university’s views are forced on students through a comprehensive manipulation of the residence hall environment, from mandatory training sessions to “sustainability” door decorations. Students living in the university’s eight housing complexes are required to attend training sessions, floor meetings, and one-on-one meetings with their Resident Assistants (RAs). The RAs who facilitate these meetings have received their own intensive training from the university, including a “diversity facilitation training” session at which RAs were taught, among other things, that “[a] racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the United States, regardless of class, gender, religion, culture or sexuality.”
The university suggests that at one-on-one sessions with students, RAs should ask intrusive personal questions such as “When did you discover your sexual identity?” Students who express discomfort with this type of questioning often meet with disapproval from their RAs, who write reports on these one-on-one sessions and deliver these reports to their superiors. One student identified in a write-up as an RA’s “worst” one-on-one session was a young woman who stated that she was tired of having “diversity shoved down her throat.”
According to the program’s materials, the goal of the residence life education program is for students in the university’s residence halls to achieve certain “competencies” that the university has decreed its students must develop in order to achieve the overall educational goal of “citizenship.” These competencies include: “Students will recognize that systemic oppression exists in our society,” “Students will recognize the benefits of dismantling systems of oppression,” and “Students will be able to utilize their knowledge of sustainability to change their daily habits and consumer mentality.”
At various points in the program, students are also pressured or even required to take actions that outwardly indicate their agreement with the university’s ideology, regardless of their personal beliefs. Such actions include displaying specific door decorations, committing to reduce their ecological footprint by at least 20%, taking action by advocating for an “oppressed” social group, and taking action by advocating for a “sustainable world.”
In the Office of Residence Life’s internal materials, these programs are described using the harrowing language of ideological reeducation. In documents relating to the assessment of student learning, for example, the residence hall lesson plans are referred to as “treatments.”
In a letter sent yesterday to University of Delaware President Patrick Harker, FIRE pointed out the stark contradiction between the residence life education program and the values of a free society. FIRE’s letter to President Harker also underscored the University of Delaware’s legal obligation to abide by the First Amendment. FIRE reminded Harker of the Supreme Court’s decision in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943), a case decided during World War II that remains the law of the land. Justice Robert H. Jackson, writing for the Court, declared, “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”
“The fact that the university views its students as patients in need of treatment for some sort of moral sickness betrays a total lack of respect not only for students’ basic rights, but for students themselves,” Lukianoff said. “The University of Delaware has both a legal and a moral obligation to immediately dismantle this program, and FIRE will not rest until it has.”
FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation that unites civil rights and civil liberties leaders, scholars, journalists, and public intellectuals across the political and ideological spectrum on behalf of individual rights, due process rights, freedom of expression, and rights of conscience on our campuses. FIRE would like to thank the Delaware Association of Scholars (DAS) for its invaluable assistance in this case. FIRE’s efforts to preserve liberty at the University of Delaware and elsewhere can be seen by visiting www.thefire.org.
Today, the President of University of Delaware declared in a posted statement that the program has been halted and will be reviewed.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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09:37 AM
PFF
System Bot
Old Lar Member
Posts: 13798 From: Palm Bay, Florida Registered: Nov 1999
The University of Delaware strives for an environment in which all people feel welcome to learn, and which supports intellectual curiosity, critical thinking, free inquiry and respect for the views and values of an increasingly diverse population. The University is committed to the education of students as citizens, scholars and professionals and their preparation to contribute creatively and with integrity to a global society. The purpose of the residence life educational program is to support these commitments.
While I believe that recent press accounts misrepresent the purpose of the residential life program at the University of Delaware, there are questions about its practices that must be addressed and there are reasons for concern that the actual purpose is not being fulfilled. It is not feasible to evaluate these issues without a full and broad-based review.
Upon the recommendation of Vice President for Student Life Michael Gilbert and Director of Residence Life Kathleen Kerr, I have directed that the program be stopped immediately. No further activities under the current framework will be conducted.
Vice President Gilbert will work with the University Faculty Senate and others to determine the proper means by which residence life programs may support the intellectual, cultural and ethical development of our students.
John, thanks for posting that, you are always on the ball. But thought I had that covered with my last statement of the orginal posting.
The problem I see is that the stated purpose of the program and the President's statement don't really line up and represent the same things. I tried doing more research on the program and am not getting very far. The U. of Del. isn't exactly putting out much information on this.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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10:18 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
After I read your post and the statement from FIRE, I wondered just what the President said/did about the policy. That was easy to find. I then went through the website looking for what the program actually was (not to doubt FIRE, but let's face it, everyone slants things they way they want others to see it). I found NOTHING. They have even removed the page that tells what their "FYE" (First Year Experience) required programs are and that is where I suspect any information on this was located.
As a result of my research, I'm certainly aware of their refrigerator and microwave policy now, though. That seems to be a big issue with them.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
John, thanks for posting that, you are always on the ball. But thought I had that covered with my last statement of the orginal posting.
The problem I see is that the stated purpose of the program and the President's statement don't really line up and represent the same things. I tried doing more research on the program and am not getting very far. The U. of Del. isn't exactly putting out much information on this.
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10:22 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
all schools do this to one degree or another but, this sure does sound like brainwashing but, I suppose as long as you know going in, whats the problem? any intense training does the same thing. I'm sure eveyone whose gone thru the military knows what I am saying.
this happens everywhere, they are just being more upfront about it. just look at the folk who get all in a uproar about the "pledge of allegiance". thats years of brainwashing talking there.
most people have VERY VERY wasteful lifestyle/ideologies. what is the problem with trying make a more responsible human? everyone crys about "people today" and when someone steps up - they cry brainwashing.
EVERYONE is brainwashed. even those of you with dirty minds
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10:27 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
After I read your post and the statement from FIRE, I wondered just what the President said/did about the policy. That was easy to find. I then went through the website looking for what the program actually was (not to doubt FIRE, but let's face it, everyone slants things they way they want others to see it). I found NOTHING. They have even removed the page that tells what their "FYE" (First Year Experience) required programs are and that is where I suspect any information on this was located.
As a result of my research, I'm certainly aware of their refrigerator and microwave policy now, though. That seems to be a big issue with them.
John Stricker
Same results here. By the way, they don't allow "kegerators".
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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10:28 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
My son has been in residence halls at Kansas State University and Fort Hays State University. Other than meetings for new residents explaining the hall rules, there was NOTHING like this as of a couple of years ago.
The thing that I was looking to find out was, is(was) the program a mandatory condition of new residency or was it something that was optional? Optional, fine. Let people decide for themselves. Mandatory where (from the original quote)"One student identified in a write-up as an RA’s “worst” one-on-one session" and these "write-ups" are placed in a student's file? No, that's WAY out of line IMO.
Most people do have wasteful lifestyles. More to the point, they KNOW they have wasteful lifestyles. I don't think having written reports about one on one sessions are going to help the situation any, do you?
When I was in college (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth) our first year a friend and I were going to live off campus. We were informed that we could either commute from home, live with a blood relative, or failing those two options, MUST live in college housing so that we could "experience fully" the college life. I sat across the desk from the dean of students and told him to tear up my application and kiss my butt, because I was NOT going to live on campus the first year. I did commute for the first 3 months until the farm work was caught up, then rented an apartment off campus for the rest of the year. I made sure he knew about it and the University backed down.
What's the quote? "for evil to triumph all that need happen is good men remain silent" Nobody should be silent about indoctrination and "re-education", in their words, programs, and I don't care if those are liberal OR conservative ideas.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
all schools do this to one degree or another but, this sure does sound like brainwashing but, I suppose as long as you know going in, whats the problem? any intense training does the same thing. I'm sure eveyone whose gone thru the military knows what I am saying.
this happens everywhere, they are just being more upfront about it. just look at the folk who get all in a uproar about the "pledge of allegiance". thats years of brainwashing talking there.
most people have VERY VERY wasteful lifestyle/ideologies. what is the problem with trying make a more responsible human? everyone crys about "people today" and when someone steps up - they cry brainwashing.
EVERYONE is brainwashed. even those of you with dirty minds
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10:55 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Pyrthian: all schools do this to one degree or another but, this sure does sound like brainwashing but, I suppose as long as you know going in, whats the problem? any intense training does the same thing. I'm sure eveyone whose gone thru the military knows what I am saying.
this happens everywhere, they are just being more upfront about it. just look at the folk who get all in a uproar about the "pledge of allegiance". thats years of brainwashing talking there.
most people have VERY VERY wasteful lifestyle/ideologies. what is the problem with trying make a more responsible human? everyone crys about "people today" and when someone steps up - they cry brainwashing.
EVERYONE is brainwashed. even those of you with dirty minds
Though college was some time back for me, I do not recall any such indoctrination, other than this is how stuff works on Campus type things, I worked, went to school and slept. This was considerably after the Ice Age and John's experience. Though there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of information about Univ. of Delaware program available, I already know that I would not pay for one of my children to attend such a PC institution. Indoctrination, yeah right.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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11:08 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
What's the quote? "for evil to triumph all that need happen is good men remain silent" Nobody should be silent about indoctrination and "re-education", in their words, programs, and I don't care if those are liberal OR conservative ideas.
I think that is what they are to do - is NOT remain silent. I too am VERY against brainwashing. but, unfortunatly - everyone is brainwashed already. I see this more as "un-brainwashing". getting all the MTV scraped off the brain cells.
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11:13 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Pyrthian: I think that is what they are to do - is NOT remain silent. I too am VERY against brainwashing. but, unfortunatly - everyone is brainwashed already. I see this more as "un-brainwashing". getting all the MTV scraped off the brain cells.
If you consider socialization to be brain washing then yes, you are 100% correct. I'll also agree that military training used to be a tear them down and build the recruits back into what the military wants them to be to a certain extent. We can't have our Marines questioning orders to take that hill you know. I also agree that remaining silent on such issues will mean these kind of programs will spread. It is the same thing but in reverse that made organizations like the KKK what they were at one time. This program appears to be an attempt to socialize and re-educate freshmen students to see the world the way the Univ. of Del. wants them to see it. That my friend is a load of crap. Whether I agree with them and their attitudes, I can't force them to change it. If that were true, then there would be several members of this forum touting totally different philosophies.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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12:40 PM
PFF
System Bot
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
not familear with the school. is it a high end school? just wondering what kind of person the average student might be? do they put out people who end up in high places? are they children of people in high places?
anyways - it seems if it is known that they will turn the students "green", and they still go - I guess it all ok?
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12:54 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Isn't a college just selling a product? The students are the consumers? Should'nt they be able to pick the product they (thier parents have) purchase(d)?
What exactly are you paying for, in college? Access to the information of your choice, or their choice?
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01:45 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Boondawg: Isn't a college just selling a product? The students are the consumers? Should'nt they be able to pick the product they (thier parents have) purchase(d)?
What exactly are you paying for, in college? Access to the information of your choice, or their choice?
You'd think that was the case, wouldn't you. I actually had a similar conversation with my alum association on this recently. I asked them to take me off of their mailing list. They seem to always want my money for some reason. For some reason, they wanted an explanation. Anyway, I explained it to them this way: We had a business relationship, I payed the university to provide with a learning opportunity, they provided that opportunity, I took advantage of it and got a diploma. Our contract is over, save the cost of mailing me the documents and the cost of stamps, the land fill space your documents use and take me off your list and leave me alone. They got the message.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
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02:20 PM
litespd Member
Posts: 8128 From: No where you want to be Registered: Aug 99
My son's girlfriend is a University of Delaware graduate....alumnus....alumni....whatever. She was also an RA....Resident Advisor, if I recall right. As such, she should have been aware of this. I'll have to send her the text, and see what she has to say about it.
[This message has been edited by litespd (edited 11-02-2007).]
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02:28 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
My son's girlfriend is a University of Delaware graduate....alumnus....alumni....whatever. She was also an RA....Resident Advisor, if I recall right. As such, she should have been aware of this. I'll have to send her the text, and see what she has to say about it.
Cool, a possible source.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
I currently live in the dorms and did all last year too, here at Michigan Tech. First year students are required to live in the dorms, unless they live with family locally. The only reason I'm still in the dorms is my Fiero cannot get around this area in the winter. Think massive hills and three feet of snow.
First year students here are required to go through some special training thing (I didn't because I'm a transfer student), but nothing like the PC bullshit mentioned above. Although I wouldn't be suprised to see them try. How the hell Michigan Tech got a reputation as a good school is beyond me, must have been a LONG time ago.
quote
Originally posted by Blackrams: Same results here. By the way, they don't allow "kegerators".
They don't allow them here, either
quote
Kegs of any size or any common source of alcoholic beverages (over one gallon) are not permitted on campus or at any University-sponsored event, except when a valid liquor license is obtained
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02:43 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by RWDPLZ: First year students here are required to go through some special training thing (I didn't because I'm a transfer student), but nothing like the PC bullshit mentioned above. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see them try. [QUOTE] Kegs of any size or any common source of alcoholic beverages (over one gallon) are not permitted on campus or at any University-sponsored event, except when a valid liquor license is obtained
My guess is that this particular University has an extremely liberal or left wing administration and is pushing it's agenda but that is all based on supposition, it maybe just an east coast thing, who knows. But, it isn't right and now that it has come to the light of day, will be addressed.
Sorry about the Keg thing at your school but, as we parents say, it's better for you this way.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-02-2007).]
all schools do this to one degree or another but, this sure does sound like brainwashing but, I suppose as long as you know going in, whats the problem? any intense training does the same thing. I'm sure eveyone whose gone thru the military knows what I am saying.
this happens everywhere, they are just being more upfront about it. just look at the folk who get all in a uproar about the "pledge of allegiance". thats years of brainwashing talking there.
most people have VERY VERY wasteful lifestyle/ideologies. what is the problem with trying make a more responsible human? everyone crys about "people today" and when someone steps up - they cry brainwashing.
EVERYONE is brainwashed. even those of you with dirty minds
Having lived in the worst dorm on campus for two years, we had nothing of the sort. Nothing about alcohol abuse (something my school is notorious for) nor substance abuse or possession, and for damned sure not asking about your sexual orientation.
The problem is that the program had nil to do with making you to be a more responsible person. Even if it were so, who is to determine what the responsibilities of a person should be? And what right should they have to enquire about your private life and thoughts, especially if its a public and government funded school?
I love this place LOL So a racist is a white person huh
quote
Originally posted by blackrams: ...a “diversity facilitation training” session at which RAs were taught, among other things, that “[a] racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the United States, regardless of class, gender, religion, culture or sexuality.”
LOL Awsome . So i am a racist, i mean i am white so that means I must be. Well i guess i better dig out my jack boots, you know the ones with the hobbnails in the heal. I love being labeled isn't it fun. I wonder how this comment will be "explained" away.
------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
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04:19 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
I love this place LOL So a racist is a white person huh
LOL Awsome . So i am a racist, i mean i am white so that means I must be. Well i guess i better dig out my jack boots, you know the ones with the hobbnails in the heal. I love being labeled isn't it fun. I wonder how this comment will be "explained" away.
It will not be explained away. Just like everyone posting in this thread have ignored what the post is about. Its not about college "policy" or "brainwashing". It is RACISM against whites. PERIOD!! I love how when its the other way around it gets ignored.
Got Sheep?
------------------ The TRUTH is called HATE, by those who HATE the TRUTH.
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06:09 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33143 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by 88GT5.0KILLER: It will not be explained away. Just like everyone posting in this thread have ignored what the post is about. Its not about college "policy" or "brainwashing". It is RACISM against whites. PERIOD!! I love how when its the other way around it gets ignored. Got Sheep?
I guess you can take whatever stance on this you choose to but I see a lot more issues than just racism or reverse-racism. I'm not denying that it may have been addressed and probably not in a manner that you would agree with but, RACISM was not the only issue being focused on. This was taken directly from FIRE's website:
Victory at University of Delaware University President Ends Mandatory Ideological Reeducation Program November 2, 2007
FIRE Press Release
NEWARK, Del., November 2, 2007—After an intense campaign led by the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), the University of Delaware has dropped an ideological reeducation program that was referred to in the university’s own materials as a “treatment” for students’ incorrect attitudes and beliefs. The program’s stated goal was for the approximately 7,000 students in Delaware’s residence halls to adopt highly specific university-approved views on politics, race, sexuality, sociology, moral philosophy, and environmentalism. Following FIRE’s campaign, which called the attention of the national media and the blogosphere to the Orwellian program, university President Patrick Harker terminated the program, effective immediately.
“FIRE applauds President Harker for recognizing the chilling nature of this program and ending it,” FIRE President Greg Lukianoff said. “Under the First Amendment, state institutions have no right to impose mandatory ideological training on their students. We are thrilled that this unconscionable and invasive program is gone, but we will be keeping an eye on the University of Delaware to make sure future programs respect the individual right of conscience of its students.”
Under the program, students were required to attend training sessions, floor meetings, and “one-on-one” meetings with their Resident Assistants (RAs). The university also instructed RAs to ask intrusive personal questions during one-on-one sessions, including “When did you discover your sexual identity?” A student who responded, “That is none of your damn business,” was, according to the university’s own materials, written up—along with the student’s name and room number—as having one of the “wors[t] one-on-one” sessions.
The program’s materials stated that the goal of the residence life education program was for students in the university’s residence halls to achieve certain “competencies” that the university decreed its students must develop in order to achieve the overall educational goal of “citizenship.” These “competencies” included: “Students will recognize that systemic oppression exists in our society,” “Students will recognize the benefits of dismantling systems of oppression,” and “Students will be able to utilize their knowledge of sustainability to change their daily habits and consumer mentality.” And in the Office of Residence Life’s internal materials, the program was described using the harrowing language of ideological reeducation, including referring to the program as “treatment” and defining “learning” as “specific attitudinal or behavioral changes.”
Following FIRE’s initial press release, the university’s administration first chose to defend its invasive and unconstitutional residence life education program. However, in a statement released late yesterday, President Harker stated, “I have directed that the program be stopped immediately. No further activities under the current framework will be conducted.” Harker also called for a “full and broad-based review” of the program’s practices and purposes.
While FIRE commends Harker’s decision, concerns remain about some aspects of life in the residence halls. For example, FIRE would like to know if RAs are still required to immediately report “[a]ny instance that is perceived by those involved as being racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, or otherwise oppressive.”
The assistance of the Delaware Association of Scholars was critical in the effort to eliminate the program, as was the willingness of Delaware students and RAs to attest to their experiences under this “treatment” program. The case also drew vast attention from the blogosphere, dramatically increasing the pressure on the university to either justify or abandon its thought reform program.
“Universities often cannot defend in public what they try to do in private, and the situation at Delaware was no exception,” Lukianoff said. “While we are pleased that this program is over, it is stunning that it ever existed at a public university in the United States. FIRE will continue to monitor the situation at Delaware and to fight against other ideological reeducation programs at schools across the nation.”
FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation that unites civil rights and civil liberties leaders, scholars, journalists, and public intellectuals across the political and ideological spectrum on behalf of individual rights, due process rights, freedom of expression, and rights of conscience on our campuses. FIRE’s efforts to preserve liberty at the University of Delaware and elsewhere can be seen by visiting www.thefire.org.
CONTACT: Greg Lukianoff, President, FIRE: 215-717-3473; greg_lukianoff@thefire.org Samantha Harris, Director of Legal and Public Advocacy, FIRE: 215-717-3473; samantha@thefire.org Patrick Harker, President, University of Delaware: 302-831-2111; president@udel.edu Kathleen G. Kerr, Director of Residence Life, University of Delaware: 302-831-1201; kkerr@udel.edu
If I may re-iterate, these were some of the issues being raised.
While FIRE commends Harker’s decision, concerns remain about some aspects of life in the residence halls. For example, FIRE would like to know if RAs are still required to immediately report “[a]ny instance that is perceived by those involved as being racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, or otherwise oppressive.”
The assistance of the Delaware Association of Scholars was critical in the effort to eliminate the program, as was the willingness of Delaware students and RAs to attest to their experiences under this “treatment” program. The case also drew vast attention from the blogosphere, dramatically increasing the pressure on the university to either justify or abandon its thought reform program.
The presence of such a program is at least dismaying and most surely against everything our forefathers have fought for. ------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-02-2007).]
Originally posted by User00013170: Time to find another school, and demand a full refund.
Precisely the point. I'm in great hopes that liberal colleges and universities lose students thus dollars over stuff like this. Idealogical Re-Education my @$$. Our values and attitudes may and do change as we go through life. I'm sure some of our more sour members weren't always the jerks they are now but, that is their option and not within the perview of any college or univeristy to ensure their students see things the way the institution wants them to.
------------------ Ron
Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-03-2007).]